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  1. #1
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    29" WHITE WHEEL BATTLE: STANS vs. AM CLASSIC

    Im considering going to white rims and making some adjustments to my Rigid SS.

    I have Stans Rims on my bikes (one with kings and one with DT 240's).

    I have questions:
    • Comments about durability of the AM Classics- RIMS and SS hubs? I weigh 200 with gear on and ride Rigid SS in Neast (live in PA)
    • I dont want white spokes, not really, so what choices do I have- pist pics of your builds- do I really have a good shoice withoug getting a bunch of anodized colored spokes?
    • Has anyone ridden both stans and am classics with comparative ride quality comments? I know spokes, hubs make a difference on the feel but ill go with general info....
    • Do the AM classic hubs seal well with tubless tires and rim tape or will i have to use tubes- that will be a killer.


    Help me decide...

  2. #2
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    Down with whitey!
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  3. #3
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    Personally, I wouldn't care if the white rims matched my bike so well that they won me an award. The white rims are powdercoated and weigh a fair bit more than the regular black anodized versions.

    As far as hubs go, the American Classics are nice enough, but their engagement is really lacking. Some people on the boards do not think engagement is important, but it is one feature I personally do not like to compromise on. The DT's are also a very nice option if you are looking for a light weight hub the will last for a long time. DT now offers their 36 step star ratchet upgrade kit which is very cool. People who don't mind lower engagement can have it, and those that want to double it can have their preferred setup.

    I just feel the American Classics are step down in terms of performance from either the Kings or the DT's.

  4. #4
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    engagement is VERY key with me on the SS. Kings work great. good to know.

    weight- ill look it up online....if its tiny i dont care really...if ita 1/2-1 lb thats another story..im not a weight weenie but i know what i know about wheels and weight and rolling resistance etc...

  5. #5
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    I just inquired about the weight differences in another thread. Apparently the weight increase per rim is around 30grams, but in another thread someone quoted up to 50-60grams (I have never seen any scale pics or weighed them myself so I can't comment from first hand experience...but the fact that Notubes doesn't list the weights for the powdercoated rims is probably a good indicator). I was considering the white Notubes rims until I found that out, black it is!

    Also using Kings for my next wheel build for the exact same reasons. Depending on your dropout system, you can ditch the fun-bolts on the King SS hubs and have it setup for standard QR which is lighter. If engagement is important, the hub is probably the best place in the wheel to carry the extra weight. I'd also go with a King + Stans combo, and avoid the AC route.

  6. #6
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    Have QR on the stand ss hubs already. this is good info too. thanks.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspace
    I was considering the white Notubes rims until I found that out, black it is!
    As nice as the white is, the weight of the powdercoat is just too much for the weight weenie in me.

    Depending on your dropout system, you can ditch the fun-bolts on the King SS hubs and have it setup for standard QR which is lighter.
    Depending how heavy your skewer is the fun-bolts can be lighter (they are hollow, after all) and they are certainly more secure feeling. Fun bolts = 42g - 6g for QR endcaps = 36g. There are not a lot of skewer options in that weight range that aren't bolt on already (then why not use funbolts, right?) or use Ti shafts (not as stiff).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmoote
    As nice as the white is, the weight of the powdercoat is just too much for the weight weenie in me.
    Plus the white rims cost more. I think it is against the mountain bike rules to pay more for something that adds weight.

  9. #9
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    The set of 355 29ers I have weighed were in the 460-470 gram range. That is a lot of weight for just white powdercoat. The 355's I weighed recently were 415-420gr. So the white samples I weighed were 40-50 grams heavier. For that extra weight you can have powdercoat, or you can have a stiffer rim in the Arch. I would take a black Arch that weighed 470-480 over a white 355 that weighed 460-470.

    The others advice below is very good about the Fun Bolts too. They are awesome.

