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  1. #1
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    36er Prototype Pictures.

    Hi guys. Here's a few teaser shots and some info on the 36er I've designed. I will be posting more in depth info after QBP's Frostbike this weekend. Enjoy!

    Wheelbase: 46 inches.
    Weight: 36 lbs, (with full Surly flask and holder!)
    Chainstay length: 520 mm
    Drivetrain: 3 X 6, 20-90 gear inches
    Standover height: 30.5 inches
    Top tube length: 24.5 inches

    Pic #1: A line up of 26", 29", and 36" wheels featuring the local Titus rep.
    Pic #2: Photo of the bike next to an 18" Salsa El Mariachi for size comparison.

    My first impressions, it's more fun than I possibly imagined!
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  2. #2
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    Yeah, finally pics of a purposely-designed 36" MTB, props for having it done!!

    Please do share any info and pics, details!!!

  3. #3
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    holy poo

    I have seen the Cokers before...but when you put it next to the 29er, the 29er looks like a little bitty bike...the difference is remarkable...looks like a 29er next to a BMX bike in terms of tire size.

    Love to see more of that frame though.

    Too bad you have a very limited selection of tires....at this point....
    My ego is bigger and better looking than yours.

  4. #4
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    There is only one tire actually. Coker tires no longer fit Airfoil aluminum rims. We've figured out how to cut our own tread into the slick TA tires easily enough, it actually yields a tire that is over a lb lighter than the Coker, and the tread is much better. The grip so far is unbelievable!
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by benwitt11
    Hi guys. Here's a few teaser shots and some info on the 36er I've designed. I will be posting more in depth info after QBP's Frostbike this weekend. Enjoy!

    Wheelbase: 46 inches.
    Weight: 36 lbs, (with full Surly flask and holder!)
    Chainstay length: 520 mm
    Drivetrain: 3 X 6, 20-90 gear inches
    Standover height: 30.5 inches
    Top tube length: 24.5 inches

    Pic #1: A line up of 26", 29", and 36" wheels featuring the local Titus rep.
    Pic #2: Photo of the bike next to an 18" Salsa El Mariachi for size comparison.

    My first impressions, it's more fun than I possibly imagined!
    More importantly, how does it ride (outside of being "fun")?

  6. #6
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    Holy Moly! I sure hope you have at least an 8" rotor on the front. I suspect that thing could pick up some serious speed going downhill!!!!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingingSingleTracker
    More importantly, how does it ride (outside of being "fun")?
    The momentum generated by the wheels is astounding. Once up to speed, it takes no energy at all to keep it moving. It really feels like a 29er on crack. Everying is magnified with the larger wheels. They are heavy but no one who has ridden it yet has even commented on that. On hills it is noticable, though the gearing seems fine in this regard. Coming down hills is awesome! I spun out the big gear, (over 90 inches,) last night in town.

    The first thing people say is how surprised by how "normal" it feels. It is stable to a fault, but not hard to corner with at all. It feels much like a motorcycle, where stability in cornering is much higher than that of a bike. It is very confidence insipiring, inspite of the icy roads we have now. With the tires at about 10 psi, I could not make the rear tire slip on clearly icy roads. It's pretty unreal. Curbs are the clearest point of how these things roll over stuff. With lower pressure, the wheels simply pop over them.
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  8. #8
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    Are the airfoil rims too tight or too losse fitting for the Coker tires?

    Which tubes are in there, if any?
    The 24hr unicycle distance record was set with a tubeless setup.
    I've read reports that the Schwalbe 28x2.35" tubes work just fine in 36" unicycle wheels, saves like half a pound per wheel, perhaps?

    Will someone ever manage to make one tire out of two? Like joining two really wide 26" tires that clear mud well and roll decently. The frankentire technology (sticking a tread on a shaved bold tire) may also be an option again. We have many 29" options now, so there's less need for frankentires in that size now.
    Please report on head tube angle, fork offset and toe clearance?

  9. #9
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    The tires we are using are a bastardized Wheels TA slick. This tire is 300 grams lighter than the Coker before cutting the tread, and that drops a further 100 grams off the tire.

    The Coker tire REALLY doesn't work with the Aluminum rim anymore. They blow off the rim at any more than 20 psi. It is not an option. The cut slicks do a better job anyway. 29er tubes do work fine. I'm using a standard Bontrager, though I have the rimstrips from Stan to make them tubeless, which we'll be trying wen the weather warms up.


