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  1. #1
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    Santa Cruz Heckler 27.5 announced...

    Seems like SC is going all-in with 27.5. $1299 for frame and starts at $2600 for full build kit. Definitely more affordable than the Solo and Bronson. Can anyone explain to me what makes the Heckler 27.5 different from the other two? I am assuming that it mainly has to do with single pivot vs. VPP suspension?

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    Study up on your mountain bike history The Heckler has been around in (basically) the same form since the beginnings of full suspension. Single pivot, reasonably lightweight, and affordable. Durable, simple, and well-evolved.

    I honestly think if they made a carbon version it would likely cannibalize sales of the VPP bikes, as it would likely be lighter and (obviously) lower maintenance, along with lower priced.

    Now, if they will just update the Superlight in a similar fashion (and make it, well, slightly lighter) then I am all over it. My converted Superlight 650b is awesome already!

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    Yeah, it's mainly single pivot vs. VPP. The geometry is essentially the same as the Bronson, so think of it as a poor man's Bronson.

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    Pretty funny, no one saw that one coming. Boy, SC sure has done a 180 from their previous statements about 650B jumping in hook line and sinker. Only a few models left to change.

    This is a nice bike with some good improvements at a great price point. Glad to see them do this.

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    might just get me to buy into this 650b thing. what would be better is if it was an app bike.

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    Thing is though, it's still a relatively old-school suspension design, and one that I think when compared to the FSR-Based Norco ART design or RM Altitudes "Flip Chip" may not climb nearly as well.

    You can get the following for under $3000

    RM Altitude 730
    Norco Range Killer-B3
    Norco Sight Killer-B3
    Santa Cruz Heckler 650b
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    Whyyyyy? They've really needed a 650B Chameleon or Highball LT in the lineup forever but seem so opposed to any modern geometry AM hardtail.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Thing is though, it's still a relatively old-school suspension design, and one that I think when compared to the FSR-Based Norco ART design or RM Altitudes "Flip Chip" may not climb nearly as well.
    im not a mtb historian but isn't fsr nearly as old as sp? but i do agree, a good horst design will out preform a sp. still a nice option for someone who wants a dead simple, dead reliable bike though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Thing is though, it's still a relatively old-school suspension design, and one that I think when compared to the FSR-Based Norco ART design or RM Altitudes "Flip Chip" may not climb nearly as well.

    You can get the following for under $3000

    RM Altitude 730
    Norco Range Killer-B3
    Norco Sight Killer-B3
    Santa Cruz Heckler 650b
    Sometimes simple is good and all some people really need. Just look at the waiting list for the Orange 5 (now a 275 available) which is also a simple single pivot like the Heckler but the frame is more than twice the price.

    Also the frame only price kills the Norco's and the Rocky if that's all you need.

  10. #10
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    What's the best shock currently for the Orange 5 or Heckler?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    I've had two single pivot bikes - a Bastardo and a Nickel 650b. The Nickel just flat doesn't fit me. But it's okay, I just can't offer much of an opinion on it because I can't get comfortable on the bike. The Bastardo was fine, great bike, on downhills, as good as anything. But to climb you needed to have pro pedal switched on, and if you got caught trying to do a quick climb up a short incline, it would slow you down and sap the energy. The other good qualities about that bike, the unbeatable stiffness and tracking and durability, just about make up for that.

    But the VPP Tallboy LT I had really spoiled me as even my 220-ish clyde-self could climb on that thing with the shock open, and it really made a difference being able to take advantage of the extra traction and comfort on climbs...I see that is the big advantage of VPP or DW Link bikes over single pivot designs.
    Your Bastardo (low single pivot) and Nickel (high single pivot) are as dissimilar to each other in climbing behavior as they are to a FSR or VPP.

    The high pivot Nickel (and Heckler as well) will actually tend to firm up under granny gear climbing (or any climbing in a chainring whose highest point falls below the main pivot).

    The Bastardo will squat under hard pedaling in any gear without ProPedal engaged (as will any FSR).

    The VPP uses chain tension to firm up the pedaling at the sag point.

    Honestly, a good high single pivot climbs as well as anything on smooth terrain. The firming of the suspension under hard pedaling does mean it isn't as good at crawling up techy climbs, but still way better than a hardtail.

