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  1. #1
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    Durango Moonshine Problems

    Durango Moonshine

    Sad to report the two Durango Moonshine frames I was sent were terrible. Both were badly misaligned, the welds on both, were sloppy. Both frames came with 71mm bottom bracket shell shells and 73mm bottom brackets requiring spacers. On the first bike the spacers were installed by Durango Bike Company on the wrong side.
    Durango Moonshine Problems-photo-8.jpg
    Durango Moonshine Problems-photo-6.jpg
    Durango Moonshine Problems-photo-5.jpg
    After the first frame was wrong Jeff at Durango repeatedly told me “this never happens.” He said they’ve never had a customer have a problem with frame alignment on a Moonshine.” He blamed Fed Ex. After the second frame arrived also out of alignment he has thus far refused to comment.

    If you beleive that Fed ex damaged frame #1, how is it possible that frame #2 is also a big ugly box of wrong? Jeff Estes the owner himself said he machined frame #2, assembled frame #2 and built frame #2 with his own hands. How could he not notice what is so obviously a bad weld, and a bent seat tube? How could he in good conscience put his name on that mess and ship it to a paying customer?

    Durango Moonshine Problems-photo-2.jpg
    It’s hard to believe I have been lucky enough to receive the only two bad frames DBC has ever sold. It’s also hard to believe Fed Ex could severely damage a frame built for aggressive trail riding while leaving the shipping box unmarred. Both frames were assessed by qualified and reputable mechanics and found to be unacceptable.

    When the first bike arrived, the first thing I noticed was the rear derailleur hanger was severely bent. I called Jeff at DBC and he said they make the hangers soft to save the derailleur from rock impacts. He advised that I bend it back by hand and try that out before attaching the replacement hanger provided with the bike. I bent it back into shape, but the shifting was out of whack so I installed the replacement hanger. Sadly it was still not shifting.

    I called Jeff and he suggested taking it to my favorite mechanic at Durango Bike's expense. I took it to my shop where it became apparent something was horribly wrong. After consulting with Jeff back in Durango, taking measurements, and running through the faulty shifting all agreed the frame was out of alignment.

    Jeff at DBC said he test rode my bike himself prior to shipping and all was fine. He also said he's never had any similar issues with any other bikes. He asked my shop to make it rideable while I wait for a replacement frame all at DBC expense. The mechanics made it rideable with one caveat; my 11 speed drive train would become a 9 1/2 speed. No big cog, and occasional difficulty getting into the second biggest cog.

    My second ride wasn’t so great. The shifting started getting worse and I noticed the link was now contacting the seat tube and the crank arm was contacting the chain stay. I sent the pics to Jeff and he said, “keep riding it’s safe.” “I’m working on your new frame.”

    Durango Moonshine Problems-photo-1.jpg

    The third ride was scary. I did a little 2 to 3 foot drop and heard a clunk. The linkage had apparently dented the seat tube. I sent this pic to Jeff and explained that I really didn’t feel safe on the bike.

    Jeff said “Take it to your shop I may be able to work out a demo you can use for now.” More days passed and I called to ask about the demo, but was told all his domo bikes were tied up. He did offer to pay for a demo from my shop, but nothing was available in my size.

    After more delays, and Jeff missing a promised delivery date by a few weeks, the second frame arrived. My shop dropped everything and built it up. This was a Friday. I had been eagerly awaiting the call all day as Jeff had assured me I'd have the bike in time for the weekend and that he had talked to my shop, made the arrangements for them to do the build, and that he'd call to let me know as soon as he heard it was there.

    Receiving no call I phoned my bike shop the following morning and was immediately asked, "Did Jeff not call you? He said he would call you last night." The shop proceed to tell me how they had built my bike and towards the end noticed the seat post wasn't straight. They guessed it was bent sideways at least 10 degrees. Here's a picture the shop took and sent Jeff that afternoon and to me the following morning.

    Durango Moonshine Problems-photo-1.jpg

    Coincidentally, there was an open house at my bike shop that same Friday night. Lured by free beer, bike mechanics and shop professionals from all over the city flocked to the shop. My Moonshine was on the floor and became the subject of a lot of head scratching, jokes, and ridicule.

    Durango Moonshine Problems-photo-7.jpg
    Faced with these pictures, professional assessments, and my polite request for an immediate refund Jeff refused to issue a refund before receiving the bike back in Durango adding, “Again, we deeply regret that you did not choose the keep the Moonshine." "Chose to keep it?!?

    Durango Moonshine Problems-photo-4.jpg

    I wrote Jeff again explaining that I needed the refund before I’d be able to afford another bike. I told him that I had been without a ride for well over a month. I reminded him that he’s had my money for a month and a half and that the bike was still in the shop’s custody. I asked for the refund immediately so I could order something else and get on the trails. Stating policy he refused saying that’s “your shop not my approved vendor.

    I reminded him that it was his idea to take it to a shop. I then asked for a partial refund now so I could order something else, again stating policy he refused.

    I asked if I could at least keep all the parts and return just the frame so that I might order something else now and get on the trails without waiting another week for yet another fed ex Truck. He took the time out of his supposedly busy schedule to break down the retail prices of every component, a sum that totaled more than the complete bike itself, and said that it was policy to charge retail on any component not sold on a complete bike. I was free to keep any parts I’d like, but the full retail prices would be deducted from my refund. This must be a new policy because originally he offered to sell me a frame, drive train, and fork at the discounted bike manufacturer’s price. A practice I now hear he has discontinued.

    If you look I’m sure you may find a happy DBC customer and at least one favorable, (but very short) review is available right here by the editors of MTBR. In a few short rides that reviewer discovered a flaw regarding seat post insertion limitations due to the crazy looking curved seat tube. That little fact has never been mentioned by Jeff, or on the DBC website. Maybe they should rename the bike “The Russian Roulette.”
    Last edited by Bondseye; 06-10-2014 at 05:25 AM.

  2. #2
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    Maybe they built your bike after the mandatory Monday afternoon staff meeting.

  3. #3
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    I am sorry to hear your ordeal though. Don't like to hear anyone go through that.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by richulr View Post
    I am sorry to hear your ordeal though. Don't like to hear anyone go through that.
    Thanks. Not much of an ordeal, after all were talking about bikes. I was mad at first, but I finally got my refund and will be picking up a Norco Sight today. If anyone is considering a Moonshine, at the very least check the alignment.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    Thanks. Not much of an ordeal, after all were talking about bikes. I was mad at first, but I finally got my refund and will be picking up a Norco Sight today. If anyone is considering a Moonshine, at the very least check the alignment.
    Ya your right its only a bike that you will be using in your spear time, but! its something that you paid for that you couldn't use. Summer is short where i live, missing a month of riding would super bum me out. They should have shipped you one of their personal bikes from dbc to ride. I think its always a good idea to buy a bike from a good shop, so if the bike company drops the ball, the shop has your back. I'm sure your going to like your norco.
    Once you go slack, you never go back!

