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  1. #1
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    Scientific 650b vs 26 study completed

    I posted this as a reply in another post but figured it could use it's own if for nothing more than to get flamed for my sarcasm of saying it is a scientific study

    ROLL is alot better, to the tune of 3-5 seconds faster on a 3 minute Enduro style DH trail (Strava verified ;-))....My carbine with 650b, 10 miles X 3 of ups and downs like this:

    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles
    Carbine 26" Easton Haven Carbon Nobby Nics front rear 10 miles
    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles

    over three days of riding 10 miles each day spaced out over a week so as to not crush my legs from pushing race pace. The 650b was consistently 3-5 seconds faster per run on each of the 4 Enduro Style DH runs we have here locally that I am intimately familiar with all the lines and tracks.....So yes 650b is faster and this was scientific

    Where it was faster was specifically in carrying momentum through turns and over rough stuff, period. I exited turns faster than on the Easton Carbon 26's and carried my speed over rocks and roots much better, to the tune of usually needing to pedal immediately on the 26" wheels to where as the 650b's allowed me to flow faster and farther while conserving my legs.....Hope this helps, Hito.
    Last edited by OneEyedHito; 12-08-2012 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Dotting my eyes and crossing my Tea's

  2. #2
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    Your PHD is now verified!

    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    I posted this as a reply in another post but figured it could use it's own if for nothing more than to get flamed for my sarcasm of saying it is a scientific study

    ROLL is alot better, to the tune of 3-5 seconds faster on a 3 minute Enduro style DH trail (Strava verified ;-))....My carbine with 650b, 10 miles X 3 of ups and downs like this:

    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles
    Carbine 26" Easton Haven Carbon Nobby Nics front rear 10 miles
    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles

    over three days of riding 10 miles each day spaced out over a week so as to not crush my legs from pushing race pace. The 650b was consistently 3-5 seconds faster per run on each of the 4 Enduro Style DH runs we have here locally that I am intimately familiar with all the lines and tracks.....So yes 650b is faster and this was scientific

    Where it was faster was specifically in carrying momentum through turns and over rough stuff, period. I exited turns faster than on the Eason Carbon 26's and carried my speed over rocks and roots much better, to the tune of usually needing to pedal immediately on the 26" wheels to where as the 650b's allowed me to flow faster and farther while conserving my legs.....Hope this helps, Hito.
    650's FTW!
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  3. #3
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    Now you need to do 29er vs. 650b
    Check out my riding blog:

    http://onetrailatatime.blogspot.com

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggilings View Post
    Now you need to do 29er vs. 650b
    I haven't done the 3X3 over a week just like I did above but I did break out my Tallboy LTc a few weeks ago and ran some Strava's on most of these same trails....The TB LTc is flat out FASTER, than either 26 or 27.5 Carbine setup with Schwalbe's and Easton Haven Carbon 29ers, and Cane Creek DBAir's......you could say I have my personal preference on components yes.......and the TB LTc was Faster period, but not nearly as fun.....now the turns (berms and flats) it was slower but it just goes so much faster when at speed, now with that said, MY TIMES WEREN'T faster but the bike was in most sections...if you know what I mean.

    Hito

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    What were the Schwalbes on the TB LTc?

  6. #6
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    HD's

  7. #7
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    I can verify Hito's testing. I was there for some of it. Hito is also getting faster. (on any wheelsize)
    2015 Budnitz MTB Ti Limited 650B
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    To make sure I understand, you did runs on three different days. On each day you did three runs, each about 10 miles long. You alternated, one run on 650b, one on 26, and one on 650b? That's not nearly enough runs to be statistically meaningful. A good rule of thumb is seven. Seven of each gets you enough information begin to draw conclusions (except when events are very rare, differences are relatively small, or variability is very high), after that the marginal benefits of more data points falls off asymptotically.

    Did you consider the effects of the tires on rolling resistance? Do you feel you can corner more aggressively with the Nevegal or the Nick in front? Would it be possible to find and test the same tires (size, casing, compound) in the two different sizes? If not, can you quantify the effect of the different tires separately from that of the different wheel size?

    What was the average time of the 650b runs? What was the average time of the 26" run? What were their standard deviations? What t-statistic would you get from a two-tailed unpaired t-test, to judge whether the difference was "consistent" or just random variation?

