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  1. #1
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    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition

    There are a few threads related to the various 650b chinese hardtail frames, most of them started by the related suppliers (Hong Fu, Iplay, Cabonal etc).

    Similar to the 29er and Road Forums, it would be a good idea to share all the ordering/assembly /ride feedback in a single thread.

    So has someone alredy ordered or better, received any new toy from the Far East?

    Thanks for sharing!

    Fab
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  2. #2
    Wrench
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    I'm interested in this as well. I'll be wanting to build up a 650b rigid carbon bike from a cheap chinese frame sometime in the future. Having ride reports would be nice.

  3. #3
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    I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on this
    27.5" MTB Frame Full carbon mountain bike 27.5ER (650B) BB30 Frame 17", 19", 21"-in Bicycle Frame from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com

    I am trying to chat with the seller but the time difference doesn't help so I'll email him to check the finish options and the headset/BB configuration.

    I'd also like to get a confirmed weight; I guess the M will be around 1200g.

    Slightly heavier than the other options (scott, Axevo, Haibike etc) but at a fraction of the price.
    flyMTBfish

  4. #4
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    Why not get a On One 456C instead? Sure looks nicer and the price is pretty close with a company that will stand behind its product.

    On-One Carbon 456 Frame
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterat Pat View Post
    Why not get a On One 456C instead? Sure looks nicer and the price is pretty close with a company that will stand behind its product.

    On-One Carbon 456 Frame
    The 456C is pretty heavy, as is the Whippet for that matter, so if you're looking for a lightweight frame they aren't it. The weights listed for both of these frames does not include the bolt on swap outs. But I can live with the extra weight for a better overall frame.
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  6. #6
    Wrench
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterat Pat View Post
    Why not get a On One 456C instead? Sure looks nicer and the price is pretty close with a company that will stand behind its product.

    On-One Carbon 456 Frame
    The 456C is too slack. I'd rather have the whippet.

    Or, I could check this out. Comes with a fork too!

    27.5" MTB Frame Full carbon mountain bike 27.5ER (650B) BSA Frame and fork 17", 19", 21"-in Bicycle Frame from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com

    I'm a long way from building up a hardtail, so I've got time to sit it out and see how these frames play out.

  7. #7
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    I considered building a Whippet (beautiful frame) but I will take the risk of ordering overseas for a small weight saving and "racier"geometry. Cheaper too.

    I am currently dealing with a few vendors from Aliexpress and ebay and I have to say that communication is pretty good; in a few days I will place the order for this frame

    http://forums.mtbr.com/650b/newest-c...-a-818331.html

    Curious how claimed weight varies depending on the vendors, the very same frame quoted from 1050 to 1200g.

    Realistically 1200-1250 g will be the real weight of my 17'' frame, 300g less than the Scott Scale 650b(Schurter replica) but also 1700$ cheaper!!

    I am also looking for a slightly used Fox F-series with tapered steerer.
    Already have the new Magura MT6, the new rims (ZTR Crest) will be relaced to AMClassic hubs.

    This will be an interesting winter
    flyMTBfish

  8. #8
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    I don't see a 17" frame listed from that vendor. They provide geo's for 16, 18 and a 20.

    Make sure to not focus on weight alone unless you are a WW. As you know, there are other benefits of carbon. I was surprised that my 17.5" 29er chinese carbon frame weighed in at around 1300g. The quality of the ride on trails made me forget about the weight. Plus, I was still able to build a 22 lbs bike.

    I am certain that my next build will be a 650b. I just need to decide if I want another carbon bike. I might go alloy.

    Keep us posted on your purchase.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausable View Post
    I considered building a Whippet (beautiful frame) but I will take the risk of ordering overseas for a small weight saving and "racier"geometry. Cheaper too.
    The Whippet is pretty racy as is; it has 10mm shorter chainstays than the frame you linked and the price is the same ($350). It looks like the Chinese frame is a 71 deg HTA with a 485mm a-to-c fork? Looks like the Whippet is a little slacker there (70 deg with a "fully extended 80mm fork", which is probably what, 450mm a-to-c?). The Whippet keeps the same 105mm headtube through all it's sizes though, while it grows on the other frame.

