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  1. #1
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    Turner Burner, AM 27.5

    So I got my Burner built up and have some saddle time on it now.

    The quality of the frame is apparent from the moment you pull it out of the box. The welds, machine work and finish are all spot on. I really like the zip tieless cable mount system and have become such a fan of the 142 axle that I hope to never be stuck with a q/r again. The bushings ensure a long pivot life and each one has a zerk for ease of maintenance.

    On the trail this bike feels very good. It is very stiff laterally and the DW suspension is excellent both up and down the trail. I have found it an easy transition (so far) from my 16" wheels to the 27.5". The bike does not have the sluggish feel of a 29er, much more nimble and agile. The Burner holds an edge in off camber corners noticeably better than what I am used to. It seems to roll through the rough with more ease than my 26er, but I really need to spend more time comparing the two.

    I still have my 26" 5Spot and plan on riding the Burner and Spot back to back on the same trails for the next six months or so. The plan being to keep notes and offer insight to riders on the fence about the new wheel size. Is the 27.5 going to displace 26" wheels? For riders, like myself, who like aggressive riding in challenging terrain better served by 26 or 27.5?

    Anyway, hereís the bike specs:

    2013 Turner Burner size large
    Fox Float CTD evo rear shock - may be soon replaced with a Cane Creekl DB Air
    Fox Float 34 CTD at 150mm - for now
    Mostly XO drivetrain, brakes etc
    I9 wheels laced to cheap Chinese carbon hoops
    CB Cronolog (I know, I know)
    Havoc carbon bar
    ODI Ruffians - a must have for me.
    Schwalbe HD tires

    Think thatís about it.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turner Burner, AM 27.5-burner-2.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-burner-3.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-burner-6.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-burner-detail-2.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-burner7.jpg  


  2. #2
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    Nice bike. I was considering a Turner but Dave's still too reluctant to build anything for people who require chainguide/bashguard protection (no tabs). Wish he would.

  3. #3
    dwt
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    Burner on my list for sure. I don't need the travel on some of the other 650b bikes such as Tracer 27.5.

    The fact that you can actually GET one helps of course. TS for the companies that under produced 2013.

    Keep us up to date on your impressions vs. the 5 Spot
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostWind View Post
    Nice bike. I was considering a Turner but Dave's still too reluctant to build anything for people who require chainguide/bashguard protection (no tabs). Wish he would.
    The Burner has ISCG 05 tabs...

  5. #5
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    While some like stealth, some of us like it rawww




    No ride time yet and the weather isn't cooperating for this weekend.
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

  6. #6
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    Very Nice!! Can't wait to hear how you like it. Very clean looking ride.

  7. #7
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    What is the weight?

  8. #8
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    Mine sits a 29# even.

  9. #9
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    Soulrider - very nice build. Where were those pics taken.......looks very familiar. Do you plan a comprehensive review once you get some miles on those tires?

    .

  10. #10
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider View Post
    Mine sits a 29# even.
    Just over 29lb for my XL.
    7.38 for frame, shock, seatpost collar and rear axle.
    13.25" BB
    47" WB
    Last edited by 6thElement; 01-11-2013 at 03:42 PM.
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life View Post
    Soulrider - very nice build. Where were those pics taken.......looks very familiar. Do you plan a comprehensive review once you get some miles on those tires?

    .

    I'm in the Sierra foothills of Nor Cal, those photos were taken in the American river canyon near Auburn. I have a fondness for the area as I have been riding bikes in that particular canyon for more than twenty years now.

    I do plan on a very comprehensive review of the Burner as well as comparing it to my 26" 5Spot. I will start a separate thread for the long term review.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement View Post
    Just over 29lb for my XL.
    7.38 for frame, shock, seatpost collar and rear axle.
    13.5" BB
    47" WB
    13.5 bb, interesting as mine came out right at 13.25

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider View Post
    13.5 bb, interesting as mine came out right at 13.25
    1Soulrider, is yours a proto? I think they had lower BB than the final production.

    Very nice bikes, I'll be looking forward to your reviews as I'm on a '11 Spot and "thinking" about a Burner.

    I was curious about the WB too, 47" was for what frame size?(edit: nevermind, see it's an XL which explains those 3") Don't see WB specs on the turner website. My spot is 44" (size=medium, w/160 fork and ZS), and the Burner looks longer in proportions. Curious how it goes around tight switchbacks.

  14. #14
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    My bad, double-checked and it's 13.25", right on spec. Must have had a bad angle on my dangle when I measured before
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

  15. #15
    vto
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    Awesome ride. Looks bad ass murdered out with a splash of red. Looking forward to your review and comparison. I am for sure getting 650b. Just need to be sold on which one.

  16. #16
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    Tracer 275 is adjustable 5.5 or 6"

    The angles are similar but the standover is better on the Burner, seems lighter too.
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Burner on my list for sure. I don't need the travel on some of the other 650b bikes such as Tracer 27.5.

    The fact that you can actually GET one helps of course. TS for the companies that under produced 2013.

    Keep us up to date on your impressions vs. the 5 Spot

  17. #17
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    Looking forward to your detailed review.

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    Nice Burner soulrider. I'm going to be near Auburn at the end of the month, maybe I'll see you around.

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    Nice

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by deckaudio View Post
    Nice Burner soulrider. I'm going to be near Auburn at the end of the month, maybe I'll see you around.
    Let me know if you want to ride while you are in town.

  21. #21
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    Nice looking ride!!

    Still not sure 650b is the way of the future....

  22. #22
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Mayhem View Post
    Still not sure 650b is the way of the future....
    Not sure what you mean by that. What it is a 3rd choice, one that makes a lot of sense in the 5"-6" travel Trail/AM bike arena. The Burner is a real tasty sounding trail bike, and looks like it could be a poster child for 650b.

