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  1. #1
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    China Carbon AM Duallies

    OK, given the other China carbon thread is already confusing enough with both a mix of hardtails and dual suspension xc bikes, I kind of thought it might be an idea to start a separate thread for the new AM bikes that are starting to appear, thanks natron5000 for that early find.

    As usual there seem to be lots of sellers already trying to promote a product they don't have their hands on and seem to have even less information about. Hong -Fu's FB page don't really seem to answer any important questions so I tried my luck with their proper site and was surprised how quickly I got the following information. Sorry, I have been sitting on this for a couple of days not wanting to make public emails but hey, there really is interest picking up on that other thread and I figure it will be available publicly soon anyway.

    What I have so far
    FM-336
    Frame is designed for a 150mm fork (A-C on geo chart below)
    Shock is a 200 x 50.8 but I can't get a firm "it is a 150mm rear travel bike"
    Sizes range from 15.5" to 20.5" but "now only 15.5 and 17.5 in producing"
    Frame weight on a 17.5 is 2649 gm but no confirmation on whether or not this includes hanger and rear axle.
    Price, well lets just say it is more than the xc frames (sorry, that one I am keeping quiet) but I will say that I think by the time it is delivered and you fit a quality shock with hardware it will be north of $1400
    petepeterson has got that it will be a BB92, I didn't think to ask.

    China Carbon AM Duallies-fm336-2d.jpg

    Let the "its a copy of x" discussions begin

    Maybe the mods can move the previous comments about this frame made in this thread over here?

  2. #2
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    The geometry drawings States 150mm rear wheel travel

  3. #3
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    Is that the chinese script or did I miss something obvious? Thanks Pete

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    It's the text on the far left with the arrow.

  5. #5
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    Like someone else said looks similar to a pivot mach 5.7....I like it
    2014 27.5" SC Blur TRa - 2014 IP-106 Chiner 29er - 2005 Fuji Team SL 16.2lbs -

  6. #6
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    Hey guys - I live in China and am currently working with a local bike factory on a carbon hardtail frame and some carbon wheels . . . .

    Anyway if you guys want to put together a list of questions that have not been able to get answered and i can try to help get more information.

    I am going to pick up some parts Saturday afternoon so I will at least see if they have this frame available.

    jeff

  7. #7
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    A Pivot Chinese carbon knockoff... Interesting

    Wonder how they'll get around the dual-link patents in the US?

    440mm/17.3" chainstay... assuming it's a 650b?
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    If the patents where not filed in China they can not be enforced on the manufacture of products in China - probable just be limited to getting them to stop the sell in US market (but would be tough to enforce in small volume). Actually if the patents where not filed in China, then one of the local manufacturers can patent them in PRC and then block any other manufatucturer (even the orginal patent devloper!) from being able to manufacture and export from China. . . . Similar to what just happened to Tesla

  9. #9
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    China Carbon AM Duallies

    Where or how can someone buy this?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by trap121 View Post
    Where or how can someone buy this?
    Ditto.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokiebrett View Post
    A Pivot Chinese carbon knockoff... Interesting

    Wonder how they'll get around the dual-link patents in the US?

    440mm/17.3" chainstay... assuming it's a 650b?
    No problem. That's why you already see lots of dual link bikes in the US. DW is very specific about wheel path. A slightly different wheel path and it's okay. VPP is about counter rotating links. If they swing the same direction it's okay.
    Keep the Country country.

  12. #12
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    Trap- google hong fu bikes

    Does anyone know when they plan to make the larger sizes? Also does HF give anytype of warranty on their frames and wheelsets? I got a.price from xmi for the ip 156 the other dual sus 650b frame and was quoted 600$ flat. OP do you really think the 336 frame will be almost double the price? Seems a little steep, I definitely want to pick up a L/XL frame ASAP and slowly build it up.

  13. #13
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    The IP-156 is basically a Scott knock off... Linkage driven SP.

    This, being a dual link, I'm sure is more complex to manufacture. The IP-156 (and other variants... 036, etc) aren't know for the tightest bearing interfaces and bearing area QC. The dual link design is going to demand very strict/tight tolerances... This is intriguing
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  14. #14
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    They said this will be available in november. Ill be snapping one up as soon as they are available. I have a XMI IP-106 and its build quality was great so I feel good about this I think. Will wait for more info but pretty sure Im going down this road when its available.
    2014 27.5" SC Blur TRa - 2014 IP-106 Chiner 29er - 2005 Fuji Team SL 16.2lbs -

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCDiesel View Post
    OP do you really think the 336 frame will be almost double the price? Seems a little steep, I definitely want to pick up a L/XL frame ASAP and slowly build it up.
    No, it's not double but you still have to buy a rear shock which is why I said about $1400 depending on which shock you get. Let it put to you this way, if you put a fox on it it will probably be under $1400, if you put a ccdb on it then it will probably be more than $1400.

