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  1. #1
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    Blame the Germans! (Quick Eurobike report)

    Trek booth at Eurobike : room for a Velodrome and a football pitch, next to it. Lots of Treks that all eemed to be the same bike. Couple of Fisher Cakes. That's it.

    They think 29"er don't sell at all, no worthy bringing them to the show. I wonder if Trek Germany ever heard of the Chicken & Egg thing. Gary confirmed to me what we all were feeling : Fisher's 29"ers are booming in the US, and now have the Trek President's blessing (he found to be selling them, and quickly).

    Lance didn't show, but Trek offered the public a 10 sq feet 7x TdF cake anyway. Lemon, of course...

    Some more positive news from the UK. Pace has a dead-sexy newrigid fork. Short, of course. Ti rather than Alu, again with carbon, lighter still. I stood there with 2 other 6'4"+ guys. They could have sold three right there and then, we were ready to pull creditcards, but it will be short. They admitted that their argument that they would not sell enough is hardly valid, after the way they've been pestered for a full lenth 29" rigid fork. "Maybe we should look at that again". Fingers crossed!
    Bontrager had "a" switchblade proto there, but nothing world0conquering yet. It seemed overly burly.

    NoTubes will offer an in-house developped 26x2.0 Vel Crow tire, 400g and change. A 29" version too, 29x2.0, 500g and change. The 29" will get 35% stronger beads (more treads, simple)to prevent bead stretch. Kenda will be making them. Road skinnies on their way to, bu still very much in developement.
    The Vel Crow looks to silence our wishes for a race-specific tire. Very low (sub-mm?) "clubs" shapes knobs. Smooth bead, Stan explained that the ones that seem to fold in your hands are the bad ones that break (Bontrager, WTB, etc)
    I guess 29" tires will have to be a bit heavier than the 10% extra voer 26" I calculated before, and Stan will be the first to come with a product that woks. It looks very promising. He expects to find the 29" proto's in when he returns from Europe, so the process is going. Please don't bother him about it yet, when they're done, we'll know. and I already tried the "do you need any tire testers" thing, he has pro's for that. Buggers.

    VooDoo Aizan looks hot. Too bad I missed out on meeting John Benson who posts on here. Come to think of it, I missed out on many folks. Good thing Brett (2melow) was right at the main entrance with his Ultimate Repair Stands. He's my offcial new socks sponsor for the rest of this season. Thanks Brett!

    Kenda had a 29x2.2 Karma in the catalogue. The lady insisted that the menstionned weight of 505g +-25g (may have been 520g) as a confirmed weight. I'd be surprised. Karma looks like a very nice tire, but I only got to see 26x1.95 and 2.00. Should in any case be faster than anything we have right now.

    Tufo now makes 650c XC2 tubulars. At first glance a potent tread design. Reynolds has a wiiiide 650c (24mm?) carbon tubular rim, 280g. I wonder, why didn't devolop on this around 1991? Gary told be he had some similar tubs done by Vittoria in those days.
    But what's with the 650c? THE toold to keep off the 700c competition? The speed is not in the "c", folks! I'd love to try a similar setup in 29", but of course there's zero demand for such things.

    Pugsley was big. Bigger than I expected. Better. Fun to ride. Surprisingly fast @ 20psi. we all need one. I'll soon open up a design@build competition based on the Surly Endomorph tire. Lots of cool stuff to be made around that.
    Another new sport Nick Sande came up with the the Pugs makes possible : creek climbing. Imagine that!

    Kona had a catalogue showing the Unit 2-9 frame, and that it comes in 16-18-20 sizes. Geometry sheet also lists a 22", with 73/71 angles and 25" eff. top tube, if I recall correctly. Let's hope they get the "no demand" thing sorted out soon enough :-) Having the 22" size listed once, at least gives us some hope. I bet it'll be good for half their sales (so, doubling sales).

    WTB hadn't heard about the rumor of a Weirwolf 29". They had heard one about a (forgot name) other tire, which in 29" looks pretty wide, 58mm, with a tread that's like a cross of the Maxxis Larsen TT, the Schwalbe Fast Fred, all in a spicy WTB sauce. People seem to like this to me unnamed WTB tire a lot, and it did look something I'd want one size bigger for sure.
    Also, WTB showed a black ano DirtDrop. Now with 31.8 clamp. Yes, it back, and the person agreed with me it was overdue :-)

    The German distributor for Kris Holm showed a 36"er. Looks a bit like the Coker Monster Cruisers. New 36x2.25 tire, like a slick with only deep longitudinal groves that go all around. The bike rolled like mad over the show floor. I never saw or rode a 36"er in real before, and this again brought up my dream to build an MTB frame for those wheels. It will be huge, get stuck on some singletrack, but totally fly on sandy fireroad type rides/races.
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  2. #2
    what a joke
    Reputation: ozlongboarder's Avatar
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    Good work with that report Clox. Silly question I know....... but any pics?
    blah blah blah

  3. #3
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    Whahahaha!

