Can we just call it 27.5?

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  • 05-21-2012
    krispy@go-ride.com
    Can we just call it 27.5?
    Hey all, after riding a sweet proto 27.5er the other day, and having owned a 5" travel 29er for a whole 3 weeks i'm really looking foreward to a mid sized wheelset on a 160ish travel do it all trailbike.

    I'm in a shop all day trying to explain what the heck 650b is and why. Can we just come up with a catchy name for it? :p

    I've been in this gig for 20 years now and i honestly don't know what 650b is. I did sell 26x1 3/8 and 27x1 1/4 Schwinns back in the day though :D

    I see Enve, Intense, Schwalbe and others are trying to use "27.5" Unless someone has a better name i'd say lets go with it.

    I'm going to start a bike brand called Sevener Because it just rolls off the tongue! Not. :band:
  • 05-21-2012
    IF52
    Do you know what 700c is?

    I'm for sticking with 650b, or just B.
  • 05-21-2012
    krispy@go-ride.com
    I would love to see the chart, or the history of 700c, 650a,b, and xyz as well.

    I see 700, 584 and 698, where is 650? 584 + a road tire? My point exactly.

  • 05-21-2012
    IF52
    I see 700 as a cyclocross tire, not a road tire where it is commonly used. Your point isn't much of one.

    5 years of so we've referred to it as 650b, and now we change because some people don't get it? Mountain bike was a brand name just like Kleenex and it stuck to an entire activity, mountains or not. Why not just let 650b, be.
  • 05-21-2012
    dinobiker
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by IF52 View Post
    Do you know what 700c is?

    I'm for sticking with 650b, or just B.

    I'm for B
  • 05-21-2012
    dhbomber
    I prefer 650b or six-fitty ;)
  • 05-21-2012
    dinobiker
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dhbomber View Post
    I prefer 650b or six-fitty ;)

    too many syllables
  • 05-21-2012
    Kristinka
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dhbomber View Post
    I prefer 650b or six-fitty ;)

    I like six-fifty too :)
  • 05-22-2012
    Morpheous
    ...not sure what the OP has been doing for 20 yrs and not know about standard wheel sizes....You are not going to find many if any shops that are in this realm yet, they are dependent on the industry. You can make your own 6" travel 650B bike today, I am on my third build in that category. Weyless 67, Jamis XAM2, now Santacruz Butcher.
  • 05-22-2012
    DJ Giggity
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by krispy@go-ride.com View Post
    I would love to see the chart, or the history of 700c, 650a,b, and xyz as well.

    I see 700, 584 and 698, where is 650? 584 + a road tire? My point exactly.


    650b is really old, something like 50-60 years. It was use in Europe for touring bikes so the the size comes from the rim diameter plus a larger touring tire. The rim size made a bit of a comeback in the late 80s/early 90s in the form of custom road bikes for small riders, women in particular. I don't know the exact dates but you get the general idea.
  • 05-22-2012
    Paul.C
    How about two seven point fiver? Or even six hundred fifty B 'er. Six five oh'er?
  • 05-22-2012
    fc
    I think the naming has had 5 years to bake. 27.5 has lost maybe cause it has a silly decimal point.

    The 650b ship has sailed and there's no turning back.

    fc
  • 05-22-2012
    SteveF
  • 05-22-2012
    lml427
    Twenty-seven half or 650b. I think twenty-seven half sounds more mtb and 650b more roady, but
    either is fine by me as long as they keep giving us more options.
  • 05-22-2012
    carverboy
    I prefer 650B over 27.5, It sounds a lot better to me. Funny thing is I can't quantify that opinion really.
    I think maybe it was introduced to me by that name way back when and anything else just sounds wrong.
  • 05-22-2012
    derby
    How about following motorcycle wheel sizing labels.... call the wheels by their rim sizes in inches, 22, 23, and 24.5.

    Whatever... 650b has a sophisticated sound to it... 27.5 would fit better for current sales sophistry ;)
  • 05-22-2012
    Jetman46
    Sixfifty B
  • 05-22-2012
    thad
    It would make much more sense to describe wheels with the rim size, because the tire diameter fluctucates so much due to tire size. 559mm, 584mm, and 622mm. Or even rounding to 56cm, 58cm, and 62cm. It may be too late for that.