    Jan, this thing would be perfect for your beach races. You'd love it.
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  10. #10
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    No kidding, I SO BADLY want a bike like this, for beach racing as well as other stuff!

    Which Stan's strips, custom? Stretching them will narrow them down of course, and may affect stickyness/sealing properties?

    How wide are the rims?

    Do us a favor and mount a stupidly short gear, and see how steep you can climb with that long-ass chainstays? I bet at 10psi you can ride up steep staircases!

    Only real downside I see for larger wheels is that at the lower pressures you'll run, the rims may hit more easily, the volume being bigger to boot.

  11. #11
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    You have to remember that the tires are FOUR PLY!! This changes the PSI scale like you wouldn't believe. The tire are rock hard at 35 psi, and at 10-17 psi they feel pretty normal. With the hub I'm using in the rear, it's hard to get a 34t big ring to work without rubbing the upper der jockey wheel. I'm working on that. The der is simply not designed to move that far down in that short of a space. I had to modify it as well in regards to the low set screw, which would not screww in far enough to stop the der. If a longer screw was used it prevented the der from moving normally to the lower gears. The solution is very simple, but took some time to figure out. I think that combined with the heavier wheels, a gear lower than 22-27 that's on there would be relativly useless. It's simple going to be had to keep the bike going at that low of a speed anyway. That said, with that low of a gear, you could pull stumps!
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  12. #12
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    You're using a Hope SS hub, I presume? Or Profile 6-speed 150mm?
    Yes, it's hard to get a 34t to work then. SRAM is a no-no them, by lack of B-tension spring (if that's how you say that).
    Have you considered a longer derailer hanger? With a custom (say) 40t cog (can be had, really), and then like 32-26-22-18-15 you'd still have a great range.

    On "my" 36" I'll certainly have wide hubs and the longer derailer hanger I just came up with. Or someone will have to make a longer-body derailer.

  13. #13
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    The hubs are 135 front and rear, Surly SS front, Profile 6 spd 135 rear. 150mm makes sense, but hub availability is shoddy at best. I wanted everything on here to be as available as possible. The "simple" solution to the rear der is to have a threaded and tapped "plug" made that would screw into the existing der mount, and move the der out an inch or so. I'm working on that.
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  14. #14
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    Moving the hanger out an inch will give you 2 x Pi x 2 = over 12t extra clearance if I am not mistaken. On the lower end shifting might hurt a bit, an 11t already feeling like it was placed where a 23t belongs.
    Half an inch might do the job if you want to stick to a 34t largest cog?

    I have not ridden a 36" more han a couple straights and corners at a bike show, but I think it's not "heavy wheel momentum" keeping you going, but a greatly reduced pulling effect of the uneven terrain on your bike.

    4-ply, wow... If those could be ordered in 2-ply, they'd be totally different again I'm sure.
    Is rolling resistance over smooth pavement now even a benefit over a fast 26/29" tire?
    I can't emphasize enough how much you ROCK daring to do this. You will most certainly not be the last either.

    My 36" wishlist :
    - V-brakes should do fine
    - Really wide hubs, please!
    - Long crank compliant (if the wheels are going to fit me, so are the cranks)
    - sub-30lbs is possible. With alu frame/fork, pounds lighter still.

    Time to come up with a frank/crank design that does away with a bottom bracket. Move the rear wheel as far forward as one wants. :-)

  15. #15
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    New question here. What about....

    Using a Rohlof hub? Would this work? (Excuse the ignorance)

    Gladshooks!.... that tire is bigger than my inseam

    We aren't easily impressed here in SoCal but that is an awesome bike! A big fun factor

    OLM...
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  16. #16
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    Rohloff isn't rated for those gear ratio's I think.

  17. #17
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    Nice stuff.

    Where'd you source the spokes? Or did you cut 'em yourself from old fenceposts?!!

    In case no one else has mentioned it, you *really* need a pic of the bike by itself...

    Cheers,

    MC

  18. #18
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    This is just too good to be true!

    Please post some extra pics from the bike + frame, willing to share frame drawings? Any commercial plans with this?

    Please shoot Mark Slate from WTB an Email about this, also with ride report. I'm talking with him about 31" / 32" mountainbike wheels, but he simply thinks it's not going to work ......

  19. #19
    Witty McWitterson
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    Sweet!

    Can't wait to take some fancy pics of this beast at the open house! I'm all giddy now....
    Just a regular guy.

  20. #20
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    It is all that and more!