    I do like their chainstay mounted brakes, but I also like On-One's swapouts.

    Anyways, let us know how it goes. I'd be interested in hearing your impressions.

  11. #11
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    Whippet is heavy? No, I had one and it's far from heavy. It was 3lb or less for an 18" IIRC - not the lightest frame out there, but certainly lighter than any Ti or alloy equivalent. Ordering a 3lb frame from a supplier with a domestic sales force (Unrealcycles.com) that has a history (for me even) of solid support, makes far more sense in my mind than ordering an anemic carbon frame from someone that has no support history or domestic representation & no need to support you. Seems like the latter option (super light frame + unknown customer support legacy) is just begging for problems.

    My $.02
    Last edited by Entrenador; 11-04-2012 at 08:55 PM.
    Great prices - some sweet vintage stuff: http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showprod...product=101010

  12. #12
    The White Jeff W
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    The Geo of the Whippeti s also very close to the Yelli Screamy which is a great bike. If they had a Whippet in XL I'd build a 650b racer out of one

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I577 using Tapatalk 2
    No moss...

  13. #13
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    Some of you might look into DengFu also dengfubikes.com Can't link as I don't have enough posts. Mainly a RB guy whose lurking and getting info on possibly getting a 650b

    Quite a people over at that RoadBikeReview forum built up their Road Bikes and several people have done multiple group buys through them over at Velobuild.com It might be worth talking to some of those people about their experience and seeing their RB builds

  14. #14
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    Everybody worrying about .5lb weight in a MTB frame, seems insane to me, the extra half pound of carbon layup might mean years of life and much greater impact resistance which is carbon's weakness. Spend the money on light wheels and tires if you want something that actually effects performance.
    Last edited by Fred Smedley; 11-03-2012 at 10:57 PM.

  15. #15
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    I have been thinking about buying a chinese carbon frame to build up as a project this winter. so I hope some others do as well so I can follow some others progress as well. I am inerested in finding out what others think of these frames.
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  16. #16
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    There's three or four THOUSAND posts about the carbon 29er frames in the 29er Bikes forum. Wheel size and slightly geometry differences aside, the same companies are more or less producing the same frames that have quite a few satisfied customers amongst the 29er crowd - myself included.

    I'll be getting my fiance one of these quite soon. Just need to scoop up a 26er Fox fork. Should build up into a 17-18lb bike pretty easily.

    Anyone want to trade a tapered Fox 100mm fork for a 100mm SID XX non-tapered?
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  17. #17
    Uncle
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffw-13 View Post
    The Geo of the Whippeti s also very close to the Yelli Screamy which is a great bike. If they had a Whippet in XL I'd build a 650b racer out of one

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I577 using Tapatalk 2
    Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think this is remotely close to true. The Whippet is a quick-steering 26" wheeled XC race bike. With a longer fork, it becomes more stable, but it doesn't compare to the Yelli Screamy. Perhaps the numbers aren't that different, but a 70* HTA on a 29er is a very different beast than a 70* HTA on a 26" bike. I've owned a Whippet and I have a 29er that is steeper than the Yelli. The 29er is by far more "trail" oriented than the Whippet, and the Yelli even more so than my 29er. Comparing apples to airplanes here.
    Great prices - some sweet vintage stuff: http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showprod...product=101010

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
    Everybody worrying about .5lb weight in a MTB frame, seems insane to me, the extra half pound of carbon layup might mean years of life and much greater impact resistance which is carbon's weakness. Spend the money on light wheels and tires if you want something that actually effects performance.
    I vote for Fred.
    Great prices - some sweet vintage stuff: http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showprod...product=101010

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    There's three or four THOUSAND posts about the carbon 29er frames in the 29er Bikes forum. Wheel size and slightly geometry differences aside, the same companies are more or less producing the same frames that have quite a few satisfied customers amongst the 29er crowd - myself included.

    I'll be getting my fiance one of these quite soon. Just need to scoop up a 26er Fox fork. Should build up into a 17-18lb bike pretty easily.