    I think 27.5" is stupid. Doesn't sound good, and makes people think that the rim size exactly splits the difference between 26" + 29", when it is really much closer to 26".
  • 05-22-2012
    TheSchwagman
    Really? No offense to the OP or any of you, but who gives a rip? When we're all out on the trail, is it important at all what we call it?

    SHARP = SHutup And Ride Pal.
  • 05-22-2012
    mobaar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thad View Post
    It would make much more sense to describe wheels with the rim size, because the tire diameter fluctucates so much due to tire size. 559mm, 584mm, and 622mm. Or even rounding to 56cm, 58cm, and 62cm. It may be too late for that.

    I think 27.5" is stupid. Doesn't sound good, and makes people think that the rim size exactly splits the difference between 26" + 29", when it is really much closer to 26".

    MUCH closer?

    559
    584 (+25mm/4.5%)
    622 (+38mm/6.5 %)

    I guess we need to switch to 650A (590mm BSD) to use 27.5"?

    Much like everything else 650b, its going to be the manufacturers that set the terms here, and 27.5 seems to be gaining traction from what I see.

    27.5" is easier to explain to the customer that doesn't have any idea what 650b is (26", 27.5", 29" makes more sense thatn 26", 650B, 29").

    It also prevents confusion with 650C (571mm BSD). 700c works because 700a, b, and d are all practically obsolete. 700B (635 BSD) tires are out there, but everyone calls them 28".
  • 05-22-2012
    rydbyk
    six fitty yo
  • 05-22-2012
    thad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mobaar View Post
    MUCH closer?
    559
    584 (+25mm/4.5%)
    622 (+38mm/6.5 %)

    In comparison to 26":
    584/559= 1.0447 4.5% larger
    622/559= 1.1127 11.3% larger
  • 05-22-2012
    reformed roadie
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I think the naming has had 5 years to bake. 27.5 has lost maybe cause it has a silly decimal point.

    The 650b ship has sailed and there's no turning back.

    fc

    :thumbsup:

    The 27.5 names wreaks of MBA and their stupid aversion to the metric system...the whole world compares weights of bike parts in grams. Except MBA. WTS?

    (Yes, I get that 650b doesn't really mean anything.)
  • 05-22-2012
    mobaar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thad View Post
    In comparison to 26":
    584/559= 1.0447 4.5% larger
    622/559= 1.1127 11.3% larger

    And? My point was that 650b is pretty close to the middle of 26/29. Saying its not close ENOUGH to call it 27.5 is pretty silly. Should we go with 27.16"?

    27.5" makes perfect sense in the overall scheme of 26" and 29" wheels/tires we have currently.
  • 05-22-2012
    thad
    Eh, my point is that 26" and 29 wheels are not actually 26/29 in diameter. Totally depends on tire size. 26 X 1.9 < 2.2 < 2.5 < 3.0
    So why not label the rim size, and the tire size, and then everything is accurate.

    If you must use some arbitrary inch size that is not accurate, 26", 27", 29" is closer.
  • 05-22-2012
    thad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mobaar View Post
    And? My point was that 650b is pretty close to the middle of 26/29. Saying its not close ENOUGH to call it 27.5 is pretty silly. Should we go with 27.16"?

    27.5" makes perfect sense in the overall scheme of 26" and 29" wheels/tires we have currently.

    26 x 1.1127 = 28.93 rounds to 29"
    26 x 1.0447 = 27.16 rounds to 27"

    lose the point5.
  • 05-22-2012
    TheSchwagman
    For the sake of argument, I suggest we go with regular, medium, and wagon wheels.

    Or for the coffee addicts like myself, Tall, Grande & Venti.

    (OK, now I'm just being a troll)
  • 05-22-2012
    mobaar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thad View Post
    Eh, my point is that 26" and 29 wheels are not actually 26/29 in diameter. Totally depends on tire size. 26 X 1.9 < 2.2 < 2.5 < 3.0
    So why not label the rim size, and the tire size, and then everything is accurate.

