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Scientific 650b vs 26 study completed

9K views 73 replies 28 participants last post by  Tkul 
#1 · (Edited)
I posted this as a reply in another post but figured it could use it's own if for nothing more than to get flamed for my sarcasm of saying it is a scientific study :D

ROLL is alot better, to the tune of 3-5 seconds faster on a 3 minute Enduro style DH trail (Strava verified ;-))....My carbine with 650b, 10 miles X 3 of ups and downs like this:

Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles
Carbine 26" Easton Haven Carbon Nobby Nics front rear 10 miles
Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles

over three days of riding 10 miles each day spaced out over a week so as to not crush my legs from pushing race pace. The 650b was consistently 3-5 seconds faster per run on each of the 4 Enduro Style DH runs we have here locally that I am intimately familiar with all the lines and tracks.....So yes 650b is faster and this was scientific ;)

Where it was faster was specifically in carrying momentum through turns and over rough stuff, period. I exited turns faster than on the Easton Carbon 26's and carried my speed over rocks and roots much better, to the tune of usually needing to pedal immediately on the 26" wheels to where as the 650b's allowed me to flow faster and farther while conserving my legs.....Hope this helps, Hito.
 
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#2 ·
Your PHD is now verified!

I posted this as a reply in another post but figured it could use it's own if for nothing more than to get flamed for my sarcasm of saying it is a scientific study :D

ROLL is alot better, to the tune of 3-5 seconds faster on a 3 minute Enduro style DH trail (Strava verified ;-))....My carbine with 650b, 10 miles X 3 of ups and downs like this:

Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles
Carbine 26" Easton Haven Carbon Nobby Nics front rear 10 miles
Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles

over three days of riding 10 miles each day spaced out over a week so as to not crush my legs from pushing race pace. The 650b was consistently 3-5 seconds faster per run on each of the 4 Enduro Style DH runs we have here locally that I am intimately familiar with all the lines and tracks.....So yes 650b is faster and this was scientific ;)

Where it was faster was specifically in carrying momentum through turns and over rough stuff, period. I exited turns faster than on the Eason Carbon 26's and carried my speed over rocks and roots much better, to the tune of usually needing to pedal immediately on the 26" wheels to where as the 650b's allowed me to flow faster and farther while conserving my legs.....Hope this helps, Hito.
650's FTW! :thumbsup:
 
#4 ·
I haven't done the 3X3 over a week just like I did above but I did break out my Tallboy LTc a few weeks ago and ran some Strava's on most of these same trails....The TB LTc is flat out FASTER, than either 26 or 27.5 Carbine setup with Schwalbe's and Easton Haven Carbon 29ers, and Cane Creek DBAir's......you could say I have my personal preference on components yes.......and the TB LTc was Faster period, but not nearly as fun.....now the turns (berms and flats) it was slower but it just goes so much faster when at speed, now with that said, MY TIMES WEREN'T faster but the bike was in most sections...if you know what I mean.

Hito
 
#8 ·
To make sure I understand, you did runs on three different days. On each day you did three runs, each about 10 miles long. You alternated, one run on 650b, one on 26, and one on 650b? That's not nearly enough runs to be statistically meaningful. A good rule of thumb is seven. Seven of each gets you enough information begin to draw conclusions (except when events are very rare, differences are relatively small, or variability is very high), after that the marginal benefits of more data points falls off asymptotically.

Did you consider the effects of the tires on rolling resistance? Do you feel you can corner more aggressively with the Nevegal or the Nick in front? Would it be possible to find and test the same tires (size, casing, compound) in the two different sizes? If not, can you quantify the effect of the different tires separately from that of the different wheel size?

What was the average time of the 650b runs? What was the average time of the 26" run? What were their standard deviations? What t-statistic would you get from a two-tailed unpaired t-test, to judge whether the difference was "consistent" or just random variation?

I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that being "scientific" is a real pain in the ass. :D

The more important question is about fun. On which bike did you have the most fun? All other data points are just noise.
 