    I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that being "scientific" is a real pain in the ass.

    The more important question is about fun. On which bike did you have the most fun? All other data points are just noise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lazarus2405 View Post
    To make sure I understand, you did runs on three different days. On each day you did three runs, each about 10 miles long. You alternated, one run on 650b, one on 26, and one on 650b?

    Did you consider the effects of the tires on rolling resistance? Do you feel you can corner more aggressively with the Nevegal or the Nick in front? Would it be possible to find and test the same tires (size, casing, compound) in the two different sizes? If not, can you quantify the effect of the different tires separately from that of the different wheel size?

    What was the average time of the 650b runs? What was the average time of the 26" run? What were their standard deviations? What t-statistic would you get from a two-tailed unpaired t-test, to judge whether the difference was "consistent" or just random variation?

    I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that being "scientific" is a pain in the ass.

    The more important question is about fun. On which bike did you have the most fun? All other data points are just noise.
    The Runs were exclusive to each wheel size each day with the 27.5 wheels size getting in 20 miles that week and the 26 wheels getting in 10 miles that week each 10 miles consisted of the same up and down over the same trails so legs were tasked equally for each wheel size based on terrain but not wheel size...........the difference was "consistent" and not random based on the constitution of the compounds used in conjunction with the confabulation of more than 30 congruent miles utilizing 6 total circular discs with another 6 smaller circular metallurgies all the while being configmented together into one big 'C' Word.........in other words the real answer is:

    In a three point cross the number of observed double crossovers divided by the number expected based on the observed occurrence of single crossovers. The ratio of the observed number of double recombinants to the expected number.

    The 27.5 Wheels were the most fun 'conclusively'. They maintain the flick-ability and twitchiness of the 26 wheels while carrying speed more fluidly

  10. #10
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    Fock meh 1eyed!

    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    The Runs were exclusive to each wheel size each day with the 27.5 wheels size getting in 20 miles that week and the 26 wheels getting in 10 miles that week each 10 miles consisted of the same up and down over the same trails so legs were tasked equally for each wheel size based on terrain but not wheel size...........the difference was "consistent" and not random based on the constitution of the compounds used in conjunction with the confabulation of more than 30 congruent miles utilizing 6 total circular discs with another 6 smaller circular metallurgies all the while being configmented together into one big 'C' Word.........in other words the real answer is:

    In a three point cross the number of observed double crossovers divided by the number expected based on the observed occurrence of single crossovers. The ratio of the observed number of double recombinants to the expected number.

    The 27.5 Wheels were the most fun 'conclusively'. They maintain the flick-ability and twitchiness of the 26 wheels while carrying speed more fluidly
    Damn that's sure sounding Scientific to me alright!
    Last edited by JMac47; 12-07-2012 at 08:29 PM. Reason: typo
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    HD's
    They're in a different league no matter what wheel size.Presuming the 26" were Hd's as well? When are you getting some 650B HD's for a good comparison.

  12. #12
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    I don't buy it.
    Its all placebo effect. If it makes you ride faster, or enjoy your ride more, then who the frack cares.

  13. #13
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    Turbo the placebo effect in clinical trials still produces results and it has even been known to cure disease. As for me, I guess you can't fix stupid

  14. #14
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    Preaching to the choir Hito....
    2015 Budnitz MTB Ti Limited 650B
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    Turbo the placebo effect in clinical trials still produces results and it has even been known to cure disease. As for me, I guess you can't fix stupid
    I wouldn't get to carried away. All you've proved to yourself is that your 650b setup is faster than your 26" wheels/ tires[ whatever they are?]on your carbine, on your trails . Could be different with same 26" wheels/ tires on a slacker , lower longer 26" bike. Even more so on the Dh with heavier 26" tires. Add to that you've proved that the heavier 29er wheel/tires are not as nimble as your 650b wheels/ tires.Once again proving that your 29er set up is not as quick on your trails.

    QED.

    Seen it all before in the Church of the 29er.

    When I was racing I used to do the same sort of trials with various tires and wheel sizes , tubed and tubeless setups[ never with a gps though, too erratic]. Once again i proved to myself what was quickest set up on my trails. Nothing more.


