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  1. #1
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    Is Ellsworth worth it?

    The Absolute truth (Carbon) is over $3,600.00 Frame and Shock
    and The Epiphany Carbon is over $3500.00 frame and shock.
    These prices are a great deal more than similar carbon offerings by Santa Cruz, Jamis, and the like. Is it worth it? I really enjoyed my 2011 Aluminum Evolve, and I'm a fan of ICT, but I don't get why the prices have shot up. Last year the Evolve C was under 3k, now it's over $3500.00. If someone from Ellsworth or with knowledge of their products could explain the 20% price increase that would help. Are the bikes 20% better? Is it nicer material? No one I've contacted at Ellsworth can give me an answer.

    Also, I'm hearing a lot of chatter concerning Ellsworth as a company that has lost their way, gives poor customer service, and is experiencing more than their fair share of frame failures. I'm not trying to spread unfounded rumors. As I said I love my Evolve, but I'm in the market for a new ride and I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger on a new Evolve, or Epiphany based upon what I'm hearing. Anyone have any input?
    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Ellsworth prices have gone up because Tony wants a new Porsche...

    In all seriousness, Ellsworth carbon frames are made in Taiwan just like everyone else, there's nothing that particularly sets them apart. For a frame at that kind of money you should be talking to custom builders, $3.5k for a Taiwan frame or you can have a made to measure frame $2.5-3k.

  3. #3
    orthonormal
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    Definitely not worth it. They've made some nice bikes but they've always been way overpriced.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  4. #4
    Merendon Junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy f View Post
    Definitely not worth it. They've made some nice bikes but they've always been way overpriced.
    And that my friend, is the absolute truth.

  5. #5
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    They are still in business?
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  6. #6
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    As much as I don't like Specialize at this point- you could get a Sworks Enduro Frame for 4k that comes with CCDBAcs shock and a dropper post, so no the Elsworth prices are too high for what you get.
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  7. #7
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    Is Ellsworth worth it?

    Never mind his dodgy business practices and what he did to Dave Turner with ICT etc.


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    ...I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger on a new Evolve, or Epiphany based upon what I'm hearing. Anyone have any input?
    Thanks
    There are better ways to spend $3.5K on a new bike frame.
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  9. #9
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    Thanks for your input. I'm hearing a lot of antidotes here and elsewhere, but having not read the forums religiously I have no idea what anyone is referring to. @Wilkis what did he do to Turner? @Two Tone, is Ellsworth really so bad you'd prefer a Specialized? I'm not trying to say anyone is right, or wrong. I have my doubts about Ellsworth, but my 2011 Evolve is a sweet bike. What happened? What dod I miss? what has changed? Could someone fill me in?

    I've also learned that because I'm an Ellsworth owner I may be entitled to a discount of up to 30%. Is a Carbon Epiphany frame worth $2500?

  10. #10
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    On the rare occasion I see an Ellsworth on the
    Trail . I can only think that that buyer did zero research before wasting money on a new Ellsworth.

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    I've also learned that because I'm an Ellsworth owner I may be entitled to a discount of up to 30%. Is a Carbon Epiphany frame worth $2500?
    I think there are better options out there where you could spend your $$, but at least at $2500 you aren't paying a premium to buy the frame.
    Safe riding,

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  12. #12
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    I have owned several good Ellsworths in the past but my last one had terrible quality control issues. The frame should have nevr left the factory. In addition they had a design flaw that was a weak rear chain stay that would break, if you got a warranty replacement it was the same weak chain stay not the newer redesign. They are expensive and the warranty isn't that good IMO.

  13. #13
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    Is Ellsworth worth it?

    @bondseye It's pretty well documented what happened around his ICT patent as well when frames had issues under warranty Ells owners were told parts weren't available and forced to pay upgrade fees to put their bikes back together . PM me and I can give you more detail.


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  14. #14
    ZEN RIDER!
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    I've owned a couple of Ellsworth, a Truth & a Moment. Build quality on both were great and the paint still looks new. ICT works great but it has a huge drawback compared to modern suspension designs-the huge rocker arm.