    I rode that monster Saturday ( I had to leave my first born son as a deposit ) and I must say Ben did a wonderful job of designing this bike. It rides without any unusual quirks at all. For the right application this bike will rock!
    Thanks again.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ss29er
    For the right application this bike will rock!
    Right application? ...........

  22. #22
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    Anyone make a long travel fork for it yet?

    That's really cool.

    Make mine a SS please.

  23. #23
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    I'd REALLY like to see a bike built for someone my size using those wheels...I dare say it would look "normal." At least I'd look more "normal" on it.
    I might be convinced to run rigid on one of those!

  24. #24
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    I saw this 36" last halloween critical mass

    SS with a nice wicker basket!
    “I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there”

  25. #25
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    Padre, a 200mm DH fork could be reduced to a 80mm (fuzzy math) 36" fork easily!

  26. #26
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    More pics, please!
    Wow, I'd love to take that thing for a spin. Sweet.
    -Sean

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Rohloff isn't rated for those gear ratio's I think.

    Just decrease the gear ratio at the chain drive.


    I have a question, do these accelerate as fast as a BMX bike since these wheels will have less RPMs? Also, are these just as good for a 5'2" person like the 29er is?

    Thanks.




  28. #28
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    A Rohloff would be ideal for this bike. I think that that ratios would be just fine. The biggest thing is that Rohloff's are only available in 32 hole drillings. If they offered a 36, I'd have one.

    The spokes are commonly available, if you use the right hubs, and are less money than some high end, double butted, normal offereings.

    For bigger people like Padre, it's really very easy to get a bike with these wheels. This frame could be built far smaller even without many trade offs. I have the designs, and the next one built is going to be for a 5' 8" friend.

    Forks are a dream at this point. White Bothers would be the guys to go to, and I have called them about it. They said for about $5000 plus labor they could do it, but they don't want to. They would have to re-engineer their DH 200 fork, and they said that it might not even work well then.

    The bars and seat are in the exact same positon relative to the ground as on my RX. If a person were to get a 2-3 inc fork made for it, it would invariably have to raise the bars at least 3 inches, plus all the issues of rebuilding the front end of the frame to be strong enough. I don't think that it would be worth it.

    About the "right application," I don't know that there is one. I think that I summed it up best when I said that the bike is fun. It is smooth like nothing I've ever ridden. It's got heavier wheels then some whole bike's I've owned. The wheels are inherently weak, and there's only so much that can be done with that. The tires are the biggest failing point, as anythign with custom tread can't be ever massed produced. In short, the bike should suck in a lot of ways, but it's really fun. The bike litteraly stopped traffic when I was riding it around town yesterday, and I've never owned a bike that has done that. It's not right for anything really, just a lot of fun.
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  29. #29
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    What WOuld it take to get a set of these plans for a 6'3 guy??

  30. #30
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    For suspension (with a crazy high head tube), you could always go the ol' Action-Tec/Headshok route.
    -Sean

  31. #31
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    I think this could be a great development for tall riders, although for serious MTB it would be better if a 32"-ish came first (not holding my breath).

    But even at 5'7", I want one. Would be awesome for cruising the beach, around town and on dirt roads. Even if I did have to point the stem backwards for proper fit!
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  32. #32
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    Any commercial plans with this?
    I could have custom one's of these pretty easily. I would love if the wheelsize took off, but a great amount of involvement and money would be required to accomplish that. There is no standard 36" size, not real ISO rim measurement. Look at the Coker tire deal. There are two tires out there, and even those don't work with each other! That's a perfect example of this. Like Cloxxki said, think if these tires had normal tread and were two ply? It'd be a different thing all together. That would be really fun. If standard parts could be developed that anyone could source and use, that would be something really cool.

    I have a question, do these accelerate as fast as a BMX bike since these wheels will have less RPMs? Also, are these just as good for a 5'2" person like the 29er is?
    The bike accelerates fairly well all things considered. Nothing really like a BMX bike though.

    The 8" brakes work really well. They feel like 6-7" brakes on a 29er. I am a bit leary of really getting on them, because of the spoke windup, it's noticable. I don't think that there is a way around that, not without using heavier spokes, and those are heavy. The brakes are perfectly fine for the application, maybe too good.

    I've had people as short as 5' 4" ride this. They don't fit, but they could. The bars would be generally high in relation to you seat, that's hard to get around.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlowBoy
    I think this could be a great development for tall riders, although for serious MTB it would be better if a 32"-ish came first (not holding my breath).