    As far as future, there will be 3 sizes as far as is foreseeable. Some companies are tending toward dumping 26", but that seems a tad radical at this point.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Not sure what you mean by that. What it is a 3rd choice, one that makes a lot of sense in the 5"-6" travel Trail/AM bike arena. The Burner is a real tasty sounding trail bike, and looks like it could be a poster child for 650b.

    As far as future, there will be 3 sizes as far as is foreseeable. Some companies are tending toward dumping 26", but that seems a tad radical at this point.
    I agree with your assesment of the situation.

    What I mean by my statement is this; almost everyone in the industry I talk to lately is claiming that 26" is dead and 650b will replace 26" on everything from trail to dh bikes.

  24. #24
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    So far the Burner is treating me very well. Took the bike out to hit a narrow trail with lots of twists and turns to gauge any sluggish turning characteristics. Iím enjoying the extra traction in the corners that the larger wheels provide. Only in one case was the handling different from expected. This was a tight high speed turn with a little edge at the outside of the worn path of travel. If you commit and stay off the brakes you can just catch the edge and use it as a mini burm and rail the corner. I was a little tentative at the approach and didn't lock in properly. With more commitment it probably would have been fine, but I noticed it required a bit more 'work' in this case to get the results I was after.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turner Burner, AM 27.5-tb-2.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-icey-2.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-trail-veiw.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-tb-3.jpg  


  25. #25
    dwt
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    Dumb question: what is the frame color? In some of your pics, it looks like black. In the last two, silver?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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    That was 6thElement's Burner...the silver one.

    Great pics 1soulrider..thanks for them and the report.

    Personally I'm a little more partial to deckaudio's burnt orange color. But all three, great looking bikes without a doubt.

    Now my turn for dumb question. I'll preface it with ---I'm more a runner guy then a bike guy so go easy..

    Is the Burner considered more a XC or Trail bike...or a combination of both ? Will the Burner do my steep 3-4 mile fireroad climbs as efficiently as my Truth ?
    Verdugo Mountains Near Tongva Peak - YouTube

    I'm guessing much better from what I've been reading.

    I'm 59 and not at all into bombing down the descent or racing. I would like a more stable ride for the rocky, sandy, rutted spots. Basically I'm in this for crosstraining from my running, getting my heart rate up on the climb and being safer on the long descents.

    Maybe the high tech Turner design is overkill for a guy like me. Perhaps just a 29 or 650B hardtail (Potts/Ericksen are what I'm considering) would be more suited for my purposes.

    Thanks guys and sorry for the OT.
    Last edited by Dave Ferris; 01-14-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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  27. #27
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    I'm looking to get out and test mine as soon as the weather cooperates. My last full sus XC bike was a Niner Jet9 RDO used for 100 mile races, so I'm definitely after something which can climb as mine might get used for the occasional 100 miler when I go on roadtrips.
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Piano Guy View Post
    That was 6thElement's Burner...the silver one.

    Great pics 1soulrider..thanks for them and the report.

    Personally I'm a little more partial to deckaudio's burnt orange color. But all three, great looking bikes without a doubt.

    Now my turn for dumb question. I'll preface it with ---I'm more a runner guy then a bike guy so go easy..

    Is the Burner considered more a XC or Trail bike...or a combination of both ? Will the Burner do my steep 3-4 mile fireroad climbs as efficiently as my Truth ?
    Verdugo Mountains Near Tongva Peak - YouTube

    I'm guessing much better from what I've been reading.

    I'm 59 and not at all into bombing down the descent or racing. I would like a more stable ride for the rocky, sandy, rutted spots. Basically I'm in this for crosstraining from my running, getting my heart rate up on the climb and being safer on the long descents.

    Maybe the high tech Turner design is overkill for a guy like me. Perhaps just a 29 or 650B hardtail (Potts/Ericksen are what I'm considering) would be more suited for my purposes.

    Thanks guys and sorry for the OT.
    I have not ridden the Ellsworth Truth, but to answer your question I would say the Burner is more trail-oriented but has an XC-ish taste because of the very efficient DW-Link suspension. What I mean by that, is the bike is super versatile as a "do-it-all" bike. If I go on any vacation, the Burner is what I'll be bringing with me so I can enjoy the climbs and the descents wherever I go. The bike does do a great job for those long mileage climbs that take 45 minutes or more, which I have done quite a bit of on the Burner. The DW-Link is great for being able to stand-up on those long climbs as well since there isn't any suspension bob. The 27.5" wheels also add to the overall gripping/roll-ability over rocks/roots and make the bike feel more efficient than a 26" bike and also makes the bike feel like it has more top-end speed. I feel that there is more overall speed carried with the larger wheels with the same amount of effort used on a 26" bike. Have you ever ridden a road bike and noticed the higher top-end speed because of the larger wheels? That's what I'm talking about.

    A side benefit of the longer travel on the Burner is it will increase your comfortability on the downhills and possibly help with your downhill confidence.

    I haven't built up my 29" full-suspension XC race bike yet and probably won't be building it up until April, so I plan on using my Turner for both trail riding and some of the early season XC races. I am probably going to put some lighter tires, like Racing Ralphs, for some of the early season XC races.

    Thanks for the props!
    Joe

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    double post

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    Quote Originally Posted by deckaudio View Post
    I have not ridden the Ellsworth Truth, but to answer your question I would say the Burner is more trail-oriented but has an XC-ish taste because of the very efficient DW-Link suspension. What I mean by that, is the bike is super versatile as a "do-it-all" bike. If I go on any vacation, the Burner is what I'll be bringing with me so I can enjoy the climbs and the descents wherever I go. The bike does do a great job for those long mileage climbs that take 45 minutes or more, which I have done quite a bit of on the Burner. The DW-Link is great for being able to stand-up on those long climbs as well since there isn't any suspension bob. The 27.5" wheels also add to the overall gripping/roll-ability over rocks/roots and make the bike feel more efficient than a 26" bike and also makes the bike feel like it has more top-end speed. I feel that there is more overall speed carried with the larger wheels with the same amount of effort used on a 26" bike. Have you ever ridden a road bike and noticed the higher top-end speed because of the larger wheels? That's what I'm talking about.