  12. #12
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    It may require more body english or input to get up techy climbs without losing traction (kind of like a hardtail), but how well a bike climbs (unless it bobs a lot, which a high single pivot does not) is much more a function of 1) weight and 2) the rider's power-to-weight ratio.

    Given the rider's fitness as a constant, the biggest contributor to how well a bike climbs is, in my experience, bike weight.

    People climb well, not bikes, anyway. And I have yet to see any climb that can be conquered on a full-suspension bike that couldn't be conquered (and usually more easily) on a hardtail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    You're giving my Lumberg a real workout today.

    To compare anything you have to get rid of the other variables, such as weight of the rider or bike.

    I'm not sure why you're so emotionally invested in this, but the idea that someone is going to be able to climb as efficiently on a bike which has a suspension that bobs under pedalling seems analytically questionable. You can have the last word though.
    Thanks, I'll take that word.

    A high single pivot DOES NOT BOB under granny-gear climbing when set up correctly. The tradeoff is that the chain tension (or propedal, or low-speed compression damping, or a combination of these) also makes it less reactive to the terrain, more like a hardtail.

    Some people like a bike to climb like a hardtail. Others like it to conform to the terrain while climbing (which almost always entails some "bobbing", including on a VPP, even when set up correctly).

    Neither makes a bike any "better" at climbing to anywhere near the degree that rider fitness and/or bike weight do.

    Tell your Lumberg I've got a meeting with "the Bobs". Yeah, they called me at home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    If you discussed bobbing with the Bobs, I am sure they will want you to come in on Saturday.
    No doubt

    Seriously though, I've owned a Blur XC, Blur LT, Nomad (2 of them), 2 Hecklers, and 3 Superlights. I see a lot of virtue in the simplicity and light weight (comparing aluminum SP to aluminum VPP, of course) as well as the price of the SP bikes.

    In my mind, the tradeoffs of price vs. performance (especially under a skilled rider) make the SP bikes a great choice.

    If SC would ever see fit to make a carbon Superlight, I'd buy it in a minute.

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    no news about a superlight 27.5 with 125 travel? a monopivot in the trailride catalog?

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    Quote Originally Posted by z3ro View Post
    no news about a superlight 27.5 with 125 travel? a monopivot in the trailride catalog?
    Pretty sure the SL will forever be a XC bike.

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    I think the existence of the Superlight 29 means no 27.5 SL.

  18. #18
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    ^i agree, I'm think sc keeps xc 29, trail and am 650b with a 26'' and obviously dh 26'' but maybe well see a v10b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by z3ro View Post
    no news about a superlight 27.5 with 125 travel? a monopivot in the trailride catalog?
    Yeah, they probably wouldn't call it a Superlight, but that's the bike that I'm waiting for! I almost jumped on the Solo, but I prefer the weight and simplicity of a single pivot bike, as well as the price.

  20. #20
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    Why Heckler, and not a 650B revised Butcher with it´s APP-Suspension? Still simple efficient Single-Pivot, but less Pedal-Kickback and Brake-Jack because of linkage-driven Shock ...

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    Man, all this technical mumbo jumbo is making my head spin. Gotta admit, the price point really has me intrigued but not totally sold on SP. Currently own a 29er hardtail and an SC Tallboy, love them both and ride them equally as much depending on the type of terrain. Interested in a 27.5 for a few reasons:

    -Another bike to add to my stable

    -Thinking 27.5's would provide me with the best of 26" and 29"?

    -Another bike to add to my stable

    Specifically, I have trouble maneuvering tight switchbacks with both my 29ers. They're great for everything else. Been looking at the Pivot Firebird, SC Bronson, and Norco Range. With the exception of the Norco, price has been the biggest detractor. Just not sure about Single pivot though. Looked at the Superlight prior to choosing the Tallboy and noticed quite a bit of pedal bob. I'm not the most experienced rider, so it could be that the Superlight wasn't setup correctly.

    Guess, I'll have to take advantage of some local demo days. I really like the Pivot so far but I love the price point of the Heckler and my Tallboy/SC has been great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoStyle View Post
    Why Heckler, and not a 650B revised Butcher with it´s APP-Suspension? Still simple efficient Single-Pivot, but less Pedal-Kickback and Brake-Jack because of linkage-driven Shock ...
    That's not really accurate. APP took all of the simplicity out of a true single-pivot and did nothing other than modifying the shock rate curve to better fit current air shocks. It doesn't change pedal feedback or braking performance.

