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  1. #101
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    It's curious that people insist on the ".5" in the name as though 27" isn't good enough. 26" is good enough even though the real size there is 26.5". The fact remains that 650b is 25mm larger than 26. That's one inch. Hypocrisy goes all the way to the name.

  2. #102
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    ]QUOTE=craigsj;9348213]It's curious that people insist on the ".5" in the name as though 27" isn't good enough. 26" is good enough even though the real size there is 26.5". The fact remains that 650b is 25mm larger than 26. That's one inch. Hypocrisy goes all the way to the name.[/QUOTE]

    As usual, I have no f'ing clue what you are talking about.

    First, dictionary def of hypocrisy is:
    1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

    How does that even approach applying the idea expressed in this thread of using one consistent system of measurement forbmtn bike wheels. : OD with tire mounted &inflated, Expressed in inches, in use since day 1 of this sport.

    I'm thinking that this is a misuse of an English word excelled only by Alanis Morissette's mangling of "ironic "in 1995

    Second, I have two 26" wheels left in the quiver and they both measure almost exactly 26" I have four 27.5" wheels and they all measure 27.5" That is 1.5" of difference and despite that 29'er zealots tell us the difference is negligible according to their calculators it is very noticeable in the actual saddle in actual use on the trails.

    No 29'ers but someday there will be a rigid SS 29'er My inductive leap of faith is that the wheels will measure 29"OD .

    I know you are an engineer and I fear you are living up to stereotype, by making little to no sense with your prose. Worse than Jobst Brandt and that speaks volumes.

    Maybe try again; there must be an engineer-speak to English App availablevsomewhere.


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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    It's curious that people insist on the ".5" in the name as though 27" isn't good enough. 26" is good enough even though the real size there is 26.5". The fact remains that 650b is 25mm larger than 26. That's one inch. Hypocrisy goes all the way to the name.
    And 29r is 33 mm larger than 650b. That is 1.3 inches. So we should call them 28.3"? And round down to 28" like we did with 26"?

    650b is in roughly in between. Naming makes sense. You reasoning does not.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    As usual, I have no f'ing clue what you are talking about.
    No surprise. I wonder how long you looked for a sufficiently obscure definition.

    Hypocrisy is applying difference standards for yourself than you would apply to others. In this case, truncating the fraction of an inch is OK for the smaller wheel size but not for 650B because of big wheel envy.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Second, I have two 26" wheels left in the quiver and they both measure almost exactly 26" I have four 27.5" wheels and they all measure 27.5" That is 1.5" of difference and despite that 29'er zealots tell us the difference is negligible according to their calculators it is very noticeable in the actual saddle in actual use on the trails.
    You do Kirk Pacenti proud. The difference in size between 650B and 26er is 25mm always. That is one inch. Anything else is just differences in tires, despite how hard you try to push this off on "29'er zealots". It's always someone else at fault with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I know you are an engineer and I fear you are living up to stereotype, by making little to no sense with your prose. Worse than Jobst Brandt and that speaks volumes.
    Denigrating knowledge with personal attacks. Another standard move for you.

    It doesn't take an engineer to subtract 559 from 584 and conclude that the wheel size is 1" different. It just takes someone who's self-worth isn't tied to the answer.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    And 29r is 33 mm larger than 650b. That is 1.3 inches. So we should call them 28.3"? And round down to 28" like we did with 26"?

    650b is in roughly in between. Naming makes sense. You reasoning does not.
    No, it is 38mm larger and that's 1.5 inches. Furthermore, it would not be added to the post-rounded 650B number and then rounded again. You've made two mistakes here in order to reach your invalid conclusion. 29ers are actually 29" nominally.

