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  1. #1
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    MOOTS - 'off the back' on 650B. Other Ti 6fiddyB frames?

    While (Moots founder) Kent Eriksen and custom builder Jim Kish have been turning out 650b masterpieces since day one, it seems, I reluctantly must report that the good folks now running Moots seem remarkably "off the back" when dealing with the 27.5 phenomenon. I contacted Moots about 2 years ago about a new 650b frame to replace my venerable YBB, and the woman on the other end seemed almost, well, sky-high, when it came to discussing a straightforward medium 650b hardtail...extremely disappointing and odd experience. Must be some great weed out there in Colorado!

    One Year Ago on Moots Forums: "At this time we see very little reason to go with 650b. Tires are very limited, forks...well, there are none at this time that can safely run a tire without the chance of topping out the tire in the fork arch. We are loving the 29ers and will continue down this path. We have however, looked at all the + 's & -'s to make sure we can speak with some knowledge. You won't see a 650b from us in the near future...but never say never. As for retro-fitting a Moots 26er with 650b wheels....they might fit, but will give almost zero clearance from tire to chainstay...a slightly out of true wheel, some mud or a rock would have a very hard time fitting through."

    One Month Ago on Moots Forums: "At this time we are not willing to make a custom 650B frame...even as a custom. There is much more involved other than just building one. Can we do it...sure...but behind the scenes the major sticking point is tooling. More to the point...chainstay tooling. The bends required to make tire clearance and chainring clearance is pretty involved. The shapes you see on our bikes take an investment of time and the building of new benders and jig tooling to hold those correctly for mitering, tacking and welding. Have we thought about a 650b?? Sure. We keep tabs on trends...Fox and Rock Shox are coming with forks by mid-late summer, which is good...gotta have forks....will 2013 be the year 650b hits the masses?....too early to tell."

    Maybe Eriksen or Kish could send them some chain stays to use? Anyways, if you have been hoping for a Moots 650b frame...dream on. They may "me-too" release a 6-fiddyB frame long after the phenomenon has hit mainstream but that's about it, no love for the format there.

    So there is Eriksen and Kish, both of whom are awesome, I've seen a Serotta... is anyone else making a nice Ti frame for 6fiddyB?

  2. #2
    middle ring single track
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    Carver?

    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    format there.

    So there is Eriksen and Kish, both of whom are awesome, I've seen a Serotta... is anyone else making a nice Ti frame for 6fiddyB?
    Ti KillerB (650B)
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  3. #3
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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    Scott Quiring does nice work.
    .:: i-Gallery 4.1 - Main Folder ::.

    Cheers,
    KP
    If you like my products and services tell everyone. If you don't, tell me - kirk(at)pacenticycledesign.com

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Pacenti View Post
    Scott Quiring does nice work.
    .:: i-Gallery 4.1 - Main Folder ::.

    Cheers,
    KP
    Yes he does!

  5. #5
    Got A Lust for Life...
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    That is hilarious. Off the back indeed.
    I am immune to your disdain.

  6. #6
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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    Independent Fabrications has made quite a few too...
    If you like my products and services tell everyone. If you don't, tell me - kirk(at)pacenticycledesign.com

  7. #7
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    To ride this trail is completely free.
    Just show me a triangle..... make it three!

  8. #8
    just some guy
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Wizard View Post
    Kristinka's Van Nicholas is pretty nice.
    I especially like the:
    Van Nicholas Titanium Hip Flask, 47 gram
    !!!

  9. #9
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    However the value of that flask will increase with the contents, thus raising the weight of said item. Weight weenie, to be or not be, that is the question. Easy answer, I say!


    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    I especially like the:
    Van Nicholas Titanium Hip Flask, 47 gram
    !!!

  10. #10
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    Been riding a custom Ti IF made for a 650 in the back and a 29er in the front for 3 years now. I am not a frame builder by any means but they didn't hesitate to build what I wanted. Minimum BB drop and tight back end with the momentum and rollover traits of the 29er front,... makes for a nice weapon in the woods.....and I don't even have to worry about scratching it when I chuck it in the back of my truck!