    But even at 5'7", I want one. Would be awesome for cruising the beach, around town and on dirt roads. Even if I did have to point the stem backwards for proper fit!
    32 inch wheels really don't exist at all. I think that the advantage to this wheelsize is that basic elements are all here, they just need to be refined. In some ways it's even easier than 29ers, because an okay tire already exists. That means that a mould somewhere exists, and a design could just be altered, not invented.

    The front end of the bike ends up being extreamly similar to a "normal" 29er. Somethgin as short as a 23.5" effective TT should be doable. I bet the standover height on this one is better that most 29ers, even little ones.
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  34. #34
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    HOT damn!!!!
    More than anything, I LOVE the innovation going on here. Keep pushing the envelope!
    29er's didn't "exist" a handful of years ago either, lest not forget. Pushing the edges of what we know and have become familiar with is the only way forward.
    I would love one with full fenders for the ultimate commuting machine. Stick an airhorn on the bars and watchout SUV's!

    Share some more detailed pics if you can.
    Thanks
    OGG
    Spinning and Grinning...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubert
    Right application? ...........
    Fun!!!

  36. #36
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    What about a 29/36?
    Or 26/36?
    Or 36/24/36?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by benwitt11
    There is no standard 36" size, not real ISO rim measurement. Look at the Coker tire deal. There are two tires out there, and even those don't work with each other! That's a perfect example of this.
    I have the "old" Airfoil rim and can run either tire without a problem. I have been running the Coker tire tubeless for four worn tires. The problem is with the rim maunfacturer. A batch awhile ago was too large even for the Coker tire, they cut them down and powder coated them (causing rim brake problems). This new "X" batch should of been rejected but wasn't. My thinking is Uni.com didn't want to step on any toes or have the rim maker cancel out completely. We definately need more tire selection.

  38. #38
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    Thanks for posting this!

    I've been "in the know" on this project for quite awhile now and you have no idea how hard it is for me to keep my mouth shut!

    This is too fun, really. It's like a Pugsley in that you don't really need one, but it makes you smile just looking at it so much you just gotta have one!

    I think this thing would be crazy fast on rolling courses like Iceman Coeth, Chequamegon, or the like. Gravel roads would fly by! Perhaps the ideal Trans Iowa machine?

    I don't know, but it's fun to think about, that's for sure!

    Can't wait to see it in the flesh this weekend!
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtsurfer
    I have the "old" Airfoil rim and can run either tire without a problem. I have been running the Coker tire tubeless for four worn tires. The problem is with the rim maunfacturer. A batch awhile ago was too large even for the Coker tire, they cut them down and powder coated them (causing rim brake problems). This new "X" batch should of been rejected but wasn't. My thinking is Uni.com didn't want to step on any toes or have the rim maker cancel out completely. We definately need more tire selection.
    You're absoloutly right. I didn't really want to tell the whole story, but this is my point exatcly. There needs to be a standard to really make this fly.
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  40. #40
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    Too much! Lets go 32"first.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvi
    Too much! Lets go 32"first.
    c'mon... i think it's awesome -- totally bleeding edge type of stuff. 29ers were such an easy transition because the wheel size standard existed... this thread reminded me of that fact. there would be so many challenges to overcome to get it into production -- settling a wheel size standard would just be one of them. but it's not impossible. heck, a lot of people still scoff at the thought of a 29er... just think how bunched up their panties would get if you pulled up to a ride on a friggin 36er! i love it!

    it's not the first bike you'd pull outta the shed every single day, but for sand/beach racing and a select handful of other conditions, i suspect it'd be incredible.

    nice work ben, and my thanks to you for sharing it with us. hopefully i'll get a chance to see it in-person soon.

    cheers,
    mg
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  42. #42
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    My GAWD people.....why don't we just STOP with all this big wheel nonsense and just get rolling on this high-tech Big wheel bike....

    It wasn't me

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubert
    Right application? ...........
    That bike would rock on this terrain.




    Good grief......what next.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  44. #44
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    I think I saw a clown on this bike at the circus right next to the waterskiing chipmonk.

  45. #45
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Howeler
    My GAWD people.....why don't we just STOP with all this big wheel nonsense and just get rolling on this high-tech Big wheel bike....

    now that's what i'm talkin' about...

  46. #46
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! 36" is to small

    I assume that 36" is too small try this. This would be awesome, and try new WB fork for this perhaps DH bike like this flanges, spokes hubs bigger stiffer beefier, stronger

  47. #47
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    An Action Tech fork might work well (light and stiff).

