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  1. #201
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    P.S. One of my favorite places to ride, period, and one place of many where this new LunchBox really shines:

    Damned.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by wigston View Post
    Hey Guys, just wanted to let you know that we are also doing the new Behemoth with the super short chain-stays. It will have the new slick looking top tube, but the down-tube will stay the same as it is now to keep the frame lighter. So the Moth will be a lighter version of the box with 5" travel. So if you like the Box, but want something a bit more XC oriented, the behemoth is a good choice. Email us at sales@lenzsport.com if you want to see the geometry chart for either the Box or the Moth.

    Thanks,
    Nick@Lenz Sport


    Attachment 841240
    Hey Nick a PunkAss Behemoth with the higher BB and short CS sounds great. Can that be had with a wider rear hub or is 135mm the only option?
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Mack Ridge coming up from Troybuilt. New favorite climb in the valley.
    Just did Lion's/Troybuilt for the first time last weekend....fun stuff! Guess I need to hit up Mack next...


  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I think that combo gives more like 142 or so millimeters. Can't tell the difference in total travel, but the character of the bike sure changes.
    Got it. Thx.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post

    Duuuuude. Insane!

    My heart rate goes up a bit just considering the difficulty of this climb.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    Duuuuude. Insane!

    My heart rate goes up a bit just considering the difficulty of this climb.
    Pretty sure that's the first/only time I've ever cleaned it. Can vividly remember heaving myself at it unsuccessfully on longer-cs bikes on past trips.

    99% certain we'll be riding it the opposite direction on this next trip. Though that doesn't mean you can't stop, turn around, and session it!

  7. #207
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin+M View Post
    Exactly. Of course now I only have one. The Lenz is so much more versatile than I imagined that I was able to let go of the Rip9 RDO. I was expecting to hold onto the Niner just because I figured I wouldn't want to pedal around a 6 inch bike all the time, but it really surprised me and with the 5 inch rockers it is like 2 bikes in one anyway.
    Would you say the Box pedals better than the RIP? Or just close enough to justify letting go of the RDO?

  8. #208
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    With the 5 inch rockers on the 'Box, they pedal very similar. The Rip has a very active suspension on the trail, as does the Box. I honestly would put them pretty even overall, but the inch that has been chopped off the chainstay on the Lenz really puts it in another league. You just can't ignore it. Even if it pedaled noticeably worse I would deal with it just to have the geometry of the Lenz. It just does everything better. The Box just climbs and climbs and climbs up rough terrain with gobs of traction.

    I will say that I'm a huge fan of the Rip RDO even still, but it wasn't in the same category anymore. If I hadn't ridden the Lunchbox I'd probably still be very satisfied with the Rip RDO, but as it stands it was hard to go back to longer chainstays.

    If you can't get your hands on a new Lunchbox, the Niner would still be my #1 recommendation.

  9. #209
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    Thanks Colin. "Can't" is relative...I wonder if I can get 1500 for my alloy RIP...

  10. #210
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    Quote Originally Posted by kragu View Post
    Thanks Colin. "Can't" is relative...I wonder if I can get 1500 for my alloy RIP...
    That's the talk of a man with purpose. ;-)

    I have no experience on a RIP RDO however, I can contribute my opinion and findings, with relevancy, of the new Box to the old...

    In the first ~10 hours and ~50 miles I've cleared obstacles and sections of trail -- mostly ledgy climbing and gnarly uphill root gardens -- that gave me fits on my previous Box. The bike makes things borderline easy.

    Colin, and others here speak the truth when they say "gobs of traction" when climbing.

  11. #211
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    If you can wrap your head around the fact that:

    1. You won't see a Lenz review in MBA or the like...
    2. Won't ever a see an "ad" for one
    3. Most people will have never heard of it
    4. It's unapologetically un-carbon
    5. It doesn't have any cute acronyms or "technology"
    6. The Website is...well, dated is a nice way to put it

    Point is, this is mountain biking. It is supposed to be raw, ugly, utilitarian, rough, manly, tough etc etc etc. It's a tool, not jewelry. Use that MF'er.

    Because of this I have the say that my Lenz is the definition of a "mountain bike".

    Oh, and I think it looks pretty

  12. #212
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin+M View Post
    3. Most people will have never heard of it
    4. It's unapologetically un-carbon
    ...
    Oh, and I think it looks pretty
    Most asked question I've had: is that carbon?

    Nope.

    Followed by, Lenz, eh? Never heard of it.

    That's too bad. For you, I mean. Wanna ride it?

    Haha! Nah...I'm not really a jerk but it's fun to mess with people sometimes.