    27" is roughly between 26" and 29" so that naming would make just as much sense. I fail to follow your logic. There is no justification for calling 26.5" a "26er" and then insist 27.5" be called "27.5". If it's good for one, it's good for the other. Stop pretending 650B is 1.5" larger than 26". It's not.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    . Stop pretending 650B is 1.5" larger than 26". It's not.
    I agree with the Scott Marketing Manager that applying ISO standards typically used with road bike wheels to mtn bike wheels is inherently confusing. Since day 1,mtn bike wheels have been measured OD with tire installed in inches Do now there are 3 mtn wheel sizes 26", 27.5" and 29"
    Furthermore, it would not be added to the post-rounded 650B number and then rounded again. You've made two mistakes here in order to reach your invalid conclusion. 29ers are actually


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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    No, it is 38mm larger and that's 1.5 inches. Furthermore, it would not be added to the post-rounded 650B number and then rounded again. You've made two mistakes here in order to reach your invalid conclusion. 29ers are actually 29" nominally.

    27" is roughly between 26" and 29" so that naming would make just as much sense. I fail to follow your logic. There is no justification for calling 26.5" a "26er" and then insist 27.5" be called "27.5". If it's good for one, it's good for the other.

    What a load of baloney. Are you obsessive compulsive?

    You need a justification for a marketing term? Take a number and stand in line.

    27.5 is in between the established 26 and 29. Deal with it.

    650b tires outer diameter is 27.5". Almost exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Stop pretending 650B is 1.5" larger than 26". It's not.
    Boo-hoo. Cry me a river.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I agree with the Scott Marketing Manager that applying ISO standards typically used with road bikevwheelsb to mtn bike wheels is inherently confusing. Since day 1,mtn bike wheels have been measured OD with tire installed in inches So now there are 3 mtn wheel sizes 26", 27.5" and 29". 650b is a red herring. Few have the faintest clue what it means. I admit it just leaves me scratching my head. I do know that the measurement 27.5" is consistent with the other two and is halfway in between.
    Comparing apples to apples. If you want to dazzle us with your vast knowledge and tie us in knots with apples to oranges measurements Go ahead. What are you accomplishing or trying to prove? If it is the ultimate superiority of the 29" wheel go to another forum or PM DC

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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    What a load of baloney. Are you obsessive compulsive?

    You need a justification for a marketing term? Take a number and stand in line.

    27.5 is in between the established 26 and 29. Deal with it.

    650b tires outer diameter is 27.5". Almost exactly.



    Boo-hoo. Cry me a river.
    And 26er have an outer diameter of 26.5". Almost exactly. Why don't you pitch a fit over that?

    You don't have to be obsessive compulsive to get simple arithmetic right. You just need no agenda, apparently.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    And 26er have an outer diameter of 26.5". Almost exactly. Why don't you pitch a fit over that?

    You don't have to be obsessive compulsive to get simple arithmetic right. You just need no agenda, apparently.
    You know the village idiot of MTBR? Davidcopperfield.

    You sound just like him.

    Why don't I pitch a fit? Because that is what you do. I do not.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    You know the village idiot of MTBR? Davidcopperfield.

    You sound just like him.

    Why don't I pitch a fit? Because that is what you do. I do not.
    Classic projection. You can't even subtract 584 from 622 properly yet you say I sound just like DC. It's amazing how the stupid call other people stupid.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    And 26er have an outer diameter of 26.5". Almost exactly. Why don't you pitch a fit over that?

    You don't have to be obsessive compulsive to get simple arithmetic right. You just need no agenda, apparently.
    FWIW, my 26er's wheels measure 26" exactly. Not a hair over nor under. Right at 26. They're the WTB 2.1" Prowler MX.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Wizard View Post
    FWIW, my 26er's wheels measure 26" exactly. Not a hair over nor under. Right at 26. They're the WTB 2.1" Prowler MX.
    Do not let facts get in the way of righteous rage.

    26" was named when most tires had been just that size.

    Most 650b tires will be 27.5" on the nose.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Wizard View Post
    FWIW, my 26er's wheels measure 26" exactly. Not a hair over nor under. Right at 26. They're the WTB 2.1" Prowler MX.
    That tire, if it existed in 650b, would measure 27" exactly. It cannot be otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Do not let facts get in the way of righteous rage.

    26" was named when most tires had been just that size.

    Most 650b tires will be 27.5" on the nose.
    Indeed, do not let facts get in the way of righteous rage. Where do you get you facts on why 26ers where named what they were?

