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  1. #101
    TR
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    If curves are heavier and weaker then why the move to hydroforming and curved carbon fibre frames such as the Stumpy's and new Air9??

    24lb for my big boy bike is not too bad especiallly when I dont have weight weenie wheels (Hopes to Arch) and with tubes installed rather than tubeless.

  2. #102
    jmw
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    boy, this thread sure has gotten jacked!
    (like many do on mtbr....)

    future nature

  3. #103
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    anyone break one

    Gorgeous stuff, but I got to ask the "flock" anyone else breaking these?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Climber999
    I'll ignore the trolling insult. It takes one to know one, and I don't intend to know you.

    To the point: a straight line will always be shorter than a curved line, thus requiring less material. If a builder used the same tube set and same geometry as your specific bike and bent one tube, but still kept the end points at the same distance, you'll have on your hands a heavier bike. If this is a "red herring" for you, either go back to school and refresh you geometry or just go fishing for herrings...

    About your strength argument, you might be right--might be real life stress on the frame does not push it to its limit. Nevertheless, as you pointed out, in theory straight tubes can withstand those stresses better then curved tubes. Apparently, those frame don't shatter left and right so I suppose they do their job under most conditions.
    You make some good points, but some of your thinking is flawed as well. Yes, a bent tube will be slightly heavier than a straight tube connecting the same points. It may or may not be weaker though, it all depends on the direction of the stresses involved. In some situations the bent tubes are actually stronger, and can be made lighter because of that. Also, there may be other reasons for the curves than just asthetics. The Jones bikes are all about function first. All his bent tubes are there for reason, and that reason is not for looks. On my BS, every tube is bent except the headtube, but they are all bent for specific reasons. The seatstays are double bent to provide compliance, and yes it is very noticeable. The top tube is bent to provide extra standover clearance for emergency dismounts. The downtube is curved to provide fork clearance. The seattube is bent to allow short chainstays, proper front der. alignment, and a slack ST angle. The little connector tube between the top and down tubes is there to strengthen the whole top/down/head tube junction. Actually, I just made up the last one, I really just like the way that one looks!

    Mark
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  5. #105
    ogarajef@luther.edu
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookieone
    Gorgeous stuff, but I got to ask the "flock" anyone else breaking these?
    I did.
    "RIDE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT"

  6. #106
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    where

    Where did it break? I broke the same frame twice, headtube to downtube weld both times, kinda brings the party music to a standstill if ya know what I mean. Jefe

  7. #107
    PeT
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookieone
    I broke the same frame twice
    I broke the same Moots frame twice and the replacement once. Too many people have had great experiences with Moots for me to diss them -- just my bad luck I guess. I've got many more miles on my BS frames than I had on the Moots' -- what that means about quality or luck, I don't really know. What I do know is that James' actually made a fix on one of the Moots that has held up (under my wife's inconsiderable weight and mellow riding style) and created two unique (although they may not look it) frames that fit me to a T for a very reasonable price. My BS party is still going...
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

  8. #108
    ogarajef@luther.edu
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookieone
    Where did it break? I broke the same frame twice, headtube to downtube weld both times, kinda brings the party music to a standstill if ya know what I mean. Jefe
    Same place, but I didn't get a chance to ride it again.
    "RIDE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT"

  9. #109
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    paid SPAM

    I have one for sale if anyone is intersted -

    http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showprod...uct=46877&cat=


  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1strongone1
    Same place, but I didn't get a chance to ride it again.
    Broke mine twice, once at the HT/DT junction and once at the 'sex tube' down tube junction on both sides of the weld. If it breaks again, James said he will replace the whole frame. Both times he fixed it within two days, adding a gusset to the HT/DT. Mine was one of the earlier frames and I think he was still working out the kinks. He was very standup about the issues and said he didn't want to keep 'band-aiding' the problems. Shite happens, it just happened to be my frame.

  11. #111
    Wandering not Lost
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    Few of my sheep

    loaded for the weekend



    unloaded:




  12. #112
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    I cracked a weld on a steel BS back in 2003.
    Sold it.
    --------- __o
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    ------ (*)/ (*)
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    Running is for prey.

  13. #113
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    My 2c

    I would like to weigh in on Azjonboy, Pet and Climber999 comments. Not trying to perpetuate the tangent that this thread went on, but perhaps I can give an opinion of someone who's ridden several of the bikes in question.
    Over the years I've owned several "traditional" tubed titanium bikes both 26 and 29. I owned a Litespeed Obed 26er, a Kona King Kahuna ti 26er, then a Moots Rigor Mootis 29er.
    Now I own a Blacksheep Highlight 1X9 29er and a Blacksheep Highroller (with high light tubes) that is set up as a SS.
    I've also ridden my friends Jones Space frame with truss fork.