  23. #23
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    Another that bugs me is the weight. The alloy Range and Sight can both get pretty light, and its looking like both Hecklers will be over 30lbs in even in the higher-end build.
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  24. #24
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    The Heckler is a pretty light frame for an alloy, 6" travel frame. I haven't looked at the others all that closely, but it's pretty difficult to get any proper alloy all-mountain bike below 30 pounds without going carbon wheels and paper thin tires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    That's not really accurate. APP took all of the simplicity out of a true single-pivot and did nothing other than modifying the shock rate curve to better fit current air shocks. It doesn't change pedal feedback or braking performance.
    APP's extra link added stiffness to the rear triangle. I really like the Nickel and my friend does crazy stuff on his Butcher, too bad the APP is gone.

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    Yeh that's the only hesitation I would have about buying a Heckler. That single swing arm style single pivot can be a bit flexy. Surprising how if you stiffen up the front end with the taper steerer and or large dia stanchion fork then rear flex almost disappears and tends to just follow the accurate front. I'm pretty sure if I put my 36 160's on a heckler it would be great.


    I've had virtual pivot and single pivot bikes. My current crop of bikes are 1/2 and 1/2. All have linkage driven shocks though which dramatically changes the leverage ratio profiles. I actually like the way the high single pivot without linkage ride with their regressive suspension curve. They usually have lots of anti-squat and firm initial travel that gives instant acceleration and great smooth climbing ability. They also usually still have a lush mid-stroke but blow through to use all the travel. Ends up being a great efficient pedaling bike for all day seated rides that gobble up tree roots and seated g outs. They can tend to be a bit more choppy descending trail chunder than similar travel virtual pivot bikes.

    Some of the my virtual pivot bikes had less usable travel as they were too progressive at the end of the stroke.Some were way to active and bobbed to much on smooth climbs. So each design can have it's merits. Just need to know what you like in a bike. IMHO pivot posn is as if not more important. To my mind many of the virtual pivot bikes are way over priced for the benefits.Does the average rider even notice ? Some of my single pivot bikes, like my Meta's, are great smooth climbers as they have gobs of anti squat which actually increases as you add more sag. The draw back is pedal feed back[ which I actually like for climbing and acceleration] and stiffening under brakes. Is that really a huge problem?. Just need lots of travel and careful use of the brakes. Turner 5 spot and Burner also have a high pivot . As a result the anti squat, brake squat and pedal feedback figures are high and along with the leverage ratio profiles are very similar to my lowly single pivot Meta's. Everybody goes on about how well the Turners climb not about brake squat and pedal feedback. Once again how much does the average rider actually notice? What previous bike mag reviews used to call great climbing ability they now bemoan pedal feedback. Now some bike mags call a great climber something with little pedal feedback on tech climbs but bob on smooth climbs? You can't win.

    Still plenty of DH action on single pivots. Sam Hill just moved to another single pivot with Nuke Proof .

    Good to see SC is finally bringing their bike geometry in to mainstream with longer wheelbase and steeper seat angles. I could consider buying one now.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 06-15-2013 at 06:21 PM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Yeh that's the only hesitation I would have about buying a Heckler. That single swing arm style single pivot can be a bit flexy. Surprising how if you stiffen up the front end with the taper steerer and or large dia stanchion fork then rear flex almost disappears and tends to just follow the accurate front. I'm pretty sure if I put my 36 160's on a heckler it would be great.


    I've had virtual pivot and single pivot bikes. My current crop of bikes are 1/2 and 1/2. All have linkage driven shocks though which dramatically changes the leverage ratio profiles. I actually like the way the high single pivot without linkage ride with their regressive suspension curve. They usually have lots of anti-squat and firm initial travel that gives instant acceleration and great smooth climbing ability. They also usually still have a lush mid-stroke but blow through to use all the travel. Ends up being a great efficient pedaling bike for all day seated rides that gobble up tree roots and seated g outs. They can tend to be a bit more choppy descending trail chunder than similar travel virtual pivot bikes.