    No cam in my possession. My buds may have shot some, even some 29" stuff. It will most likely feature one of us jolly dutch giants in extremely casual outfits bugging cycling legends on their stuff.

    When I click "post", I'll blow my cover, that I'm actually still awake right now. Must have been the hour-plus bike ride home from my drop point, with a big backpack (I don't recommend it).

  4. #4
    giddy up!
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    Huh...31.8 on the new dirt drop?

    I'm having a hard time making sense of that...seems lke they're shooting themselves in the foot with this one. Most bikes that have a proper dirt drop setup need at least 15 degrees of rise in the stem.....how many manufacturers are making higher rise 31.8 stems?

    Strange.

    B
    www.thepathbikeshop.com

  5. #5
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkey
    Huh...31.8 on the new dirt drop?

    I'm having a hard time making sense of that...seems lke they're shooting themselves in the foot with this one. Most bikes that have a proper dirt drop setup need at least 15 degrees of rise in the stem.....how many manufacturers are making higher rise 31.8 stems?

    Strange.

    B
    None (maybe a Ritchey adjustable). Brant was thinking about doing the Midge in 31.8 but we talked him out of it because of the stem rise non-availability.

    Easier to find a 25.4 stem that will work on a road bike than 31.8 that would work on a mtb with drops.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  6. #6
    Cassoulet forever !
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    Nice news on stan side !
    Let's see what the real with of this tires gonna be !

    Did he told you if he gonna offer his aluminium disks in 180mm ?


    Come on cloxxky, be the first to build a 36"er and to show it to the world !!!
    Frenchspeaking 29"ers community site http://VingtNeuf.org

  7. #7
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    I'll build the first 36" mtb if someone builds me a free (sponsored) frame, builds proper wheels, and supplies the fork these guys used. No bike budget for me right now!
    And the Surly Pugsley is a higher-priority bike for me to build up now anyway. Cheaper also. The custom 36" frame and appropriate wide-spaced-flange hubs pklus fitting spokes are going to be a serious investment.

    Why can't anyone spell my nickname after years I've been using it? Even the Surly blog go it wrong (new original typo though).

    I didn't ask Stan about discs. The 2.0 won't be very wide, it will be light. Definately wider than current similar race tires such as Fast Fred 2.0 and Flyweight 1.9 though.

  8. #8
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    Eurobike woes

    I just got word from JJT that Salsa's Senior Chuck arrived without all his luggage including the new Dos Niner and some other great new product.

    Cloxxki, if you get a chance. Please stop by and introduce yourself to Chuck.

    Thanks for the report.

    Jason
    Salsa Crew

  9. #9
    featherweight clydesdale
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    Thanks for the report

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Stan explained that the ones that seem to fold in your hands are the bad ones that break (Bontrager, WTB, etc)
    I guess 29" tires will have to be a bit heavier than the 10% extra voer 26" I calculated before, and Stan will be the first to come with a product that woks.
    I have to mention that Kenda, IMO, has been producing a tire that works (in the manner you're suggesting) for over 2 years now.

  10. #10
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    Jason, I already got home, so won't be able to meet Chuck unfortunately. There seems to be a bad vibe about Eurobike that prevents you from meeting people. My cel broke down or just wouldn't log on to german providers, so no-one could reach me. You do meet other people you didn't expect to though, the the Surly Dynamic Duo.

    Kenda tires are quite fine yes, and not for nothing Stan's favorite. However, they are not strengthened to compensate for the larger rims, and not designed to work tubeless. Also, they're quite slow, where Stan's own 29" tire might well be the fastest production tire in existence, beating all the 26" competition from Nokian, Schwalbe and Maxxis. Looks like it at least! Promises to be a superb tire for those that will trade speed for grip, and back up their decision with bike handling skills.

  11. #11
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    Thanks for the update -- good stuff!

  12. #12
    Dr. Frost
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    Thanks for the report. And how does Kris Holm do it?