    Admittedly I bought my sheep because of esthetics mainly, but trust me, the ride is SO much better than the double triangle tubed bikes that I owned previously. I really felt the Moots was the stiffest (non compliant) of all these frames. The BS frames feel much more vertically compliant while feeling laterally stiff. I honestly can't explain it, except to say that you really just need to ride one for a while (like 2-3 minutes) to convince you. I could tell the difference when I first jumped on my BS and rode in the driveway, seriously.

    Here's the kicker, the frames all weighed within .2 lbs of the other! (and the Moots wasn't the lightest) All of my 29er ti bikes when built as SS/rigid fork weighed around 18.5 and with 1X9 and a susp fork weighed around 22 lbs. Plenty light in my book. Hope this helps.

    BTW, the Jones was also a very compliant ride (vertically) while nice and stiff laterally. I much prefer my BS unicrown ti fork to the truss fork though, nicer to my wrists on the bumps.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Black Sheep Photo Thread - Bring the flock together.-geared-sheep.jpg  

    Black Sheep Photo Thread - Bring the flock together.-ss.jpg  

    "It's all ball bearings"

  14. #114
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    Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts. And by the way, very beautiful bikes you got there (like most of James’ creations...)

    I personally think James is one of the most talented builders out there. His foray into tube curving, new tensioning systems (e.g., HACS), innovative removable rear triangle, eagerness to accomplish the minutest details (e.g., sheep cut out on the stay bridge) and other exemplary miscellaneous items (e.g., removable braze-ons) puts him over and above most builders.

    Everything that James does is custom and the process should yield a bike that fits you to perfection. Reviewing the bikes you have owed, it appears none was custom. Not withstanding the swoopy tubes, that might as well explain why your sheeps feel different and better.

    To truly be able to conclude, subjectively, that a swoopy sheep rides nicer that a traditional diamond frame you need to build a frame with Erikssen, Kish or Strong (to name a few) and compare side by side. I have a stock Ti (Lynskey Pro 2010) and a custom Kish. The Kish for me is a better bike; it’s much more fun to ride (by the way, it has a Black Sheep fork...)

    Finally, some facts on curved tubes:

    A. You cannot bend double butted tubes (0.95/0.5/0.95), since they will buckle. You can only employ 0.7mm tubes, which are lighter than 0.95 straight gauge but not as light as double butted. Thus, a straight tube bike with double butted tubes will be less hefty. In addition, the straight tubes are shorter, which makes them lighter. The difference, pending on frame size, is about 200g. For some weight is more important, for others the bike appearance takes precedence.

    B. Curved tubes can make a positive difference. For instance, a curved seat tube may help to shorten chain stay length. But they can also be a determinant. For example, an upward curved top tube reduces stand over clearance.

    C. Bending a tube changes its metallurgical structure. I.e., in theory, your tube is weaker. From a century of employing curved tubes in frame, it appears this 'tampering' does not make real life difference.

    Last note: truss forks are usually stiffer than uni-crowns or segmented fork, so there should be no surprise your fork is nicer-feeling that Jones’.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Climber999; 05-02-2010 at 07:27 PM.

  15. #115
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    climber999, you make great points and I may be one of the few on this thread who truly takes you on your word and doesn't believe you are trolling.
    I think you researched it thoroughly, made a decision and hopefully got a bike you're happy with. Most of your argument is very sound logically, and I can't really dispute much of it.
    I'm also very methodical and logical in my approach to almost everything I do, but particularly when it costs some money.

    However, even though I strive to have a super light bike, I finally realized that a few grams here or there really aren't worth obsessing about. The old cycling adage about losing a few pounds from the rider is easier and cheaper than the bike is true. I finally just decided that I would not let logic and reason rule EVERY aspect of my life, and get something that is the style and look that I liked. (And it is one of the lightest bikes out there which is a bonus) I truly think I got the proverbial "WIN/WIN" with the frames. I also really like to be riding something that's a little different than the "normal" looking bike that can be found at any bike shop. Just personal preference.

    FWIW, I actually called and talked to Kent Eriksen about building me a frame a couple of years ago, and to be completely honest, he wasn't about to do sliders. Not sure if he still has his heels dug in on that one, but it was evident that he would build me a custom bike WITHIN HIS PARAMETERS OF BUILDING A BIKE FOR ME. Not really so custom with those restrictions.

    I also spoke with JJ and he has his idea of what a bike geometry should be, and is pretty locked-in to his belief about that geometry. Different riders, terrain, styles of riding, etc require different bike geometry and the job of the custom builder is to build a bike for the customer. It's really pretty simple.

    These are two examples of things that I wasn't hung up on, (or weren't deal breakers), yet spoke volumes about whether they were actually listening to the customer or not. Sorry, but I don't get that with James, he is extremely open to ideas and is willing to do what the customer wants. So he built the second frame for me. And will be building my next one sometime in the future.