  6. #6
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    The Spring season is short here as well, in fact it just ended unless that is you like riding in humid 90 plus degree Atlanta Summers. While all this was going on it was 70 degrees, dry, and sunny. It was killing me! Fall will be sweet on the Norco.

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    Dang, man. I didn't see any alignment issues that couldn't be a camera-angle thing (except the one where the linkage scarred the seat tube). But those welds? Wow. That literally looks like something I welded and I'm a truly awful welder.

  8. #8
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    It's best seen in the head on pic. You can see the rear wheel out way left of center. It's not the camera it's the bike. I had several mechanics confirm

  9. #9
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    They have a good location, cool looking shop, and a nice little gimmick: we only source American made components. But when a buyer suggested there are no good American made brakes, they had no problem using Shimano.
    I think they are more hype than substance, but that is just my opinion.
    Craig, Durango CO
    "Lighten up PAL" ... King Cage

  10. #10
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    When you spend that amount of money for a "Made in USA" product, you expect:

    1) higher quality (and quality assurance)
    2) better service
    3) a product and company that wants to maintain its reputation.

    It sounds like the money is not buying any of those features.

    It's sad that whenever I see a new company charging ridiculous prices, whether based in the USA or elsewhere, that I immediately say to myself "that'll be a flop." Look at how many people have gotten crappy quality stuff from China, and you know what they say? "At least it was cheap!" And guess what, the chinese manufacturer or retailer will send them a replacement ASAP (which typically takes months.) The big manufacturers will do the same. They've got warranty replacements built into their business model.

    When you get junk from a company in the USA, you expect them to either say "we'll fix that immediately" or "will give you a refund." I understand that a frame built in the USA will take some time to be built by American hands, but I wouldn't think it would be hard to find experienced welders.

    We're talking about a lot of money for one of these, and the quality and service sound pretty horrible.
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  11. #11
    Durango Bike Co.
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    Caution in Jumping the Gun...read between the lines

    Durango Bike Company acknowledges that the post initially released 6/2014 upset many members, that was obviously not our intent. Please accept our apology. Please note that our company responded immediately and swiftly to Mr. Bond's concerns prior to his post. We ensured that he was made whole financially within 2 hours of receiving the bike at our facility. We apologized repeatedly to Mr. Bond for the hardship the damaged/flawed bike caused and had hoped our immediate response to make things right would have been a satisfactory resolution. We are pleased that no other clients have had the same experience as Mr. Bond. Please review the Moonshine under USER REVIEWS to see how our clients view our Company and more importantly, our bike's performance. Sincerely, Jeff Estes, President
    Last edited by Cycle Chief; 09-04-2014 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Member suggested that we remove

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    hhhmmm, the plot thickens......

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle Chief View Post
    Kevin,

    As we stated numerous times to you and responded to your 64 e-mails, yes 64 e-mails, countless texts and countless phone calls. We have a "no questions" asked return policy, unlike any bike shop in the U.S. It seems you have the facts a bit confused but we have learned that you enjoy the conflict and as we stated to you it is counter productive. This posting is a personal vendetta not an informative response. You didn't get what you wanted, you couldn't bully us into doing what you wanted so your action was to make negative noise about our company. We regret the challenges you had with the bike, we refunded your money in full (including shipping to and from) once we received the bike. You fail to mention in your rant that you wanted all your money without returning the bike. You failed to mention that you were unable to box a bike up or check the suspension on your own yet you are able to determine what issues the bike had? You failed to mention that a claim was submitted and paid for in full by FedEX for the damage to your bike. You failed to mention the positive feedback you had on even a damaged a bike. You failed to mention that I found you a loaner bike in your area and it wasn't good enough for you.

    There was an issue with the spacing on your bike, we investigated the anomaly with your bike and had it remedied within 72 hours...let me know if your Taiwanese Norco could do that. We are are handbuilding each one of these bikes, if the welds bother you then don't buy it. We offer a lifetime warranty on the frame...you want a pretty weld, have a cute little girl in Taiwan do it for you. There are choices out there, we all stand for something. You make your choice but don't try to beat down a company that stands for something more than mass production and cheap components. Moonshine will go head to head with any full suspension bike out there and kill it...guaranteed...or your money back...when you are done with your childish temper tantrum let me know which pretty weld company can do that for you. This will be the only response I have to this post to avoid childish banter back and forth. If members have a specific question I will be more than happy to respond under a new subject. Jeff-President, Durango Bike Company
    It seems you're the one taking it personally. I calmly and acuratlely stated the facts and provided supporting pictures. All I wanted was the working frame you sold me. If you consider a customer wanting what they paid for as "bullying " good luck with the business.

    For the record I did mention my request for a refund without you having the bike back, and I did see both crooked frames in person. I also admire your ideas, that's why I paid you $6,400.00. Problem is I can't ride your ideas and if you claim either frame you sent me was even close to aligned you are flat out lying.

    Peace

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    Cycle Chief delivers a solid response

    *grabs popcorn*

  15. #15
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    Regardless of the plot, those are some hideously horrific looking welds dude. If I am gonna pay that kind of cash for someone other than a "cute little girl" to hand make me a bike in the US and pay top dollar, I'd expect a work of art when it got to me. I'm not a welder, but I'm not even sure that looks safe. Always three sides to the story and I get that.

    In general your response even turns me off as an elitist brand even though I TOTALLY get and appreciate your stance on Made in the USA... Best of luck. I'll never have your kind of cash anyhow. LOL
    2017 Stumpy 29 FSR Carbon/2016 YT Capra Al

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    Three sides to every story, the OP's side, the manufacturer's side and what really happened. I understand and appreciate that. And I love the made in America aspect of the company.

    However, having the head of a company respond in the above fashion is pretty tasteless. I've owned several American-made frames. All were relative works of art with gorgeous welds. It's disingenuous to suggest that you need a "pretty Taiwanese girl" to have decent welds on a bike at that price point.

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    I cannot believe that even left the workshop. What a sack of crap, I bet it rode like a drunk 75 year old woman.

    To the manufacturer, the only thing you will be "killing" with bikes like that is the rider. Also who hand built it? Stevie Wonder?

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    Bad welds, yea, that sucks. I think everyone, and hopefully DBC can agree that the aesthetic quality of the welds and certainly the alignment isn't up to par.

    Unlike others, I feel that any "community interaction" with a company is a good thing. I'm not going NOT buy a product from a good company because it went through some early problems and the owner is passionate about the product he's trying to sell. If Durango Bike Company is going to succeed, it will need to stay active in the community, but it will also need to realize that ANY imperfection on a $6000 bike is going to raise eyebrows of some.