    If you must use some arbitrary inch size that is not accurate, 26", 27", 29" is closer.

    So your suggestion is to call 650b 27"? That would certainly clear everything right up.
  • 05-22-2012
    thad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mobaar View Post
    So your suggestion is to call 650b 27"? That would certainly clear everything right up.

    My suggestion would be to call it by the actual rim size, rounded to cm.
    56cm =26", 58cm = 650b , 62cm = 29"

    26 and 29 are totally arbitrary numbers. I just measured my bikes
    26X 2.35 larsen TT = 26.5"
    26X 2.5 minion dhf = 27"
    29X 2.2 ikon = 29.5"
    29X 2.4 ardent = 29.75"
  • 05-22-2012
    mobaar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thad View Post
    My suggestion would be to call it by the actual rim size, rounded to cm.
    56cm =26", 58cm = 650b , 62cm = 29"

    26 and 29 are totally arbitrary numbers. I just measured my bikes
    26X 2.35 larsen TT = 26.5"
    26X 2.5 minion dhf = 27"
    29X 2.2 ikon = 29.5"
    29X 2.4 ardent = 29.75"

    So your suggestion is to come up with a completely new system altogether? Even better....

    There are good arguments on both sides of 650b/27.5"

    There is no good argument for 27" or 58cm.

    26" and 29" are simply rough approximations. But they're rough approximations that everyone already understands. If you want to overthrow the system, don't come up with an equally dumb system (58cm??? seriously?).

    If you're claiming to want accuracy, just stick to actual BSD measurements. They're what really matter anyway.
  • 05-22-2012
    fc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Shocker View Post
    For the sake of argument, I suggest we go with regular, medium, and wagon wheels.

    Or for the coffee addicts like myself, Tall, Grande & Venti.

    (OK, now I'm just being a troll)

    :cornut: Post of the day bro!
  • 05-22-2012
    thad
    What? That is the BSD, rounded to CM. It accurately describes the size, is a measurement that is already used (though not marketed). This would also continue to move the bike industry toward complete use of the metric system.

    BSD 559mm = 56cm or 26"
    BSD 584mm = 58cm or 26 x 1.0447 = 27.16 rounds to 27"
    BSD 622mm = 62cm or 26 x 1.1127 = 28.93 rounds to 29"

    If you want a "rough" estimate of wheel size in inches, 27" is a closer description than 27.5" and doesn't sound stupid.
  • 05-22-2012
    Trail Wizard
    I'm wondering what year in the distant (or not so distant) future the 650a (590 BSD) movement will happen.

    Kirk Pacenti mentioned he considered going the 650a route, but ultimately went with 650b for various reasons.
    I'm thinking he went with 650b because 650a sounds too Canadian.

    How about we use a secret lingo code name for 650b, named after the county that uses area code 650, which is San Mateo County, which also happens to be where Tom Ritchey resides, which also happens to be where Ritchey built 650b mountain bikes in the late 70s or early 80s, before the Russian army bought up the Hakka tire supply. And now, Ritchey is working on his own 650b tires and wheels, so things are coming full-circle..... just like a wheel.

    So, how 'bout we start calling them San Mateos?

    Or how about b'ers (pronounced beers)?

    Also, 2013 will be a rather banner year for 650b, and if you squish the 1 and the 3 close together, it looks like a B? So, there's been twenty-sixers, twenty-niners, and now twenty-B'ers (20B / 2013). Twenty beers? That's a lot of beers, eh? That reminds me of the time that I found a mouse in a bottle of beer, eh?
    So, maybe they could also be referred to as 20B. Or 65013.

    Oh, and here's the Canadian skit from Family Guy, eh?
    Family Guy - AA eh High Quality HD - YouTube

    Bonus Strange Brew video:
    Strange Brew - mouse in a bottle - YouTube
  • 05-22-2012
    DJ Giggity
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Shocker View Post
    Or for the coffee addicts like myself, Tall, Grande & Venti.