    A side benefit of the longer travel on the Burner is it will increase your comfortability on the downhills and possibly help with your downhill confidence.

    I haven't built up my 29" full-suspension XC race bike yet and probably won't be building it up until April, so I plan on using my Turner for both trail riding and some of the early season XC races. I am probably going to put some lighter tires, like Racing Ralphs, for some of the early season XC races.

    Thanks for the props!
    Joe
    Thanks Joe for the detailed response.

    Yes these Verdugos are right behind my house and the trailhead is only 1.7 miles from my doorstep. So consequently this is where I do probably 80% of my Mtn. biking. There are other great places around LA but traffic being what it is all the time (sucky), I'm less inclined to stray out of my hood.

    Yes my climbs are 45 minutes to an hour, depending on which trail I take, and as you can somewhat see from the vid, pretty sustained.

    I'd very much like to demo a Burner. There's a LBS down in Orange Co. that the Turner guys referred me to. I'm going to try and get it up here on my terrain to see how it fares. I'm sure it will be great though after reading your and soulrider's review of it.

    I like that concept of-- "increase your comfortability on the downhills and possibly help with your downhill confidence".

    Thanks again....and apologies to 1soulrider, didn't mean to hijack your thread.

    Dave
    Last edited by Dave Ferris; 01-14-2013 at 03:41 PM. Reason: added thought
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    Jazz Piano Guy: if all you are doing is fireroads, i think the burner would be a bit of overkill. if you want more stability and security on fireroad decents, maybe a shorter FS suspension (4") 29er would be better choice (FS because at 59 myself hardtail is pretty tough on the back). that being said, a more capable bike like the burner (it's more trail-all mountain than trail-XC) will open up a whole other world of mountain bike riding (single track) that you may have been hesistant to tackle because of the limitations of your older bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starre View Post
    Jazz Piano Guy: if all you are doing is fireroads, i think the burner would be a bit of overkill. if you want more stability and security on fireroad decents, maybe a shorter FS suspension (4") 29er would be better choice (FS because at 59 myself hardtail is pretty tough on the back). that being said, a more capable bike like the burner (it's more trail-all mountain than trail-XC) will open up a whole other world of mountain bike riding (single track) that you may have been hesistant to tackle because of the limitations of your older bike.
    This is good insight here. But demo one if you can, and being in SoCal you should be able to find one for sure.

  33. #33
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    The Truth is no slouch

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Piano Guy View Post
    That was 6thElement's Burner...the silver one.

    Great pics 1soulrider..thanks for them and the report.

    Personally I'm a little more partial to deckaudio's burnt orange color. But all three, great looking bikes without a doubt.

    Now my turn for dumb question. I'll preface it with ---I'm more a runner guy then a bike guy so go easy..

    Is the Burner considered more a XC or Trail bike...or a combination of both ? Will the Burner do my steep 3-4 mile fireroad climbs as efficiently as my Truth ?
    Verdugo Mountains Near Tongva Peak - YouTube

    I'm guessing much better from what I've been reading.

    I'm 59 and not at all into bombing down the descent or racing. I would like a more stable ride for the rocky, sandy, rutted spots. Basically I'm in this for crosstraining from my running, getting my heart rate up on the climb and being safer on the long descents.

    Maybe the high tech Turner design is overkill for a guy like me. Perhaps just a 29 or 650B hardtail (Potts/Ericksen are what I'm considering) would be more suited for my purposes.

    Thanks guys and sorry for the OT.
    I loved mine a lot before going the homer (ie: turner) route. Both bikes have pretty steep ST angles so theyre going to climb about the same. But the DW linkage will ride higher in its travel while climbing seated. linkage wise the DW will remain will remain active under braking instead of squatting. The burners HT angle is pretty slack compared to the truth. This will slow the steering making the bike more stable and forgiving. Im a couple of years younger then you and even though ive slowed down a bit i like my bikes handling to be predicable and the bike to feel stable. The guys at the path are very knowledgeable and theyll make sure the bikes set up correctly for you. Let us know how the demo goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starre View Post
    Jazz Piano Guy: if all you are doing is fireroads, i think the burner would be a bit of overkill. if you want more stability and security on fireroad decents, maybe a shorter FS suspension (4") 29er would be better choice (FS because at 59 myself hardtail is pretty tough on the back). that being said, a more capable bike like the burner (it's more trail-all mountain than trail-XC) will open up a whole other world of mountain bike riding (single track) that you may have been hesistant to tackle because of the limitations of your older bike.
    Good points, agreed.

  35. #35
    dwt
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    [QUOTE=Jazz Piano

    I'm more a runner guy then a bike guy so go easy..
    I'm 59 and not at all into bombing down the descent or racing. I would like a more stable ride for the rocky, sandy, rutted spots. Basically I'm in this for crosstraining from my running, getting my heart rate up on the climb and being safer on the long descents.
    .[/QUOTE]

    A lot of guys/ girls in your age group (aka boomers) used to be runners, before their feet, ankles, knees, and hips started to fall apart from the pounding. Then they switched to on and off road cycling, easier on those joints. Of course there is the risk of crashes. My wife and I both quit running before we hit 50 and never looked back. She rides on the road only. I quit running around 40 and got hooked on mtb for it's own sake: the physical and athletic challenges, the thrill, the just plain fun. I got into road biking later as training for mtb. Road has its own rewards, but it pales in comparison to mtb. Road for fitness, mtb for fun and fitness

    Now that we are off topic anyway, as your elder, my unsolicited advice is to quit running before it's too late, get a road bike, join a club, and hammer with the big dogs. You'll get your endorphin highs trust me. As far as mtb, if you are going to get a quality trail bike like the Burner. you must learn to ride it up fast, down fast and across fast, going over and through rocks, logs ledges etc. That is the fun part and what a trailbike is for.