    If I spent that kind of money on a bike that I really wanted (because it was made in the USA), I would give the manufacturer some time to remedy the problem. That being said, I'd also want the manufacturer to give me something to ride in the meantime.

    All that shipping back and forth would get real old, real quick.
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  19. #19
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    Look at how far off centre the top tube is welded at the seat tube junction, its not even in the same State let alone neighbourhood.

  20. #20
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    Good job! The Truth is Out There...

    ...I love it when customer service issues are so effectively resolved on the InTarWebz!

    Well, at least Francis enjoyed riding one of these bad boiz.

    Happy riding!
    - -benja- -

  21. #21
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    Easy now!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle Chief View Post
    let me know if your Taiwanese Norco could do that. We are are handbuilding each one of these bikes, if the welds bother you then don't buy it. We offer a lifetime warranty on the frame...you want a pretty weld, have a cute little girl in Taiwan do it for you.
    Pro-Tip: Don't badmouth other companies, not matter how big, Asian manufactured or otherwise. Norco didn't take a crap in your front yard.

    It's bad form and makes you seem defensive and childish, just like your former customer here. There are plenty of badass welders in mainland China, Taiwan and elsewhere. They're doing their thing and earning their keep just like you. They may not be as Enduro as you and as American as you, but that doesn't mean they're not laying down a competent bead, as you well know.
    - -benja- -

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by benja55 View Post
    Pro-Tip: Don't badmouth other companies, not matter how big, Asian manufactured or otherwise. Norco didn't take a crap in your front yard.

    It's bad form and makes you seem defensive and childish, just like your former customer here. There are plenty of badass welders in mainland China, Taiwan and elsewhere. They're doing their thing and earning their keep just like you. They may not be as Enduro as you and as American as you, but that doesn't mean they're not laying down a competent bead, as you well know.
    Last I checked this website was called Mountain Bike Reveiw. I'm not sure what's childish about providing the forum with the facts about my experience with any given manufacturer, but flame on bro.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    Last I checked this website was called Mountain Bike Reveiw. I'm not sure what's childish about providing the forum with the facts about my experience with any given manufacturer, but flame on bro.
    He was referring to the DBC owners post.

  24. #24
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    Nah, he said "childish, just like your former customer here."

    I apologize if my review was too personal. I tried to stick to the facts, but I'll admit, After a month and a half of rediculous frames, and broken promises I was pissed. You should have read my first draft.

    I considered not posting anything, but I wish like hell someone had warned me about DBC.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle Chief View Post
    You failed to mention that I found you a loaner bike in your area and it wasn't good enough for you...

    ...if the welds bother you then don't buy it. We offer a lifetime warranty on the frame...you want a pretty weld, have a cute little girl in Taiwan do it for you...
    This will be the only response I have to this post to avoid childish banter back and forth...
    Way to advertise yourself and your company, keep it classy dude, keep it classy.

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    Honestly with a company as new as they are, you are the guinea pig.

    I'll give you props for posting. I'm not sure what else you could have done to alert the public to the problems you had. You're not saying that Durango is a horrible company and no-one should buy from them, you're just saying it was a hassle and you wish you had know what you were getting into.

    I think every consumer wants to know what they are getting into when they spend $6,000 on a bike and I don't think its fair to fault the consumer to think they should have gotten a better product the first time.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle Chief View Post
    ...you want a pretty weld, have a cute little girl in Taiwan do it for you.
    Or Ventana in Rancho Cordova, CA.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    Way to advertise yourself and your company, keep it classy dude, keep it classy.
    Yeah, and he must not have read my post thoroughly because I did mention he found a demo at my shop. Problem is it was a medium and I ride a large, but whatever. Crazy how much static you get for writing a review on a review site.

  29. #29
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    To be fair, I'm not seeing any static, other than one person suggesting you're being childish.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    To be fair, I'm not seeing any static, other than one person suggesting you're being childish.
    You're right, I was referring to Jeff.

  31. #31
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    Point taken

    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    Last I checked this website was called Mountain Bike Review. I'm not sure what's childish about providing the forum with the facts about my experience with any given manufacturer, but flame on bro.
    You're absolutely right, that was bad form on my part and I apologize. Too fast on the keyboard there.

    I spend a crap ton on bikes too and expect quality. I completely see your frustration, but don't know that your post is the route I would of taken, but it does seem like you exhausted all avenues.
    - -benja- -

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by benja55 View Post
    You're absolutely right, that was bad form on my part and I apologize. Too fast on the keyboard there.

    I spend a crap ton on bikes too and expect quality. I completely see your frustration, but don't know that your post is the route I would of taken, but it does seem like you exhausted all avenues.
    No worries. Contrary to what Jeff has accused me of I wrote my post simply to inform not as a vendetta, or as I means to an end. I've returned the bike and received my refund. I just wish someone had warned me before waisting time and energy on DBC.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle Chief View Post
    ...you want a pretty weld, have a cute little girl in Taiwan do it for you... Jeff-President, Durango Bike Company
    Lenz Sport and Guerrilla Gravity both make Made in Colorado by hand frames with high quality welds and a better price point and lack an elitist attitude. Not to mention the old Durango made Yeti frames.

    Been interested in Lenz for a little while, but I saw a couple Moonshines built up at Old Pueblo this Feb and thought they were pretty nice looking. Came home and looked them up as another possible handmade CO bike to build up/own. Between not offering a frame only (and the reasoning for it), Kevin's experience, and you're response I am really not interested in DBC.

    Chill out, pay attention to the details, make some good bikes, and hope your other customers have good things to say. Maybe I'll think about it again some day.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    Crazy how much static you get for writing a review on a review site.
    It's a fine line. Your review at first read felt like a crucifixion/flame/take-down rather then a review. It felt like you were coming out with guns blazing, maybe a bit personal, but it's SO easy to mis-read stuff online, I'm plenty guilty of it.

    IMO, part of the issue here is you've got a small company that's really a couple of people, and they're billing themselves as high quality, no BS outfit, which set the expectation. If you're going to talk the talk etc etc.

    It's a hard industry to succeed in, and with one person behind the frame jig, it's kind of easy for it to get personal.
    - -benja- -

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    I considered not posting anything, but I wish like hell someone had warned me about DBC.
    Thanks for posting. It's good to get feedback from people that actually pay for product not just reviews from media that get paid by the people they are reviewing.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by benja55 View Post
    You're absolutely right, that was bad form on my part and I apologize. Too fast on the keyboard there.

    I spend a crap ton on bikes too and expect quality. I completely see your frustration, but don't know that your post is the route I would of taken, but it does seem like you exhausted all avenues.
    I can see what you're saying. I tried to keep it clinical, but I'm sure my frustration shone through.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by richulr View Post
    Maybe they built your bike after the mandatory Monday afternoon staff meeting.
    Ha!