  11. #11
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    I have had a few long conversations with a good buddy of mine at Moots. He's a lifer there and is a really great guy.

    They are being honest about their concerns. They are a small, agile company. They won't tool up just for a few bikes. They weren't the first on 29 and they won't be early with 650b. I don't think it's fair to call them 'off the back' for answering your questions in an honest way. There's no right answer to that question, it's just not right for them right now. I know they spent a TON of time and resources on their new Divide bikes. They could have been developing a 650b bike. I think you are being disingenuous if you say they should have been working on 650 instead of those bikes.

    Hey, at least they were honest. I heard from quite a few manufacturers who said 'no way in hell' who now have product out. And that was just last year!

    I'm sure you could find riders who thing Moots is off the back for still making Ti bikes...

    I don't think any of us need Moots to make 650b bikes for us to like Moots or 650b. They are one of the best companies out there and one of the few legacy small builders to not sh*t the bed and leave the industry... Oh, and their bikes kick arse.

    mk

  12. #12
    Witty McWitterson
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    take your pick of any number of Ti custom builders out there. They'll do it. Moots is indeed off the back. Their loss. Commitment to a brand only works for so long, you know.

    Vertigo, Form, Quiring. All build fantastic bikes, well worth the money.
    Just a regular guy.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michauxslovakian View Post
    Been riding a custom Ti IF made for a 650 in the back and a 29er in the front for 3 years now. I am not a frame builder by any means but they didn't hesitate to build what I wanted. Minimum BB drop and tight back end with the momentum and rollover traits of the 29er front,... makes for a nice weapon in the woods.....and I don't even have to worry about scratching it when I chuck it in the back of my truck!
    That sounds nice - any pics?

  14. #14
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    I think Moots is a bit bigger than all of those builders. It's different when you are already tooling up for each bike as opposed to how Moots is set up.

    mk

  15. #15
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    I can see where Moots is coming from. I believe they bend and shape all tubes in house. They don't buy them pre-bent, like smaller builders. They even manufacture their own dropouts now, instead of buying them. I'd rather see them take their time, and get right, instead of jumping on the "bandwagon" just to get product out the door. There were plenty of companies that did that when the 29er started to get hot.

    No, I'm not a die hard Moots supporter, but I have owned a couple.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~ View Post
    Commitment to a brand only works for so long, you know.
    WTF does that mean? Seriously. Does every brand need to make every kind of mountain bike in order to keep customers?

    How about NO.

    I'm getting so sick of the bicycling industry because of that attitude. I watched my local bike company crumble under the pressure of the 29er and carbon attitudes. I'm so tired of bike dorks.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velosprocket View Post
    I'd rather see them take their time, and get right, instead of jumping on the "bandwagon" just to get product out the door.
    Thank you!

    Honestly, people have no patience. Especially on this ****ing website. Give it time people.

  18. #18
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    I agree, naughty tandem picture guy!

    And why is that pic so small!? FAIL!

    mk

  19. #19
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    I remember having excellent customer service with Moots in the past. Perhaps as mentioned, they'll do 650b when it's right for them.

    Quiring does make super nice ti frames!

  20. #20
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    It is absolutely impossible that they couldn't bend some chainstays by hand in less than an hour. It's certainly not my place to be saying that but the assertion boggles my mind.
    If you know how to make bicycles the amount of effort that it takes to bend some chainstays, especially ones that are damn-near if not fully identical to most of the stays that they use, especially if they make them in house. Like, totally freaking impossible.

    edit:
    It's just so dang easy to build 650b hardtail frames. SO easy. The beauty of the size is that you don't have to do anything fancy at all for clearance.
    So easy.
    Did I mention how easy it is?
    Last edited by SuspectDevice; 04-09-2012 at 05:42 PM.

  21. #21
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    Im not a builder or profess to know anything about frame building, but I think its a bit hard to imagine how it would be so difficult and require substantial re-tooling to move the dropout an extra .75 of an inch rearward. I mean Moots still makes custom frames, don't they?