  48. #48
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    Is this a different version of the Dorothy?

  49. #49
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    I want one... just because!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    That bike would rock on this terrain.
    Good grief......what next.
    Let's talk when you've actually consumed the Kool-Aid of the 29er thing...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by benwitt11
    Hi guys. Here's a few teaser shots and some info on the 36er I've designed. I will be posting more in depth info after QBP's Frostbike this weekend. Enjoy

    My first impressions, it's more fun than I possibly imagined!
    Will the 36er be @ Frostbike this weekend?

    I remember when I first saw a Coker.
    They still around.
    If so Got a Web Site?

    thanks
    Norm

    See ya maybe @ Frostbike

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    I assume that 36" is too small try this. This would be awesome, and try new WB fork for this perhaps DH bike like this flanges, spokes hubs bigger stiffer beefier, stronger
    I love the bottom bracket clearance on that thing, but the stand over gives my boys the willies.
    Last edited by Titus Maximus; 02-13-2007 at 09:48 PM.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rensho
    Or 36/24/36?
    I've got one of those and it rides real nice.

  54. #54
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    Looks like a clowns bike.. ridiculous. Just get and ride man!

  55. #55
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    .

    that is the stupidest thing i have ever seen.

  56. #56
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    I swear, i'm forever 5 years behind the times. I just got a 29er and now this?!?!?!??!?!

    So, some people are commenting (complaining) about toe overlap with the front wheel on a 29er ~> Ben, is there any concern with knee overlap on the bike? (kinda joking ..... kinda not) Sorry if this was asked already, I kinda skipped a couple of pages.


    Rivet - (what's next) - you need to ask? Put a 29er wheel on the rear it so it'll accelerate better, weigh less and have decent tire options. Call it a 39er.
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  57. #57
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    http://wrower.pl/humor/zdjecia/020m.jpg
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  58. #58
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    that bike looks awesome. i've ridden (and dream of owning) a 36er unicycle. this bike seems like it'd be hella fun. there's a guy in NYC that does (used to anyway) do some intense stuff on a 36 unicycle, like ride up 5-6 stairs, tear up skateparks, etc. this bike may well be the ultimate enduro bike. unless it's windy. i'll have a coworker take some pics if it's at frostbike. unlucky me is stuck working.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    Let's talk when you've actually consumed the Kool-Aid of the 29er thing...
    Well, I don't have to eat dog crap to know I wouldn't like the taste.

    Seriously though, now it's just a matter of principle. When someone as loopy as Wasatch Walt on the F88 forum thinks this (see below) about the 29'er crowd, I'm pretty content not being a 29'er rider.

    Do you think that this sort of bizarre thinking is ENHANCED by the nut-freaks in the 29er Forum?
    Are these the D&D players of mtbing?
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    I'd REALLY like to see a bike built for someone my size using those wheels...I dare say it would look "normal." At least I'd look more "normal" on it.
    ditto!

  61. #61
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    Padre, Langen, then have one done! Like with 29", only wheels, fork and frame are 36"-specific. Frame and fork shouldn't be much more expensive than a 29"er (no need to use high-end lightweight solutions), tires cost a bit, so do rims, spokes need to be found and you'll want to use wide-ass hubs that are a bit rare.

  62. #62
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    This is so cool! Thanks for sharing, Ben.

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    I to had a chance to see a picture of this thing a bit earlier as welll and it got me excited. New stuff is always fun!

    That being said... I've seen talk on whether or not this idea sucks, but I've not seen talk on what it could be used for.

    My guess is I would start to hate life pretty fast on my east coast terrain riding a 36er, but who knows?

    So what is this good for? Surely not all forms of riding... The Pugsley shines in certain areas but sucks in others. Where is the 36er gonna shine?

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTO
    So, some people are commenting (complaining) about toe overlap with the front wheel on a 29er ~> Ben, is there any concern with knee overlap on the bike? (kinda joking ..... kinda not) Sorry if this was asked already, I kinda skipped a couple of pages.
    Knee overlap is something I've not thought of. It could concievably happen, but wouldbe unlikely. I've had some toe rubbing, but that was in big boots on flat pedals with a numb left foot in sub zero temps last night. It really hasn't been a problem.