    If your idea if mtb is simply training, you want a hardtail 29'er, not a 27.5" full sus. trailbike.
    Last edited by dwt; 01-15-2013 at 06:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    A lot of guys/ girls in your age group (aka boomers) used to be runners, before their feet, ankles, knees, and hips started to fall apart from the pounding. Then they switched to on and off road cycling, easier on those joints. Of course there is the risk of crashes. My wife and I both quit running before we hit 50 and never looked back. She rides on the road only. I quit running around 40 and got hooked on mtb for it's own sake: the physical and athletic challenges, the thrill, the just plain fun. I got into road biking later as training for mtb. Road has its own rewards, but it pales in comparison to mtb. Road for fitness, mtb for fun and fitness

    Now that we are off topic anyway, as your elder, my unsolicited advice is to quit running before it's too late, get a road bike, join a club, and hammer with the big dogs. You'll get your endorphin highs trust me. As far as mtb, if you are going to get a quality trail bike like the Burner. you must learn to ride it up fast, down fast and across fast, going over and through rocks, logs ledges etc. That is the fun part and what a trailbike is for.

    If your idea if mtb is simply training, you want a hardtail 29'er, not a 27.5" full sus. trailbike.
    Thanks for the advice dwt but asking someone like me to stop running is akin to asking most here to give up mtn. biking...it ain't gonna happen. My passion is being a "runner'.. I do have a nice road bike. I like it a lot but like most here my preference is away from the cars and on the trails....both biking and running.

    I'm in my 32nd year with over 60,000 total miles run and still going strong. I used to race very competitively but lost the urge a few years back and now just run for fun and keep a high level of fitness. I'm certainly not someone like Frank Shorter or Ed Whitlock but I'm hangin' in there quite well thank you. To be succinct about it...good genes aside, I've simply done the "right things" the past 20 years or so to stay in the ballgame when many of my friends (like you said) have had to stop. It's not easy and actually takes more intelligence with regard to recovery time, diet and running specific strength training at the gym, then anything to stay with it. This is where the bike a couple days a week enters into the picture for me. Hopefully it will help keep me being able to continue running at a quality level into my 60s, 70s and God willing beyond..

    I just did 15 on the road this past Sun and have 18 planned on the trails this Sun with some friends. I could go on about all the marathons and countless other races/training I've done and continue to do, but I think I've taken this thread ot enough.

    Suffice to say, yes the bike is a crosstraining training tool so maybe the Burner isn't the right thing for me. Maybe I should stick with my original plan of a high quality 29er like the Potts or Ericksen.

    I respect all the advice from you, again deckaudio, starre, jm and soulrider. You're all very knowledgable and it's appreciated. I'm glad I asked the *dumb question*.
    Last edited by Dave Ferris; 01-15-2013 at 10:09 PM.
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    actually one of the better threads - some real discussion about mtb vs road vs running and enjoying sport to keep fit at our different age points. i'd just like to add what dwt and 1soulrider and the rest of the guys would recommend and that is to rent or loan out a couple of different bikes and see what 'seems' gets the job done. the only downside again in my opinion is the fact that as opposed to road riding, your skill levels constantly improve in MTB, albeit slowly, and the bike you start with is not necessarily the best tool later on. enjoy!


    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Piano Guy View Post
    ......but I think I've taken this thread ot enough.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Piano Guy View Post
    Thanks for the advice dwt but asking someone like me to stop running is akin to asking most here to give up mtn. biking...it ain't gonna happen. My passion is being a "runner'..
    I know your type intimately. Like my wife's 55 y/o friend, president of a local running club. She was good back in the day, but now has no knee cartilage and either runs in pain or with cortisone. Or my 67 y/o neighbor who MUST run even if it means hobbling with a grimace
    at a slow jog.

    Sounds like OCD type mental illness to me. So addicted to a particular form of exercise that they do it even though it is not good for them and actually hurting them. Like tri-geeks who look and perform fit, but damage their hearts from over work

    Excercize should be fun and healthy. That's why we have cycling in general and mtb specifically. Though gotta admit the crash factor. I (knock on wood) have never had a bone breaking crash, but frequently come home with cuts and bruises. My wife shakes her head and says you're injured again. I tell her an injury is something so severe you can't ride. If I can ride, I'm hurting but not "injured".

    Dang, that sounds OCD too. Oh well...
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I know your type intimately. Like my wife's 55 y/o friend, president of a local running club. She was good back in the day, but now has no knee cartilage and either runs in pain or with cortisone. Or my 67 y/o neighbor who MUST run even if it means hobbling with a grimace
    at a slow jog.
    Everyone's different. And on the whole, a runner's knees are stronger than a pure cyclist's.

    Besides, all my long runs (10+) are done on trails these days.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I know your type intimately. Like my wife's 55 y/o friend, president of a local running club. She was good back in the day, but now has no knee cartilage and either runs in pain or with cortisone. Or my 67 y/o neighbor who MUST run even if it means hobbling with a grimace
    at a slow jog.

    Sounds like OCD type mental illness to me. So addicted to a particular form of exercise that they do it even though it is not good for them and actually hurting them. Like tri-geeks who look and perform fit, but damage their hearts from over work

    Excercize should be fun and healthy. That's why we have cycling in general and mtb specifically. Though gotta admit the crash factor. I (knock on wood) have never had a bone breaking crash, but frequently come home with cuts and bruises. My wife shakes her head and says you're injured again. I tell her an injury is something so severe you can't ride. If I can ride, I'm hurting but not "injured".