  10. #10
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    I wan to chime in a point out I9 as a good hub contender. They engage better than CK (I have both and there is a difference) and rolls and rolls. They only gripe I have is i9 you requires you to purchase a cog, lock ring and spacers. With CK all comes inclusive.

  11. #11
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    These are going to be hard for me to pass on. Brand new from AC.

    http://www.amclassic.com/products/mt...s/overview.php

    Having a problem w/ the link. It is the new 29er Tubeless. Looks sweet in two colors!
    Last edited by BoomingSooner; 01-25-2010 at 06:18 AM.
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  12. #12
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    By the way, I think you could sneeze 30g.
    Me to my riding buddy, "Want to ride this afternoon?"
    Him, "I can't. I have to chop this guys foot off at 2".

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonw9
    Plus the white rims cost more. I think it is against the mountain bike rules to pay more for something that adds weight.
    +1 on that.

    Although I pay a $3.00 more a 3 Pack for colored BVD's as opposed to the cheaper tighty whiteys. I'll have to throw them on a digital scale and see if the black ones are actually lighter.

  14. #14
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    link does not work. your link suggestion has their site slammed...probably temporary.

    TD! indy.

  15. #15
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    better engagement thank CK's? i must not have paid attention to other posts on I9's. is this a qualified rave or opinion endorsed by at least 3 other posters? which is all it takes to become fact on mtbr!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomingSooner
    By the way, I think you could sneeze 30g.
    Boogers are not rotating weight!

  17. #17
    don't try this at home
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    i'm building up a set of white blunts and CK's. from what i've read they're comparable to flows, but cost less. i'm not a weight weenie, so 30-60 grams isn't gonna make much of difference either way. a sneeze, a haircut or even a shave will save me more weight then getting black rims, which would not match as well as white rims.
    will you rep me?

  18. #18
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    I agree with the Arch vs. 355 in white. If you are going to have the weight make it functional.

  19. #19
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    I've ridden the Stans rims exclusively for the last 3 years. Love them. Arch and Flow for me. I also have the I9 SS hubs, King SS hubs and 240 SS hubs. These have all performed very well over the years. Little to no service on all. You get what you pay for with these three. All laced to Stans wheels. I'm currently lacing another set of King / Flows. The I9 has the best engagement, followed by King, then DT.

    Weight wise, the DT is lighter by about 20 grams over the King. The I9 hub itself is a little heavier, but not much.

    AM Classics? Never ridden, never will. Too many bad reports by others over the years.
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  20. #20
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    this thread is def making me think about looking at the I9's. better engagement than kings...and it does not get much better....so when time comes...maybe ill pull the trigger. are the I9's durable like kings? little to no srevice is my style.

  21. #21
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    From Industry Nine's website:

    DRIVER : 120 point, 3 degree engagement, 6 pawl mechanism

    From Chris King's website:

    All of our rear hubs utilize our patented RingDrive™ engagement mechanism. RingDrive™ uses 72 engagement teeth on each drive ring.

    So it is the difference of an engagement point every 3 degrees for I9 vs. 5 degrees for Chris King. Similar weights between the two, similar price, although Chris King ISO SS disc hubs come with lockring, spacers and 18t cog.

  22. #22
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    Durability vs. service

    Both hubs are extremely durable. That being said, both are very high end, race quality hubsets which will possibly need servicing a couple of times per season depending on the enviroment and conditions in which they are being ridden.

    The Chris King hubs feature serviceable bearings with metal and rubber seals. The Ring Drive is also serviceable by a shop possessing the proper tools. There is a lot of argument over which is better, the Ring Drive of the CK which engages all 72 points at once, vs the I9's pawl based engagement. The CK freehub body also rolls on extremely durable needle bearings.

    The I9 hubs utilize high quality ABEC bearings (from what I have seen, maybe that has changed). While not serviceable, the ABEC's are very well sealed, and spin a little more freely than the CK bearings. Also since the I9's utilize traditional pawls, they need servicing a little more often than the Ring Drive. That being said, you can pull their hubs apart with an allen wrench and service the freehub mechanism in the peace of your own home.