    Anyone want to trade a tapered Fox 100mm fork for a 100mm SID XX non-tapered?
    Cool, show the pics when it happens.

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    I'm looking at this closely and I'd like some input on my idea. I want a hardtail for longer rides but am a bit strapped for cash so I'm hoping to purchase one of these 650B frames and moving all my old hardtail stuff across except for the fork.
    I'm not a big fan of an xc geo bike so I'd like to get a longer fork (140mm too much??) to slacken it out and would put a short stem and wide bars on it for comfort.
    initially the wheelset would be 26 until I have enough cash for a 650B set.
    Is this madness? Doing some searching it appears teh longer fork shouldn;t concern me to much as I can run more sag if needs be.
    How will a 26 inch wheelset go on a 650B frame?

    Cheers for advice in advance.

  21. #21
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    Depends

    Quote Originally Posted by crowash View Post
    I'm looking at this closely and I'd like some input on my idea. I want a hardtail for longer rides but am a bit strapped for cash so I'm hoping to purchase one of these 650B frames and moving all my old hardtail stuff across except for the fork.
    I'm not a big fan of an xc geo bike so I'd like to get a longer fork (140mm too much??) to slacken it out and would put a short stem and wide bars on it for comfort.
    initially the wheelset would be 26 until I have enough cash for a 650B set.
    Is this madness? Doing some searching it appears teh longer fork shouldn;t concern me to much as I can run more sag if needs be.
    How will a 26 inch wheelset go on a 650B frame?

    Cheers for advice in advance.
    You talking the On One 456 or what. I believe they work 100-140 forks. As for 26" wheels on 650 specific frame would think you'd be experiencing more pedal strikes then you're used to.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  22. #22
    just some guy
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    26 inches wheels on a 650b frame probably won't work that well. I assume, given the thread name, that you are referring to Chinese frames right? I think the Chinese frames are specced for 100mm travel forks.

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    Yeah the Chinese frames are the ones.. something like this: 3k Full Carbon Glossy 27.5ER 650B Mountain MTB Bike Frame Headset - 17" 19" 21" | eBay
    So if I add a longer fork I'll be slackening the HA and raising the BB a little?
    26 wheels would only be a short term solution, the issue will be more around do I get a 26inch fork on the cheap or go straight out for a 650B fork.... can;t beleive how quickly the options have made it to market.

  24. #24
    The White Jeff W
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think this is remotely close to true. The Whippet is a quick-steering 26" wheeled XC race bike. With a longer fork, it becomes more stable, but it doesn't compare to the Yelli Screamy. Perhaps the numbers aren't that different, but a 70* HTA on a 29er is a very different beast than a 70* HTA on a 26" bike. I've owned a Whippet and I have a 29er that is steeper than the Yelli. The 29er is by far more "trail" oriented than the Whippet, and the Yelli even more so than my 29er. Comparing apples to airplanes here.

    With an 80 mm fork both bikes have 70* head angle. 73* seat angle, ETT is only 7mm difference, chainstay is 1mm difference. Just sayin...
    No moss...

  25. #25
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    Chinese frame +140=.....

    Quote Originally Posted by crowash View Post
    Yeah the Chinese frames are the ones.. something like this: 3k Full Carbon Glossy 27.5ER 650B Mountain MTB Bike Frame Headset - 17" 19" 21" | eBay
    So if I add a longer fork I'll be slackening the HA and raising the BB a little?
    26 wheels would only be a short term solution, the issue will be more around do I get a 26inch fork on the cheap or go straight out for a 650B fork.... can;t beleive how quickly the options have made it to market.
    Fail! Could be wrong but going 40mm over geo on any frame design, regardless of maker would not be recommended. Possibly catastrophic. Let alone bike would be a little whacky with the combination of long travel fork and 26" wheels.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  26. #26
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    Yeah fair enough, that's the advice I'm after 120 mm would probably be plenty for me but I can't see 100 doing the job.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Fail! Could be wrong but going 40mm over geo on any frame design, regardless of maker would not be recommended. Possibly catastrophic. Let alone bike would be a little whacky with the combination of long travel fork and 26" wheels.
    JMac is right, it sounds like it would be hugely risky and you could end up with a weird handling critter.