  22. #22
    Stubby-legged
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    Off the back...you know who is "off the back' now (for me anyway), is Joe Graney from Santa Cruz. On the bikerumor site/interview. He says one thing he can do without..."f!%king 650b!"
    Makes me rethink my FS frame choice....

  23. #23
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    To those that are defending Moots, it really comes down to that as 650b proponents we want to support those companies that are driving the size. The size would have matured much faster if so many companies weren't sitting around saying stuff like "there aren't any tires or forks". All of us have had tires and forks for several years now. There is nothing worse than a company that sits around waiting for everyone to jump on the bandwagon, then tries to come late to the party and say "we knew 650b would be awesome, we just wanted to make sure we got it right before we built a 650b bike". As cyclists we want the companies we buy from to be enthusiasts, not just companies trying to make a buck (think of all the hatred for Specialized). And as already mentioned it is not that hard to make a 650b frame, so that is just a lame excuse.
    2013 Santa Cruz TRc 650b
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69erEverything View Post
    WTF does that mean? Seriously. Does every brand need to make every kind of mountain bike in order to keep customers?

    How about NO.

    I'm getting so sick of the bicycling industry because of that attitude. I watched my local bike company crumble under the pressure of the 29er and carbon attitudes. I'm so tired of bike dorks.
    Pressure? It's called market demands, the concept is not new.

  25. #25
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    You guys need to keep in mind that lots of people in the bike industry are grumpy for fun and profit.
    Grumpy=opinion and opinion= product differentiation.


    The "line" is often carefully constructed for all sorts of reasons, keep that in mind too. Sometimes you need to keep some cards close to your chest and sometimes you need to re-direct attention to the product that already exists.

    (I mean heck, there are pictures of Santacruz bikes with enve 650b rims floating around on the net somewhere...)

  26. #26
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    Just because you can type how easy it is doesn't make it easy. If it's so easy why don't YOU do it. They have their reasons and their bikes are amazing and well-done so we can simply trust that they are telling the truth.

    Start your own damn 650b company and save us all from the predatory bike industry.

    mk

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    is anyone else making a nice Ti frame for 6fiddyB?
    Seven!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails MOOTS - 'off the back' on 650B. Other Ti 6fiddyB frames?-grand%252520junction-20120405-00050.jpg  


  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailbildr View Post
    Just because you can type how easy it is doesn't make it easy. If it's so easy why don't YOU do it. They have their reasons and their bikes are amazing and well-done so we can simply trust that they are telling the truth.

    Start your own damn 650b company and save us all from the predatory bike industry.

    mk
    Is that sarcasm?
    If you're talking to me well, dang, we've already built 2 650b frames this week, most of this one before lunch today, custom stay forming included. At least a dozen 650b frames have shipped so far this year. I own the bike company in my signature and started it to build aluminum and steel 650b xc race bikes nearly 6 years ago. We've won a bunch of pro races and a national xc championship on them, just like Kent Erriksen across town from Moots.

    The first frames were made out of completely stock tubes from True Temper and Easton. We could still build them out of the stock stuff if we wanted to. They build exactly like 26" bikes because in terms of frame design because a 25mm increase in ERD isn't significant enough to change anything if you already build bikes with enough tire clearance to be practical in the real world.

    Any company that builds custom ti frames, or custom frames in general can build a 650b frame with absolutely no effort. At all.

    Moots certainly has their reasons I'm sure but one of the central messages I try to get out about 650b bikes is that they require almost no changes from 26" bikes to work awesome.

    Sorry for raising a shitstorm, people from Moots who are reading this thread, but "it's too hard" doesn't hold water and the last thing that we need is more misinformation confusing the marketplace.

    -mickey
    spooky bikes

  29. #29
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    [QUOTE=Seven![/QUOTE]

    Sweeet! I had forgotten about them...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice View Post
    Is that sarcasm?

    Any company that builds custom ti frames, or custom frames in general can build a 650b frame with absolutely no effort. At all.

    Moots certainly has their reasons I'm sure but one of the central messages I try to get out about 650b bikes is that they require almost no changes from 26" bikes to work awesome.