    I'm a fan boy of all 3 sizes. IMHO the big benefit of 650B is it gives the best compromise in weight, vs cornering traction and stability, and a little bit of extra rollover. Something that obviously works well on your carbine, on your trails.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 12-08-2012 at 12:12 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    Turbo the placebo effect in clinical trials still produces results and it has even been known to cure disease. As for me, I guess you can't fix stupid
    You're right. I can't argue with someone that just "wants to believe", and it isn't my place to disprove anyone's beliefs. Its like trying to discuss religion. You are obviously convinced you made the right choice for yourself.
    Maybe someday soon, the only wheel choice available will be 650b, eliminating any other possible choices...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post

    The 27.5 Wheels were the most fun 'conclusively'. They maintain the flick-ability and twitchiness of the 26 wheels while carrying speed more fluidly
    This is really the bottom line for
    most of us (who do not race) the subjective factor of what is the most fun, personally. Varies with rider & the specific terrain. You can't quantify "fun"
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  18. #18
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    For those that saw my tongue in my cheek, kudo's to you, and for those that take themselves too seriously, may you someday find your Truth.........Mine is out there somewhere, at least so says Scully and Mulder

    DWT That Zen Proverb is my favorite btw, understanding it is a part of my qualifications list for my circle of trust (Meet the Fockers reference), the only thing I recall from that movie.

    Butt seriously I am thinking if they could make a 27.5 tire that actually measures 28.25" at the centertread, then we could maintain the rolling speed of the 29er while still keeping the wheel rigidty that allows for full speed barreling through G-Outs that are only accompanied with the top of lung Screaming of "STRAAAVAAAAAA" at 35.6 mph.....if only, if only someday.

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    This one's in the running for thread of the month ! Good job.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggilings View Post
    Now you need to do 29er vs. 650b
    I rode a 650 11 miles on a varied single track this weekend... Hated it. I would rather have the full advantage if the 29 or the agility of the 26. The 27.5 was an improvised compromise.

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    Butt seriously I am thinking if they could make a 27.5 tire that actually measures 28.25" at the centertread, then we could maintain the rolling speed of the 29er while still keeping the wheel rigidty that allows for full speed barreling through G-Outs that are only accompanied with the top of lung Screaming of "STRAAAVAAAAAA" at 35.6 mph.....if only, if only someday.
    Hans Dampf Super Gravity? It's coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I rode a 650 11 miles on a varied single track this weekend... Hated it. I would rather have the full advantage if the 29 or the agility of the 26. The 27.5 was an improvised compromise.
    Sounds like a reasonable conclusion. There's no doubt that the three wheel sizes do make different compromises. I'm curious about what you rode and where you rode it. Care to elaborate? Exactly what sort of trails, what sort of rider are you (background, preferences), what bike, tires, wheelset, etc.

    I myself just finished my 650b Mojo HD build, and personally I found the differences to be pretty subtle. With Neo-Motos and a 1760g wheelset, for the most part it felt like a fun, playful 26" Mojo, except it just didn't fall into wheel traps as easily.

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    Carbine 275 bike through southern CA mountains. Everything from loose techy climbs to bombing semi berm trail. I would have enjoyed it much more on my Tallboy LTc or Spider 26".

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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I rode a 650 11 miles on a varied single track this weekend... Hated it. I would rather have the full advantage if the 29 or the agility of the 26. The 27.5 was an improvised compromise.
    It was in this past May when I was totally hating my 650b wheels. I could not get any traction, front wheel was out of control, I could not get a single thing right. My old 26" bike used to be heaps better. This agony lasted for about 50 miles.

    The reason for my frustration was, I switched to RaRas after having done hundreds of miles on grippy heavier tires and my ride suffered badly as a result. Everything turn back to peachy when I sold the RaRas and got back my old Neo Motos. God I am surprised Schwalbe has not run out of business yet with my experience being that bad!

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    Science, subjective, or some of both - works and is fun - the 27.5 is out of the box and should stick around. Now where are the xc's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I rode a 650 11 miles on a varied single track this weekend... Hated it. I would rather have the full advantage if the 29 or the agility of the 26. The 27.5 was an improvised compromise.
    If I read your report correctly, you were on single track gnarly enough that 29" hoops would be the most comfy and tight enough that 29" hoops not agile enough.

    Hmmm, I know, why not try a wheel half -way in between 29" and 26"?