    Andyfloyd is right with delivery times, I was told 45 - 60 days after payment which would be around November, not sure on the larger two sizes though, maybe a Christmas present?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCDiesel View Post
    . OP do you really think the 336 frame will be almost double the price? Seems a little steep,
    I saw it quoted at $850 USD, sans shock.
    Last edited by scottay; 08-28-2014 at 05:44 PM.

  17. #17
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    Anyone good at that linkage program and wanna plot the wheel path?
    Keep the Country country.

  18. #18
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    LaMere 650b and 29er

    Looks like Lamere will be using these frames in their builds. They are also doing a 29er version as well. Had an email from them and they are in the process of building their first 650b.
    http://www.abload.de/img/allmountainznsse.jpg
    http://www.abload.de/img/dsc01783ofs16.jpg

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    Good find!

  20. #20
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    Fm-336

    Looks like hong fu put the fm336 on their website today. It looks pretty good. There isn't any information yet, but some more pictures are posted. 2015 full carbon All mountain Frame

  21. #21
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    I think it is really just going to come down to the quality of the pivots/bushings/bearings.

  22. #22
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    I just took a better look at that frame and saw that it has counter-rotating links which clearly violate a Santa Cruz patent. Don't expect Lamere or any other "brand" to sell it here. I don't even think ebay sales are legal but SC would have to go after them.
    Keep the Country country.

  23. #23
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    Wow - feeling a pang of regret about my LTK088 purchase, will be following this thread closely.

    Beware of rear wheel travel figures, i was assured from multiple sellers that the LTK088 was 118mm, only to find its more like 100mm. I'd recommend some wizardry with linkage before rushing in with an order. If it does come up lower then it might always be possible to use a 57mm stroke shock as i did with my LTK088. Offset bushes might be an option for people wanting it slacker too ....

  24. #24
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  25. #25
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    Anyone find the shock stroke on the ICAN frame...7.875 x ???

    Edit: nevermind, found it.
    Last edited by Pau11y; 09-03-2014 at 01:46 PM.
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  26. #26
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    For those of you who have travelled down the road of these carbon frames. How do you think the quality would compare to say, the new Intense T275 I looked at recently?

    Are we talking a major drop-off, or similar?

  27. #27
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    Have any of you guys put down a deposit for the first run of these frames? ... very eager to shower whoever buys the first one with questions!

  28. #28
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    wondering if anyone has ordered one of these new AM frames???
    2014 27.5" SC Blur TRa - 2014 IP-106 Chiner 29er - 2005 Fuji Team SL 16.2lbs -

  29. #29
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    Buyer beware. You are getting what you pay for (in some cases less) My experience with these Chinese knockoffs have been less than impressive. They come poorly finished meaning some of the tolerance for the press fit bearing were off by less than a fraction of a millimeter, but made installation of parts a nightmare. The carbon in some areas were even paper thin. Granted they might have improved since 3 years ago when I first bought mine I still wouldn't pay for anything that doesn't have a reputable company standing behind their product. These Cheapo carbon bike companies that sell these frames come and go faster than you can learn to spell their names.

    Disclaimer: I do not work in the bike industry nore do I have any affiliation with any bike shop or anyone who does business in the bike industry.

  30. #30
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    I have this guy who comes into my body shop he does carbon repairs and such.. he said you can barely tell a difference between big box frames and Chinese frames. Just throw on a different sticker n bam!

  31. #31
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    My worry, as always, is top-tube length for a given standover and bearing quality.

    This one looks the top-tube lengths are a bit longer than previous full suspension models, and bearings can be replaced.
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  32. #32
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    Now that is interesting. It's a Mach 6, with a longer top tube and a counter rotating (VPP style) upper link
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonaid View Post
    Buyer beware. You are getting what you pay for (in some cases less) My experience with these Chinese knockoffs have been less than impressive. They come poorly finished meaning some of the tolerance for the press fit bearing were off by less than a fraction of a millimeter, but made installation of parts a nightmare. The carbon in some areas were even paper thin. Granted they might have improved since 3 years ago when I first bought mine I still wouldn't pay for anything that doesn't have a reputable company standing behind their product. These Cheapo carbon bike companies that sell these frames come and go faster than you can learn to spell their names.

    Disclaimer: I do not work in the bike industry nore do I have any affiliation with any bike shop or anyone who does business in the bike industry.