    How does Kris Holm manage to make all of these cool rims and tires? I've gotta think that the big wheel mtb market is bitter than the unicycle market (isn't it?) so why don't people experiment with wheel sizes for bikes?

  13. #13
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    One thing that struck me : big investments in niche products. Be it stupid casts for tools and non-usable stuff that no-one asked for. Big stir about a fat cruiser tire from Schwalbe, the Fat Frank. Only works on super heavy cruiser type bikes. Big Apple tires even in 20x2.35". Why diversify into that direction when people are actually showing demand for something like a proper 29" race tire that gets you loads of press?

    Also strange how Kenda proudly dispays the age-old Klaw 29" tire, and leaves the hyped Karma at home. Is that a good or a bad sign? I just don't know with these guys.

  14. #14
    SALSAFIED endurance racer
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    I know that really sucks it seems like the trek distributors just want to sell trek in europe and no fisher!

    The problem is in germany they don't even have the 29er in their programm and if there are 100, 29ers sold in austria it's a lot!
    Cosmic only sold two Dos Niner frames and they also don't even have the frame in their programm!

    Eurobike is definitly not interresting for 29er fans and that sucks!
    It's got to be AUSTRIA !!!

  15. #15
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    I probably saw fewer 29" frames this year than 2 years ago when I was there.

    In 2003 I saw : 1 Voodoo, 7 or so Nishiki's (no Nishiki now), 2 BeOne's (no BeOne now), 8 or so Fishers (zero now)
    This year : 2 VooDoo's (rather than one), 1 Kona and....was that it?

    Kinda odd, for the quickest growing discipline in offroad cycling?

  16. #16
    SALSAFIED endurance racer
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    We're ahead of one's time - espacially in europe and thats the problem ...

    and another problem seems to be Trek europe because we recognise nothing from all the stuff gary does in the states to get the markted grow ..
    It's got to be AUSTRIA !!!

  17. #17
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    Interbike is in less than a months time, I wonder what will be on display there? The 29" concept has been seen there since 99' and it is still way in the back aisles (except for Fisher of course but they have already done their show and will not be in Vegas as I understand it).

    When the hall at Vegas shows more interest in 29"ers, then I predict that Euro bike will more than likely step in line.
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  18. #18
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    What kind of 36" Monster MTB frame do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    I'll build the first 36" mtb if someone builds me a free (sponsored) frame, builds proper wheels, and supplies the fork these guys used. No bike budget for me right now!
    And the Surly Pugsley is a higher-priority bike for me to build up now anyway. Cheaper also. The custom 36" frame and appropriate wide-spaced-flange hubs pklus fitting spokes are going to be a serious investment.

    Why can't anyone spell my nickname after years I've been using it? Even the Surly blog go it wrong (new original typo though).

    I didn't ask Stan about discs. The 2.0 won't be very wide, it will be light. Definately wider than current similar race tires such as Fast Fred 2.0 and Flyweight 1.9 though.
    So what kind of frame do you want? I'm a Tig welder/fabricator that lives in Spokane Washington (a long ways from Holland I know). I'm a 6'2" 235 Clydsdale that rode a Monster Cruiser 36" for the first time last week at the shop where I bought my GF 293 29er. The thing was fun to ride. The front tire just popped over 5mph speed bumps with very little impact although I felt the rear wheel go over more sharply (at 47 yr's old I have fairly severe degenerative disc disease in my lower back and it's sensitive to small impacts). With a bad back, this is the only wheel size I would even consider building a ridgid front and rear frame for and I would still use a suspension seat post. After the ride I got to thinking about how this 70lb monster could be turned into a lighter multi geared Mountain bike. A call to Coker Tire showed that the steel rim-hub-spoke assembly is available for $125. They claim that the hub is special made for the bike in Tiawain but I don't know if I believe this. I could give building a frame a shot (this would be my first go at building a bike frame and I'm sure I'd have a lot to learn) but that only makes sense if the right parts are availible. I didn't quite follow your post regarding the Kris Holm thing. What exactly is available from him now? And what other parts beside stock are available that you know off? The stock hub is 36 hole with 12 gauge spokes. How would you set your dream monster 36" up? I say dream because I have not commited to this yet, I'm still in the feasability stage, but I love making "one off" things like my "Big wheel" Cannondale recomebent, with 20"/ 26" front & back rather than stock 16"/20". One last thing, what is the signifigance of the crecent moon, star of David and Cross beneath your web name?