    No? You might have an insurmountable problem.

    It's your money and your personal preference that is the bottom line for any bike.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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    I am going to take my Tallboy LTc out there in a week or two for comparison... I'll update everyone when the results are in.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    ...ROLL is alot better, to the tune of 3-5 seconds faster on a 3 minute Enduro style DH trail (Strava verified ;-))....My carbine with 650b, 10 miles X 3 of ups and downs like this:

    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles
    Carbine 26" Easton Haven Carbon Nobby Nics front rear 10 miles
    ...
    Is a 3-5 second difference on a 3 minute course even worth mentioning for an average Joe Biker?I mean, seriously?Not hating on 650b, but objectivelly speaking to me this reads more like "was (re)introducing 650b worth it" than "650b is the best of both worlds".

    Not to mention there can be more difference just by changing tires on a same size wheel.

    Good try though.Now go and do the same thing with same model/width/compound tires, as somebody else already suggested

    Marko
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    Quote Originally Posted by problematiks View Post
    Is a 3-5 second difference on a 3 minute course even worth mentioning for an average Joe Biker?I mean, seriously?Not hating on 650b, but objectivelly speaking to me this reads more like "was (re)introducing 650b worth it" than "650b is the best of both worlds".

    Not to mention there can be more difference just by changing tires on a same size wheel.

    Good try though.Now go and do the same thing with same model/width/compound tires, as somebody else already suggested

    Marko
    And add a good 29 to the mix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by problematiks View Post
    Is a 3-5 second difference on a 3 minute course even worth mentioning for an average Joe Biker?I mean, seriously?Not hating on 650b, but objectivelly speaking to me this reads more like "was (re)introducing 650b worth it" than "650b is the best of both worlds".

    Not to mention there can be more difference just by changing tires on a same size wheel.

    Good try though.Now go and do the same thing with same model/width/compound tires, as somebody else already suggested

    Marko
    If you were in a one and a half hour race you'd finish up to a minute and a half faster just going by the minimum 3 second improvement. Sounds significant to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morkys View Post
    If you were in a one and a half hour race you'd finish up to a minute and a half faster just going by the minimum 3 second improvement. Sounds significant to me.
    Yes, if you were in a race.My point in the text you quoted being that average Joe Biker(i.e. most people) just rides for fun and doesn't race.

    @LB412: Yeah, including a 29er would be great, but the problem is you can get the Carbine in 26" or 650b guise only.But I guess a SC Tallboy LTc could be somewhat representative, since it at least uses very similar (same system, different company) suspension.

    Marko
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  31. #31
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    So when tested the 27.5 vs 26, the larger wheel was faster on the downhill parts.

    How about the climbs?

    I am tossing around the idea of 650b wheels for my hardtail. I want a bike good for climbs/descents, is reasonably fast for the occasional race, is maneuverable in rough terrain and climb rocks etc. And most importantly provide a fun ride.

    I like my 26" wheels and think that the 650b might give me a little better larger rock clearance mostly. However I don't want to give up the nimble handling of my XC geometry bike either.

    I know I could test them by getting a set, but since I run V-brakes that means also changing to discs.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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    I will look back at the strava's but I don't climb with ANY type of pace, I usually conserve as much as I can for the descents, as an example on my climbs around here my HR stays in the 150's and on the descents it is in the 180's!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by problematiks View Post
    Is a 3-5 second difference on a 3 minute course even worth mentioning for an average Joe Biker?I mean, seriously?Not hating on 650b, but objectivelly speaking to me this reads more like "was (re)introducing 650b worth it" than "650b is the best of both worlds".

    Not to mention there can be more difference just by changing tires on a same size wheel.

    Good try though.Now go and do the same thing with same model/width/compound tires, as somebody else already suggested

    Marko
    Point is understood and taken Marko, but for this Joe I have run the exact same strava time on my local trails 4 or 5 times each..........so a track that takes me 2:51 seconds to get down and I run that same time on the same bike on several different days (the trail conditions are not exactly the same on any given day either, we haven't even approached that subject {since this is scientific I mean} so what gives), it would figure that 3-5 seconds makes a huge difference.......btw on a legit downhill race 3-5 seconds is first through 5th or more placings.........so again while your tire comparison is noted the fact is that in a race setting 3-5 seconds is worth it just like to some XC guys $1000 per pound of weight saved it worth it......subjectivity at its finest! Thanks for the kudo's on the try, you approval is appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    So when tested the 27.5 vs 26, the larger wheel was faster on the downhill parts.