  28. #28
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    Has anyone actually build one of these Chinese frames? They keep popping up on my E-Bay Searches.
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  29. #29
    A waste of time it is is
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    Quote Originally Posted by crowash View Post
    I'm looking at this closely and I'd like some input on my idea. I want a hardtail for longer rides but am a bit strapped for cash so I'm hoping to purchase one of these 650B frames and moving all my old hardtail stuff across except for the fork.
    I'm not a big fan of an xc geo bike so I'd like to get a longer fork (140mm too much??) to slacken it out and would put a short stem and wide bars on it for comfort.
    initially the wheelset would be 26 until I have enough cash for a 650B set.
    Is this madness? Doing some searching it appears teh longer fork shouldn;t concern me to much as I can run more sag if needs be.
    How will a 26 inch wheelset go on a 650B frame?

    Cheers for advice in advance.
    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    You talking the On One 456 or what. I believe they work 100-140 forks. As for 26" wheels on 650 specific frame would think you'd be experiencing more pedal strikes then you're used to.
    I am going to second this. What you have described is exactly what the On-One 456 is and they don't cost much more than the topic of this original thread. It is a 26" frame that will work with 100 to 140mm travel forks. It is also 650 compatible so when the time comes get your 650b wheels. Find a 26" fork now that is 650b compatible, white bros, x-fusion etc and you're good to go without spending money on short term solutions.

  30. #30
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    Yeah a carbon On One looks great but will come in at double the price of the chinese frame here in Australia. That's OK though I'm pretty happy to build up something slowly.
    Its kind of funny that putting 26 wheels on a 650 frame would create havoc but 650 wheels on a 26 inch frame is an improvement.

  31. #31
    A waste of time it is is
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    do as I did and wait for a sale. I got the frame, a set of FSA 26" wheels, headset and some spares for about $740 Australian. Sold the wheelset which brought it down under $500

  32. #32
    em2
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    there is an FS carbon frame for 650b wheels by HONSEN SPORTS (search frame HM156)
    Looks like the chinese 29er FS , It has 108mm rear travel , works with 120mm fork

  33. #33
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    Hey people,
    This is my first post here.

    I just ordered a 12k 16" Glossy 650b with a BB30 to build a SS for my wife.
    I had an excellent experience dealing with Hong-Fu. Ask for Jane Jiam.
    She answered my questions, corrected language issues and gave some
    confidence that I will recieve the frame as ordered.
    Risky, yes! The price was $520 shipped to my door. Tapered Headset included.
    I just converted my Carbon Sette Phantom into a 650B. So far, everything fits well.

    2009 19" carbon Sette Phantom
    Manitou R7 pro
    Stans Crest 650B
    Vee Rubber 650B
    Edge Composites for Seatpost, Handlebars and Stem.
    Surly 19t Cog
    Spot Brand cranks
    Avid Hydros
    Terry Fly Saddle

    I'll answer question and post progress soon
    Rich
    Last edited by rbelkin; 11-12-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  34. #34
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    Welcome aboard. Post pics! How tall is your wife? I've been thinking of getting one of these for my wife, who is 5 feet, 5 inches tall.

  35. #35
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    Hey Talabardio,
    Yes, I will post pics of my Sette soon.
    The 16" frame from Hong-Fu is on order and won't be here for at least a few weeks.
    If you interested, I have a beautiful 15" Norco Aluminum frame that fits the 650 wheels perfectly. The bike was built as a 26er SS, 21 lb, bike but did not sell.
    I rigged it for 27.5 with a Manitou R7 Pro fork and it looks amazing.
    The pics shows it when it was a 26er. The frame is for sale for $175 + shipping.
    Talk with you soon.