    Both are nice, and have their advantages and disadvantages.

  23. #23
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    I agree with everything ia ss157 said. I can't stress enough that with King or I9, you get what you pay for. DT's are very nice and reliable, just lacking the engagement of the other two.

    I ride in AZ, so not a lot of mud, snow or ice to contend with. Stan's rims are bullet proof in the rocks we ride. Easy tubeless set-up is also nice.

    You can't go wrong with either.
    If you're lucky enough to be in the mountains,
    you're lucky enough.

  24. #24
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    i have ridden kings for 15 years and stans since they came out....the I9 love is impressive....

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmoote
    As nice as the white is, the weight of the powdercoat is just too much for the weight weenie in me.

    Depending how heavy your skewer is the fun-bolts can be lighter (they are hollow, after all) and they are certainly more secure feeling. Fun bolts = 42g - 6g for QR endcaps = 36g. There are not a lot of skewer options in that weight range that aren't bolt on already (then why not use funbolts, right?) or use Ti shafts (not as stiff).
    Yeah I am definitely going with the black after finding that out. Too much weight just for a colour. And to pay a slightly higher price for it...blah.

    My understanding is the fun-bolts alone, minus the caps, are 42g. How much heavier are the QR caps vs. the threaded bolt on caps? I can't find that data on the King site. I'll also be using KCNC Ti skewers (46g for the set) since I am not very heavy. I can't imagine using bolt-on hubs with the sliding dropouts (I have to remove the rear wheel to put the bike in my trunk a lot of times).

    A few guys here have had problems with the I9 drive mechanism failing. I wish I knew more details. I was originally considering them instead of Kings, but people seem to have a lot of faith in the ring-drive. I love trying new stuff, so I could see if you wanted to give the I9's a shot. I'm sure you would be pleased either way!

  26. #26
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    If you do go with I9, get the standard hub and build them standard spokes. I live in Asheville where I9's are made and the aluminum spokes are brittle. Nick them on a rock and they are done the next time you put any side load on them.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspace
    My understanding is the fun-bolts alone, minus the caps, are 42g. How much heavier are the QR caps vs. the threaded bolt on caps? I can't find that data on the King site. I'll also be using KCNC Ti skewers (46g for the set) since I am not very heavy. I can't imagine using bolt-on hubs with the sliding dropouts (I have to remove the rear wheel to put the bike in my trunk a lot of times).
    The HD axle is threaded for either the funbolts or the QR endcaps. To use the funbolts, you remove the endcaps (-6g) and screw in the funbolts (42g). If you have an 8mm hex key handy, removing the wheel is not really a big deal, but I guess it's a tiny bit slower than QR. You don't need to remove them or anything, just back them off a few turns and the wheel can drop out like with a QR.

    The KCNC skewers are awesome and I use them for road/cross. Though I would "trust" them for the mtb, in the sense that I think they'll keep the wheel on, I prefer the more solid attachment of a bolt on hub as long as it does not come with a large weight penalty. It is just one way of reducing torsional flex in the rear end.

  28. #28
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    I just got a set of the AC wheels (in black, not cool enough to roll white). I didnt want to use the ac rear hub so im just going to tear it down and build it back up with my i9 ss hub. rims weigh 420g and are 21mm wide inside and 22 mm deep. set weighed in at 1618g stock. it gained a little weight (1716g) with the i9ss but i think it is worth it. ill post some pics when i get it tensioned.

  29. #29
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    I would be really interested in seing fugures about I9 hubs weights !