    How about the climbs?

    I am tossing around the idea of 650b wheels for my hardtail. I want a bike good for climbs/descents, is reasonably fast for the occasional race, is maneuverable in rough terrain and climb rocks etc. And most importantly provide a fun ride.

    I like my 26" wheels and think that the 650b might give me a little better larger rock clearance mostly. However I don't want to give up the nimble handling of my XC geometry bike either.

    I know I could test them by getting a set, but since I run V-brakes that means also changing to discs.
    How tall are you if you don't mind me asking? I am 5'9" on a good day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    How tall are you if you don't mind me asking? I am 5'9" on a good day.
    5'7" and 155lbs. I have friend who is 6'5" and loves his 29inch wheels. Then again he always had trouble finding bike that fit him in the first place. As for his riding.... I can't say it has changed it any. He he was always good technically, but I was a far better climber. Last ride with him on 29er and me on 26er (both hardtails) proved nothing other than what we knew about our riding skills. BTW.. No point in my trying his 29er due our size difference.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    5'7" and 155lbs. I have friend who is 6'5" and loves his 29inch wheels. Then again he always had trouble finding bike that fit him in the first place. As for his riding.... I can't say it has changed it any. He he was always good technically, but I was a far better climber. Last ride with him on 29er and me on 26er (both hardtails) proved nothing other than what we knew about our riding skills. BTW.. No point in my trying his 29er due our size difference.
    So my conclusion with a top o' the line 29er in my quiver (a TB LTc) and my experience on HT and another FS 29er at 5'9", yes the 29er while fast and fun does offer too many compromises for me over the 26 or 27.5 option. A big one for me is that I go @ 190# or so and the wheel/frame flex becomes more of an issue at 29........as for the climb-ability of the 27.5 it 'seems' to climb better, meaning to me it appears to be less stressful.....

    Here is what I will do......I have my '13 Remedy 9.9 built up with Enve 275 AM's now and have clearance issue fixed with a 2.25" Nobby Nic in rear, and I have a set of Enve 26 AM's enroute, I will run the same tires front and rear on both sets and as soon as we get some drier days I will re-run the above tracks swapping out wheels...I will try to keep the same climb pace on both wheels and I will track my HR to see where my body is taxed more......should be a better comparison than how I feel on the climbs since I don't push the up pace.

    Hito

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    Time comparisons aside.....

    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    So my conclusion with a top o' the line 29er in my quiver (a TB LTc) and my experience on HT and another FS 29er at 5'9", yes the 29er while fast and fun does offer too many compromises for me over the 26 or 27.5 option. A big one for me is that I go @ 190# or so and the wheel/frame flex becomes more of an issue at 29........as for the climb-ability of the 27.5 it 'seems' to climb better, meaning to me it appears to be less stressful.....

    Here is what I will do......I have my '13 Remedy 9.9 built up with Enve 275 AM's now and have clearance issue fixed with a 2.25" Nobby Nic in rear, and I have a set of Enve 26 AM's enroute, I will run the same tires front and rear on both sets and as soon as we get some drier days I will re-run the above tracks swapping out wheels...I will try to keep the same climb pace on both wheels and I will track my HR to see where my body is taxed more......should be a better comparison than how I feel on the climbs since I don't push the up pace.

    Hito
    I wanna know where you get all the dough for all the bikes & bling to do these test runs! Just say'n....
    Last edited by JMac47; 12-12-2012 at 04:34 PM. Reason: typo
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    I wanna know where you get all the dough for all the bikes & bling! Just say'n....
    a late bloomer (meaning late at getting my act together) with no kids..........go figure!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I know I could test them by getting a set, but since I run V-brakes that means also changing to discs.
    Not necessarily. Your v-brakes may have enough vertical adjustibility to set up for 650b. Have you measured it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morpheous View Post
    Hito is also getting faster. (on any wheelsize)
    Aha! Now switch back to the 26 and lets see faster Hito again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolandjd View Post
    Not necessarily. Your v-brakes may have enough vertical adjustibility to set up for 650b. Have you measured it?
    No I have not. Also I have not looked hard for rim brake 650b wheels either.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  42. #42
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    3 seconds faster over 3 minutes to joe biker means after 30 minutes, you get to stop and wait for 30 seconds for your buddies to catch up on the group ride....to most riders, that alone is significant enough to be worthwhile.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