    For your next frame, I suggest you consider buying one that is "almost" as light as the lightest one you can get, but has the esthetics you want. Then, instead of using it to "decorate your living room", go ride the darned thing and see how you like it. You very well could be pleasantly surprised.
    "It's all ball bearings"

  16. #116
    Snapper
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    St

    My Black Sheep Highlight ST. Many thanks to Shannon here in OZ. It is stunning.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Black Sheep Photo Thread - Bring the flock together.-img_0299.jpg  

    Black Sheep Photo Thread - Bring the flock together.-img_0300.jpg  

    Black Sheep Photo Thread - Bring the flock together.-img_0303.jpg  

    Black Sheep Photo Thread - Bring the flock together.-img_0295.jpg  


  17. #117
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    John,

    That's quite a change since the Spider. Still rolling the Mach 429 here, but I do have a pair of riser bars coming from James for my SS

    Beautiful ride, hope you enjoy that one for years to come.

  18. #118
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    I'd love to hear a full ride report on the Highlight ST.

  19. #119
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    Great ST John. Many fun rides coming with that one.
    If you're lucky enough to be in the mountains,
    you're lucky enough.

  20. #120
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    Bsst

    Thanks Gang,

    Q yes it is a long way from the Spider l got you to send across the pond. Once again l have to credit the Spider for getting me into 29ers, first bike that fit me and it is now being ridden (and loved) by a great guy in North Queensland - his first FS aand 29er. The love continues to spread. I also have a DWL Sultan with coil shock so is very different to the BSST.
    As far as a ride report goes it is a little early as it has only been out on dirt twice. Do you run it like any other FS bike with sag or is it a hardtail that engages suspension every now and then. It is probably somewhere in the middle and l am thinking about 5% sag (was 20%) and ride it like a hardtail. It is screaming out to be a SS which will have to wait a bit. The bars are also better suited to a rigid HT as they are very forgiving (not require on FS). I have some Jones bars which l will try in the future. Run around 100psi to get 5-10% sag. Weighs in around 26lbs with King bolt ups and Flows. It was custom built for Shannon with 25.25 ETT and 19 seat tude. Angles seem more relaxed and while l havent measured the chain stays they seem short (manuals really well). Also prefers transitions with jumps and drops like most XC race rigs but l gave her a bit and she was fine. Now wondering how she will go with a coil shock (not really). Ideal for an internal geared hub and belt drive.
    It is not like anything else l have ridden and requires more finese than big old ham fisted me can give. It will be like any relationship - give and take, expensive, rewarding, trying, hopefully end with children of the Black Sheep variety and wont break my heart. It will last me forever and has given me a taste for BS HTs............... just dont tell the missus.
    Cheers
    JD
    Last edited by johnd663; 05-18-2010 at 08:53 PM.

  21. #121
    SpoK Werks Handmade Goods
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by lostemple
    Just rode my ti hard tail for the first time. I noticed an immediate pounding on my posterier compared to my FS. I don't know how you SS rigid guys do it. Props to you!
    Funny how it's all about what you're used to. I resemble that remark (SS & rigid) and when I see people riding FS bikes with gears I wonder the same thing. Of course, I've been on a rigid SS for more than 3/4's of the time I've been riding mountain bikes. This year, that's 16 years.

    My contribution to this thread...


    I started with a High Lite which was wayyyyy too flexy for my taste. Got James to replace it with the the High Roller which I love save for 1 or 2 things. I still think MikeSee's bike is one of the most beautiful that I've ever seen and was shooting for with the High Roller.

    A couple more while I'm on a roll.... snicker.

    About to go to the same race (24 Hours of Finale Ligure) in 2 weeks again.




    ...And this is the same race as I posted last year (München City Bike Marathon) but the 2010 version. Eighty kilometers of almost dead flat on a singlespeed... man, that's abusive!



  22. #122
    Delirious Tuck
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    Stay tuned for the Highlight RAM... the Really AM-style clyde friendly highlight, weight weenies beware... James has heard my concerns... slacker hta around a 120mm 20mm thru axle XX Reba fork, SS w/1x9 optionality, laterally stiff and compliant, high east coast approved BB height, geometry and strength for a person built like an ex-rugby playing orangutan who likes to ride trials... This Ram will be fast, and make other bikes look on with bahhhhfled awe as it sails down the trails and through the air...

  23. #123
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    tease

  24. #124
    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1Gel
    I simply, absolutely love the lines on this bike!
    I think it's the way the TT just flows unimpeded into the seatstays... waaaay sweeet!
    ...just gave me goosebumps
    If I had the moolah for a custom job, this can serve as the template for it
    Where can I get a seatpost like that, from the builder I guess right? It is Ti right? How is that clamp holding up?
    I need to ride more and work less.

  25. #125
    TR
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    Quote Originally Posted by liteandfast
    Where can I get a seatpost like that, from the builder I guess right? It is Ti right? How is that clamp holding up?
    Rach doesn't come here much so I will answer for her.
    Yes it is a ti Blacksheep seatpost.
    She has had no problems with the clamp.
    Clamp has a nut recessed in it so if she strips the threads it is as simple as replacing the nut and no need to have the frame itself retapped.

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