    I do find it unnerving that this thread is surrounded by huge ad$ for DBC (at least in my browser anyway).

    ...& apparently they're a small company ( but have a nice marketing budget.)

    ...& they just got a review from MTBR.
    - -benja- -

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    "you want a pretty weld, have a cute little girl in Taiwan do it for you... "
    I like cute little girls from Taiwan, you seem to be inferring that is a negative thing........ sexist and racist in the same sentence, oh my!

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    I think anyone on here would be VERY upset if they spent over 6g on that POS. Even my kids Walmart bike had better alignment and welds then that

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MostChillin View Post
    I mean this with the utmost respect and sincerity but how would you have handled this situation otherwise? Without posts like this, an enthusiast and potential DBC customer would not know to be aware of a potential bad situation. I'm always looking for ways to spend my money with the small guy and understand that there are potential risks so I try to gather as much info as possible to make an informed decision.



    Thank you for sharing your experience. I feel you provided an informed post with pictures. I think the nature of the beast is that in this kind of situation, it's difficult to remove all emotions.

    So the million dollar question - what did you replace it with?
    Norco Sight

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by muddy17 View Post
    I think anyone on here would be VERY upset if they spent over 6g on that POS. Even my kids Walmart bike had better alignment and welds then that
    I was thinking the exact same thing.

    This guys post was his personal experience to let the public know what might happen. I'm sure there's perfectly built Moonshines out ther too. As one poster mentioned earlier, you're playing Russian Roulette with $6k and time.

    Plus, in my opinion, the DBC owner's comments about the welds were unacceptable. "Don't like the welds, don't buy it." How do I know I won't get an even crappier weld job if I buy one?

  42. #42
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    From the Durango site:

    Durango Moonshine Problems-capture.jpg

    In light of the "craftsmanship" shared with us by the OP, the only thing funnier than this clip is the super-lame response from the owner.

    The attention to detail is the worst I've seen, in years and years of wrenching on bikes and building boutique frames.

    IT's really not fair to position these guys among the likes of companies like Turner and Ventana, who have built their reputation on making quality USA-made frames for decades.

  43. #43
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    Holy smokes...those welds are horrendous! In this day & age (as the op has clearly demonstrated) you can not I repeat can not ship garbage like that & not expect it to end up on the web for all to see. Kinda scratching my head here.....wow...$6400 wow!

  44. #44
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    Durango Moonshine Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by MostChillin View Post
    I mean this with the utmost respect and sincerity but how would you have handled this situation otherwise?
    I actually think that rather then one big post after sh*t went south I might have broken the post up as things were progressing and taken *some* of my experiences to the forums earlier, to ask if there were other DBC owners who had alignment issues.

    As in "Hey, does this look off to you? What do you all think?"

    Sometimes getting community feedback sooner can be a good thing if it's done with genuine good will.

    Not faulting OP at this point. Tough situation.


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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by benja55 View Post
    I actually think that rather then one big post after sh*t went south I might have broken the post up as things were progressing and taken *some* of my experiences to the forums earlier, to ask if there were other DBC owners who had alignment issues.

    As in "Hey, does this look off to you? What do you all think?"

    Sometimes getting community feedback sooner can be a good thing if it's done with genuine good will.

    Not faulting OP at this point. Tough situation.


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    To be completely honest I wanted to post earlier, but I wasn't entirely sure I'd get my money back if I did. I waited until my refund cleared.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MostChillin View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight but was just wasting some time on a conference call reading this thread to help me endure the boredom. I'm getting my popcorn popped to sit back and watch this unfold...

    In the meantime, I will chime in:

    1. I would argue Kevin's original post with pictures is informative. Was it personal? Maybe a little but I would suggest that is expected when spending $6.5K on something and it not meeting expectations.

    2. I'm in the market for a new FS bike and will likely spend in the $6-$8K for it. When spending that kind of money, I expect quality. If I was going out of my way to buy a frame built in the US, I would expect an even higher level of quality than a frame built overseas. With all due respect, regardless of all the other variables, those welds are absolutely horrendous. Safe or not, they suck and I can't fathom how someone could defend those...

    3. While DBC/Jeff has every right (and frankly should) to defend themselves, I'm not so sure Jeff's response/approach, again, irregardless of all the other variables, is conducive to attracting potential customers. I know - running a business is hard...

    Popcorn is almost ready so I'll get to that and back to my conference call...
    IMO, This post pretty much nails it.
    Last edited by OldHouseMan; 06-11-2014 at 07:34 AM.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  47. #47
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    That's a tough situation to be in as a buyer and a seller/manufacturer.

    As a buyer, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. All start-up companies need buyers to take a chance on them. It's just not in my DNA to trust a start-up. Could you have done things differently/better in this situation? Sure, but I can't pass judgement as I might have done worse - who knows, who cares?

    As a seller/manufacturer, that would be tough to see your products displayed like that on a widely read forum. I'm trying not to be negative, and hopefully this advice for Durango doesn't come across as negative.

    To Durango:

    I was in the market for a new full suspension frame recently. I chose an aluminum frame over a carbon, mainly due to cost. I view a frame not only as something I can build up into an awesome ride, but I view it as art. Beautiful welds = beautiful art. In addition to a lot of other visual factors, the welds will make or break the purchase for me. I was surprised by your reply to Bondseye concerning the welds. That didn't instill a lot of confidence in your products for me.

    When I first saw MTBR's initial review of your bike, I thought it was a good looking bike, and I thought that's good for the industry to have more selection, and especially something made in the USA.

    For the sake of Durango's reputation and future success, I hope you change the way you reply on the forums and I hope you change your view on the importance of the visuals of the welds on your products.

  48. #48
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    OP, thanks for the warning. Additionally, MTBR's reviews (for example on the Moonshine) seem more (TO ME) like advertisements. Shame to waste a great name like Moonshine on a terrible execution.

  49. #49
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    Wow. Chumba quality, racist comments, and Lynskey prices. It's a unique business model, I'll give 'em that.

    Bondseye: The pic w/the silver BB and two spacers on the non-drive side: is that how they shipped it or was that done attempting to correct the chainline? Either way, that's all kinds of 'effed up.

    The silver frame looks like the seat tube was welded on rotated a couple degrees. Since it's a bent seat tube, that would explain the clearance issues at the pivot and the seat tube angling away from the bike's centerline.

    I'd say they better step up their game if planning on competing with the likes of Lenz/Turner/Ventana.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blur_4X View Post
    That's a tough situation to be in as a buyer and a seller/manufacturer.

    As a buyer, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. All start-up companies need buyers to take a chance on them. It's just not in my DNA to trust a start-up. Could you have done things differently/better in this situation?
    This post was not an attempt to handle a situation, rather a review of the products and service I received from DBC. This situation has been handled behind the scenes. The product returned, and the refund processed.