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    The 3 second improvement over a 3 minute ride means there is an improvement in rollover and/or traction. My statement using a "race" as an example was rather limited. I am sure the average rider would enjoy the same benefits of 650B that make a rider go faster. Rollover and traction in this test are most likely responsible for the improvement.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
    3 seconds faster over 3 minutes to joe biker means after 30 minutes, you get to stop and wait for 30 seconds for your buddies to catch up on the group ride....to most riders, that alone is significant enough to be worthwhile.
    The problem is, that 2% improvement that's apparently so significant won't make you a better rider.If you were last in the group, you're still going to be last.

    And as I mentioned before, changing tires alone can result in a bigger difference.

    Anyway, to each their own.

    Marko
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    The Nevigal factor. So why did you penalize the 650b?
    Do the right thing, re-test with Nev's on the others and all Neo on the b.

    LOL, love the irony of being a late bloomer when the economy takes a dive. Decades of prepin' for hard times and...D'oh!
    Look on the bright side. Loads of empathy on tap.
    '10 Marin MountVision 650b conversion

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    Neve's aren't my tire of choice period.......They grip well in the corners but are slow rolling and heavy for what they are on these bikes, on a dry course DH bike they would rip I am sure......but for that the Schwalbe Wicked Will is the best tire for my moolah. I have my remedy built up with a 2.35 HD Trailstar Compound upfront and a 2.25 NN Pacestar in the back....I am going to just ride this rig for now, I will play around with the 26 Enve's when they show but for now I just want the fn trails to dry out enough to ride them.........midwest weather just blows period.

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    Both my brother in law & myself have 26er's & 29er's, both never get ridden since we switched over to 650B over a year ago.
    We both went on & won our NorCal XC championships classes this season on 650b's.
    I had to add in 650's to my 2010 26 Spark, this turned it into a XC monster!
    It's much faster then the new 26 or 29er Sparks (ridden both).
    So Please save the BS about how great your wheel size is compared to the 27.5's,
    Scott won both the World XC championships & World Cup XC on 650b's, a "Size They Did NOT Even Sell!!" Because it Tested better then both 26 or 29 (Sizes they Sold), when run side by side with exactly the same setup!

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    Quote Originally Posted by doghead View Post
    Both my brother in law & myself have 26er's & 29er's, both never get ridden since we switched over to 650B over a year ago.
    We both went on & won our NorCal XC championships classes this season on 650b's.
    I had to add in 650's to my 2010 26 Spark, this turned it into a XC monster!
    It's much faster then the new 26 or 29er Sparks (ridden both).
    So Please save the BS about how great your wheel size is compared to the 27.5's,
    Scott won both the World XC championships & World Cup XC on 650b's, a "Size They Did NOT Even Sell!!" Because it Tested better then both 26 or 29 (Sizes they Sold), when run side by side with exactly the same setup!
    I am an average rider. Rode 650s and hated it.. Depending on the trail I am much faster on a 26 or 29.

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    Oh, and Scott makes a great bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I am an average rider. Rode 650s and hated it.. Depending on the trail I am much faster on a 26 or 29.
    Well then, on average, I find the avg. size wheel averages out best for me on avg. trails. lol
    BTW, on avg, I ride avg. trails.
    I'm still trying to get my head around acceptance of all the shortcomings of the huge 29, whilst a modest increase in size over a kids tire draws mucho resistance?
    '10 Marin MountVision 650b conversion

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I am an average rider. Rode 650s and hated it.. Depending on the trail I am much faster on a 26 or 29.
    If you are an "average rider", what difference does it make how fast you ride? For non-racers, riding is all about fun. Is the bike fun to ride is the only relevant question. If not, great: don't ride it & don't buy it.

    Those who seek speed and racing advice will consult a racer, not an "average rider." Ya think? .
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    If you are an "average rider", what difference does it make how fast you ride? For non-racers, riding is all about fun. Is the bike fun to ride is the only relevant question. If not, great: don't ride it & don't buy it.