  13. #213
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    In the past 4 years I've only seen one other Lenz in person, a Leviathan, and the guy riding it was pleased as punch.

    I really think that we all get caught up in the details and the newest, latest and greatest that we miss the boat somewhat. I'm totally guilty of this.

    This bike isn't flashy but it is by far the best bike I've ever ridden. The funny part is that it has it all, even more than the latest and greatest.

    Bottom line is that this bike is FUN. Remember that word? Isn't that why we all do this in the first place?

  14. #214
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    My problem is that this is too much bike for 80% or so of my riding. But if it pedals as well or nearly as well as my current setup, then what the hell...

    As for aesthetics, I think that raw color is gorgeous. I might go for a flat black with gloss black graphics, but that's just splitting hairs.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Hey Nick a PunkAss Behemoth with the higher BB and short CS sounds great. Can that be had with a wider rear hub or is 135mm the only option?


    Talked to Nick and figured I might as well post the answers to my questions in case anyone else is interested:

    - you can get a short CS Behemoth
    - you can get 142 or 150mm rear end
    - will have the higher BB which I like
    - a large Moth will be 1/2lb lighter in the frame and typically builds up 1lbs lighter over all compared to a Lunch Box
    - build time is 2-3 months currently
    - new Moth geo chart above and LB chart below

    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  16. #216
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    Yup; saved for reference. Thanks, vikb.
    "Back off, man. I'm a scientist." - Dr. Peter Venkman

    Riding in Helena? Everything you need to know, right here.

  17. #217
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    There should be a Lenz Sport sub-forum so we can keep all this good info readily at hand!
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  18. #218
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    There should be a Lenz Sport sub-forum so we can keep all this good info readily at hand!
    I've been wanting a Lenz sub for a couple of years now.

    What does it take to get one started?

    Mods, are you listening?

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimithng23 View Post
    I've been wanting a Lenz sub for a couple of years now.

    What does it take to get one started?

    Mods, are you listening?
    Reasonably priced high performance handmade FS mountain bikes made in the US. If this company doesn't deserve its own sub-forum I don't know who does.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimithng23 View Post
    I've been wanting a Lenz sub for a couple of years now.

    What does it take to get one started?

    Mods, are you listening?
    Good luck with that. Has been requested for years.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post


    Talked to Nick and figured I might as well post the answers to my questions in case anyone else is interested:

    - you can get a short CS Behemoth
    - you can get 142 or 150mm rear end
    - will have the higher BB which I like
    - a large Moth will be 1/2lb lighter in the frame and typically builds up 1lbs lighter over all compared to a Lunch Box
    - build time is 2-3 months currently
    - new Moth geo chart above and LB chart below

    Thanks that is very helpful.

    I am not sure how he is getting the 6" Box to have lower BB over a 5" Behemoth with a shorter fork! The rockers must be very different, or the Moth must be running a longer shock i 2 i.

    The impressive reviews of this bike again reaffirm my preference for geometry over linkage type. Good geometry with proper shock tuning wins every time.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  22. #222
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    I think rockers are the same as are the shock lengths, slacker head angle will help lower the BB some but not a ton. Longer downtube on the lunchbox? Higher pivot locations on the frame equaling a lower BB in relation to the rear triangle? Hell, those magicians and their tricks.

    I can confirm that the new LB with a 150mm Fork and middle of the road tires yields a BB Height of 13.5 inches on the nose.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    .Good geometry with proper shock tuning wins every time.
    Amen. Technology triumphing over reason...not this time.

  24. #224
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    Been following this thread for some time now.Can those of you riding the newer LB comment on how it is on long climbs.From what I've been reading it handles the short steep bursts (climbs) very well.
    I would guess a 5" version would be the better choice for this.Wonder how long before one gets to the east coast!?

  25. #225
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    Does North Georgia/TN count as east coast? I'm pretty sure that mine was the first one this side of the Mississippi river.

    It handles climbing, period. Smooth singletrack, rocks, roots...you betcha.

    The 5 inch rockers provide a firmer feel, so I would say it pedals "better" in that regard, although I'm sure Mikesee thinks the 6's do just fine

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Here's how it breaks down:

    LunchBox = 200 x 51mm stroke shock w/6" levers.
    Behemoth = 200 x 51mm stroke w/5" levers.

    Geometry and intent of each bike aside, the main difference is the levers giving a different total travel. So you can swap the levers to get 5 or 6" depending, with no need to change the shock or stroke.