    That being said I now own 4 Pivots. Build quality is exceptional and the ride is even better. For 3 grand or so Pivot includes frame, fork & shock.

    Big box companies use to offer value, especially on the high end of things. Not so much the case any more considering Specialized has a 10 grand bike. I built up a carbon 429 with carbon wheel set for 4 grand less with 11 speed.
    Life in every breath

  15. #15
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    I've owned several Ellsworths - love the ride of ICT and have had zero issues with warranty or build quality. However, when it came time to buy a new bike last year, I switched to a different brand. Ellsworth is no longer competitive price wise, and I didn't like the longer chain stays and lack of lack of water bottle bosses on the carbon Evolve compared to my original aluminium Evolve.

    I couldn't see any reason to pay $700-$1200 more for an Ellsworth vs Pivot, Turner, Santa Cruz or Devinci. I guess they are targeting S-Works, but pretty much everyone I know that rides those ends up getting them through some race team deal and pays nothing close to retail. Then add in that Ellsworth's XC 'race' bike - the carbon Evolve - lacks water bottle mounts - which just seems crazy.

    I wish them the best of luck. I know the company gets lots of bad press on this forum due to issues in the past - but they make some good bikes, and stepped in to buy a frame production shop when it was shutting down in order to keep production of alloy frames in the US. Hopefully they'll bring their prices back to normal levels and make some sensible adjustments to their product lines so I can put them back into consideration when it's time to buy another bike.

  16. #16
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    I've owned an Ellsworth Truth for 12 years. It's been an excellent frame and nice handling bike. In it's day it was at the top of the heap. But when it came time to migrate to a carbon hardtail and then a 650b full suspension, I went Chinese direct. Frame construction quality is on par and the price differential is insane. The only reason the name brand bikes are getting away with their ridiculous prices to people who want to build their own is that more people aren't aware of the frames being made with the same technology in China and can be had for a fraction of the cost.

  17. #17
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    Been riding Ellsworth for 10 years. Truth, Evolve, Epiphany, Evolution. Tried at least 15 other brands, all the big-box names and yes even Turners, and nothing compares. Amazing how everyone wants to bash Ellsworths. It's apparently the old motto of Ellsworth that reigns true: "Those that ride know". Apparently all the bashers never rode one. They just want to look like everyone else on their cookie-cutter mass-produced frames. Fine by me. I'll keep smiling down the trail on my Ellsworths. Why is there a big rocker? BECAUSE IT WORKS. Why change the basic design every year if what you have works!? Hence the other brands always changing, it doesn't work good enough. Recently demo-d Niner RIP 9 RDO and really liked it. Then demo-d Ellsworth Evolve Carbon the next day and it was that much better than the Niner, and that was WANTING to like the Niner more just to try a different brand for a change... Ride hard, ride technical, ride xc, ride trail, all day epics, etc, been riding for 25 years since the dawn of mtn biking. No personal ties or anything to gain by praising Ellsworth, they just WORK. Nuf said

  18. #18
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    It's actually "Those who ride know". Used to be "Those that ride know", but apparently Ellsworth realized that this was grammatically incorrect....

    I wouldn't bash Ellsworth for the quality of their bikes or the quality of the ride. I've also ridden an Ellsworth for 10 years and it served me well. My only beef with Ellsworth is the cost of their product. It's out of line, IMHO. When I recently wanted to go full 650B in a full suspension XC race bike to replace my old Truth B6 I was shocked at the $3,600 price of the new Truth frame. I ended up buying a $700 Chinese frame (plus $250 for a rear shock) that's modeled after the Scott Spark design. I have to say that this suspension design is also quite good...maybe even better riding, though some of this could be the better shock design.

  19. #19
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    It's fortunate that Ellsworth still has folks who are willing to pay the ridiculously high prices. I rode a Truth for many years and loved it. So much so, that I wanted another one after the frame cracked. At the time I bought the frame they offered a lifetime warranty and when I went for a replacement I was informed they wouldn't honor it. For me any company that offers a lifetime warranty and doesn't honor it can kiss my ____ fill in the blank!