    Those who seek speed and racing advice will consult a racer, not an "average rider." Ya think? .
    swap efficient for speed... Equals more enjoyment.

    As for wheel size acceptance I just don't see the point of the 650b. Either go with the 29 and all of its benefits or stay with the quickness of the 26. The 650 (for me) had the negatives of both.

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    You can spin this however you want, but 3-5 seconds over 3 minutes is 1.7~2.8%, which is huge.

    What does this mean for the non-racer? Well, I think we'll all agree that the fun factor is a function of velocity, among of other things.

    Let me put it this way, if you wanna talk about science: a 2.8% increase in velocity is a 5.7% increase in kinetic energy...

  54. #54
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    Or good planning?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    a late bloomer (meaning late at getting my act together) with no kids..........go figure!
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post

    As for wheel size acceptance I just don't see the point of the 650b. Either go with the 29 and all of its benefits or stay with the quickness of the 26. The 650 (for me) had the negatives of both.
    That is a common reaction many people have to the tweener size, summarised as "worst of both worlds" or "why bother?"

    Many others have the opposite "best of both worlds" reaction, the most famous being Nino Schurter and his coach Thomas Frischknecht.

    To each his own, but rest assured 650b will not be just a passing fad. You may not like it, but enough do and it will be big in 2014. Look for surprising developments in DH racing, for example
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo5 View Post
    You can spin this however you want, but 3-5 seconds over 3 minutes is 1.7~2.8%, which is huge.

    What does this mean for the non-racer? Well, I think we'll all agree that the fun factor is a function of velocity, among of other things.

    Let me put it this way, if you wanna talk about science: a 2.8% increase in velocity is a 5.7% increase in kinetic energy...
    In that case a 29er is probably going to be even faster. Is that the only criteria?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry View Post
    In that case a 29er is probably going to be even faster. Is that the only criteria?
    Exactly

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry View Post
    In that case a 29er is probably going to be even faster. Is that the only criteria?
    What are you saying? How do you know it would be faster and, the only criteria for what?

    For all i know, any wheel size could be faster than any other. My point was that you shouldn't dismiss a couple of seconds over a couple of minutes. (Yes i know, this wasn't a rigorous experiment, in fact that's precisely what should be your main counter-argument, and definitely not that a few seconds are negligible... because if these were actual reproducible results, 650B would be a game changer.)

    Anyway..
    Last edited by voodoo5; 12-17-2012 at 02:43 AM.

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    All design decisions are a tradeoff. If it works for you, great but you can be sure someone won't like it. We all benefit from additional choice, more chance of getting closer to what works for your dimensions, abilities, preferences, and terrain. Bring on the dh and xc 27.5r's.

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    An interesting aspect of us converters is that we will have a different reference to 650b performance than someone that simply jumps onto a 650 not related to their own bike. Especially the case with the new, burly, slack models.
    '10 Marin MountVision 650b conversion

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by problematiks View Post
    Yes, if you were in a race.My point in the text you quoted being that average Joe Biker(i.e. most people) just rides for fun and doesn't race.

    @LB412: Yeah, including a 29er would be great, but the problem is you can get the Carbine in 26" or 650b guise only.But I guess a SC Tallboy LTc could be somewhat representative, since it at least uses very similar (same system, different company) suspension.

    Marko
    The new Spider Comp should fit the bill for comparison. Intense carbon 29'r with a 68 HA.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by doghead View Post
    Both my brother in law & myself have 26er's & 29er's, both never get ridden since we switched over to 650B over a year ago.
    We both went on & won our NorCal XC championships classes this season on 650b's.
    I had to add in 650's to my 2010 26 Spark, this turned it into a XC monster!
    It's much faster then the new 26 or 29er Sparks (ridden both).
    So Please save the BS about how great your wheel size is compared to the 27.5's,
    Scott won both the World XC championships & World Cup XC on 650b's, a "Size They Did NOT Even Sell!!" Because it Tested better then both 26 or 29 (Sizes they Sold), when run side by side with exactly the same setup!
    Can you describe how it was better? What situations? Terrain, Climb/Descent, Rocks, maneuverability?
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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    Hito,

    I think folks need to LIGHTEN UP as is the case if most forums where people are so quick to condemn and criticize. Personally I thank you for the time and effort you put in doing these tests. While it may not be the perfect scientific test by others' standards it's very helpful IMO. I've got the 650B bug and rode a Scott 730 last weekend for the first time. I noticed a big difference right away switching back and forth between my SC Nomad. So thanks.