    Why change 650b's name and not 26"? How is one justified and not the other?

    No matter how you put it, it's a double standard, and it's specifically one that's motivated by dishonesty. 650b is 1 inch bigger than 26er and will never be anything but that, despite all the BS implied by pet names. The 650b name works just fine, it just doesn't allow people to pretend the wheel is half way between 26 and 29, which it is not.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    That tire, if it existed in 650b, would measure 27" exactly. It cannot be otherwise.


    Indeed, do not let facts get in the way of righteous rage. Where do you get you facts on why 26ers where named what they were?

    Why change 650b's name and not 26"? How is one justified and not the other?

    No matter how you put it, it's a double standard, and it's specifically one that's motivated by dishonesty. 650b is 1 inch bigger than 26er and will never be anything but that, despite all the BS implied by pet names. The 650b name works just fine, it just doesn't allow people to pretend the wheel is half way between 26 and 29, which it is not.
    Why don't you put down the crack pipe and come back to earth?

    You are a much more annoying troll than DC. DC has a "village idiot" quality
    that makes his bleating easier to take. We kind of feel sorry for him, and accept his quixotic anti 27.5" crusade as vaguely humorous.

    You OTOH have an arrogant self important tone that makes your posts much more obnoxious. You are by far the worse troll. Maybe someday the red chicklets will catch up.

    Bottom line is that both of you need much more real world experience actually riding and building bikes, and way less calculator time.


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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    It's curious that people insist on the ".5" in the name as though 27" isn't good enough. 26" is good enough even though the real size there is 26.5". The fact remains that 650b is 25mm larger than 26. That's one inch. Hypocrisy goes all the way to the name.
    Because 27" is a road size that's been around for decades, and it uses a 630BCD. So you REALLY want to call 584BCD mountain tires 27"??

    Customer: Hey.. I need some 27" tires.
    Shop: Road bike 27" or mountain bike 27"?
    Customer: Well I just ride on the road, so road bike I guess.
    Shop: Great. Here are you 27x1-1/4 tires!
    Customer: Awesome
    <1 hour later>
    Customer: That stupid shop! These tires don't fit my bike!

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobaar View Post
    Because 27" is a road size that's been around for decades, and it uses a 630BCD. So you REALLY want to call 584BCD mountain tires 27"??

    Customer: Hey.. I need some 27" tires.
    Shop: Road bike 27" or mountain bike 27"?
    Customer: Well I just ride on the road, so road bike I guess.
    Shop: Great. Here are you 27x1-1/4 tires!
    Customer: Awesome
    <1 hour later>
    Customer: That stupid shop! These tires don't fit my bike!
    Exactly! And why 650b make so much more sense
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  18. #118
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    same number of syllables as 29er as well
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Why don't you put down the crack pipe and come back to earth?

    You are a much more annoying troll than DC. DC has a "village idiot" quality
    that makes his bleating easier to take. We kind of feel sorry for him, and accept his quixotic anti 27.5" crusade as vaguely humorous.

    You OTOH have an arrogant self important tone that makes your posts much more obnoxious. You are by far the worse troll. Maybe someday the red chicklets will catch up.

    Bottom line is that both of you need much more real world experience actually riding and building bikes, and way less calculator time.
    It comes as no surprise that you don't know what a troll is either. It appears your criticism of me is that I post things that you don't like and I'm right about them. Well done.

    I will point out that I have not criticized 650b in any way in this thread, just the motivations of people who advocate for misleading names. The more you post on this, the stronger my point becomes. You would think that honesty would be virtue yet it makes you so angry, angry enough to go off immediately into personal attacks. No great surprise.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobaar View Post
    Because 27" is a road size that's been around for decades, and it uses a 630BCD. So you REALLY want to call 584BCD mountain tires 27"??