    Sorry for raising a shitstorm, people from Moots who are reading this thread, but "it's too hard" doesn't hold water and the last thing that we need is more misinformation confusing the marketplace.

    -mickey
    spooky bikes
    Thanks for this lucid post, Mickey - exactly my suspicion when reading their blog, but as I'm not a frame builder it was just a hunch.

  31. #31
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    Hey Mickey btw I LOVE that labor day post on your blog, right on!

  32. #32
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    A quick search of the Moots forum yields this"

    "Gents,
    At this time we are not willing to make a custom 650B frame...even as a custom. There is much more involved other than just building one. Can we do it...sure...but behind the scenes the major sticking point is tooling. More to the point...chainstay tooling. The bends required to make tire clearance and chainring clearance is pretty involved. The shapes you see on our bikes take an investment of time and the building of new benders and jig tooling to hold those correctly for mitering, tacking and welding.

    Have we thought about a 650b?? Sure. We keep tabs on trends...Fox and Rock Shox are coming with forks by mid-late summer, which is good...gotta have forks....will 2013 be the year 650b hits the masses?....too early to tell.

    We'll keep you posted as all of this rolls along!

    Thanks,

    Jon@Moots

    Posted 1 month ago # "

    When he states the tooling is involved, I believe him. I encourage anybody to take the Moots tour, it's quite impressive. I love to see how they shape and build bikes from scratch. I'd love to see a Moots 650b as much as anybody, but I also want Moots quality for my money.

    All we can do is hope the market makes a shift that direction.

  33. #33
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    Talabardio, you can do what I did and have what I call a Moots YBB Bristle. Same idea as their Gristle, but with a 650b-hence the Bristle

    Still I thought they were willing to build a 650ber if you were willing to shell out the $$.

  34. #34
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    Jeeze.
    If Moots doesn't want to make a bike you want to buy, spend your money with someone who wants to make you a happy customer. There is nothing special about Moots (although their fanboys here seem to think so).

  35. #35
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    Thanks for this thread - nice to use Moots own words to lay it out. I been hankering for a bike made of the magic metal so that's one make to cross off. Now as I recall, being real old and all, Moots was actually early into the 29er game "nearly a decade ahead of the 29er craze." Of course that was under different management or such? Anyways, I don't think Moots has ever produced a single purpose-built 650b bike that I've heard of and it's nice to finally hear why.

  36. #36
    Stubby-legged
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    Spooky bikes has now moved up my list of companys for 650b. Ted Wojcik is also willing to "B" a frame, if steel is your game.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1spd1way View Post
    Off the back...you know who is "off the back' now (for me anyway), is Joe Graney from Santa Cruz. On the bikerumor site/interview. He says one thing he can do without..."f!%king 650b!"
    Makes me rethink my FS frame choice....
    I feel like this thread is verbatim of those from 5 years ago in the 29er forum.

    Think about why Santa Cruz (and other manufacturers) are saying "****ing 650b". They know it is a growing market even though it is less than 1% of sales right now. Now they have to invest (SPEND LOTS OF MONEY) only with the hopes that they will sell their inventory. Pretty risky huh? Well according to this mystical "market demand" they need to come up with new bike models right now. They just got it figured out how to have more 29er frames and may have even phased out some 26er frames.

    If I was a product manager I would be banging my head on the wall most days.

    These frames aren't modular. They need to have completely independent tooling.

    Yeah, no problem for small handmade builders to adopt 650b but give it some ****ing time for the big guys to come out with models. Made to order bikes are great. Sitting on an inventory of left over bikes from previous season sucks.

    Most bike shops are saying "****ing 650b" right now also for similar reasons...

  38. #38
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    CARVER TI 650B

    Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

  39. #39
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    Engin has made one or two, and Groovy works with Ti and has made steel 650b.


    IMO, Moots makes nice bikes, but I think they are getting too "big" to be flexible. Simply take your $$ somewhere else if they don't want to make it.