#9 ·
To make sure I understand, you did runs on three different days. On each day you did three runs, each about 10 miles long. You alternated, one run on 650b, one on 26, and one on 650b?

Did you consider the effects of the tires on rolling resistance? Do you feel you can corner more aggressively with the Nevegal or the Nick in front? Would it be possible to find and test the same tires (size, casing, compound) in the two different sizes? If not, can you quantify the effect of the different tires separately from that of the different wheel size?

What was the average time of the 650b runs? What was the average time of the 26" run? What were their standard deviations? What t-statistic would you get from a two-tailed unpaired t-test, to judge whether the difference was "consistent" or just random variation?

I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that being "scientific" is a pain in the ass. :D

The more important question is about fun. On which bike did you have the most fun? All other data points are just noise.
The Runs were exclusive to each wheel size each day with the 27.5 wheels size getting in 20 miles that week and the 26 wheels getting in 10 miles that week each 10 miles consisted of the same up and down over the same trails so legs were tasked equally for each wheel size based on terrain but not wheel size...........the difference was "consistent" and not random based on the constitution of the compounds used in conjunction with the confabulation of more than 30 congruent miles utilizing 6 total circular discs with another 6 smaller circular metallurgies all the while being configmented together into one big 'C' Word.........in other words the real answer is:

In a three point cross the number of observed double crossovers divided by the number expected based on the observed occurrence of single crossovers. The ratio of the observed number of double recombinants to the expected number.

The 27.5 Wheels were the most fun 'conclusively'. They maintain the flick-ability and twitchiness of the 26 wheels while carrying speed more fluidly ;)
 
#15 · (Edited)
I wouldn't get to carried away. All you've proved to yourself is that your 650b setup is faster than your 26" wheels/ tires[ whatever they are?]on your carbine, on your trails . Could be different with same 26" wheels/ tires on a slacker , lower longer 26" bike. Even more so on the Dh with heavier 26" tires. Add to that you've proved that the heavier 29er wheel/tires are not as nimble as your 650b wheels/ tires.Once again proving that your 29er set up is not as quick on your trails.

QED.

Seen it all before in the Church of the 29er.

When I was racing I used to do the same sort of trials with various tires and wheel sizes , tubed and tubeless setups[ never with a gps though, too erratic]. Once again i proved to myself what was quickest set up on my trails. Nothing more.

I'm a fan boy of all 3 sizes. IMHO the big benefit of 650B is it gives the best compromise in weight, vs cornering traction and stability, and a little bit of extra rollover. Something that obviously works well on your carbine, on your trails.
 
#18 ·
For those that saw my tongue in my cheek, kudo's to you, and for those that take themselves too seriously, may you someday find your Truth.........Mine is out there somewhere, at least so says Scully and Mulder :)

DWT That Zen Proverb is my favorite btw, understanding it is a part of my qualifications list for my circle of trust (Meet the Fockers reference), the only thing I recall from that movie.

Butt seriously I am thinking if they could make a 27.5 tire that actually measures 28.25" at the centertread, then we could maintain the rolling speed of the 29er while still keeping the wheel rigidty that allows for full speed barreling through G-Outs that are only accompanied with the top of lung Screaming of "STRAAAVAAAAAA" at 35.6 mph.....if only, if only someday.
 
#27 ·
...ROLL is alot better, to the tune of 3-5 seconds faster on a 3 minute Enduro style DH trail (Strava verified ;-))....My carbine with 650b, 10 miles X 3 of ups and downs like this:

Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles
Carbine 26" Easton Haven Carbon Nobby Nics front rear 10 miles
...
Is a 3-5 second difference on a 3 minute course even worth mentioning for an average Joe Biker?I mean, seriously?Not hating on 650b, but objectivelly speaking to me this reads more like "was (re)introducing 650b worth it" than "650b is the best of both worlds".

Not to mention there can be more difference just by changing tires on a same size wheel.

Good try though.Now go and do the same thing with same model/width/compound tires, as somebody else already suggested ;)

Marko
 
#31 ·
So when tested the 27.5 vs 26, the larger wheel was faster on the downhill parts.