    I now ride an Ibis Mojo SL and I love it! The DW-Link suspension is IMHO the best suspension on the market right now. Also, Ibis is known for killer customer service.
    The Truth will set you free.

    ....but it might offend you first!

  20. #20
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    I came to the 650B forum hoping to find some good news about the Epiphany Carbon XC 275 because I am in the market for a new XC/Trail MTB. I really liked the Evolve, loved the Turner 5-spot, and want an ICT bike. I too grumbled about the Ellsworth prices, I thought over $3k for a carbon frame was excessive to say the least. But reading the rest of the comments about Ells losing their way, screwing Dave Turner, and so forth makes me wonder. Is there another 4-bar ICT suspended carbon 650B out there? What would it take for Turner to bring back the 5-Spot? Seriously though, is there any love for Ellsworth?
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  21. #21
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    Is Ellsworth worth it?

    If turner made a carbon burner flux or some other 650b bike it would be DW. If Knolly ever make a carbon Warden that would be the ticket for you. Personally I have a DW bike avd a Knolly 4X4 bike and love both suspension designs.


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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rearviewmirror View Post
    I came to the 650B forum hoping to find some good news about the Epiphany Carbon XC 275 because I am in the market for a new XC/Trail MTB. I really liked the Evolve, loved the Turner 5-spot, and want an ICT bike. I too grumbled about the Ellsworth prices, I thought over $3k for a carbon frame was excessive to say the least. But reading the rest of the comments about Ells losing their way, screwing Dave Turner, and so forth makes me wonder. Is there another 4-bar ICT suspended carbon 650B out there? What would it take for Turner to bring back the 5-Spot? Seriously though, is there any love for Ellsworth?
    not a horst bike but look at the new devinci carbon offerings. all getting good reviews and devinci is a decent company with good customer service

  23. #23
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    I think Ellsworth has adjusted their prices down slightly, but still concerned about longevity and customer service. To many negative stories out there.
    Anyone looking for a comparable frame I'm loving the carbon Norco Sight so far.
    Last edited by Bondseye; 06-17-2014 at 08:20 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    Thanks for your input. I'm hearing a lot of antidotes here and elsewhere, but having not read the forums religiously I have no idea what anyone is referring to. @Wilkis what did he do to Turner? @Two Tone, is Ellsworth really so bad you'd prefer a Specialized? I'm not trying to say anyone is right, or wrong. I have my doubts about Ellsworth, but my 2011 Evolve is a sweet bike. What happened? What dod I miss? what has changed? Could someone fill me in?

    I've also learned that because I'm an Ellsworth owner I may be entitled to a discount of up to 30%. Is a Carbon Epiphany frame worth $2500?
    I just had an email exchange with the ex-owner of a boutique bike shop in Austin, he said their reputation was far from reality. Meaning Ellsworth was great to deal with, and was always very supportive of a smaller shop. I haven't seen many posts by shop owners or actual owners of the bikes complaining, everyone I know who actually rides an Ellsworth likes it. Horror stories about warranty claims? Most manufacturers have people claiming this, mostly due to second hand buyers demanding a warranty replacement I would guess. I'm not giving up on the 27.5 Epiphany, I think it'll be a great choice, but I just don't have any option to test ride one that I am aware of, and it's a huge cost to buy one sight unseen.

    Edit: More research between the Epiphany and the Pivot Mach 6. The Ells has a bottle cage and a 72.5 degree HT angle, the M6, no bottle cage and a 66 degree HT angle. Absolutely the Carbon Epiphany looks better on paper to me, now I just need to find out where in the world I can actually ride one!
    Last edited by rearviewmirror; 06-17-2014 at 05:30 PM.
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  25. #25
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    I had a buddy that worked for Tony and got me a smoking deal on a Moment. I liked the bike a lot but I think the new suspension designs out there are awesome and wallow less than my ICT with the DHX air. A lot of things have improved since I sold my Moment 5 years ago but seems like Ellsworths have not improved enough to be selling at such a premium. I don't hate them or love them, just my opinion I guess. I would look at the Troy if I had the cash.
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  26. #26
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    They are really beautiful frames but out of my price range, no comment on how they ride though. I had a guy I rode with a few times that had a couple of Ellsworths, loved them, said it was one of the best bikes he had ridden.
    Hardrock 29er, Niner EMD9, Cannondale F29, Camber Expert, 650b Nickel all gone.
    2014 Giant Anthem 27.5 here.