    Dang, that sounds OCD too. Oh well...
    Hey man I trying was to be cool, here. Offering a little background and application in my post, apologizing for ot and hijacking, but if you wanna go there... (there's always one)

    Regarding your insightful perceptions---You don't know me or my running history or my current physical shape. I'll simply say I'm not "hobbling around" and like I said, I'm still running at a pretty high level. My knees are fine thank you. Actually running has strengthened them. I could go on and on about the benefits of running but with someone like you...it's obvious I'd be wasting the energy to type..

    Just because you had a bad experience with it and had to stop doesn't mean you should lump everyone into the same boat. Your rant sounds more like sour grapes. I've heard your BS from SO MANY cyclists. And I thought I was getting surly as I got older......

    Same old tired, bitter story--"yeah I used to run years ago, screwed up my knees, back...yeah running's not good for you". Maybe it should read more like...running is not for everyone.

    I could call all mtn bikers f....ing nuts and basic idiots for jumping off stuff, going air borne, etc. I mean click on soulrider's profile pic...'nuff said. An orthopedic surgeon's dream right there.. "Great, keep doing that crazy stuff guys and above all never slow down...you all are keeping me, my 4000 sq.' house, my BMWs and ex-wives in good stead". Hey it's your passion, I get it. It's cool, I'm not bashing anyone for doing that. Hammer away and have fun.

    Running is "fun and healthy" for me. It's obvious it wasn't for you...sorry to hear that. I never do extreme things, everything in moderation, that's a huge reason I'm still at it. I pointed out in the last post about the benefits of cycling/crosstraining and strengthening your core to minimize injuries and keep you running, or doing whatever you like to do, at a quality level as we get older.

    Yes getting my heart rate up, burning calories and fat for a sustained time is more *fun* and comes more natural to me then bombing down a hill. So each to his own man. jeez.....

    Your quote of --"Sounds like OCD type mental illness to me. So addicted to a particular form of exercise that they do it even though it is not good for them and actually hurting them. Like tri-geeks who look and perform fit, but damage their hearts from over work"--is totally laughable and absurd. It shows you have little knowledge of the sport, our passion, its long term benefits and just a lack of basic understanding of cardio fitness.

    Tell you what--stay out of my world and I'll return the favor, ok ?
    Last edited by Dave Ferris; 01-16-2013 at 07:14 PM.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Piano Guy View Post
    Hey man I trying was to be cool, here. Offering a little background and application in my post, apologizing for ot and hijacking, but if you wanna go there... (there's always one)

    Tell you what--stay out of my world and I'll return the favor, ok ?
    Fair enough. If you mr runner are a newbie here, and want to ask elementary questions about mt bikes, you're in the wrong forum, your apologies notwithstanding. You came into my world not vice versa. The onus is on you to leave, not me.

    Keep running marathons, ruin your joints and heart from over exertion. It's your body and your life. Have a nice (boring) one.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Fair enough. If you mr runner are a newbie here, and want to ask elementary questions about mt bikes, you're in the wrong forum, your apologies notwithstanding. You came into my world not vice versa. The onus is on you to leave, not me.

    Keep running marathons, ruin your joints and heart from over exertion. It's your body and your life. Have a nice (boring) one.
    +1, This is a mtn bike forum and I want to read more about this killer Burner.

  43. #43
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    Thanks again to all who offered insight on the Burner.
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    Put the soap opera to bed, ladies. This is a Burner thread!

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    So..... back to the bike.....

    More ride time and more praise for the Burner, loving this bike. The geo, fit and feel are top notch.

    The extra traction of the 27.5s is more noticeable as I ride the bike more.

    Went out on the Spot the other day as well, taking notes and looking to start the comparison thread soon...

    For now a few photos, enjoy.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turner Burner, AM 27.5-tby-6.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-tby-3.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-tby-4.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-sy-trail.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-icy-yuba-3.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-icy-yuba-6.jpg  


  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Piano Guy View Post
    Hey man I trying was to be cool, here. Offering a little background and application in my post, apologizing for ot and hijacking, but if you wanna go there... (there's always one)

    Regarding your insightful perceptions---You don't know me or my running history or my current physical shape. I'll simply say I'm not "hobbling around" and like I said, I'm still running at a pretty high level. My knees are fine thank you. Actually running has strengthened them. I could go on and on about the benefits of running but with someone like you...it's obvious I'd be wasting the energy to type..

    Just because you had a bad experience with it and had to stop doesn't mean you should lump everyone into the same boat. Your rant sounds more like sour grapes. I've heard your BS from SO MANY cyclists. And I thought I was getting surly as I got older......

    Same old tired, bitter story--"yeah I used to run years ago, screwed up my knees, back...yeah running's not good for you". Maybe it should read more like...running is not for everyone.

    I could call all mtn bikers f....ing nuts and basic idiots for jumping off stuff, going air borne, etc. I mean click on soulrider's profile pic...'nuff said. An orthopedic surgeon's dream right there.. "Great, keep doing that crazy stuff guys and above all never slow down...you all are keeping me, my 4000 sq.' house, my BMWs and ex-wives in good stead". Hey it's your passion, I get it. It's cool, I'm not bashing anyone for doing that. Hammer away and have fun.

    Running is "fun and healthy" for me. It's obvious it wasn't for you...sorry to hear that. I never do extreme things, everything in moderation, that's a huge reason I'm still at it. I pointed out in the last post about the benefits of cycling/crosstraining and strengthening your core to minimize injuries and keep you running, or doing whatever you like to do, at a quality level as we get older.

    Yes getting my heart rate up, burning calories and fat for a sustained time is more *fun* and comes more natural to me then bombing down a hill. So each to his own man. jeez.....