    Also, is the geometry good (for the cassette version, are the spokes really close to the biggest cog ?
    Frenchspeaking 29"ers community site http://VingtNeuf.org

  30. #30
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    I have white stans flows on my 29er and white EX1750's on my Nicolai , i do watch the weight a bit but wouldnt take black rims when i wanted white over 30g per rim (Stans)

    I have said before , good tyre choice can way over compensate for the rims you wanted in white . I have Nobby Nic evo snakeskins on my AM , done tubeless with only rim tape and stans fluid . My 29er are flows tubeless with rim tape and fluid only , with Racing Ralph evos .

    Some people are getting black rims because of the weight and putting 800g+ tyres on them, go with the colour you want and chose your tyres carefully . Also some stuff way too much stand fluid in them too , the difference between putting 80ml (80g approx) and putting 110ml (110g approx) ... theres your 30g as its only around 30g penalty between black and white stans rims.

    Go with the whiteys
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  31. #31
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    But what happens if you choose black rims, and choose your tires carefully?

    You solution seems common, like a person that gets black rims also randomly installs the heaviest tire the stumble upon. I think people who take into account the weight of the powdercoat will also consider tire weight, don't you?

    To each their own, I am just surprised to see the same people who consider running 3 ti bolts on their rotors will pay extra for heavier white rims.

  32. #32
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    The i9 ss hub (for j bend spokes) weiged 363g with the qr axle. A little heavier than the king ss but you get the option of all the axle possibiltys and I don't need a special tool to service it.

    I never put a cassette on the wheels. Never intended to so I can't comment on the relative distance between cassete and spokes.

  33. #33
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    cruso414 - I've ridden the I9's in the rocks of AZ for about 3 years. Yes, I've dinged spokes here and there. I've bounced rocks off them and crashed. NEVER have I broken one. Maybe I'm just lucky...
    If you're lucky enough to be in the mountains,
    you're lucky enough.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by azjonboy
    cruso414 - I've ridden the I9's in the rocks of AZ for about 3 years. Yes, I've dinged spokes here and there. I've bounced rocks off them and crashed. NEVER have I broken one. Maybe I'm just lucky...
    yeah I'd say you are pretty lucky if you've never broken a spoke in 3 years.

  35. #35
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    I've dinged a few, but haven't broken one. I can say they don't stand up to extreme heat. We had a house fire last month and they were unrecognizable in the rubble. I don't think the warranty will cover that, though. Rats!
    If you're lucky enough to be in the mountains,
    you're lucky enough.

  36. #36
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    I am your weight and rode my ss rigid with my am classics wheelset. They lasted just over a month!!! I hit a small rock with the front tire with 35 psi and put a big dent in the rim. I had to tighten the hubs after every ride because they kept loosening up.

    At your weight i would never consider an off the shelf wheelset. Maybe I9's but.....

    I built up a pair of ck hubs to the salsa semi's. I have hit huge rocks many times that have instantly destroyed tubes. I swear under my breath as i lift up the bike and spin the wheel to see how out of true it is. They are almost a year old and are dead on and could pass for new.

    Quote Originally Posted by jomissa
    Im considering going to white rims and making some adjustments to my Rigid SS.

    I have Stans Rims on my bikes (one with kings and one with DT 240's).

    I have questions:
    • Comments about durability of the AM Classics- RIMS and SS hubs? I weigh 200 with gear on and ride Rigid SS in Neast (live in PA)
    • I dont want white spokes, not really, so what choices do I have- pist pics of your builds- do I really have a good shoice withoug getting a bunch of anodized colored spokes?
    • Has anyone ridden both stans and am classics with comparative ride quality comments? I know spokes, hubs make a difference on the feel but ill go with general info....
    • Do the AM classic hubs seal well with tubless tires and rim tape or will i have to use tubes- that will be a killer.


    Help me decide...

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomissa
    Im considering going to white rims and making some adjustments to my Rigid SS.

    I have Stans Rims on my bikes (one with kings and one with DT 240's).