    Will

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    Just a thought. Seems like all this little test means is that Bike A is faster than Bike B. This doesn't necesarily have anything to do with the wheel size. In my case, I timed myself on 2 different bikes for the same course, and my hardtail was faster than my full suspension. Did my little test prove that all hardtails are faster than all full suspensions? No. It simply proved that Bike A was faster than Bike B.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    Did my little test prove that all hardtails are faster than all full suspensions?

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  67. #67
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    It's pinkbike opinion - i supose everyone will have one after ridding back to back the 3 wheel sizes on the same trail.
    I for once did like the 29er experience (rode Stumpy FSR 29), but the extra effort to manual is something that makes me thinking about 275 or a 29er with short chainstays.


    Advantages
    One of the biggest advantage of 26´ rims, is tire selection.
    eg: CRC announces:

    378 Products for 26er
    51 Products for 29er
    Nothing on 275 (I know it exist tires )


    Geometries:

    - 26 geometry was teak and teak over years, and even today you see evolutions like the Zero from Mondraker.
    Evolution on 26 will be less visible and is in mature phase compared with 29er/275.
    - 29 will evolve (we can't forget, that what drives development is sales, and 29er are selling like hot cakes) and all the criticism will be solve with time and technical/ingenious solutions
    - 275 will evolve over time.


    It's small details that differentiate a good bike from a great bike.
    26´ being the "oldest wheel size" have more "minor" details polished.
    20years ago, no one, would belive that a trail bike would have 66º HA, 5´ to 6´ travel and weight in the region of 24/25lbs.


    ending...
    Are 275/29 better? For those who "invented" or used - I suppose yes.
    Will we see mtbs evolve to only 1 wheel size? hope not! Having a variety of wheel sizes, let's everyone choose the best for the intended use

    Time will tell and for now, nothing like having TIME (or more ACTUAL TIME) to enjoy present bikes (26/29/275).

  68. #68
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    How about slapping on a 27.5" front wheel on your 26" bike?

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tkul View Post
    It's pinkbike opinion - i supose everyone will have one after ridding back to back the 3 wheel sizes on the same trail.
    Yes, but its a good opinion. Based on riding the same bike with the same components and corrected geometry, on the same trails with multiple loops in the same week with three riders at different levels and even using a stopwatch. Not really scientific, but not as "unscientific" as this "study"

  70. #70
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    I designed and get full royalities for the 30 quadrillion tire and rim combination
    It's obviously the best, and if you'd like a cut, just write up a test and confirm that there is nothing better ... And always remember, it's not about what is best ... It is about what we can convince people is best
    If done properly, others will also write tests

    OP - Glad you're enjoying your bike(s) ... And could care less about what size/style/etcetera it might be.

    Side note:
    My neighbor's 3 year old kid loves his 12", and thinks his brothers 20" bike sucks

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    swap efficient for speed... Equals more enjoyment.

    As for wheel size acceptance I just don't see the point of the 650b. Either go with the 29 and all of its benefits or stay with the quickness of the 26. The 650 (for me) had the negatives of both.
    lol....

  72. #72
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    [QUOTE=socalscott;9977124]Well then, on average, I find the avg. size wheel averages out best for me on avg. trails. lol
    BTW, on avg, I ride avg. trails.
    I'm still trying to get my head around acceptance of all the shortcomings of the huge 29, whilst a modest increase in size over a kids tire draws mucho

    Sold my 26! That's how good I feel about my 29 LT.

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    Oh, and I loved that 26. Just found that it never made it out of the garage... And I had to pay for my wife's new Tallboy

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    It is about what we can convince people is best
    If done properly, others will also write tests
    100% agree and I add:
    On blind kingdom, it's not who sees that's the King... But who SAY's it sees!

    Only time will tell, but since we're in a world of "continuous" growth, today it's 650b/29 to convice people to buy new bikes, tomorrow 26 will be revamped.

    PS - After my experiment, I was almost convinced... but need mor€.... 29er feeling to be converted




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