    Rich
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-100_0002.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-100_0001.jpg  


  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories View Post
    I have been thinking about buying a chinese carbon frame to build up as a project this winter. so I hope some others do as well so I can follow some others progress as well. I am inerested in finding out what others think of these frames.
    A 650b carbon frame for your reference: Ares - 27.5er - 27.5er MTB - Frames

  37. #37
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    Just pulled the trigger and ordered the frame.
    Before placing the order I evaluated possible options like the new Focus Raven 650b (plenty of hardtail choices here in europe), but the cheapest "brand name" frameset was at least 3 times the price.
    I was dumb enough to forget to specify frame size and BB option on the Paypal comments, sent them a separate mail and the next day the frame was shipped with the right specifications.
    So far so good!
    flyMTBfish

  38. #38
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    Hey Ausable,
    What frame did you order and from who?
    Are going SS or gears?
    Attached are pictures of my new build. I only rode it once
    and I need to tune it up.

    Thanks
    Rich
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-100_0142.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-100_0143.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-100_0147.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-100_0146.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-100_0145.jpg  


  39. #39
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    FYI, the whippet and 456 are no longer $350. They are now $599.

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    We should try to consolidate this info in a nice organized thread. I just want to contribute that I bought a hong fu frame

    2012 Full carbon mountain bike MTB 26ER frame 21" Fork-in Bicycle Frame from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com'


    and although the fork seemed to be a 29er fork, No way shape or how does a 27.5 rim fit back there. I was hoping this would be similar to the on one whippet.


    All I want is a nice 27.5 frame.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowOnO2 View Post
    FYI, the whippet and 456 are no longer $350. They are now $599.
    Yeah, this is a shame. It's not the price that is bad, but their shipping is over the top. On-One usa doesn't have the same good deals.

  42. #42
    just some guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifu View Post
    We should try to consolidate this info in a nice organized thread. I just want to contribute that I bought a hong fu frame

    2012 Full carbon mountain bike MTB 26ER frame 21" Fork-in Bicycle Frame from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com'


    and although the fork seemed to be a 29er fork, No way shape or how does a 27.5 rim fit back there. I was hoping this would be similar to the on one whippet.


    All I want is a nice 27.5 frame.
    You bought a 26er frame from the looks of it. I believe that Hong Fu makes a 27.5 specific frame.

  43. #43
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    I did. It was cheaper than listed now, and hoped it would convert, like on one whippet/456.

    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    You bought a 26er frame from the looks of it. I believe that Hong Fu makes a 27.5 specific frame.

  44. #44
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    Sifu did you originally want a 26er or did you order the wrong item?
    Hong fu does indeed make a 27.5 specific frame and fork which are almost identical to yours, but dedicated to the bigger wheels
    I bought one, see my previous posts or search ebay/aliexpress for "27.5 carbon frame"
    flyMTBfish

  45. #45
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    As usual a sniff of anything new and these guys are all over it in a jiffy
    Just hope the geo in the right frame(pun meant) for the first buyers

    hongfu-bikes.com/html_products/2013-650B-Full--Suspension-283.html]2013 650B Full Suspension[/url]

  46. #46
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    I agree, they have been quicker to sniff the new trend than many other builders in the US.
    Hopefully there is nothing impressively difficult in copying an HT geometry - and also the manufacturing process should be well honed.
    Finger crossed!
    flyMTBfish

  47. #47
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    Happy to confirm that the frame has been delivered last week, slightly more that 2 weeks after I placed the order. This sets a new record for shipping from China to Europe, even shorter than 100g envelopes from Dealextreme!
    Sorry for the lack of time for pictures, I can say that the item is perfectly as described in the many pictures from the vendors. If anyone needs any specific detail I’ll try to post.
    This is the preliminary list of pros and cons
    LIKE
    >The frame came properly packed, with all the delicate bits protected by foam, plugs or spacers. Could use a sturdier box, which came slightly “bumped” but no damage.
    >Beautiful finish, 3k weave plus clear coat. I thought to remove paint and go for the matte look but there’s too much work involved, forget about it.
    >Actual weight: 1130g on my digital scale ; exactly within the claimed tolerances. This is a great weight for the money.
    >Clean (internal) cable routing ;
    >Included headset is decent quality (well there’s little more than the bearings…) Compression plug for carbon forks is a nice touch
    >Dropout spacing spot – on ; BB threads OK; Headset housing seems to have the right tolerance,but bearings not . fitted yet.