How about the climbs?

I am tossing around the idea of 650b wheels for my hardtail. I want a bike good for climbs/descents, is reasonably fast for the occasional race, is maneuverable in rough terrain and climb rocks etc. And most importantly provide a fun ride.

I like my 26" wheels and think that the 650b might give me a little better larger rock clearance mostly. However I don't want to give up the nimble handling of my XC geometry bike either.

I know I could test them by getting a set, but since I run V-brakes that means also changing to discs.
 
#34 ·
So when tested the 27.5 vs 26, the larger wheel was faster on the downhill parts.

How about the climbs?

I am tossing around the idea of 650b wheels for my hardtail. I want a bike good for climbs/descents, is reasonably fast for the occasional race, is maneuverable in rough terrain and climb rocks etc. And most importantly provide a fun ride.

I like my 26" wheels and think that the 650b might give me a little better larger rock clearance mostly. However I don't want to give up the nimble handling of my XC geometry bike either.

I know I could test them by getting a set, but since I run V-brakes that means also changing to discs.
How tall are you if you don't mind me asking? I am 5'9" on a good day.
 
#42 ·
3 seconds faster over 3 minutes to joe biker means after 30 minutes, you get to stop and wait for 30 seconds for your buddies to catch up on the group ride....to most riders, that alone is significant enough to be worthwhile.
 
#44 ·
The problem is, that 2% improvement that's apparently so significant won't make you a better rider.If you were last in the group, you're still going to be last.

And as I mentioned before, changing tires alone can result in a bigger difference.

Anyway, to each their own.

Marko
 
#43 ·
The 3 second improvement over a 3 minute ride means there is an improvement in rollover and/or traction. My statement using a "race" as an example was rather limited. I am sure the average rider would enjoy the same benefits of 650B that make a rider go faster. Rollover and traction in this test are most likely responsible for the improvement.
 
#45 ·
The Nevigal factor. So why did you penalize the 650b?
Do the right thing, re-test with Nev's on the others and all Neo on the b.

LOL, love the irony of being a late bloomer when the economy takes a dive. Decades of prepin' for hard times and...D'oh!
Look on the bright side. Loads of empathy on tap.
 
#46 ·
Neve's aren't my tire of choice period.......They grip well in the corners but are slow rolling and heavy for what they are on these bikes, on a dry course DH bike they would rip I am sure......but for that the Schwalbe Wicked Will is the best tire for my moolah. I have my remedy built up with a 2.35 HD Trailstar Compound upfront and a 2.25 NN Pacestar in the back....I am going to just ride this rig for now, I will play around with the 26 Enve's when they show but for now I just want the fn trails to dry out enough to ride them.........midwest weather just blows period.
 
#47 ·
Both my brother in law & myself have 26er's & 29er's, both never get ridden since we switched over to 650B over a year ago.
We both went on & won our NorCal XC championships classes this season on 650b's.
I had to add in 650's to my 2010 26 Spark, this turned it into a XC monster!
It's much faster then the new 26 or 29er Sparks (ridden both).
So Please save the BS about how great your wheel size is compared to the 27.5's,
Scott won both the World XC championships & World Cup XC on 650b's, a "Size They Did NOT Even Sell!!" Because it Tested better then both 26 or 29 (Sizes they Sold), when run side by side with exactly the same setup!
 
#53 ·
You can spin this however you want, but 3-5 seconds over 3 minutes is 1.7~2.8%, which is huge.

What does this mean for the non-racer? Well, I think we'll all agree that the fun factor is a function of velocity, among of other things.

Let me put it this way, if you wanna talk about science: a 2.8% increase in velocity is a 5.7% increase in kinetic energy...
 
#59 ·
All design decisions are a tradeoff. If it works for you, great but you can be sure someone won't like it. We all benefit from additional choice, more chance of getting closer to what works for your dimensions, abilities, preferences, and terrain. Bring on the dh and xc 27.5r's.
 
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