    Your quote of --"Sounds like OCD type mental illness to me. So addicted to a particular form of exercise that they do it even though it is not good for them and actually hurting them. Like tri-geeks who look and perform fit, but damage their hearts from over work"--is totally laughable and absurd. It shows you have little knowledge of the sport, our passion, its long term benefits and just a lack of basic understanding of cardio fitness.

    Tell you what--stay out of my world and I'll return the favor, ok ?
    If I were in your shoes, I'd be on the phone with Steve Potts ordering a 29er hardtail. Let him know you favor stability and vertical compliance over razor sharp handling and rocket ship acceleration. Also make sure there's room for some really fat tires in back, 2.4" or so. Running large tires at lower pressures helps a ton with both comfort and traction.

    BTW, enjoy your long trail runs. I'm in the opposite boat, using trail running (and weightlifting) as cross training for mountain biking, mainly when I don't have time enough for a decent ride. Shorter than yours, mostly 4-7 miles and probably not nearly as fast. I was thrilled recently to run a sub-24 minute 5K.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  47. #47
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    Aloha, nice pictures, great post. This bike certainly is on my short list as I've been dabbling with my 5 Spot/650b front end experiment for a while now. Thanks again for the continued updates and pictures.

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    1SR, thanks for the update. Looking forward to your comparison. I'm on a 2010 5 Spot and have a new bike itch and I'm interested in the Burner. What size Spot and Burner do you have? I'm on a large Spot now. I'm struggling with the thought of adding 0.8" of top tube.

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    1SR, how's the Burner in the tight, slow, trialsy tech stuff? Are the longish WB and chainstays noticeable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheatgerm View Post
    1SR, thanks for the update. Looking forward to your comparison. I'm on a 2010 5 Spot and have a new bike itch and I'm interested in the Burner. What size Spot and Burner do you have? I'm on a large Spot now. I'm struggling with the thought of adding 0.8" of top tube.
    I am on a large Spot and a large Burner. I hear you about the tt length, it had me worried too. At 5' 10.5" I have ridden medium bikes for years and recently switched to large (Turners anyway). Because of this I was concerned that the Burner would feel too long. This was not the case.
    I have wider bars and a 5mm shorter stem on the Burner and I have been switching back and forth between the Spot and Burner seamlessly.

    The geo of the Burner is more dialed than the stock Spot geo as well (imo).

  51. #51
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    can you take a pic of rear tire clearance? curious how much there is. i am between this bike and the intense tracer 275

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    Quote Originally Posted by wipp View Post
    1SR, how's the Burner in the tight, slow, trialsy tech stuff? Are the longish WB and chainstays noticeable?
    So far it has been great. The trail pictured above has a number of really tight slow speed switchbacks. I was wondering how they would feel on the Burner, surprisingly the main thing I noticed was the extra traction from the 27.5 wheels.
    In no way would I consider this bike slow turning or sluggish feeling in any circumstance I have encountered yet.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider View Post
    I am on a large Spot and a large Burner. I hear you about the tt length, it had me worried too. At 5' 10.5" I have ridden medium bikes for years and recently switched to large (Turners anyway). Because of this I was concerned that the Burner would feel too long. This was not the case.
    I have wider bars and a 5mm shorter stem on the Burner and I have been switching back and forth between the Spot and Burner seamlessly.

    The geo of the Burner is more dialed than the stock Spot geo as well (imo).
    That's good to hear, esp since I am the same height as you.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juniorphil View Post
    can you take a pic of rear tire clearance? curious how much there is. i am between this bike and the intense tracer 275
    I'll get a pic of tire clearance w/ the 2.35 Hans Damdf tires I'm running for you. Imo there is great clearance.
    For me the better performing DW suspension would be the key difference between the Tracer and the Burner.
    Also consider the Burner was designed around 27.5" wheels, the Tracer has an adapter kit to make the 26" bike work w/ 27.5" wheels.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider View Post
    Also consider the Burner was designed around 27.5" wheels, the Tracer has an adapter kit to make the 26" bike work w/ 27.5" wheels.
    Tracer 275 is a 27.5 specific built bike, from the ground up around 27.5 wheels, totally separate and different from the 26 tracer. It's the carbine that shares the same frame as the 26in and has 27.5 dropouts.

    Love your turner tho,
    Defcon Cycles - Brisbane Australia

  56. #56
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    After finally getting out on mine today after looking at it shiney new for a couple of weeks waiting for the weather to break I can confirm something.

    I've bought an assault weapon.

    The frame combined with the Fox 34 gives so much confidence, at speed through baby heads, or off drops I was loving it. Coming off several years only riding XC on 29ers I didn't notice any dimished rollover ability with this setup. The slacker headangle will take some getting used to on the steeper switchback climbs. But it gives sooooo much confidence pointed downhill and allowed me to hit a couple of drops I'd always skipped on previous bikes.

    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement View Post
    After finally getting out on mine today after looking at it shiney new for a couple of weeks waiting for the weather to break I can confirm something.

    I've bought an assault weapon.

    The frame combined with the Fox 34 gives so much confidence, at speed through baby heads, or off drops I was loving it. Coming off several years only riding XC on 29ers I didn't notice any dimished rollover ability with this setup. The slacker headangle will take some getting used to on the steeper switchback climbs. But it gives sooooo much confidence pointed downhill and allowed me to hit a couple of drops I'd always skipped on previous bikes.

    Any problem with pedal strikes due to low bb?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  58. #58
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    No matter what you're on Sprain gives plenty of opportunity to pedal strike or exercise your bashguard. I didn't notice it particularly more than normal, more ride time required though.
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

  59. #59
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    Another ride, 16 miles, 2350ft of climbing.

    I'm so impressed with how well this climbs up sharp little climbs, I cleared a few spots I've always struggled with and some I've never made. No trouble in the slow tech and it continues to impress on the descents and drops, I don't think I've gone off anything more than 4ft yet, but you don't even notice the bike is so good.

    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement View Post
    Another ride, 16 miles, 2350ft of climbing.