    Some of the my virtual pivot bikes had less usable travel as they were too progressive at the end of the stroke.Some were way to active and bobbed to much on smooth climbs. So each design can have it's merits. Just need to know what you like in a bike. IMHO pivot posn is as if not more important. To my mind many of the virtual pivot bikes are way over priced for the benefits.Does the average rider even notice ? Some of my single pivot bikes, like my Meta's, are great smooth climbers as they have gobs of anti squat which actually increases as you add more sag. The draw back is pedal feed back[ which I actually like for climbing and acceleration] and stiffening under brakes. Is that really a huge problem?. Just need lots of travel and careful use of the brakes. Turner 5 spot and Burner also have a high pivot . As a result the anti squat, brake squat and pedal feedback figures are high and along with the leverage ratio profiles are very similar to my lowly single pivot Meta's. Everybody goes on about how well the Turners climb not about brake squat and pedal feedback. Once again how much does the average rider actually notice? What previous bike mag reviews used to call great climbing ability they now bemoan pedal feedback. Now some bike mags call a great climber something with little pedal feedback on tech climbs but bob on smooth climbs? You can't win.

    Still plenty of DH action on single pivots. Sam Hill just moved to another single pivot with Nuke Proof .

    Good to see SC is finally bringing their bike geometry in to mainstream with longer wheelbase and steeper seat angles. I could consider buying one now.
    My experiences exactly.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Yeh that's the only hesitation I would have about buying a Heckler. That single swing arm style single pivot can be a bit flexy. Surprising how if you stiffen up the front end with the taper steerer and or large dia stanchion fork then rear flex almost disappears and tends to just follow the accurate front. I'm pretty sure if I put my 36 160's on a heckler it would be great.


    I've had virtual pivot and single pivot bikes. My current crop of bikes are 1/2 and 1/2. All have linkage driven shocks though which dramatically changes the leverage ratio profiles. I actually like the way the high single pivot without linkage ride with their regressive suspension curve. They usually have lots of anti-squat and firm initial travel that gives instant acceleration and great smooth climbing ability. They also usually still have a lush mid-stroke but blow through to use all the travel. Ends up being a great efficient pedaling bike for all day seated rides that gobble up tree roots and seated g outs. They can tend to be a bit more choppy descending trail chunder than similar travel virtual pivot bikes.

    Some of the my virtual pivot bikes had less usable travel as they were too progressive at the end of the stroke.Some were way to active and bobbed to much on smooth climbs. So each design can have it's merits. Just need to know what you like in a bike. IMHO pivot posn is as if not more important. To my mind many of the virtual pivot bikes are way over priced for the benefits.Does the average rider even notice ? Some of my single pivot bikes, like my Meta's, are great smooth climbers as they have gobs of anti squat which actually increases as you add more sag. The draw back is pedal feed back[ which I actually like for climbing and acceleration] and stiffening under brakes. Is that really a huge problem?. Just need lots of travel and careful use of the brakes. Turner 5 spot and Burner also have a high pivot . As a result the anti squat, brake squat and pedal feedback figures are high and along with the leverage ratio profiles are very similar to my lowly single pivot Meta's. Everybody goes on about how well the Turners climb not about brake squat and pedal feedback. Once again how much does the average rider actually notice? What previous bike mag reviews used to call great climbing ability they now bemoan pedal feedback. Now some bike mags call a great climber something with little pedal feedback on tech climbs but bob on smooth climbs? You can't win.

    Still plenty of DH action on single pivots. Sam Hill just moved to another single pivot with Nuke Proof .

    Good to see SC is finally bringing their bike geometry in to mainstream with longer wheelbase and steeper seat angles. I could consider buying one now.
    Yep. I love my old Joker. It makes a fine if somewhat burley trail bike.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Yeh that's the only hesitation I would have about buying a Heckler. That single swing arm style single pivot can be a bit flexy. Surprising how if you stiffen up the front end with the taper steerer and or large dia stanchion fork then rear flex almost disappears and tends to just follow the accurate front. I'm pretty sure if I put my 36 160's on a heckler it would be great.


    I've had virtual pivot and single pivot bikes. My current crop of bikes are 1/2 and 1/2. All have linkage driven shocks though which dramatically changes the leverage ratio profiles. I actually like the way the high single pivot without linkage ride with their regressive suspension curve. They usually have lots of anti-squat and firm initial travel that gives instant acceleration and great smooth climbing ability. They also usually still have a lush mid-stroke but blow through to use all the travel. Ends up being a great efficient pedaling bike for all day seated rides that gobble up tree roots and seated g outs. They can tend to be a bit more choppy descending trail chunder than similar travel virtual pivot bikes.