    I've used this forum and it's consumer reviews to gather valuable information for many buying decisions. I myself have posted several positive reviews of other products. Sadly, in this instance I had a negative experience. The first frame was bad. I trusted what Jeff at DBC asserted when he said "it was Fed ex." I waited for frame two and it was even worse. I asked for a refund.

    I had several professional, and highly reputable mechanics asses both frames. Both frames where found to be miss aligned and poorly welded. Would you rather I not say anything?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    Wow. Chumba quality, racist comments, and Lynskey prices. It's a unique business model, I'll give 'em that.

    Bondseye: The pic w/the silver BB and two spacers on the non-drive side: is that how they shipped it or was that done attempting to correct the chainline? Either way, that's all kinds of 'effed up.

    The silver frame looks like the seat tube was welded on rotated a couple degrees. Since it's a bent seat tube, that would explain the clearance issues at the pivot and the seat tube angling away from the bike's centerline.

    I'd say they better step up their game if planning on competing with the likes of Lenz/Turner/Ventana.
    That pic is with the spacers on the correct side. I didn't get a pic with the spacers installed incorrectly. Still, I thought it odd tgat on both frames they spec a 73mm bottom bracket and shave the shell down to 71mm.

    Your assessment of the raw (silver) frame is exactly what a few mechanics who saw it first hand have surmised. I asked Jeff at DBC for an explanation, but he ignored my emails.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    That pic is with the spacers on the correct side. I didn't get a pic with the spacers installed incorrectly. Still, I thought it odd tgat on both frames they spec a 73mm bottom bracket and shave the shell down to 71mm.

    Your assessment of the raw (silver) frame is exactly what a few mechanics who saw it first hand have surmised. I asked Jeff at DBC for an explanation, but he ignored my emails.
    That's American Italian threading.

  53. #53
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    I think if I was the president of the DBC I'd edit my post, because he seemed almost indifferent to the bikes flaws, and I'd be more than annoyed at buying such an expensive bike that was shipped that way.

    And surely this thread will turn up to anyone who searches the DBC looking for information......

  54. #54
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    While I don't mind paying a little extra for American made to support a living wage, I find it hard defend that kind of weld job on a bike that costs $6.5k let alone a Walmart bike. My five year olds bike is welded better and is aligned.

    The response from the DBC leaves much to be desired. If I ever saw a response like that from Lynskey rep on any online forum, I would not have even considered them at all. I bought Lynskey not just for their workmanship, not just to try to support living wage for Americans, but because I saw them as a classy company trying to do the right thing. Btw, I didn't realized Lynskey (and other fine American bike frame builders) used "cute Taiwanese girls" to lay down good looking beads.

    If I were you, I would offer public apology, learn the lesson, and step up your game. If the next twenty posts on Mtbr is a rave about your company, I am sure that people here are willing to forgive an early mistake.

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    Last edited by light3monkey; 06-11-2014 at 10:05 PM. Reason: type

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by benja55 View Post
    Pro-Tip: Don't badmouth other companies, not matter how big, Asian manufactured or otherwise. Norco didn't take a crap in your front yard.

    There are plenty of badass welders in mainland China, Taiwan and elsewhere. They're doing their thing and earning their keep just like you. They may not be as Enduro as you and as American as you, but that doesn't mean they're not laying down a competent bead, as you well know.
    No doubt, Norco's are all made by hand as well in Asia. Instead of drinking beer in Durango they are chewing betel nut and hitting the karaoke bars post work.

  56. #56
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    This makes a nice case study on "how not to" for businesses responding to customer's concerns online. Sea gulling (flying in, squawking, shitting on everything, then flying off) in online discussions rarely wins friends...

  57. #57
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    I'd never heard that term before. Almost made me spit coffee through my nose. Awesome.

  58. #58
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    I read the OP and thought "Man they have some issues that need to be sorted out". I read the owners reply and now wouldn't take one of there bikes if they were giving them away. Way to run a business by bad mouthing others!

  59. #59
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    With p!ss poor welds/alignment & character damaging rants such as we've witnessed in this thread alone by DBC, it seems they don't really care how they're portrayed on such a well traveled public forum. Bit of advise: maybe express yourself in a more professional manner on here where thousands of potential customers visit, revamp your quality control program if there even is one, and most of all stay off the moonshine when you're building bikes. Atrocious!

  60. #60
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    was it 6400.00 for a frame? (Please say no)....

    Never mind I got my answer...that's a complete build. Cool
    Last edited by vack; 06-17-2014 at 11:29 AM.
    Climbing Builds Character

  61. #61
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    why does this remind me of elsworth...........

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    Not trying to bash but I wouldn't buy their product based on their reply to this thread alone- let alone those welds.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by vack View Post
    was it 6400.00 for a frame? (Please say no)
    No. $6400 well spec'd with Pike, Torch, Reverb, xo1, etc
    Last edited by Bondseye; 06-12-2014 at 02:46 PM.

  64. #64
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    I'm glad you posted this, too much money to risk on a poorly built bike.

    As to DBC's comments on welds I would suggest you check out Turner, Ventana or Intense to see the level of quality expected if you are charging a premium price.

  65. #65
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    i burst out in the library on the 'sea gulling'. that's awesome.
    the bb weld looks like maybe hand weld. not bad for that. i suppose i'd like it to look better too for that kind of money. sloppy on the alignment. should have been inspected and perfect. I imagine the guy is busy looking at the build process, QC. they should photograph bikes front to back before they leave from now on. rule out damage in transit.

  66. #66
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    deleated.....

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    To the manufacturer, the only thing you will be "killing" with bikes like that is the rider. Also who hand built it? Stevie Wonder?

    This is too Damn funny !!!!!!!!! LMAO

  68. #68
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    Durango Moonshine Problems-pucker650bti.jpgThere is no hype. We don’t answer to investors and our bikes don’t come in metal containers. Our marketing department does not drive our design; our design comes from our desire to perform. We are mountain bikers building the best bikes for every size, every rider and every terrain.
    United States is home to some of the most brilliant and talented craftsmen in all the world yet we overlook their talent and are unable to see what sets them apart from the mass production because we believe “it costs too much” . The little details have not been washed over, forgotten or “bondo-ed” over. We are not rushed to finish, we will not mass produce, and we will not overcharge for quality.
    Durango is a different bike, a different company, a different experience. Come to Durango, see your bike being built, ride your bike out our front door or have it delivered to a Colorado trail, we can handle the details.


    if that is your company model jeff and the welds on that frame are what is acceptable to you, good luck. you are hardly giving a ringing endorsement for american craftsmen. people don't need a little taiwanese girl to get a quality bead laid down and using that as an argument is retarded.

    if the attached picture is your company's representation of american craftsmanship, god help america going forward. while the aesthetics of a weld are not totally indicative of the welds overall quality re penetration and strength, it is usually a good sign of quality and of utmost importance if you are touting craftsmanship as a selling point
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Durango Moonshine Problems-900032d1402373814-durango-moonshine-problems-photo-4.jpg  

    Last edited by qbert2000; 06-16-2014 at 11:40 AM.