    I'm so impressed with how well this climbs up sharp little climbs, I cleared a few spots I've always struggled with and some I've never made. No trouble in the slow tech and it continues to impress on the descents and drops, I don't think I've gone off anything more than 4ft yet, but you don't even notice the bike is so good.

    Yep!!

  61. #61
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    Has it got that "in the bike" feel? I hate that teetering, perched up high on top of the bike feel in slow tech stuff!

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    pic of rear tire clearence anyone?

  63. #63
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    ~15mm either side of a 2.25 Ardent on an Arch EX tubeless.
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    Has it got that "in the bike" feel? I hate that teetering, perched up high on top of the bike feel in slow tech stuff!
    This is one of the things that I love about the Burner. Very in the bike feeling, love the corners on this bike!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider View Post
    This is one of the things that I love about the Burner. Very in the bike feeling, love the corners on this bike!
    Good to know--Thanks!!

  66. #66
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    Do you guys have the new Fox CTD rear shock on your Burners? That's what I believe is coming on mine--the stock option. Do you ever engage the platform "T" setting, or the locked "C" setting? From what I've read about DW link bikes, lockout and platform valving aren't really necessary for pedaling efficiency.

    Thanks!

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juniorphil View Post
    can you take a pic of rear tire clearance? curious how much there is. i am between this bike and the intense tracer 275
    This is with Schwalbe HD tires, one of the larger 27.5 tires available.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turner Burner, AM 27.5-rear-tire-clearence-1.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-rear-tire-clearence-2.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-rear-tire-clearence-3.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    Do you guys have the new Fox CTD rear shock on your Burners? That's what I believe is coming on mine--the stock option. Do you ever engage the platform "T" setting, or the locked "C" setting? From what I've read about DW link bikes, lockout and platform valving aren't really necessary for pedaling efficiency.

    Thanks!
    I have played with the T setting a bit and it is nice for some bits of trail, the C is ok on paved climbs. The D setting is nice and plush w/o giving up much of the pedaling efficiency. You will find the right balance of air pressure and compression setting for your terrain and riding style with a little time in the saddle.
    The Fox CTD does feel better on the Burner than the RP23s I have ridden on other bikes in the past.

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    hey guys thanks for the tire clearance pics. more than i thought there would be

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider View Post
    I have played with the T setting a bit and it is nice for some bits of trail, the C is ok on paved climbs. The D setting is nice and plush w/o giving up much of the pedaling efficiency. You will find the right balance of air pressure and compression setting for your terrain and riding style with a little time in the saddle.
    The Fox CTD does feel better on the Burner than the RP23s I have ridden on other bikes in the past.
    Thanks for the impressions and advice! I'm excited but a bit nervous about this bike. Always a bit of a gamble buying a bike without a test ride but this bike sounds like just what I've been wanting and worth taking a chance.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    Thanks for the impressions and advice! I'm excited but a bit nervous about this bike. Always a bit of a gamble buying a bike without a test ride but this bike sounds like just what I've been wanting and worth taking a chance.
    Based on my saddle time so far.... I don't see how you could be unhappy with the Burner.
    Last edited by 1soulrider; 01-29-2013 at 05:43 PM.

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    New toy for the Burner waiting for me when I got home from work yesterday. Can't wait to mount it up and go ride!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turner Burner, AM 27.5-cc-dba-1.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-cc-dba-2.jpg  


  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider View Post
    New toy for the Burner waiting for me when I got home from work yesterday. Can't wait to mount it up and go ride!
    That will be awesome, please keep us posted!

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    Wow. Every ride gets better on the Burner, trail conditons are prime and the DB Air is just awesome. The way this bike handles on the trail is fricken sweet, I find myself looking for the roughest sections of trail to blast through. The Burner just eats them up and says 'is that all you got?'
    Good times.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turner Burner, AM 27.5-burner-dba.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-burner-dba-2.jpg  


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    So as I get more time on the Burner I am becoming a believer. The ability of this bike to absolutely destroy the trail is impressive. The handling is plenty playful, the bigger wheels and longer wheelbase do not seem to detract from the nimble feeling ride. I have yet to experience the awkward feeling handling that has characterized every 29er I have spent time on.

    The climbing and cornering traction are noticeably improved over my Spot. The increase in roll over in the rough and chunky is a bit more subtle but noticeable. As I have gotten used to the Burner and learned to trust it I find Iím carrying more speed with more confidence through the toughest sections of trail.

    This leads to wanting to go faster and harder and have more fun. Yesterday I was romping down a particularly fun bit of trail littered with small drops, jumps and rock gardens untill I heard a bad sound. As I landed off a hip jump there was a loud crack from the rear of the bike.

    Looks like Iím off the Burner for a while. The one thing I donít like about the 27.5 wheels is that I donít have any spares. Or enough tires to choose from.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turner Burner, AM 27.5-lb-rim-2.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-lb-rim-1.jpg  

    Last edited by 1soulrider; 02-03-2013 at 01:38 PM.

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    dam never had nipples pull through like that. what type of rime is that. good to hear you are liking it. seems like burner is what i want just have to sell a few things first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider View Post
    Looks like Iím off the Burner for a while. The one thing I donít like about the 27.5 wheels is that I donít have any spares. Or enough tires to choose from.
    I told you 650B is no good!

    At this point, do you think the DB is worth the cost difference? BTW, just go with a good carbon wheelset, and life will be better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juniorphil View Post
    dam never had nipples pull through like that. what type of rime is that. good to hear you are liking it. seems like burner is what i want just have to sell a few things first.
    The Burner is good; the Chinese carbon rims, not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    I told you 650B is no good!