    In an effort to dot every i and cross every t, I experimented this spring with a few 200 x 57mm shocks using 5" levers. That combo gives a *very* firm top end, with good mid stroke support and a beautiful ramp to bottom. Makes this chassis feel very efficient, and more or less begs for a stand-and-deliver climbing style. Peeps coming from shorter travel bikes or living in less chunky regions might really like this setup. Living where I do, I disliked the loss of small bump sensitivity relative to the 'normal' (200 x 51 w/6" levers) LunchBox setup.

    But I love that if the mood strikes or if I'm roadtripping to someplace very different from my normal environs, a lever or shock swap can completely morph the demeanor of the bike.
    So I've noticed the VA's on a few of the bikes, and the smallest size they come in is 200x57, so how is that working out w/ the 6" rockers?

  27. #227
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    It doesn't. He was running the VA with the 5 inch rockers. The 57mm stroke will cause the rear triangle to contact the seat tube with 6 inch rockers(yes I tried).

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Rock View Post
    So I've noticed the VA's on a few of the bikes, and the smallest size they come in is 200x57, so how is that working out w/ the 6" rockers?
    57mm stroke w/6" rockers doesn't work. You can run the 57mm stroke w/5" rockers and get ~142mm of travel. To run the full 6" levers you need a 50 or 51mm stroke shock.

  29. #229
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    Interesting, based on a comment that you loved the VA set up, but also that the 57mm stroke shocks really firm up the initial travel in 5" mode. Guess the vivid is just a little more plush so it ends up as the best of both worlds?

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Rock View Post
    Interesting, based on a comment that you loved the VA set up, but also that the 57mm stroke shocks really firm up the initial travel in 5" mode. Guess the vivid is just a little more plush so it ends up as the best of both worlds?
    "Best" depends on whom, where, and how. Best for me is a 200 x 51 M+ with 6" levers. If I lived somewhere drastically different I'd probably consider the VA with 5" levers.

  31. #231
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Rock View Post
    Interesting, based on a comment that you loved the VA set up, but also that the 57mm stroke shocks really firm up the initial travel in 5" mode. Guess the vivid is just a little more plush so it ends up as the best of both worlds?
    The way I understand it, the 57mm stroke on the VA firms up the initial travel resulting in a smooth and efficient ride with big hit capability. The 51mm stroke is a bit more plush initially allowing for more give and a more preferable ride with regards to small bump sensitivity when slow crawling through chunk and chunder, while still soaking up chunk and big hits at speed.

    For me, the firmer initial stroke made more sense -- Midwest singletrack is where I primarily ride -- so eating up roots and rocks, ability to hit the man made features/drops/jumps we must build to make things interesting, all while not feeling like a pig when the trail points up all pointed toward the VA being the damper of choice for me, where I ride.

    As MC has said, completely different set of circumstances for him; and thanks, MC for sharing your experiences and advice on all this!

    All that said, I'll likely grab a set of the 6" levers and a 51mm stroke M+ and bolt 'em on when I hit trails that demand it.

    Until then, I'm loving this setup.

  32. #232
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    So, does anyone have one of these and NOT love it? Love to get at least one dissenting opinion.

  33. #233
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    Good luck

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by kragu View Post
    So, does anyone have one of these and NOT love it? Love to get at least one dissenting opinion.
    I doubt you will. Since it's not a showroom brand, you don't have some kid spewing acronyms and telling you what you need just happens to be the one your standing next to. To buy a Lenz, you have to want to buy a Lenz. If I could make an uneducated guess on the profile of a typical Lenz rider it would be that they are a seasoned rider that has ridden a lot of bikes and pretty cynical of three letter marketing term on a bike. They have ridden lots of bikes and know what to look for. Or you could be like me and think that if you look directly at a S-works sticker, a little bit of your soul is taken forever( my favorite road bike is an old steel Allez that I rode forever in the '90s.)

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by kragu View Post
    So, does anyone have one of these and NOT love it? Love to get at least one dissenting opinion.
    Colin owns one and I think he accurately summarized the 'downsides':

    1. You won't see a Lenz review in MBA or the like...
    2. Won't ever see an "ad" for one
    3. Most people will have never heard of it
    4. It's unapologetically un-carbon
    5. It doesn't have any cute acronyms or "technology"
    6. The Website is...well, dated is a nice way to put it

    If you're honest with yourself about what you need and what you don't, it should be easy to make (or not) the choice, and there won't be any surprises if you do.

    I've been riding the feee-eye-uck out of mine since I got it. On days when it rained locally I was lucky enough to be in Moab or on the Front Range to ride. My legs are fried and I have a substantial work backlog, but my head is clear and I haven't enjoyed being on the bike this much in…?