    I blame you when I see this in MBA next month.
  • 05-22-2012
    StiHacka
    This is just like staring a high school garage metal band - the toughest part is to figure out how to call the product. :D I like 650b or just plain "B", or Grande. ;)

    PS: Venti-niners sounds about right. /me running for cover
  • 05-22-2012
    StiHacka
    One more side note - I find it easier to run searches for 650b than for 27.5, 27 1/2", 27 1/2in, etc.
  • 05-22-2012
    jack lantern
    27 makes me think of 27 x 1-1/4 tires, and what do we think of when we think of those: mounting cheap a** wire bead gumwalls on to cheap a** 40 year old steel rims that feel like they're gonna buckle on you while you're trying to seat the bead. The guys at work refer to my bike as "the B bike", but I prefer 650b. Why try to fit it into other wheel sizes format? Stand apart.
  • 05-22-2012
    jack lantern
    BTW, as a side note I spoke to someone at WTB today and they said they will be offering the Frequency rim in 650b as well as at least two other tires in the not too distant future.

    :thumbsup:
  • 05-22-2012
    Trail Wizard
    I spoke with a Specialized sales rep last week and he said they might have a tire next year, and the soonest they'll have a bike is 2014 or 2015. He said they wished they hadn't continued with many of their current 26ers, and they wished they had pursued 650b for those equivalent models instead.
  • 05-22-2012
    mobaar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thad View Post
    What? That is the BSD, rounded to CM. It accurately describes the size, is a measurement that is already used (though not marketed). This would also continue to move the bike industry toward complete use of the metric system.

    BSD 559mm = 56cm or 26"
    BSD 584mm = 58cm or 26 x 1.0447 = 27.16 rounds to 27"
    BSD 622mm = 62cm or 26 x 1.1127 = 28.93 rounds to 29"

    If you want a "rough" estimate of wheel size in inches, 27" is a closer description than 27.5" and doesn't sound stupid.

    Right... rounded BSD... which would be totally new nomenclature and nobody would have any idea what you're talking about. If you're using BSD, why dumb it down? Just use the actual BSD.

    And you keep going back to 27" which is the worst idea in this entire thread. You do realize there is a widely accepted 27" tire/wheel size and it uses a larger BSD than 29ers, right?
  • 05-22-2012
    r1Gel
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Trail Wizard View Post
    I'm wondering what year in the distant (or not so distant) future the 650a (590 BSD) movement will happen.

    Kirk Pacenti mentioned he considered going the 650a route, but ultimately went with 650b for various reasons.
    I'm thinking he went with 650b because 650a sounds too Canadian.

    How about we use a secret lingo code name for 650b, named after the county that uses area code 650, which is San Mateo County, which also happens to be where Tom Ritchey resides, which also happens to be where Ritchey built 650b mountain bikes in the late 70s or early 80s, before the Russian army bought up the Hakka tire supply. And now, Ritchey is working on his own 650b tires and wheels, so things are coming full-circle..... just like a wheel.

    So, how 'bout we start calling them San Mateos?

    Or how about b'ers (pronounced beers)?

    Also, 2013 will be a rather banner year for 650b, and if you squish the 1 and the 3 close together, it looks like a B? So, there's been twenty-sixers, twenty-niners, and now twenty-B'ers (20B / 2013). Twenty beers? That's a lot of beers, eh? That reminds me of the time that I found a mouse in a bottle of beer, eh?
    So, maybe they could also be referred to as 20B. Or 65013.

    Oh, and here's the Canadian skit from Family Guy, eh?
    Family Guy - AA eh High Quality HD - YouTube

    Bonus Strange Brew video:
    Strange Brew - mouse in a bottle - YouTube

    Haha! Like :thumbsup:
  • 05-22-2012
    thad
    Who pissed in your wheaties? It's a wheel size....

    Of course I am familiar with 27" 10 speed wheels. You do realize there a 26X 1 3/8 wheel, that are completely different than 26X 1 1/4", that are completely different than 26"X1.5" mtb wheels? You do realize there are 650c rims that are different than 650b? Rims and tires have been a confusing mess in cycling, since forever. Which is why, I think they should move away from arbitrary inch measurements like 26" and 29", and move to ERD.