    At this point, do you think the DB is worth the cost difference? BTW, just go with a good carbon wheelset, and life will be better.
    It is too early to say much about the DBA vs the stock Fox ctd. The Fox ctd was the best fox air shock I have ridden to date, it felt so much better than the RP23s of years past. I don't know how much of that is due to getting the tune right for the frame, or maybe the new eyelet bushing system that greatly reduces binding at the mount points, but the shock felt pretty damn good.
    I only have two rides on The DBA and am early in the dialing it in phase of our relationship. That said, I really like it so far. I look forward to getting it tuned just right and I will share the settings with everyone.

    About the wheels - yep enve in my future here.

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    Awesome Turner

  81. #81
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    Wow, bummer

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmats View Post
    Wow, bummer
    Honestly I knew I was taking a chance on the hoops but wanted to check them out anyway. LB says they will replace the rim and that they are beefing up the spoke bed on the 27.5 hoops to prevent this from happening in the future.
    We will see.
    I am a bit concerned about the undamaged front hoop and will ask if they will replace it with the updated design as well. I'd hate to rip the rim off the spokes in a hard corner or on an off camber landing...

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    Do you guys have the new Fox CTD rear shock on your Burners? That's what I believe is coming on mine--the stock option. Do you ever engage the platform "T" setting, or the locked "C" setting? From what I've read about DW link bikes, lockout and platform valving aren't really necessary for pedaling efficiency.

    Thanks!
    Only use C when I'm riding on the road to and from the trails, only use T when I'm pushing on on mellow terrain. Off road I just leave it in D and let the shock and suspension take care of things.
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement View Post
    Only use C when I'm riding on the road to and from the trails, only use T when I'm pushing on on mellow terrain. Off road I just leave it in D and let the shock and suspension take care of things.
    Thanks for the good word! I've read that DW is less dependent on platform valving for pedaling efficiency so I'm looking forward to trying it with the various settings...doubt I'll ever use the C setting though the T setting might be useful on some sections/trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement View Post
    Only use C when I'm riding on the road to and from the trails, only use T when I'm pushing on on mellow terrain. Off road I just leave it in D and let the shock and suspension take care of things.
    This has been my experince as well.

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    Here is a quick video I tossed together of Burner riding. I had expected to have a lot more footage to edit from but then the wheel failure happened. Still it isn't too bad, it may be almost watchable even.

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/61052510" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/61052510">Burner Ridin</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user12197206">1soulrider</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

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    Sorry if I missed it, but can you comment on the CCDB air on this frame vs stock?

    I like my CCDB coil on my DHR and would consider the air for the burner.
    Originally posted by bucksaw87
    I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    Sorry if I missed it, but can you comment on the CCDB air on this frame vs stock?

    I like my CCDB coil on my DHR and would consider the air for the burner.
    I just don't have enough ride time on the CCDBA to make an informed comparison. I only had two rides on the shock before my rear wheel failed. First impressions are a big thumbs up though.

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    The Spot has been getting a good bit of ride time while I sort my wheel issues. It has been good to get back on 26" wheels for a while, I was having trouble talking myself into riding it as much as I should with the Burner ready to go.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turner Burner, AM 27.5-view-spot.jpg  

    Turner Burner, AM 27.5-ss-spot.jpg  


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    New rear hoop at my door yesterday after work. May be back on the Burner real soon, the Spot has been treating me well but I look forward to riding the Burner again.
    Looking forward to dialing in the CCDBA, barely got any time in on it before wheel issues.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turner Burner, AM 27.5-new-hoop.jpg  


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    Thanks for the current detailed feedback, guys.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by She&I View Post
    Subscribe

    Thanks for the current detailed feedback, guys.

    Mike
    That's why I am posting this thread, lots of questions out there. Feel free to ask whatever you like about the bike/wheels...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider View Post
    ...Feel free to ask whatever you like about the bike/wheels...
    Thanks for keeping the R in MTBR, 1sr.

    Cost aside, what would be the ultimate wheelset for the Burner? I recently had built a 29er with Enve AM hoops, and I'm really impressed with the performance. They feel something like my 650b Flows, only smoother. I'm thinking Enve XC on a Burner to shave a little weight, but am seeking a trail-centric setup (1x10 or 11). Never owned a 34mm fork, but am entertaining that also.

    TIA!

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    Dunno about "ultimate," but mine will get White Industry hubs laced to Pacenti TL-28 rims by my local shop's wheelbuilder...

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    Quote Originally Posted by She&I View Post
    Thanks for keeping the R in MTBR, 1sr.

    Cost aside, what would be the ultimate wheelset for the Burner? I recently had built a 29er with Enve AM hoops, and I'm really impressed with the performance. They feel something like my 650b Flows, only smoother. I'm thinking Enve XC on a Burner to shave a little weight, but am seeking a trail-centric setup (1x10 or 11). Never owned a 34mm fork, but am entertaining that also.

    TIA!
    Depending on your terrain and intended useage I would recomend a enve am wheelset with the Fox 34. Any less would be under gunning the frame IMO. I am looking forward to getting ahold of a 275 Lyric sometime soon, the Burner deserves it.

  96. #96
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    Why the move away from the 34?
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement View Post
    Why the move away from the 34?
    I have a 650b Loop I could use, but I can see a 34 being the nazz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement View Post
    Why the move away from the 34?
    The 34 is a good fork. However, after riding my Spot with the Lyric up front back to back with the Burner/Fox combo.... the Lyric comes out on top for me. It has a more robust feel on the trail, and although the latest Fox stuff is a big improvment over past years, I perfer the feel of the Solo DH cart to the CTD.

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    I am looking forward to getting ahold of a 275 Lyric sometime soon
    Haven't heard about this possibility of a dedicated 275 Lyric although the std. 26" Lyric does fit some 650 tires. Have you heard something is coming?
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Haven't heard about this possibility of a dedicated 275 Lyric although the std. 26" Lyric does fit some 650 tires. Have you heard something is coming?
    Yup.

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