  40. #40
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    Moots is not a "Custom builder", they can tweak the geometry of their bikes, and have some options, but in a certain way. They don't do whatever you ask them to do.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwig7 View Post
    Seven!
    Seven say they've had the chance to experiment with 650b and learn about its benefits first-hand, not only from building bikes for customers but also for their own staff, many of whom now use 650b rigs as their everyday trail bikes, in both geared and singlespeed form. They say these bikes give a very pure trail experience and offer a lot of stripped down, old-school fun.

    I started out racing mountain bikes, so having fun on the trail is a core value here at Seven and we're always exploring the possibilities of technologies new and old, said founder Rob Vandermark. 650b is actually an old standard and one we've had in our design palette for a long time. It's very cool to see it emerging in the market and bringing riders a new trail experience.

  42. #42
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    I ready this and I was going to reply, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice View Post
    If you're talking to me well, dang, we've already built 2 650b frames this week, most of this one before lunch today, custom stay forming included. At least a dozen 650b frames have shipped so far this year. I own the bike company in my signature and started it to build aluminum and steel 650b xc race bikes nearly 6 years ago. We've won a bunch of pro races and a national xc championship on them, just like Kent Erriksen across town from Moots.

    Any company that builds custom ti frames, or custom frames in general can build a 650b frame with absolutely no effort. At all.

    Moots certainly has their reasons I'm sure but one of the central messages I try to get out about 650b bikes is that they require almost no changes from 26" bikes to work awesome.

    -mickey
    spooky bikes
    Then I read this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velosprocket View Post
    ...

    "Gents,
    At this time we are not willing to make a custom 650B frame...even as a custom. There is much more involved other than just building one. Can we do it...sure...but behind the scenes the major sticking point is tooling. More to the point...chainstay tooling. The bends required to make tire clearance and chainring clearance is pretty involved. The shapes you see on our bikes take an investment of time and the building of new benders and jig tooling to hold those correctly for mitering, tacking and welding.

    Have we thought about a 650b?? Sure. We keep tabs on trends...Fox and Rock Shox are coming with forks by mid-late summer, which is good...gotta have forks....will 2013 be the year 650b hits the masses?....too early to tell.

    We'll keep you posted as all of this rolls along!

    Thanks,

    Jon@Moots

    Posted 1 month ago # "

    When he states the tooling is involved, I believe him. I encourage anybody to take the Moots tour, it's quite impressive. I love to see how they shape and build bikes from scratch. I'd love to see a Moots 650b as much as anybody, but I also want Moots quality for my money.

    All we can do is hope the market makes a shift that direction.
    I'll reply anyway

    For a small builder it's relatively easy to make changes in tooling because a lot of us only have one mill or one lathe and we're constantly changing the positioning because we use it to perform MANY operations.

    I suspect that production shops have dedicated tooling for every type of frame they build...I would expect that 29ers have a common stay length, 26ers have their own and 650b would also have its own (in addition to CX and road bikes). I know that Moots has a tooling plate for chain stays...they plop the bent stays into the plate, clamp them down and then plop it onto another plate that's fixed to a mill bed. Dropouts miters are then cut. They then pull the plate off, drop it onto another mill and cut the miter for the BB shell (that's what Butch tells me).

    Stay length-specific tooling plates would likely also need very specific bent and swaged stays, because the tube clamps on the plate would have to fit the stay profiles, centerline heights and would be positioned so tire clearance, dropout width and chainring locations are known not to have clearance issues. If these plates are made intelligently, it's even probable that they don't have to change the mill table location with reference to the spindle when switching between setups...they could all locate to pins on a base plate to get a pre-set stay length.

    I've TRIED to standardize my chainstay bends and swage procedure for 29ers but even within a range of 420-450mm, I'm not satisfied with using the same tire/chainring clearance bend...it makes a huge difference in how the stays intersect the BB shell. That said, I would definitely not use the same schedule for 650B and 26" wheels ESPECIALLY if the customer is using a 2x crank (clearance nightmare for builders). It doesn't work in every situation and it certainly won't work for high production shops that need speed to stay profitable.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

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