    Some of the my virtual pivot bikes had less usable travel as they were too progressive at the end of the stroke.Some were way to active and bobbed to much on smooth climbs. So each design can have it's merits. Just need to know what you like in a bike. IMHO pivot posn is as if not more important. To my mind many of the virtual pivot bikes are way over priced for the benefits.Does the average rider even notice ? Some of my single pivot bikes, like my Meta's, are great smooth climbers as they have gobs of anti squat which actually increases as you add more sag. The draw back is pedal feed back[ which I actually like for climbing and acceleration] and stiffening under brakes. Is that really a huge problem?. Just need lots of travel and careful use of the brakes. Turner 5 spot and Burner also have a high pivot . As a result the anti squat, brake squat and pedal feedback figures are high and along with the leverage ratio profiles are very similar to my lowly single pivot Meta's. Everybody goes on about how well the Turners climb not about brake squat and pedal feedback. Once again how much does the average rider actually notice? What previous bike mag reviews used to call great climbing ability they now bemoan pedal feedback. Now some bike mags call a great climber something with little pedal feedback on tech climbs but bob on smooth climbs? You can't win.

    Still plenty of DH action on single pivots. Sam Hill just moved to another single pivot with Nuke Proof .

    Good to see SC is finally bringing their bike geometry in to mainstream with longer wheelbase and steeper seat angles. I could consider buying one now.
    Well put

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    "Collet axle pivot – locks in place without pinch bolts. • Angular contact bearings maximize stiffness."

    This is what SC lists on their website. Just a fancy name for single pivot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by w1kk3d View Post
    "Collet axle pivot – locks in place without pinch bolts. • Angular contact bearings maximize stiffness."

    This is what SC lists on their website. Just a fancy name for single pivot?
    Again with this. Yes, it's a well-evolved, well-engineered single pivot. That's what they are saying.

    You already admitted you aren't the most experienced rider. Steve Peat won a crapton of DH WC and world championships on a single pivot Orange. Sam Hill is back on a single pivot. Tons of single pivots all over the world cup scene, and on the enduro pro circuit.

    But every friggin' joe average six-pack weekend warrior is convinced that if they don't pony up for the most expensive multi-pivot design that they won't be able to keep up with their buddies on the trail.

    Here's a hint: if you want to spend the extra cash for a more sophisticated design, go ahead. But realize that if you can't keep up on ANY BIKE, it's likely YOU, not the bike. Nothing wrong with a simple, proven design. I've ridden many examples of each, and the differences are subtle at best, and ALL have their tradeoffs and weak points.

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    And he's not even correct in answering the question he quoted. "Collet axle pivots" are the means by which the linkage is attached to the frame. Has nothing to do with how many pivots there are. Both my Bronson and my Intense M9 use this system to secure the linkages and it's quite nice.

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    Tommy, you might want to take some midol, as its obvious that I've caught you during the heavy cycle of your period. As Blatent was stating, I was looking for the definition of "Collet Axle Pivot" because I am an inexperienced rider and did not find the term in my English to mountain bike translator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    And he's not even correct in answering the question he quoted. "Collet axle pivots" are the means by which the linkage is attached to the frame. Has nothing to do with how many pivots there are. Both my Bronson and my Intense M9 use this system to secure the linkages and it's quite nice.
    Explain to me again how I was wrong? I didn't say that a collet was unique to single pivot designs - my point was that SC wasn't trying to tart up a "lowly" single pivot with their jargon, they were just describing the means of attachment. Follow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Tommy rod- it is apparent you think you are way too cool to converse with mere recreational riders. Perhaps there is a cycling narcissism forum for you somewhere.
    I simply get annoyed with riders being made to feel as if only a $8000 multi-pivot carbon wonderbike will suit their needs, and anything less will cripple their riding.

    It's usually recreational riders who believe this stuff, as anyone who's competed regularly knows it's the surgeon, not the scalpel. Given an adequate level of performance (and any of the bikes being discussed here are well beyond adequate), the biggest difference by an order of magnitude is the rider.