    Years, at any rate.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-KyB5FoPGjWZlRbhk3PwdJBwdAAQH5ysi3U6JKwTWgQ?feat=em bedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-j3cVHouYHcA/UnqHWV7d6JI/AAAAAAAAl04/L6nsJ7pyH54/s800/4A4B4548.jpg" height="455" width="800" /></a>


    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1TCYvCbdObCsEVsPUJI13JBwdAAQH5ysi3U6JKwTWgQ?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NQfJ6BBOugk/UnqHXqmU2wI/AAAAAAAAl1A/GdFra8qUKmY/s800/131104turng1557.jpg" height="800" width="534" /></a>


    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EY9m_s0f88zfoh5MRvEaOZBwdAAQH5ysi3U6JKwTWgQ?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DmvEDDw-IF0/UnqHYQKjnbI/AAAAAAAAl1I/BTE5L9HugDk/s800/131104turng1567.jpg" height="534" width="800" /></a>


    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/_u3xNc26G0Qy-c8kiQdr1pBwdAAQH5ysi3U6JKwTWgQ?feat=embedwebsite"> <img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sguLl4jHDA0/UnqHZSWehWI/AAAAAAAAl1Q/x86SV3dlFic/s800/131105moore1697.jpg" height="534" width="800" /></a>

  36. #236
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    Reading reviews of boutique brands can be a double edged sword, though. You might not have the marketing power if the big S to deal with, but smaller brands tend to have fanboy types who are very vocal about their love for, say, Niner, Banshee, etc...

    Not to say that those giving this thread its meat are blind fanboys by any means - reeeeeally not saying that. I've just found that, in the bike world, almost everything has a flaw or weakness. Really curious as to what that could be with this bike.

    Edit: started on this post before Mikesee's above. Colin's list of "downsides" really have nothing to do with the bike itself. One of my issues is that I haven't ridden a crapload of bikes like Colin or Mike, and my best frame of reference is my RIP9. Not all that sure I have enough seasoning to be able to make a truly informed decision.

    I have Colin's list, but I'm wondering, Mike, if you might be able to quickly list similar bikes you've ridden. Let's call "similar" 125mm+ rear travel FS 29ers.

  37. #237
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    This is how I started out and ended up as a Lenz owner:

    Ride Comparison: Lenz Behemoth vs Turner Sultan

    I was coming off a FS 29er with looooong chain stays, looking for quicker handling, slack HA for confident descending, and an overall great performing bike.

    For all the reasons that have been covered in this thread and the one I referenced, I chose Lenz...and haven't looked back.

    Now on my 2nd LunchBox and, at this point, I can't think of anything that will make me want to replace this bike.

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by kragu View Post
    Reading reviews of boutique brands can be a double edged sword, though. You might not have the marketing power if the big S to deal with, but smaller brands tend to have fanboy types who are very vocal about their love for, say, Niner, Banshee, etc...

    Not to say that those giving this thread its meat are blind fanboys by any means - reeeeeally not saying that. I've just found that, in the bike world, almost everything has a flaw or weakness. Really curious as to what that could be with this bike.
    To me, the only question is: how much am I going to notice the loss of the feel of carbon? I've ridden otherwise identical bikes with both frame materials, and the feel of carbon is a real thing, and its technological superiority in building a better *riding* frame, all other things equal, is also real.

    Maybe put another way: if Devin could make bikes out of carbon with the same skill and ease as he does aluminum, would he make aluminum bikes? You don't hear a lot of people making arguments for the outright superiority of aluminum as a frame material (and the ones that do frequently make bad arguments**). Small scale builders make metal frames because it's not feasible to make carbon frames on a small scale.

    So that's my only reservation, really. I'm sold on the superiority of carbon (ceteris paribus), and that's currently an unavoidable tradeoff if you want a Lenz. I can live without the acronyms and advertisements.

    **Disclaimer: I'm intentionally bracketing the "I crash a lot, so I need a metal frame" argument.

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    To me, the only question is: how much am I going to notice the loss of the feel of carbon? I've ridden otherwise identical bikes with both frame materials, and the feel of carbon is a real thing, and its technological superiority in building a better *riding* frame, all other things equal, is also real.
    Can you be more specific about the feel of carbon that you think you're going to miss? I've had carbon bikes and I've had aluminum bikes. I've also had 4 Lenz frames. All of the Lenz frames I've ridden have a distinct feel to them. Not sure how to put it into words but I think the best way would be if I was blindfolded and rode several bikes, I think I could pick out the one built by Devin pretty easily.

    To me, the advantages of carbon frames are that they are stiffer and lighter. Devin's frames are typically stiffer and lighter than comparable aluminum frames in the same travel, intended use category. I don't think you're going to notice much of a difference.