  69. #69
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    It's like someone who loves cup cakes opened a bakery. They know what a good cup cake tastes like, but they don't know how to make one. To be honest, I may have accepted the hideous welds had either frame been aligned.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Pucker650bTI.jpg 
Views:	304 
Size:	357.5 KB 
ID:	901234There is no hype. We don’t answer to investors and our bikes don’t come in metal containers. Our marketing department does not drive our design; our design comes from our desire to perform. We are mountain bikers building the best bikes for every size, every rider and every terrain.
    United States is home to some of the most brilliant and talented craftsmen in all the world yet we overlook their talent and are unable to see what sets them apart from the mass production because we believe “it costs too much” . The little details have not been washed over, forgotten or “bondo-ed” over. We are not rushed to finish, we will not mass produce, and we will not overcharge for quality.
    Durango is a different bike, a different company, a different experience. Come to Durango, see your bike being built, ride your bike out our front door or have it delivered to a Colorado trail, we can handle the details.


    if that is your company model jeff and the welds on that frame are what is acceptable to you, good luck. you are hardly giving a ringing endorsement for american craftsmen. people don't need a little taiwanese girl to get a quality bead laid down and using that as an argument is retarded.

    if the attached picture is your company's representation of american craftsmanship, god help america going forward. while the aesthetics of a weld are not totally indicative of the welds overall quality re penetration and strength, it is usually a good sign of quality and of utmost importance if you are touting craftsmanship as a selling point
    That is absolutely the l lousiest weld I have ever seen, not hard to imagine that cracking in short order!

  71. #71
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    I was up riding with my son last weekend at Horse Gulch and before the ride I thought I would check out the bikes at DBC. I was checking out the Pucker in front of the shop and got a chance to talk to Jeff and his wife (pretty sure it was his wife) Wendy. Both were very nice, as was his son. I looked pretty close at the Pucker and would put the welds on par with my Potts that I left there while test riding the Moonshine. I didn't look too closely at the welds on the Moonshine though but the bike did ride very well, definitely more plush than my Pivot 429, although it is a much different bike. It was the first time that I have ridden a bike with that much travel and spend 95% of my riding on my SS Potts with a Type II but immediately felt comfortable on the bike. Climbed well (not as well as the Potts) but much better than I had expected and more comfortably than my Pivot. Descended much better, quick and fun. Keep in mind this was a ride with my 12 year old (and his allergies were kicked into high gear) so it was short and the climbing was slow but I did let go on a couple of downhills. One Strava segment I beat my PR on a section up there by 14 sec the first lap and then by another 3 sec when I shot back up and did it again. Says a lot about a bike (a completely different kind of bike) when I can hop on it and get 18/651 on a downhill segment in a place like Durango. I don't know if I will every need as much bike as the Moonshine but would like to spend a bit of time on the Pucker if it handles similarly. I don't know what happened between the OP and DBC but I do know that Jeff and the rest of DBC treated a casual passerby with his son very well and I would certainly consider one when the time comes for another bike.

    Jeff, sorry about the puncture on the front and thanks again for letting me take it for a spin.

  72. #72
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    I wouldnt talk s**t about little Taiwanese girls if I were you


    No moss...

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKamp View Post
    I was up riding with my son last weekend at Horse Gulch and before the ride I thought I would check out the bikes at DBC. I was checking out the Pucker in front of the shop and got a chance to talk to Jeff and his wife (pretty sure it was his wife) Wendy. Both were very nice, as was his son. I looked pretty close at the Pucker and would put the welds on par with my Potts that I left there while test riding the Moonshine. I didn't look too closely at the welds on the Moonshine though but the bike did ride very well, definitely more plush than my Pivot 429, although it is a much different bike. It was the first time that I have ridden a bike with that much travel and spend 95% of my riding on my SS Potts with a Type II but immediately felt comfortable on the bike. Climbed well (not as well as the Potts) but much better than I had expected and more comfortably than my Pivot. Descended much better, quick and fun. Keep in mind this was a ride with my 12 year old (and his allergies were kicked into high gear) so it was short and the climbing was slow but I did let go on a couple of downhills. One Strava segment I beat my PR on a section up there by 14 sec the first lap and then by another 3 sec when I shot back up and did it again. Says a lot about a bike (a completely different kind of bike) when I can hop on it and get 18/651 on a downhill segment in a place like Durango. I don't know if I will every need as much bike as the Moonshine but would like to spend a bit of time on the Pucker if it handles similarly. I don't know what happened between the OP and DBC but I do know that Jeff and the rest of DBC treated a casual passerby with his son very well and I would certainly consider one when the time comes for another bike.

    Jeff, sorry about the puncture on the front and thanks again for letting me take it for a spin.
    What happened was I bought a Moonshine and was sent two poorly welded and misaligned frames. When I wrote a Reveiw reflecting that fact Jeff wrote a colorful response.

    Jeff was very nice up until the point he sent the replacement frame and it was also bad. I also think the concept of the Moonshine is solid, and rode well despite the fact that the one I rode was so misaligned that the links contacted the seat tube.

    Though I can't speak to the Pucker having not seen or ridden one, if anyone buys a Durango, check the craftsmanship, welds, and alignment of your frame rigorously. The friendly people bit changes fast if there's a problem, and the lifetime warranty will be useless if they don't fix their quality controll issues and go out of business.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKamp View Post
    I was up riding with my son last weekend at Horse Gulch and before the ride I thought I would check out the bikes at DBC. I was checking out the Pucker in front of the shop and got a chance to talk to Jeff and his wife (pretty sure it was his wife) Wendy. Both were very nice, as was his son. I looked pretty close at the Pucker and would put the welds on par with my Potts that I left there while test riding the Moonshine. I didn't look too closely at the welds on the Moonshine though but the bike did ride very well, definitely more plush than my Pivot 429, although it is a much different bike. It was the first time that I have ridden a bike with that much travel and spend 95% of my riding on my SS Potts with a Type II but immediately felt comfortable on the bike. Climbed well (not as well as the Potts) but much better than I had expected and more comfortably than my Pivot. Descended much better, quick and fun. Keep in mind this was a ride with my 12 year old (and his allergies were kicked into high gear) so it was short and the climbing was slow but I did let go on a couple of downhills. One Strava segment I beat my PR on a section up there by 14 sec the first lap and then by another 3 sec when I shot back up and did it again. Says a lot about a bike (a completely different kind of bike) when I can hop on it and get 18/651 on a downhill segment in a place like Durango. I don't know if I will every need as much bike as the Moonshine but would like to spend a bit of time on the Pucker if it handles similarly. I don't know what happened between the OP and DBC but I do know that Jeff and the rest of DBC treated a casual passerby with his son very well and I would certainly consider one when the time comes for another bike.