    Sorry if it came across as narcissistic - it wasn't intended to. You have to admit that it's funny to hear people debating whether or not a $3000 bike will "climb well enough" relative to a $6000+ bike (especially when both are 28+ lbs).

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74 View Post
    Your Bastardo (low single pivot) and Nickel (high single pivot) are as dissimilar to each other in climbing behavior as they are to a FSR or VPP.

    The high pivot Nickel (and Heckler as well) will actually tend to firm up under granny gear climbing (or any climbing in a chainring whose highest point falls below the main pivot).

    The Bastardo will squat under hard pedaling in any gear without ProPedal engaged (as will any FSR).

    The VPP uses chain tension to firm up the pedaling at the sag point.

    Honestly, a good high single pivot climbs as well as anything on smooth terrain. The firming of the suspension under hard pedaling does mean it isn't as good at crawling up techy climbs, but still way better than a hardtail.
    I know you're running 1x on your SL now, but did you run a 2-3x before and if so did you notice a different/better suspension reaction while in middle ring climbing, compared to what it did/does in granny? I know that in granny on my Tomac Eli(modified sp they called it) it had terrible pedal feedback/squat in granny vs minimal on my KHS XCT(Spec fsr patent).
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

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    Quote Originally Posted by w1kk3d View Post
    Tommy, you might want to take some midol, as its obvious that I've caught you during the heavy cycle of your period. As Blatent was stating, I was looking for the definition of "Collet Axle Pivot" because I am an inexperienced rider and did not find the term in my English to mountain bike translator.
    Yeah, it's been a long training/racing week so I may have been a bit fussy yesterday Hopefully my point (that any rider, experienced or not, wouldn't be held back by a well-made single pivot) wasn't missed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    I know you're running 1x on your SL now, but did you run a 2-3x before and if so did you notice a different/better suspension reaction while in middle ring climbing, compared to what it did/does in granny? I know that in granny on my Tomac Eli(modified sp they called it) it had terrible pedal feedback/squat in granny vs minimal on my KHS XCT(Spec fsr patent).
    Tomac Eli = low single pivot, so I would expect squat in any gear without a healthy dose of low-speed compression damping. Chain tension and rider weight both acting to compress the suspension due to pivot placement. Likely worse in the granny.

    Honestly, my old Superlight (with a triple) was ridden mostly in the big ring, and I don't recall a ton of squat, but I used propedal as well. The 36t I have on there now is roughly inline with the main pivot so it's pretty neutral under power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74 View Post
    It's usually recreational riders who believe this stuff, as anyone who's competed regularly knows it's the surgeon, not the scalpel. Given an adequate level of performance (and any of the bikes being discussed here are well beyond adequate), the biggest difference by an order of magnitude is the rider.

    Sorry if it came across as narcissistic - it wasn't intended to. You have to admit that it's funny to hear people debating whether or not a $3000 bike will "climb well enough" relative to a $6000+ bike (especially when both are 28+ lbs).
    I would completely agree with your statement bud. I'm not a pro, will never be a pro, and I can't ever see spending anything over $3K on a bike thinking that it will make me that much better (at least thats what I say now). That's why the Heckler and Norco is so intriguing to me; relatively affordable. The only concern that I have with SC's single pivot (and I'm not even sure they are truly the same design) is that I noticed a great deal of pedal bob when I was demoing the Superlight which is why I ultimately chose the Tallboy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by w1kk3d View Post
    I would completely agree with your statement bud. I'm not a pro, will never be a pro, and I can't ever see spending anything over $3K on a bike thinking that it will make me that much better (at least thats what I say now). That's why the Heckler and Norco is so intriguing to me; relatively affordable. The only concern that I have with SC's single pivot (and I'm not even sure they are truly the same design) is that I noticed a great deal of pedal bob when I was demoing the Superlight which is why I ultimately chose the Tallboy.
    I'd say the superlight issue was at least partly setup. I rode mine today for half of the ride with the CTD shock set to descend, and it only bobbed a little under full power when seated and climbing. Switching it to trail mode means it barely moves even standing and mashing. Climb mode is basically lockout and I only use it on pavement, if then.