  40. #240
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    How does the Lenz feel? Solid. Period.

    I agree with the above statement. No wiggle, no flex no nothing except...solidity

  41. #241
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    Quote Originally Posted by 12snap View Post
    Not sure how to put it into words but I think the best way would be if I was blindfolded and rode several bikes, I think I could pick out the one built by Devin pretty easily.
    .
    Sounds like a really bad idea.

    Can you *try* to put it into words? This intrigues me.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12snap View Post
    Can you be more specific about the feel of carbon that you think you're going to miss? I've had carbon bikes and I've had aluminum bikes. I've also had 4 Lenz frames. All of the Lenz frames I've ridden have a distinct feel to them. Not sure how to put it into words but I think the best way would be if I was blindfolded and rode several bikes, I think I could pick out the one built by Devin pretty easily.

    To me, the advantages of carbon frames are that they are stiffer and lighter. Devin's frames are typically stiffer and lighter than comparable aluminum frames in the same travel, intended use category. I don't think you're going to notice much of a difference.
    This is helpful. I've never ridden a Lenz, and that's not for lack of want-to, and so I'm totally willing to cede that they are on a different level from your average aluminum bike.

    I agree with you on those two advantages of carbon. The third I would add is a certain damping of high frequency chatter. The properties of carbon can be altered in different areas of the frame, and when this is done properly, I do think it contributes to the ride feel. There's a certain "stiff, yet well-damped" feel... maybe also hard to put in to words.

    Does anyone have a good frame weight number on the Punk Ass Lunchbox?

    Edit: I wanted to add that I think stiffness is significantly more important than the damped feel I mentioned.

  43. #243
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    The bike that started it all just got even better...

    Regarding weight, Nick sent me a chart that said 7.6 for a medium with a Fox Vanilla.

  44. #244
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    My size Large was 7.5 lbs I think, without a shock. Builds under 30 lbs are easily attainable. It doesn't ride like a heavy bike though. I was willing to give up a few numbers on a scale for a superior experience on the trail.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by kragu View Post
    Sounds like a really bad idea.

    Can you *try* to put it into words? This intrigues me.
    Obviously, I wouldn't ride a bike blindfolded. A better way to put it would be if you could somehow mask a bike so there was no visual indication of the brand, suspension type or material and you could only feel how it rode, I would be able to tell if it was a Lenz or not. You really would need to ride one to know what I'm talking about.

  46. #246
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    OK,enough.I can't take it anymore! I neeed to see this bike in action.Can one or some of you guys get out there with a friend and a Go-Pro and get some video for us.Thus far what I've found is very limited. Although the still pics with the scenery are amazing

  47. #247
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    My build is at 32 pounds. Swap out the Salsa Gordo's for Stans FlowEX or carbon hoops like the Enve's Colin is running or the Derby's Mikesee is running and I'm under 30 no problem. That said, I've never cared about the weight of my bikes...a buddy of mine had a scale so we threw it on there for poops and grins.

    Doesn't matter - I don't feel and/or care about the weight, at all. I can keep up with my Cat2 buddies on the climbs, then descending...well, it doesn't get much better on a 29er.

    I've failed miserably with my latest go pro attempts...sorry, just gonna have to get one of your own. ;-)

    kidding...I'll try and get some decent vids up sooner or later. The bike is just so damn fun to ride, stopping to get photos and videos becomes an afterthought!

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post

    Does anyone have a good frame weight number on the Punk Ass Lunchbox?


    The new version LB frame weight is noted in the chart above.
    Last edited by vikb; 11-06-2013 at 08:38 PM.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post


    The new version LB frame weight is noted in the chart above in lbs without shock.
    I only have a sample size of one, but my size M was 6.8# on an Ultimate scale. That included the shock hardware and seat collar, but no shock.

    That same scale says my complete bike is 30# even.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EAKO9rYenSOTbawaOjYiqB7b25IpCDnuFfoBy9dgzwc?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-M_LysKmOxPQ/UmVSpfx9rjI/AAAAAAAAlSg/rs7SZgxPT7E/s800/sb13.JPG" height="474" width="800" /></a>

  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I only have a sample size of one, but my size M was 6.8# on an Ultimate scale. That included the shock hardware and seat collar, but no shock.

    That same scale says my complete bike is 30# even.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EAKO9rYenSOTbawaOjYiqB7b25IpCDnuFfoBy9dgzwc?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-M_LysKmOxPQ/UmVSpfx9rjI/AAAAAAAAlSg/rs7SZgxPT7E/s800/sb13.JPG" height="474" width="800" /></a>
    So looks like we've got frame weight numbers +/- 1 lb.

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