    Jeff, sorry about the puncture on the front and thanks again for letting me take it for a spin.
    as nice as it is to read your story, the post by jeff the owner of dbc trashing the op and using negative racial stereotypes to defend the horrible looking welds on the bike pictured, trumps your story. how nice someone is to you before they get your money is much less important than how they treat you after they have your money.

    there are a lot of great bikes out there and lots of small companies owned by great people. so far, dbc doesn't look like one of those companies. i can find better ways to drop the kind of cash he is asking. plus the whole premise of complete bikes only because the bike needs or deserves quality components is bull5hit. a good suspension design rides well regardless if you have high end components or middle of the pack parts. the only real difference between riding a bike specced with say slx and xtr will be weight.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    plus the whole premise of complete bikes only because the bike needs or deserves quality components is bull5hit. a good suspension design rides well regardless if you have high end components or middle of the pack parts. the only real difference between riding a bike specced with say slx and xtr will be weight.
    I hadn't seen this, so I searched around and found this post from DBC:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle Chief View Post
    Sorry so late to respond. New to this forum thing. DBC recently decided to only offer the Moonshine in a complete build to keep the ride quality at the highest level of our design as well as keeping the value high. We only plan on building 500 total bikes per year and want every one of them to be the very best value we can offer. Honestly, frame only sales are MUCH easier and hold higher margins for small frame builders but leave the door open to someone putting less than desirable components on it and therefore getting less than desirable ride quality. Many riders (as read in other posts and who visit our factory) do not recognize or understand the importance of quality componentry...and how it affects the overall ride quality. Cheers, Jeff-Durango Bike Company
    Seriously? What a douche. I ride nothing but SLX/Zee grade stuff at this point. As you said, functionally equivalent and no tears when I smash it on a rock. You can mount Di2 XTR on that Moonshine and it won't stop you from noticing the knocking noise when the linkage hits the frame.

  76. #76
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    Interesting thread. I live in Durango, and the first I heard of this brand was at 24HITOP this spring. I'm not quite as In The Loop as I used to be, but I was pretty surprised that a high-end manufacturer popped up out of nowhere. I had hoped that it was the OLD Durango Bike Company that used to make amazing high-end steel frames ~97-00.

    There's an old joke...
    "How do you create a million-dollar business in Durango?"
    "Start one with two million."

    For your reading enjoyment....
    The Durango Herald 06/05/2014 | A new design

  77. #77
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    I'll be in Durango Saturday....I am looking forward to checking out DBC and looking at their bikes. I like that a small company is trying to make it....I also like that they responded to a negative post.

    I'd like to see companies stick up for themselves a bit more....now that does not mean I'm siding with them or against them....but someone else posted the perfect response. There are 3 sides to every story....we have two of them....so maybe we can figure out the truth at some point.

    Good Luck to the OP with your new frame and bike you'll buy elsewhere.

    and

    Good Luck to DBC, remember bumps in the road only make ya stronger.
    Climbing Builds Character

  78. #78
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    Three sides? Pictures don't lie or take sides. Look at the welds, look at the alignment, look at Jeff's assaholic response. I love his suspension ideas, and DBC's made in America ethic. That's why I gave them my hard earned cash, but I can't ride ideas. I'm sure the demos are sorted, and I'm sure some of what they produce is welded straight. All I'll say is if you choose to buy have your frame thoroughly checked out and best of luck.
    Durango Moonshine Problems-photo-3.jpg
    Heres another pic I forgot to post

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    Three sides? Pictures don't lie or take sides. Look at the welds, look at the alignment, look at Jeff's assaholic response. I love his suspension ideas, and DBC's made in America ethic. That's why I gave them my hard earned cash, but I can't ride ideas. I'm sure the demos are sorted, and I'm sure some of what they produce is welded straight. All I'll say is if you choose to buy have your frame thoroughly checked out and best of luck.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Heres another pic I forgot to post

    Damn, that's really ugly. Now there's a weld to do American craftsmen proud. Jesus. No way that should leave a custom shop. Ever.

  80. #80
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    Now THAT is a weld!

    Durango Moonshine Problems-dsc5472%5B1%5D.jpg
    It's second pass, but more of what I would expect.

  81. #81
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    Ti and Al are going to look different, hopefully. Doesn't really change the fact much.

    Quote Originally Posted by WA-CO View Post
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    It's second pass, but more of what I would expect.
    count your blessings

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by WA-CO View Post
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    It's second pass, but more of what I would expect.
    Nice. What is that? Looks ti.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    Nice. What is that? Looks ti.
    probably a Moots or Erikson.
    count your blessings

  84. #84
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    Hard to compare welds, esp Ti to Al...

    As someone who's been a professional framebuilder and worked with Ti, steel and Al, I will say without question that Al was both the least satisfying and at first the most challenging material to work with, especially if one is already comfortable with steel and Ti and moving to Al.

    It's just a very different beast in how it responds to temperature, how it runs when soft/liquid etc, loud AC welder etc.

    Looking at these DBC welds, they basically look like someone who is getting to know Al and is still learning. That's purely IMO. Nothing wrong with that, except that when you pay a premium you expect top quality, both in the integrity and the aesthetics. My first few Al frames looked very similar, but I wasn't selling them as they were prototypes for the outfit I was working for.

    The dirty, not-very-secret of great TIG welding is knowing how to use a pulser well. It's a skill, but once you've got the hand/eye down it's not rocket science laying down a bead that's strong and sexy to the eye.
    - -benja- -

  85. #85
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    here is a quality aluminum weld. can't compare a double pass ti weld to aluminum, two different beasts.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Durango Moonshine Problems-dscf2830.jpg  


  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    here is a quality aluminum weld. can't compare a double pass ti weld to aluminum, two different beasts.
    Sweet! Is that a Lenz?

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    Sweet! Is that a Lenz?
    no, it is a knolly. just some crappy made in taiwan frame, probably welded by a little girl. it can in no way compare to that finely crafted, made in the good ole usa durango. lol

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzer16 View Post
    probably a Moots or Erikson.
    Winnah, winnah, chicken dinnah. Seat Junction of a Moots Road Bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benja55 View Post
    The dirty, not-very-secret of great TIG welding is knowing how to use a pulser well. It's a skill, but once you've got the hand/eye down it's not rocket science laying down a bead that's strong and sexy to the eye.
    I took a welding class, therefore I'm an expert. Our instructor who was a masters degree level educator could lay down a first pass, non-pulse bead that was pretty impressive. My welds, uh, let's just say, that any sort of certification wasn't in my future.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    no, it is a knolly. just some crappy made in taiwan frame, probably welded by a little girl. it can in no way compare to that finely crafted, made in the good ole usa durango. lol
    Durango Moonshine Problems-image.jpg

  91. #91
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    ^Works for me.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
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    I have a new Banshee and I know this is who welded my frame. I too am in Georgia and I am looking forward to many hot rides on it.