    DON’T LIKE
    >Internal routing for rear brake - too much fuss (and bleeding required) for limited advantage
    >Chainstays are a bit on the chunky side, I expect a relatively harsh ride, we'll see.
    >No chainsuck protection plate embedded in the chainstays

    The quick delivery took me by surprise, I just ordered the fork but still have to order the rims and relace the wheels;
    I will update if I find anything relevant during the build.
    Cheers
    flyMTBfish

  48. #48
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    Just joined so that I can post about my new-to-me Hongfu FM-136. My background: I grew up riding bikes and then took a 20 year hiatus from it. I got back into it by doing triathlons and road racing since 2007 and then started doing cyclocross a few years ago. Discovered that I preferred that to road racing and noodled on the idea of getting an MTB for a long time. Because I research everything to death, I decided to wait until I could get a 650B bike built.

    After looking around a lot and reading a lot of the discussion here on the Hongfu FM-136, I opted to take the plunge and get one. I've attached a picture of my bike that I just completed on Saturday.

    The build is:

    Hongfu FM-136 650B frame in size 18 (I'm 5'10 with a 31.5" inseam), 1050grams as weighed by my not-so-precise scale
    90mm 6 degree rise stem
    Rockshox Revelation XX 650B fork - they have 100mm travel, and the frame was designed for 100mm travel
    light-bicycle.com 25mm rim 650B tubeless ready wheels with 15QR, 32 spoke count, novatec hubs, weighed in at 1525 grams
    SRAM XO 2x10 42/28 175mm crank with 11-36 cassette, type 2 rear derailleur
    Schwalbe Rocket Ron 650B 2.25" tires, tubeless
    Selle San Marco Aspide Arrowhead saddle

    The build took me about a week to complete, which was more a function of me taking my time because I'm unfamiliar with building MTBs (I've built about 6 bikes, all of them road bikes and those typically take me about 1-2 days). I had to learn about

    The only things I had an issue with were (1) one of the holes on the stem wasn't threaded, so I had to thread that with a tap. Similarly, one of the holes for the rear disc brake mount wasn't threaded, so I had to thread that. Given the small spaces there, that was a PITA, but not insurmountable.

    Threading the rear brake cable through the frame was trivial. Bleeding the brake was equally trivial and took me < 30 minutes. Given that it was the 1st time I'd ever bled a hydraulic brake, I think that the next time would be faster.

    I'm not sure that I'm the right person to comment on ride harshness given that my only reference point is riding a cyclocross bike on MTB trails (insanely jarring, btw). While the FM-136 is much, much smoother than the CX bike, bumps aren't eliminated - you still feel them. I'm still tuning my suspension and tire pressure, so that's probably still a huge factor. That said, the bike is super controllable and predictable. The geometry is perfect for me and for my intent (XC racing). It rails around corners like there's no tomorrow - I can go around tight twisty singletrack much, much faster than on my CX bike, and that's not because of the suspension.

    Anyways, I'm incredibly impressed with the build quality of the frame and the responsiveness of the thing. Right now I can't find anything about it that I don't like other than the fact that a single-bolt seat post is probably not the best choice for a MTB - it doesn't stay horizontal.

    With that said, here's the pic:

    [Umm, apparently you can't post the link when you have < 10 posts. Super]

    OK, maybe a gallery pic will work?

    Nope, apparently not. Gngngngn.
    Last edited by morphtcat; 12-17-2012 at 05:24 AM.

  49. #49
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    Oh geez, apparently I can't even reply to PM that someone sent me asking if I wanted them to post the URL pic for me. I guess I'll just have to make some more posts. Wow.

  50. #50
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    OK, I finally have 10 posts. Here's the bike:



    Edit: hopefully the pic is now smaller.
    Last edited by morphtcat; 12-18-2012 at 11:06 AM.

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