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    Mountain man, please mail me at jgklok @ kabelfoon . nl , before we go too far off topic. I'll hate you for beating me to making this happen, but I'll gladly share my drawings and dreams for this with you. An MTB version could be much shorter and quicker handling than the cruisers, possibly even with the stock forks, which would otherwise just add to the complexity of making one happen.

  20. #20
    JJT
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    Ok, klokkie did the words, here you have some pics..

    Gary Fisher: Nothing

    Pace: Ti RC31, a dream, keep on asking for the longer RC31, they may make it for next year!!



    Stan's: It so good to hear how passionate Stan is about his products. Keeps on talking and promoting, was there with 4 of the 7 employee's (Did Sauser ride his rims on the world's??)



    VooDoo: Nice looking Dambala, no changes from last year as far as we could see.



    and the dropouts:



    Surly Pugsley: Not a 29-er, but impressive enough to show some pics. Most impressive was how it handled (on tarmac, but a la). The pressure in the tires was a little high (about 1.1 bar) so it was rolling like a breeze, but already good fun riding it on and of some sideways as if it were some smallroad cracks.



    One of the guys (Hubert) riding the big tired cousin of his KM



    Big...



    Also, the Unit 2-9 looked nice, just as we've seen it before. Color was more apple green as I expected, the sizes have to be confirmed, but the french Rep was not sure about the 22". We have to wait and see.



    Dropouts, just as we know them from the Unit 26"



    Oh, and did I mention 29" is sooooo 2005??

    36" will be the new standard for 2006. Cloxxki trying to convert the not knowing people at Eurobike



    Don't want to be rude and not show one of the most beautifull bikes at the show, a Pegoretti, Italian craftmanship at the Brooks booth



    That's about it from me,

    JJ
    Singlespeed Central - European SS and 29" webshop

  21. #21
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    verification of e-mail receipt

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Mountain man, please mail me at jgklok @ kabelfoon . nl , before we go too far off topic. I'll hate you for beating me to making this happen, but I'll gladly share my drawings and dreams for this with you. An MTB version could be much shorter and quicker handling than the cruisers, possibly even with the stock forks, which would otherwise just add to the complexity of making one happen.
    Hi Cloxxki. Did you get my e-mail response? I have had e-mails that didn''t go through before. Mountain Man

  22. #22
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    I thought 3x I got it, but all were penis enlargement spam :-)
    Try PM on this site.

  23. #23
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    Communication clarification

    [QUOTE=Cloxxki]I thought 3x I got it, but all were penis enlargement spam :-)
    Try PM on this site.[/QUOTE
    I'm pretty new to this e-mail stuff and I'm on a Mac. So what do you want me to do, resend the e-mail to your personal address again, or something else? I don't quite understand. Thanks.

  24. #24
    Recovering couch patato
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    This site allows you to send personal messages directly to someone's profile. If you click someone's name, a profile will come up, with options to send en email or private message, from a site-screen. Email works well normally, the personal message requires one to go to the site to view it.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    One thing that struck me : big investments in niche products. Be it stupid casts for tools and non-usable stuff that no-one asked for. Big stir about a fat cruiser tire from Schwalbe, the Fat Frank. Only works on super heavy cruiser type bikes. Big Apple tires even in 20x2.35". Why diversify into that direction when people are actually showing demand for something like a proper 29" race tire that gets you loads of press?

    Also strange how Kenda proudly dispays the age-old Klaw 29" tire, and leaves the hyped Karma at home. Is that a good or a bad sign? I just don't know with these guys.
    Actually, that Schwalbe is a race tire designed for rough pavement. Rather than every road abberation smacking down the bicycle's speed, these just float. See sand race tires. Also works on tarmac and tiny pea gravel whether it is attached with tar or not (road shoulders). Any condition where these can float makes horrifying fast speed (in my opinion and my speedometer's opinion and with radar). Other conditions do barely better than MTB slicks.

    For the rest of us, this type of tire is far faster (my opinion) than "hybrid" tires, yet has a similar application.

    On "non-optimal" or rough pavement, these can get an edge on just about anything. . .except a 700c road bike equipped with the latest technology treaded, skinwall, kevlar belt&bead touring tires (Ruffy Tuffy, etc. . .). That would be faster than the Schwalbe. Most other things aren't (application dependent--comment was for city rides).

    The testing was very fun!

    Anyway, they'll turn a boring 26" bike into a big cushy blast.
    (opinion again) That's what they're for.

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