    I was taught that if you don't have anything good to say then say nothing. I have nothing to say about Ellsworth.
    "Everything popular is wrong." -Oscar Wilde

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by HELLBELLY View Post
    I have a new Banshee and I know this is who welded my frame. I too am in Georgia and I am looking forward to many hot rides on it.

    I was taught that if you don't have anything good to say then say nothing. I have nothing to say about Ellsworth.
    Ellsworth welds are very good. They have their issues but weld quality isn't one of them. IMO they are overpriced and I personally don't like their aesthetics but they have their fans.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    Ellsworth welds are very good. They have their issues but weld quality isn't one of them. IMO they are overpriced and I personally don't like their aesthetics but they have their fans.
    Like I said, I have nothing say. I will share only that my experience (and many others around me) with them and their frame quality lead me to look elsewhere. This was over a dozen years ago so perhaps they've improved.
    "Everything popular is wrong." -Oscar Wilde

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    I had a great experience with DBC recently. Jeff was kind enough to set up a private demo with me in Phoenix on my local trails and I have to say, the bike was pretty great. In short, it climbed and descended well. Jeff spent the time to answer any of my questions, and give me some background into the company and the bike. It's not often that you can get this kind of treatment from the owner of a company you are looking to purchase from.

    All that being said, after seeing the build quality on OP's frames, I am looking elsewhere. Specifically to Guerrilla Gravity and their Megatrail. Having not ridden it yet though I'll direct everyone to this review by vitalmtb: Guerrilla Gravity Megatrail Frame - Reviews, Comparisons, Specs - Mountain Bike Frames - Vital MTB

    Thanks Bondseye for helping me dodge a bullet.

  96. #96
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    I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I bought my Moonshine, I may not have purchased it. My whole experience with Durango Bike Company was awesome. My bike is aligned and rides better than any similar bike I have owned. I'm sorry this happened to the op, but, reading the whole thread, and all the responses, wow. I'm not sure I get the racism charge. I took the reply as addressing the reality of child labor in eastern countries. Plenty of quality bikes are made in Taiwan, and China, and the people who live there have just as much right to work as anyone, but don't confuse quality and cost. The cost of an offshore frame isn't just measured by the retail price, but also by the environmental impact, and the human impact. These things seem to get overlooked sometimes. I'm glad anytime I hear about boutique builders trying to source local parts, or partnering with other companies who share their vision, and nothing is wrong with trying to make sure your neighbors have jobs. If more companies tried to value the communities that support their end products, there would be an incredibly positive effect on business and our environment. Jeff and Wendy were both super helpful through the entire process of ordering, spec'ing, and shipping my bike, now I have a beautiful bike that has become my new standard for all other enduro style bikes. Like I said, I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I bought my Moonshine.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggyllama View Post
    I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I bought my Moonshine, I may not have purchased it. My whole experience with Durango Bike Company was awesome. My bike is aligned and rides better than any similar bike I have owned. I'm sorry this happened to the op, but, reading the whole thread, and all the responses, wow. I'm not sure I get the racism charge. I took the reply as addressing the reality of child labor in eastern countries. Plenty of quality bikes are made in Taiwan, and China, and the people who live there have just as much right to work as anyone, but don't confuse quality and cost. The cost of an offshore frame isn't just measured by the retail price, but also by the environmental impact, and the human impact. These things seem to get overlooked sometimes. I'm glad anytime I hear about boutique builders trying to source local parts, or partnering with other companies who share their vision, and nothing is wrong with trying to make sure your neighbors have jobs. If more companies tried to value the communities that support their end products, there would be an incredibly positive effect on business and our environment. Jeff and Wendy were both super helpful through the entire process of ordering, spec'ing, and shipping my bike, now I have a beautiful bike that has become my new standard for all other enduro style bikes. Like I said, I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I bought my Moonshine.
    As an American craftsman myself, I have always tried to buy American made. At the time I made my purchase the Moonshine appeared to be the best made in America Option for my riding style, and needs. I looked at and rode them all.
    Unfortunately the two frames I received were unrideable, poorly built, and with welds that profesional mechanics said wouldn't last.
    I still think the concept is good, and the spec right on. Also Jeff's customer service was great until there was a problem.
    I hope your frame is better than mine were. Unlike you however, I wish someone would have warned me before I wasted half the summer dealing with DBC and shoddy craftsmanship.
    I didn't think Jeff's response was racist, but it did seem unprofessional and juvenile.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggyllama View Post
    I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I bought my Moonshine, I may not have purchased it. My whole experience with Durango Bike Company was awesome. My bike is aligned and rides better than any similar bike I have owned. I'm sorry this happened to the op, but, reading the whole thread, and all the responses, wow. I'm not sure I get the racism charge. I took the reply as addressing the reality of child labor in eastern countries. Plenty of quality bikes are made in Taiwan, and China, and the people who live there have just as much right to work as anyone, but don't confuse quality and cost. The cost of an offshore frame isn't just measured by the retail price, but also by the environmental impact, and the human impact. These things seem to get overlooked sometimes. I'm glad anytime I hear about boutique builders trying to source local parts, or partnering with other companies who share their vision, and nothing is wrong with trying to make sure your neighbors have jobs. If more companies tried to value the communities that support their end products, there would be an incredibly positive effect on business and our environment. Jeff and Wendy were both super helpful through the entire process of ordering, spec'ing, and shipping my bike, now I have a beautiful bike that has become my new standard for all other enduro style bikes. Like I said, I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I bought my Moonshine.
    Maybe you could post some pics up of your new ride, especially the welds.
    Mrwhlr's stepmom rides a 5 spot

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondseye View Post
    As an American craftsman myself, I have always tried to buy American made. At the time I made my purchase the Moonshine appeared to be the best made in America Option for my riding style, and needs. I looked at and rode them all.
    Unfortunately the two frames I received were unrideable, poorly built, and with welds that profesional mechanics said wouldn't last.
    I still think the concept is good, and the spec right on. Also Jeff's customer service was great until there was a problem.
    I hope your frame is better than mine were. Unlike you however, I wish someone would have warned me before I wasted half the summer dealing with DBC and shoddy craftsmanship.
    I didn't think Jeff's response was racist, but it did seem unprofessional and juvenile.
    I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the same experience that I have. The concept is good and the bike I received is great. I'm not trying to nit pick, or undermine your case. I just wanted to share my experience and give a different perspective. As far as my reply goes, it was to the entire thread, not just your original post.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndurBro View Post
    Maybe you could post some pics up of your new ride, especially the welds.
    I'll upload some photos as soon as I can.

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