    My biggest argument about toe overlap is this. Bikes have toe overlap. It happens. All of the road bikes I've ever owned have had toe overlap. My track bike has huge amounts of toe overlap. I would not change these bikes to eliminate the toe overlap, as it would change what I like about how the bikes handle. If toe over lap hasn't been an issue for me on a fixed gear track bike, why would it matter on my mtb? That said, it's a pretty easy thing to design around.
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  65. #65
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    In my visualizations, the 36" will shine in :
    - Overly steep hills, because of added traction and long chainstays that keep the front end planted. Down also. Just less manouevrable in the vertical direction (hops).
    - really high-speed low-grip corners
    - bumps, roots and frosen soil style
    - sucky terrain, high-rolling resistance. Like beach shores, cold mud.
    - commuting of course : smooth as can be, no suspension. When crossing curbs, fat tires can make up lots of time on road bikes that have to go through traffic lights and tight corners, I've found.
    - tailwind, high speed situations.
    - flowing singletrack, ride it like rollercoaster cart

    All the above, not in combination with super-sharp switchbacks. Now I haven't seen a sharp switchback in years, some may have a hard time poicking a ride without it.

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    Is this a different version of the Dorothy?
    Not at all, the two bikes are totally unrelated.

    Will the 36er be @ Frostbike this weekend?
    Yes, but not in an official capacity. I don't want to make anyone angry there, and I am talking to some people about not stepping on any toes. I will have it there, if only in the back of my van. I'd be more than willing to show people it. My cell number is 507 581 6198, just give me a call at the show and I'll let you know what's up.

    An Action Tech fork might work well (light and stiff).
    You're right, it might work well. I think that the trade off with any type of suspension is going to be in the handlebar height. Right now they are higher than many people would ride. It's perfect for me, super comfortable and easy on my back, but it's not going to work for everyone. Think of the same problem with super small 29ers. It's really quite similar.
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    In my visualizations, the 36" will shine in :
    - Overly steep hills, because of added traction and long chainstays that keep the front end planted. Down also. Just less manouevrable in the vertical direction (hops).
    - really high-speed low-grip corners
    - bumps, roots and frosen soil style
    - sucky terrain, high-rolling resistance. Like beach shores, cold mud.
    - commuting of course : smooth as can be, no suspension. When crossing curbs, fat tires can make up lots of time on road bikes that have to go through traffic lights and tight corners, I've found.
    - tailwind, high speed situations.
    - flowing singletrack, ride it like rollercoaster cart

    All the above, not in combination with super-sharp switchbacks. Now I haven't seen a sharp switchback in years, some may have a hard time poicking a ride without it.
    do you suspect that wheel weight and spoke windup and tyre limitations (4 ply for goodness sake at least at the moment) would have any impact on this

  68. #68
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    Why is this a sticky?
    Last edited by Go Kart Motzart; 02-14-2007 at 12:00 PM.

  69. #69
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    Sorry about the rant. Deleted.
    Last edited by benwitt11; 02-14-2007 at 12:50 PM.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by dRjOn
    do you suspect that wheel weight and spoke windup and tyre limitations (4 ply for goodness sake at least at the moment) would have any impact on this
    I expect that for such large wheels, V-brakes help spoke wind-up. I may well be wrong though. More spokes are my answer to every question, and it may be possible to add some spoke holes and upgrade to 48-spoke. Weight? Schmeight!

    4-ply casings, I would guess, make the tire roll slower than it might. Less compliant to soft soil, sinking deeper that it might. Heck, a the 36x2.2" slick may have little on a 26x2.35" Supermoto for rolling over soft beach shores.

    Wheel weight may hurt flickability a slight bit, and obvisously it will be felt when hammering the pedals to velocity increases when out of the saddle. These rims and tires are HEAVY, especially when deviding them by their size in inches. Remember, a proportionate Flyweight 330 tire would be around 450g in 36". real heavy yes.
    The vast size of the bike will make it more at home in terrain with more gentle turns, not the hiking switchback stuff.

    I'll repeat that I do not believe shear wheel weight has a great effect on momentum. Larger wheels roll better, and this is noticed most in no-pedaling situations over bumpy or slow terrain.
    If anything, for climbing the 36"er at 36lb may well climb a long hill faster (or at least easier) than a 26"er with heavy parts but light wheels to reach that 36lb.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMcG
    Holy Moly! I sure hope you have at least an 8" rotor on the front. I suspect that thing could pick up some serious speed going downhill!!!!
    You skipped physics 101 didn't you?

  72. #72
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    uhhh...nevermind...
    Last edited by None; 02-14-2007 at 05:28 PM.