    I already have one carbon 29er from China and it looks as good and performs as well as anything Ive seen....
    2014 27.5" SC Blur TRa - 2014 IP-106 Chiner 29er - 2005 Fuji Team SL 16.2lbs -

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokiebrett View Post
    Now that is interesting. It's a Mach 6, with a longer top tube and a counter rotating (VPP style) upper link
    Yea I was wanting someone to buy one and tell me how great it is, so i can buy one. lol. It does look like Pivot and SC got in bed and made a kid together.
    2014 27.5" SC Blur TRa - 2014 IP-106 Chiner 29er - 2005 Fuji Team SL 16.2lbs -

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokiebrett View Post
    Now that is interesting. It's a Mach 6, with a longer top tube and a counter rotating (VPP style) upper link
    I think I'm picking up one of these 27.5 to replace my Blur LTc. and if it rides well enough, maybe the 29er if the travel on that frame is also 150mm
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  36. #36
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    I tried to 'inquire' about on on Hongfu-bikes.com, but it wants to know order quantity.

    The geo on the 19" looks really good. I never liked how 'short' the top tube of the Mach 6 is.

    Does anyone thing that seat tube/upper VPP link junction looks a little weak? That 'truss' from the top tube looks pencil thin.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  37. #37
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    Has anyone verified that they'll ship to the US?

    I don't see how this isn't clear patent infringement for VPP?
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    These puppies look interesting. Plus they aren't shipping from China, and have a bit better geometry for what I'd want.

    Reveal7 - Closeout — 29er | 27.5 | FSR Full-Suspension

    Too bad I just picked up my Chinese carbon frame (the 120 rear 27.5) before I saw this.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokiebrett View Post
    Has anyone verified that they'll ship to the US?

    I don't see how this isn't clear patent infringement for VPP?
    I bet they ship for a little while till SC puts a stop to it. Get'em while you can.
    Keep the Country country.

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    I'm a little less excited about this, now that the new Yeti SB6C is out...some of the new linkages look pretty cool.

  41. #41
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    Except the SB6C will cost thousands mores than one these direct frames.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Except the SB6C will cost thousands mores than one these direct frames.
    I just checked pricing. Looks like one of the cutting edge Yeti frames is $3500!!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by j-t-g View Post
    These puppies look interesting. Plus they aren't shipping from China, and have a bit better geometry for what I'd want.

    Reveal7 - Closeout — 29er | 27.5 | FSR Full-Suspension
    If you're looking for a basic, linkage driven single pivot... Those are a good enough deal
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  44. #44
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    I'm in the market for one of these next year I think...

    But, the worrying bit at the moment, is that there doesn't appear to be any built photo's around. They MUST have built one up, surely?

  45. #45
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    Re: China Carbon AM Duallies

    Quote Originally Posted by Conan257 View Post
    I'm in the market for one of these next year I think...

    But, the worrying bit at the moment, is that there doesn't appear to be any built photo's around. They MUST have built one up, surely?
    Melody Yu form iCan Bikes told me they're still testing and won't be ready till Dec or Jan.
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  46. #46
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    Here's the problem with a dual link generic Chinese bike: with a single pivot you can look at it and k ow what the wheel path is and how it's gonna feel. If there's a linkage driving the shock you're still rolling the dice that they got the shock rate curve right but at least half the equation is covered. With a dual link small changes can have huge impacts on wheel path and shock rate and it's really hard to tell by looking at a frame how it will work and feel. The whole point of dual links is to create wheel paths and shock rates that can't be done on a single pivot and result in a better ride. You're relying on this company to have actually done a good design rather than just slap some links on cuz that's what's selling well right now. Do you think they've actually put the kind of thought that DW, SC, or Giant do into their suspension layout?

    For me it wouldn't be worth the risk to buy a no name frame in this catagory. I love my Chinese rigid because there's not much asked of it. It's light, stiff, and has reasonable geometry (could be better handling but come on, no one's really shredding on a rigid bike). Even in the short travel XC FS category little variations in geometry and shock rate (wheel path looks good for that single pivot, linkage driven frame we've seen) can go mostly unnoticed because handling and feel aren't the top priorities for those bikes. In the AM/Enduro world it's all about how the bike feels. This is a toy that's meant to encourage great cornering, jumping, and confidence at speed on rough terrain. Plenty of otherwise good bikes in this category have been shunned due to sh!tty shock rates that make tuning a hassle. I'd at least like to see the frame properly analysed on Linkage before dropping the money on it.
    Keep the Country country.

  47. #47
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    This bike is available on Linkage Design's publicly available design database, if you're interested. My demo versions are both done for, otherwise I'd post the results.
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  48. #48
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    Re: China Carbon AM Duallies

    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    This bike is available on Linkage Design's publicly available design database, if you're interested. My demo versions are both done for, otherwise I'd post the results.
    It's for the 29er version of the design, but it might give ppl some idea...
    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...5o-HdzNvaFNMQw
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  49. #49
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    I'll be honest... I can't tell a good design from a bad by looking at a linkage curve
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    It's for the 29er version of the design, but it might give ppl some idea...
    Igor - album HM356 29 on Yandex
    Anyone else finds these charts odd? I.e. compare the "shock compression / wheel travel" curve and the "leverage ratio" curve.

    I am with Lelandjt on the "random design" of these frames. These bogus curves just make his case stronger.

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