    Customer: Hey.. I need some 27" tires.
    Shop: Road bike 27" or mountain bike 27"?
    Customer: Well I just ride on the road, so road bike I guess.
    Shop: Great. Here are you 27x1-1/4 tires!
    Customer: Awesome
    <1 hour later>
    Customer: That stupid shop! These tires don't fit my bike!
    That hasn't stopped other formats, most notably 650b itself which shares its name with others using variation letters. You realize that the "650" part is the metric equivalent of 26" or 27" or 29", right? There's also 406 and 451 which are both known as 20" formats. The industry is filled with such examples, the most notable of all being 700c which, besides being known as 29", shares its 700 designation with 4 other 700 formats, ironically none if which is 584 which is known as a 650 format despite being closer to 700mm in MTB form than any 700 format! No, the only logical answer is to use the rim sizes themselves. It is unambiguous. I would be most happy with MTB using 3 standards---559, 584, and 622---and that would have the pleasant side effect of instantly knowing the real differences. 650b advocates wouldn't like that, though, as it would rain on their parade. The emperor would have no clothes then.

    So no, I don't really want to call 650b 27", I want to call it 650b or 584. 27" or 27er is a horrible name, but so is 27.5 because it has too many syllables. The only motivation for the 27.5 name is to suggest to the naive that it is half way between 26 and 29 when it is not. It is marketing lie, nothing more. Why marketers think that we need imperial names for wheel sizes is beyond me.

  21. #121
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    You know what's great about the internet? Two idiots can argue back and forth and both prove themselves to be complete losers for everyone to see. Who cares what it's called dbags.
    Last edited by sumgai; 05-26-2012 at 08:14 AM.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    It comes as no surprise that you don't know what a troll is either. It appears your criticism of me is that I post things that you don't like and I'm right about them. Well done.

    I will point out that I have not criticized 650b in any way in this thread, just the motivations of people who advocate for misleading names. The more you post on this, the stronger my point becomes. You would think that honesty would be virtue yet it makes you so angry, angry enough to go off immediately into personal attacks. No great surprise.
    Look, Craig. Except for DC, nobody f'ing agrees with anything you say about wheel size. Certainly not any company in the mtn bike industry which now sells or next year will sell 27.5" bikes. Not Intense, not Scott - which both advocate 27.5" over 650b (why? To mislead the public ? To personally piss off Craigsj makes more sense)

    And of course you are a troll, because you come out of the comfort zone of your 29'er forum and post provocative crap in the 650b forum for the sole reason of getting into arguments with people. Of course there also your insufferable "I'm smarter than everybody"meme. Which is why I will never pass up an opportunity to trash you personally. Until you get over yourself. Might be a long f'ing wait. Get married, your wife will or should beat the "it's all about me" out of you. Or you will never get laid. Maybe that's your problem now?
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by sumgai View Post
    You know what's great about the internet? Two idiots can argue back and forth and both prove themselves to be complete losers for everyone to see. Who cares what it's called dbags.
    The other good thing is that even worse losers lurking will read every post then try to show how superior they are by being "above it all". Who cares what you think, dbag?
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    So no, I don't really want to call 650b 27", I want to call it 650b or 584. 27" or 27er is a horrible name, but so is 27.5 because it has too many syllables. The only motivation for the 27.5 name is to suggest to the naive that it is half way between 26 and 29 when it is not. It is marketing lie, nothing more. Why marketers think that we need imperial names for wheel sizes is beyond me.
    You are a DC sockpuppet. Congratulations. Yes, the whole industry is against you. They intent to call a medium sized wheel in between two existing ones named "26' and "29", with 27.5" outside diameter a "27.5" size. Oh, the humanity.

    But do not worry. You know the truth. You will wait for your 32" with dropped bars.

    I will not repeat what dwt said.
    Last edited by Axe; 05-26-2012 at 10:44 AM.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    And of course you are a troll, because you come out of the comfort zone of your 29'er forum and post provocative crap in the 650b forum for the sole reason of getting into arguments with people. Of course there also your insufferable "I'm smarter than everybody"meme. Which is why I will never pass up an opportunity to trash you personally. Until you get over yourself. Might be a long f'ing wait. Get married, your wife will or should beat the "it's all about me" out of you. Or you will never get laid. Maybe that's your problem now?
    Pulling out all the low-brow personal insults this time, eh? It's really sad the class of intellect found in the 650b world.