  27. #27
    The Bubble Wrap Hysteria
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    Thanks for your input. I'm hearing a lot of antidotes here and elsewhere, but having not read the forums religiously I have no idea what anyone is referring to. @Wilkis what did he do to Turner? @Two Tone, is Ellsworth really so bad you'd prefer a Specialized? I'm not trying to say anyone is right, or wrong. I have my doubts about Ellsworth, but my 2011 Evolve is a sweet bike. What happened? What dod I miss? what has changed? Could someone fill me in?

    I've also learned that because I'm an Ellsworth owner I may be entitled to a discount of up to 30%. Is a Carbon Epiphany frame worth $2500?
    I see a repeat of the Durango Moonshine drama if you purchased a Ellsworth frame

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life View Post
    I see a repeat of the Durango Moonshine drama if you purchased a Ellsworth frame
    Haha yup lesson learned. This is an old post.

  29. #29
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    I bought an Epiphany 275 a couple of months a go. It is a 2013 model. I paid $1299.00 for the frame and rear shock from Pricepoint. This is my second Ellsworth. I bought a Truth way back in 2000 and put a lot of miles on it. I still have that frame and it is solid.

    I have never had any warranty issues with either of my bikes. I am a fairly big guy (6' 2" and 220 lbs) and I ride fairly aggressively. I have talked to Tony over the phone a couple of times and he was always helpful.

    Back to the Epiphany... As I said I have had it for a couple of months and it is a great bike. The suspension works well for me and I can not detect any bob while pedaling seated. My previous bike was a Specialized FSR and there is no comparison. The suspension on the Epiphany is way more efficient.

    Are the current models of the Epiphany worth their asking price? I don't know.... but mine was a heck of a deal.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by philipb View Post
    I bought an Epiphany 275 a couple of months a go. It is a 2013 model. I paid $1299.00 for the frame and rear shock from Pricepoint. This is my second Ellsworth. I bought a Truth way back in 2000 and put a lot of miles on it. I still have that frame and it is solid.

    I have never had any warranty issues with either of my bikes. I am a fairly big guy (6' 2" and 220 lbs) and I ride fairly aggressively. I have talked to Tony over the phone a couple of times and he was always helpful.

    Back to the Epiphany... As I said I have had it for a couple of months and it is a great bike. The suspension works well for me and I can not detect any bob while pedaling seated. My previous bike was a Specialized FSR and there is no comparison. The suspension on the Epiphany is way more efficient.

    Are the current models of the Epiphany worth their asking price? I don't know.... but mine was a heck of a deal.
    of course it is more efficient. those that ride know that ellworths are 110% efficient.

  31. #31
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    Thanks for the recent replies all, Ellsworth 275 Epiphany Carbon is back on my short list, I can't ignore the ICT and steep head tube angle. Complaining about "overpriced" is subjective, I guess in comparison they are expensive (all modern MTB's are), but is that argument based on MSRP or actual buy price? If an Ellsworth Carbon 27.5 w/ Fox, Thomson, XT, comes out to be $6-7k it seems to be the same price as it's competitors.

    For clarification sake. Seems on par with the market prices for carbon XC/Trail bikes? Also that's retail price, and retail is for suckers.

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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rearviewmirror View Post
    I just had an email exchange with the ex-owner of a boutique bike shop in Austin, he said their reputation was far from reality. Meaning Ellsworth was great to deal with, and was always very supportive of a smaller shop. I haven't seen many posts by shop owners or actual owners of the bikes complaining, everyone I know who actually rides an Ellsworth likes it. Horror stories about warranty claims? Most manufacturers have people claiming this, mostly due to second hand buyers demanding a warranty replacement I would guess. I'm not giving up on the 27.5 Epiphany, I think it'll be a great choice, but I just don't have any option to test ride one that I am aware of, and it's a huge cost to buy one sight unseen.