  73. #73
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    Wasn't it MTBA

    Quote Originally Posted by benwitt11
    If toe over lap hasn't been an issue for me on a fixed gear track bike, why would it matter on my mtb? That said, it's a pretty easy thing to design around.
    that whined about tow overlap...citing something like having problems with tailwhips and Cross-ups on dirt jumps...

    I really dont get the toe lap thing either.

    If it is not clear, I think it is a cool idea what you have done. Perhaps it will not have the impact that 29ers did, but sometimes it is not about what pleases everyone. Not sure what others would want or expect from a bike like this...I think it would be a blast as a in town cruiser, or a commuter.
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  74. #74
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    benwitt11: If toe over lap hasn't been an issue for me on a fixed gear track bike, why would it matter on my mtb?

    Huh? Your single track must be awfully straight.
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious
    benwitt11: If toe over lap hasn't been an issue for me on a fixed gear track bike, why would it matter on my mtb?

    Huh? Your single track must be awfully straight.
    Huh???
    My track is oval.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious
    Huh? Your single track must be awfully straight.
    Clearly I ride my road bikes in a straight line, all the time, no turning, not at all. Seriously though, it's not that big of a deal.
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by benwitt11
    Knee overlap is something I've not thought of. It could concievably happen, but wouldbe unlikely. I've had some toe rubbing, but that was in big boots on flat pedals with a numb left foot in sub zero temps last night. It really hasn't been a problem.

    My biggest argument about toe overlap is this. Bikes have toe overlap. It happens. All of the road bikes I've ever owned have had toe overlap. My track bike has huge amounts of toe overlap. I would not change these bikes to eliminate the toe overlap, as it would change what I like about how the bikes handle. If toe over lap hasn't been an issue for me on a fixed gear track bike, why would it matter on my mtb? That said, it's a pretty easy thing to design around.
    Thanks for sharing your insight, Ben. 'Preciated, muchly.
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    You skipped physics 101 didn't you?

    Would not the wheel roll over rough terrain faster because the hits would occur at a point on the tire that is closer to horizontal, causing less backwards force (drag) on the bike?

    If this is true and the bike is faster going downhill the 8" rotors could be a better choice because they dissipate heat more effectively while offering more stopping power.

  79. #79
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    UCI will never aprove this! hahhaalol.

    that sorad guys. way to go!

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by benwitt11
    Hi guys. Here's a few teaser shots and some info on the 36er I've designed. I will be posting more in depth info after QBP's Frostbike this weekend. Enjoy!

    Wheelbase: 46 inches.
    Weight: 36 lbs, (with full Surly flask and holder!)
    Chainstay length: 520 mm
    Drivetrain: 3 X 6, 20-90 gear inches
    Standover height: 30.5 inches
    Top tube length: 24.5 inches

    Pic #1: A line up of 26", 29", and 36" wheels featuring the local Titus rep.
    Pic #2: Photo of the bike next to an 18" Salsa El Mariachi for size comparison.

    My first impressions, it's more fun than I possibly imagined!
    Woah.

  81. #81
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    very interesting bike alright. does it have severe toe overlap with the front tire? looks like maybe it does.
    the time is right for violent revolution

  82. #82
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    I've ridden a fixed cross check off-road with a bit of toe overlap. Not a huge deal as it was usually just a buzz on my tire in tight turns. If this 36er was fixed, maybe toe-overlap would be a bigger worry, but a few rides on tight singletrack would quickly teach most riders to turn with the pedals at 6 and 12 not 3 and 9.

  83. #83
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    Barely

    Quote Originally Posted by bikecop
    very interesting bike alright. does it have severe toe overlap with the front tire? looks like maybe it does.
    Actually Ben told me it's not an issue. He has some big earth pads for a guy his size, (13's, if I remember correctly) and he said his feet barely contacted the tire.

    For wheels this size, it's an amazing thing the bike works at all, and to have it actually exceed Ben's expectations is an amazing thing, if you give thought to it. Remember, he is the one that designed this beast!

    Wait until after this weekend. Some more folks will have had a chance to see this up close and perhaps even ride it. Hopefully some of them will chime in here with their impressions.

    Above all, this is about fun. Ben loves bikes and this one is a kick in the pants to ride, judging from his giddy phone call he gave me minutes after he had his first ride on it. I don't think it's about being the "next best thing", "a superior to _____" ,or anything of that nature. It's about, "can it be done and work" and FUN!
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  84. #84
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    With this bike being as unique and hot as it it, I suggest Ben accepts donations for a well-picked charity in return for demo rides on it.
    Like, $10 to poor children in Africa for a 30min ride? Come back late, pay a substantial fine ($20?). I'd rather rent such a bike than a stupid (ok, they';re great fun) go-cart...