    I'm not smarter than everyone, but I'm clearly smarter than you.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    You are a DC sockpuppet. Congratulations. Yes, the whole industry is against you. They intent to call a medium sized wheel in between two existing ones named "26' and "29", with 27.5" outside diameter a "27.5" size. Oh, the humanity.

    But do not worry. You know the truth. You will wait for your 32" with dropped bars.

    I will not repeat what dwt said.
    You don't know what a sockpuppet is either. The best you, and dwt, can do is repeat things you've read for which you have no understanding. No surprise.

    Yeah, dropped bars. That's what I advocate.

    It's amazing the tears that are shed by 650b lovers. They can't even tolerate criticism of the name of the garbage they spew.

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    I'm gonna help you guys out. I do develop names for products as part of my job. These comments are free, so value them accordingly.

    I just looked at bikes at a Target store. They had a Schwinn brand bike advertised as having 28" wheels. What the heck is that?

    Any name is just a label. Anyone know what a 1/2 MIP size fitting is? Know why it is called that?

    I read the Sheldon Brown article on tire sizes. I recommend it. It's fricking chaos. Fit in with that, and you are destined to wearing silly hats. There is no good way to fit into that madness. I have a bike in the garage which has 27 x 1 1/4 tires on it, rated at 105 psi. Where does that fit in?

    Any abstract label will do. If you can't abide the idea of sticking with "650b", I suggest calling this rim size a DavyRay, or maybe Cavendish.
    Last edited by DavyRay; 05-26-2012 at 02:25 PM. Reason: psi was wrong

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Pulling out all the low-brow personal insults this time, eh? It's really sad the class of intellect found in the 650b world.
    I do not have any pretense of representing any "world. " with you it is entirely personal, I have a strong aversion to pretentious know-it-alls, and will never skirt the opportunity to insult one whenever presented.

    not smarter than everyone, but I'm clearly smarter than you.
    Only an arrogant db would have the chutzpah to say something like this in print. You're an Engineer, BFD. Im a lawyer, also BFD. I know how to use the Queens English; you know math. I'm smart and experienced enough to know that I should actually RIDE a certain bicycle before I go onto a forum and pontificate and lecture about its merits demerits, performance and specifications. You and your butt-boy DC seem to have missed this lesson
    Learn it or STFU. Your lectures are lacking in substance and are precisely trolls under this definition:
    A troll is someone who posts inflammatory,extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

    Hmmm. Self important know it all comes to 650b forum and posts, "so sorry dimwit losers, your wheel is .5" smaller than you think it is and is NOT halfway between 26" and 29" as you think it is. How do I know this? Well I'm an Engineer, and of course I ride 29'ers, so there is nothing about bikes I do not know more than everyone else, you stinking peons."
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  29. #129
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    This thread is really funny. A lot of people are beginning to act childish.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehigh View Post
    This thread is really funny. A lot of people are beginning to act childish.
    It's what happens when a thread gets trolled, and idiots like me feed the troll. That is admittedly childish. Sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I do not have any pretense of representing any "world. " with you it is entirely personal, I have a strong aversion to pretentious know-it-alls, and will never skirt the opportunity to insult one whenever presented.
    I think you mean you have no aversion to insulting people when you don't get your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Only an arrogant db would have the chutzpah to say something like this in print. You're an Engineer, BFD. Im a lawyer, also BFD.
    I find that difficult to believe. In fact, it's hard to believe you made it out of middle school considering your behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I'm smart and experienced enough to know that I should actually RIDE a certain bicycle before I go onto a forum and pontificate and lecture about its merits demerits, performance and specifications. You and your butt-boy DC seem to have missed this lesson.
    Is this your queen's english? You aren't smart enough to realize that you know nothing of my experiences at all. No way you convince me that you've earned an advanced degree, you don't demonstrate any critical thinking skills at all. You are an idiot who goes nuclear at the smallest perceived slight.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    A troll is someone who posts inflammatory,extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion
    A troll is someone who posts with intent to start arguments among groups of opposing people. Trolls don't engage in the argument themselves. The emotional response here is entirely your own, I posted completely factual observations that neither you nor Axe were capable of refuting (or even representing correctly).