    Edit: More research between the Epiphany and the Pivot Mach 6. The Ells has a bottle cage and a 72.5 degree HT angle, the M6, no bottle cage and a 66 degree HT angle. Absolutely the Carbon Epiphany looks better on paper to me, now I just need to find out where in the world I can actually ride one!
    Looking at angles, you need to consider more than just one measurement as well as what you'll use it for. If you want a straight up XC feel, sure the 72.5 is the better choice.

    If you're looking for more of an all a rounder, the slack angle of may seem like a put off. That being said, you need to look at the seat tube angle. Case in point, the Rocky Mountains have what the call Straight Up geometry. It essentially boils down to a steep seat tube angle and slack head tube angle. The steep seat tube puts you in a good position to climb, and the slack head angle puts you in a good position to descend. Like I said, don't just use one measurement, particularly if your buying it without demo. Good luck.

  33. #33
    orthonormal
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    Quote Originally Posted by rearviewmirror View Post
    I just had an email exchange with the ex-owner of a boutique bike shop in Austin, he said their reputation was far from reality. Meaning Ellsworth was great to deal with, and was always very supportive of a smaller shop. I haven't seen many posts by shop owners or actual owners of the bikes complaining, everyone I know who actually rides an Ellsworth likes it. Horror stories about warranty claims? Most manufacturers have people claiming this, mostly due to second hand buyers demanding a warranty replacement I would guess. I'm not giving up on the 27.5 Epiphany, I think it'll be a great choice, but I just don't have any option to test ride one that I am aware of, and it's a huge cost to buy one sight unseen.

    Edit: More research between the Epiphany and the Pivot Mach 6. The Ells has a bottle cage and a 72.5 degree HT angle, the M6, no bottle cage and a 66 degree HT angle. Absolutely the Carbon Epiphany looks better on paper to me, now I just need to find out where in the world I can actually ride one!
    I'm one of the people who had a bad experience with the company but that was a really long time ago. Original owner warranty issue on a 1996 Ellsworth FS2/XC in 2000. I posted about it in detail back before mtbr.com switched to vBulletin. The bad reputation was a combination of poor warranty service, their business dealings with Ventana and Turner, and Tony Ellsworth's behavior on mtbr. All of that happened a long time ago and they have become a much more customer-focused company in the years since. I'm glad to see they made positive changes and turned the company around. I think their newer frames are very nice but not a good value compared to their boutique frame competition.

    I hope you get the chance to ride the Epiphany and a few other longer travel bikes before buying. The newer breed of slack head tube angle, steep seat tube angle, low BB bikes really work well. I never thought I'd like a 66.5 degree HA for all around riding but I've been riding a bike with a 66.5 HA/74 SA for a bit over a year now and I'm never going back to steeper HA bikes. If you get a chance to test ride an Epiphany, it will be well worth your time to take a spin on the Epiphany Enduro as well. I bet you'll find that you give up nothing in the climbing dept. and gain a ton in descending ability.
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  34. #34
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    I got an Epiphany in 2008, partly because it was made in the USA. Great bike and loved the plush ICT. I have a few other bikes but always pulled the Epiphany out because it is just so nice to ride. Never had any quality issues and 6 years later it is still tight. Decided to update though to a 27.5 and looked at the new carbon Epiphany. Nice bike, but couldn't justify the $700-$1,000 higher price. Actually talked to the Ellsworth sales manager at Sea Otter who acknowledged that they were priced a little high and they would be coming down to be around $200 more than their high end competition. Well, I looked around and part of the problem is limited distribution here in Marin and I was still quoted a ridiculous price. Ended up with a Santa Cruz 5010c and I love it. I can't slam Ellsworth, I love their bikes and still think the ICT has some advantages over VPP but not paying that much more for foreign made products.
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