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcd
    UCI will never aprove this! hahhaalol.
    I will have to bring it to at least one of the races this year. They're pretty low key around here, I do wonder what the officials would say though. Should be fun.

    Here are a few more pics, one of it in the jig, and a few close ups of the tires. They aren't the best, but remember what we had to start with. The tires with the angled side knobs were done for front/rear use. The one with the straight horizontal grooves is a rear specific tire.

    Cheers
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  86. #86
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    I love the offset seat tube! Just what I would have done to keep chainstay length somewhat in check with minimal fuzz. The slack actual seat post angle will cushion the ride even more.

    Great work on those tires. Looks like there's quite some weight to be saved with trimming :-)

  87. #87
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    Really cool. I want one.

    When you built the wheels did you use the fork as a trueing stand or did you rig something up?

    What's the width on the tires?
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    The wheel without tires fit in a Park trueing stand with 29er adaptors, just barely though. Forget about trying anything with the tire on though. The wheels were built long before the frame was done, I thought they would be harder than making the frame design work out. I built the Surly front/rear wheel first as an experiment. It was about as hard as building a normal wheel, which really surprised me. After that, we thought as long as the hard part was done, why not build the whole bike.

    The rims measure 30mm inside/36-37 outside. The tires are 58mm casing, 45mm tread, and 50mm high off the rim.
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by benwitt11
    The wheel without tires fit in a Park trueing stand with 29er adaptors, just barely though. Forget about trying anything with the tire on though. The wheels were built long before the frame was done, I thought they would be harder than making the frame design work out. I built the Surly front/rear wheel first as an experiment. It was about as hard as building a normal wheel, which really surprised me. After that, we thought as long as the hard part was done, why not build the whole bike.

    The rims measure 30mm inside/36-37 outside. The tires are 58mm casing, 45mm tread, and 50mm high off the rim.

    Do you know what? I could see you selling quite a few of these to tall guys...

    This could be the "next BIG thing"...


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    Neat build!

    I wondered when this would happen. I saw and rode a 36'er beach cruiser in San Deigo about 18mo ago. It was fun, and I figured someone would attempt an MTB sooner or later.

    Yea, my consern would be braking. With more rolling mass on the outside of the wheel, a larger diameter rotor and stronger spokes would be something to think about. It definately brings up some interesting design issues.

    It's great someone is pushing the limits like this. Bigger wheels do make a difference in terra handling. However there will always be that give and take in the weight department.

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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumset Rumble
    Would not the wheel roll over rough terrain faster because the hits would occur at a point on the tire that is closer to horizontal, causing less backwards force (drag) on the bike?

    If this is true and the bike is faster going downhill the 8" rotors could be a better choice because they dissipate heat more effectively while offering more stopping power.
    I read the original post again and never saw a mention of rough terrain. It looked like the typical it's bigger so it must go faster kind of post.

    My bad for not mindreading and guessing that part of it.

    Bottom line is yes, bigger rotors dissipate heat better and require less force for a given torque in stopping.

    But realize for a given bike speed, a larger wheel rotates at a slower angular rate. To roll out 5 meters in a second takes less revolutions.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman

    But realize for a given bike speed, a larger wheel rotates at a slower angular rate. To roll out 5 meters in a second takes less revolutions.
    Hmmm. Rate x Mass has nothing to do with appropriate stopping power? It's the rate of rotation of the wheel? Not sure I follow the argument.

  94. #94
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    In your thread title you promised pictures. So come on - cough up!!!

    I want to see the whole bike without the other bike in front of it. I'd also love to see two riders in single file from the side, one on a 26" and the other on this.

    Cheers,
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  95. #95
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    more more more! i love this

  96. #96
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    ... and if we just ...

    Crazzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeee bike !!!

    Sooooooo,what`s the official launch date of the 36er forum???


    AND, will height restrictions apply !?!


    You`re all mad, but in the very best way.


    Does the 36er require cool aide GRANDE?
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  97. #97
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    SWEET!

    That better be in the shop when I come by Ben....
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  98. #98
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    Two words:

    Diminishing Returns

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubert
    Right application? ...........

    crushing Pisgah downhills...

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Kart Motzart
    Why is this a sticky?
    Good question.

    Should it get moved to the manufacturer’s forum?

    It is the moderators fantasy bike!

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