    I don't think most people are so concerned about their rim size they need to memorize it with accuracy down to the millimeter. I like nice even numbers.
  • 05-22-2012
    thrasher_s
    I say 26er, tweener, and 29er.
  • 05-22-2012
    Trail Addict
    I agree with just calling it 27.5.

    When someone says 650b it sounds like they're talking about a ghey motorcycle.
  • 05-22-2012
    Morpheous
    Just call it the 'right stuff', cause the other two sizes will fade into the sunset. This wheelsize is just what the industry needs and will spawn a huge bulge in some of the most profitable areas in cycling (tries & wheels). New frame designs will abound, plus the fact that you can retro fit them to 26er frames is a boon.:thumbsup: It will be fun next season. Wait till the DHers get 650b going.
  • 05-22-2012
    doismellbacon
    It should remain 650b because that's what its inventors called it.... show some respect for history you dingleberries.

    As far as short hand nicknames go, I'm with Trail Wizard..... B'ers.... I like B'ers
  • 05-23-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thad View Post
    It would make much more sense to describe wheels with the rim size, because the tire diameter fluctucates so much due to tire size. 559mm, 584mm, and 622mm. Or even rounding to 56cm, 58cm, and 62cm. It may be too late for that.

    I think 27.5" is stupid. Doesn't sound good, and makes people think that the rim size exactly splits the difference between 26" + 29", when it is really much closer to 26".

    Totally don't get that or agree. For over 20 years, the industry has dubbed the "regular" wheel size as 26" which is the outside diameter of the wheel with tire mounted and inflated measured in inches. Same with 29" for over 10 years. Nobody gave or gives a damn that certain tires make the wheels slightly taller or slighly shorter than the demonination.

    Now we have the in bewtween size, and people arguing that by using IDO/bsd metric measurements ( which NOBODY f'ing gets and which compares imperial apples to metric ISO oranges) the new wheel is closer to 26" than 29".

    I say B.S. I have 4 "650b" wheels , different tire brands, different widths mounted on different rims. They all measure close to exactly 27.5 inches using a level and a yardstick.

    This is a Neomoto 2.1 mounted on a WTB Laser Disc Trail rim.





    Why confuse the public? It is MUCH simpler and NOT inaccurate to to market the wheel as exactly halfway between 26" and 29", comparing apples to apples: OD measured in inches with tire mounted and inflated.

    Getting all metric and ISO is a bunch of meaningless insider sounding technical jargon AFAIC, and all it will do is confuse and mislead consumers and inhibit the acceptance of the middle wheel size.

    Just say 27.5" - halfway between 26" and 29" - and be DONE with it.
  • 05-23-2012
    KCOgar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Trail Wizard View Post
    I spoke with a Specialized sales rep last week and he said they might have a tire next year, and the soonest they'll have a bike is 2014 or 2015. He said they wished they hadn't continued with many of their current 26ers, and they wished they had pursued 650b for those equivalent models instead.

    If this is true....well then....crap. I was kinda hoping big S was throwing up a smoke screen and was going to dazzle us in 2013. Even though I secretly suspected that they would do what they did w/29ers -- wait & see what the market does before jumping in w/both feet.

    Here in the midwest it's easy to get a bike from your LBS as long as you want Specialized or Giant* ("we play both kinds of music -- country AND western"). Now my hopes of an HL 650b-specific trail bike lie solely on Norco. The good news is that the closest Norco dealer is only 700+ miles away.....

    *I know I can get other bikes here in the midwest...it was an attempt at humor. How does that saying go? If you have to explain it....
  • 05-23-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mobaar View Post
    And? My point was that 650b is pretty close to the middle of 26/29. Saying its not close ENOUGH to call it 27.5 is pretty silly. Should we go with 27.16"?

    27.5" makes perfect sense in the overall scheme of 26" and 29" wheels/tires we have currently.

    +1:thumbsup:
  • 05-23-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thad View Post
    26 x 1.1127 = 28.93 rounds to 29"
    26 x 1.0447 = 27.16 rounds to 27"

    lose the point5.

    Nope.