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    As I've said here on many occasions, it really is hard to beat a well designed single pivot bike. I am sure this new Heckler will be a great riding rig.

    cheers,
    KP
    If you like my products and services tell everyone. If you don't, tell me - kirk(at)pacenticycledesign.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by w1kk3d View Post
    The only concern that I have with SC's single pivot (and I'm not even sure they are truly the same design) is that I noticed a great deal of pedal bob when I was demoing the Superlight which is why I ultimately chose the Tallboy.
    That's surprising. Is that seated or thrashing about standing? I don't know what shock tune is on both. The SL could have a lighter tune? The SL has a marginally higher anti-squat in all rings and lower initial Leverage ratio than the TB. This should give the SL a firmer initial feel than the TB. it would use it's travel past mid stroke easier than the TB so if you are thrashing around standing climbing for some reason then it would possibly bob more.The TB 2 has 20% less anti-squat than the TB but with a lower initial leverage ratio. I guess they are trying to give less pedal feedback ?

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    So, does a little bit of rear end flex actually bother you while you're riding? There is a lot of evidence out there that some flex actually increases traction. Obviously, too much will feel inconsistent and maybe a bit scary, but the Heckler is nowhere near that flexy. Most "flex" comes from your tire/wheel. My Heckler's fairly stiff compared to some steel hardtails I've ridden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    That's surprising. Is that seated or thrashing about standing? I don't know what shock tune is on both. The SL could have a lighter tune? The SL has a marginally higher anti-squat in all rings and lower initial Leverage ratio than the TB. This should give the SL a firmer initial feel than the TB. it would use it's travel past mid stroke easier than the TB so if you are thrashing around standing climbing for some reason then it would possibly bob more.The TB 2 has 20% less anti-squat than the TB but with a lower initial leverage ratio. I guess they are trying to give less pedal feedback ?
    I'd guess someone would have to be running a ton of sag to be that deep in the travel when standing and climbing. FWIW, my Superlight's shock clearly says "light compression tune" on the body.

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    I notice it primarily when climbing. Even in lockout mode, I tend to lose traction at the rear. I notice it with my Tallboy but it was more pronounced in the Superlight. Again, it could've been that it was not setup correctly. After all, it was a demo bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74 View Post
    I simply get annoyed with riders being made to feel as if only a $8000 multi-pivot carbon wonderbike will suit their needs, and anything less will cripple their riding.

    It's usually recreational riders who believe this stuff, as anyone who's competed regularly knows it's the surgeon, not the scalpel. Given an adequate level of performance (and any of the bikes being discussed here are well beyond adequate), the biggest difference by an order of magnitude is the rider.

    Sorry if it came across as narcissistic - it wasn't intended to. You have to admit that it's funny to hear people debating whether or not a $3000 bike will "climb well enough" relative to a $6000+ bike (especially when both are 28+ lbs).
    I think the 'problem' is that for riders who are relatively new to mountain biking, they have not been exposed to really bad bikes / designs. Not to spout on about 'back in the day', but after starting on a 6 speed, non-index, full rigid w/ canti-levers, and a stem as long as my forearm, I have to say , even low-end bikes now are pretty good, and all the bike a lot riders need. That being said, it is the high-end stuff that has gotten us to this point, with all the trickle-down innovation. So we shouldn't give the dentists too hard a time if they can afford a $8000 wunder bike they don't have the skills to exploit.

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    Eh, my point was more that a well-designed single pivot isn't necessarily low-end, and actually has some big advantages (simplicity, weight, low maintenance, durability, cost) that make it worth consideration.

    I have zero problem with anyone spending multiple thousands of dollars on a bike. I just hate to see that decision made under the assumption that anything "less" will be a huge disappointment and somehow unworthy.

    Besides, we're not exactly debating $500 bikes vs. $10,000 bikes. It's still a $3000+ rig. And I'm sure someone out there will build a Heckler with full XTR, and the frame will be fully worthy of those parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    I am wondering how well the frame will interact with the CTD shock...I know with a VPP I can (mostly) keep it wide open without a problem.
    I have a superlight 29 and think the ctd shock works well with it Its not like a tall boy where you leave it open all the time but pedals well on trail and on climb is pretty much locked out
    “An adventure is misery and discomfort, relived in the safety of reminiscence.” Marco Polo

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    Has anyone actually ridden one of the new 275 hecklers? Any ideas when they are available.?

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    I'm not sure they're available yet. They usually have demo days at our local trails, I'm hoping to try one out then.

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