    I have questions:
    • Comments about durability of the AM Classics- RIMS and SS hubs? I weigh 200 with gear on and ride Rigid SS in Neast (live in PA)
    • I dont want white spokes, not really, so what choices do I have- pist pics of your builds- do I really have a good shoice withoug getting a bunch of anodized colored spokes?
    • Has anyone ridden both stans and am classics with comparative ride quality comments? I know spokes, hubs make a difference on the feel but ill go with general info....
    • Do the AM classic hubs seal well with tubless tires and rim tape or will i have to use tubes- that will be a killer.


    Help me decide...
    Here's a few pics and another vote for Kings on white Stan's. Tubeless set-up is great.
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  38. #38
    What It Be ?
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    I'm building up a Tang Air9. The LBS just ordered my rims. Going with Archs in White. I can deal with the weight. Want something different.

  39. #39
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    +1 white is awesome. i actually had some powdercoated before stan offered it.

    edit:the image was tiny.

  40. #40
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    White sure is purty. Those pictures are making me regret my sudden temporary weight-weenieness when I ordered black yesterday.

  41. #41
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    You know, I was reading this thread intently when I realized something.

    60 GRAMS IS 2 OUNCES.

    On a 25-pound bike, that's 1/200th of the total weight.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnee
    You know, I was reading this thread intently when I realized something.

    60 GRAMS IS 2 OUNCES.

    On a 25-pound bike, that's 1/200th of the total weight.

    You know, thats a good point. He should definitely get the black ones.

  43. #43
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    thats a nice ewr setup- nicer than the lime greens ive seen.....the black and gold setup is nice too but i like that one. you can drop it off at my house.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnee
    You know, I was reading this thread intently when I realized something.

    60 GRAMS IS 2 OUNCES.

    On a 25-pound bike, that's 1/200th of the total weight.
    As many have pointed out before me, that's 60g of rotational weight, and that's a lot.
    If you race, or performance oriented, black is the way to go.

    However, if those are not your priorities and good look counts more than weight, then white is a pretty choice...

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomissa
    thats a nice ewr setup- nicer than the lime greens ive seen.....the black and gold setup is nice too but i like that one. you can drop it off at my house.
    Thanks for the complement on the bike but sorry for the crappy pics. I'm strugglin to get pics in good image quality from my computer to the site. I edited the size down to "best for web" and they came out quite fuzzy. When I tried 50% it was still twice the file size as what's allowed. Any thoughts?
    I'm going to do some test uploads on the "submit questions/problems" page and see if I can figure the right size to capture the best view.

  46. #46
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    ^ MTBR is resizing them down poorly most likely. Try hosting them elsewhere and inputting the image urls by clicking on the yellow image button (rather than attachments). Something like Picasweb or Flickr or Imagebank would work well. Flickr would be my recommendation. You can upload the full res ones there, and it will automatically have it available to you in a few different sizes to post up.

  47. #47
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    Suggestion? A better editing software. Photoshop should do the trick...

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspace
    ^ MTBR is resizing them down poorly most likely. Try hosting them elsewhere and inputting the image urls by clicking on the yellow image button (rather than attachments). Something like Picasweb or Flickr or Imagebank would work well. Flickr would be my recommendation.

    I use photobucket, then make a clickable thumbnail:




    I don't think he needs to run out and buy PS just to resize an image. Especially when gimp is a viable alternative, and free!

  49. #49
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    Funny, I just looked at this to see why this thread was still here. I would pay extra on a wheelset NOT to have white. I would actually prefer a retro silver, a black, or any other anodized color than having white paint on the rims.

  50. #50
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    Screw GIMP or Photoshop, just upload somewhere like Flickr which has a good resizing engine built in and let it do the work wihtout having to mess around with software.

    Quote Originally Posted by canyonrat
    Funny, I just looked at this to see why this thread was still here. I would pay extra on a wheelset NOT to have white. I would actually prefer a retro silver, a black, or any other anodized color than having white paint on the rims.
    I would love to see more silver rims. ZTR rims in silver would be awesome!

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