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Hmmm. Self important know it all comes to 650b forum and posts, "so sorry dimwit losers, your wheel is .5" smaller than you think it is and is NOT halfway between 26" and 29" as you think it is. How do I know this? Well I'm an Engineer, and of course I ride 29'ers, so there is nothing about bikes I do not know more than everyone else, you stinking peons."
    I said neither than I am an engineer nor that a 650b wheel is 0.5" smaller than you think it is. This is precisely the problem, you are a fanboy who imagines facts as you want them to be. You are incapable of an intelligent conversation.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    It's what happens when a thread gets trolled, and idiots like me feed the troll. That is admittedly childish. Sorry.
    A troll being anyone that says something dwt doesn't like. This is, after all, a forum reserved for saying things only dwt approves of.

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    dude, you're a lot like a foil character in a novel.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    A troll being anyone that says something dwt doesn't like. This is, after all, a forum reserved for saying things only dwt approves of.
    Get over yourself.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Get over yourself.
    That's quite a whimper from someone who just a few posts earlier questioned my sex life.

  36. #136
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    Guys. Can we call a detente on this?
    All mountain bikes are all-mountain bikes.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedalmunky View Post
    Guys. Can we call a detente on this?
    I quit. Not worth risking neg rep. . No winners in flame wars only losers.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  38. #138
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    winners, losers, and rep points? oh my

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehigh View Post
    winners, losers, and rep points? oh my
    Agreed.

    I don't think of any of these things. It's probably why I have so many problems with those that do.

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    i vote we stick with the original 650B name

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    You don't know what a sockpuppet is either. The best you, and dwt, can do is repeat things you've read for which you have no understanding. No surprise.

    Yeah, dropped bars. That's what I advocate.

    It's amazing the tears that are shed by 650b lovers. They can't even tolerate criticism of the name of the garbage they spew.


    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I'm not smarter than everyone, but I'm clearly smarter than you.
    You have demonstrated to the whole world here that clearly you are not.

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    I have to jump to the end of this thread and take the time to point out (although the observation is obvious), this one called craig is a logical man and this one called Axe has an extremely low IQ. (no, I don't know either one outside of this thread alone) I was just enjoying the entertaining discussion, but when I see utter stupidity, and the same emotionally defended, I must speak.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcjensen1 View Post
    I have to jump to the end of this thread and take the time to point out (although the observation is obvious), this one called craig is a logical man and this one called Axe has an extremely low IQ. (no, I don't know either one outside of this thread alone) I was just enjoying the entertaining discussion, but when I see utter stupidity, and the same emotionally defended, I must speak.
    Now it appears that this thread had degenerated into nothing but ad hominen. I'm guilty, you're guilty, craigsj is guilty but Axe has not stooped to that level. So on this point he is smarter and more logical than any of us.

    And tell us more about "utter stupidly". Conclusions made without supporting evidence is about as lame, illogical and fallacious as you can get.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Now it appears that this thread had degenerated into nothing but ad hominen. I'm guilty, you're guilty, craigsj is guilty but Axe has not stooped to that level. So on this point he is smarter and more logical than any of us.
    Responding in kind to ad hominem attacks is perfectly moral. This is not my fault, it is yours, dwt. As for Axe, he most certainly has "stooped to that level", see post #107. If you don't want this to happen, don't start.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    And tell us more about "utter stupidly". Conclusions made without supporting evidence is about as lame, illogical and fallacious as you can get.
    You really need to control your temper.

  45. #145
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    I don't care what you call it, I just want one.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    You really need to control your temper.
    You really must get over yourself.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    I don't care what you call it, I just want one.
    Amen, brother! Amen!
    All mountain bikes are all-mountain bikes.

  48. #148
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    I rode mine all weekend and 657.5B is the cats a$$. Just sayin.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Responding in kind to ad hominem attacks is perfectly moral. This is not my fault, it is yours, dwt.
    Tramsparently weak , fallacious rationalization FAIL:

    5. The "Tit for Tat" Excuse

    This is the principle that bad or unethical behavior justifies, and somehow makes ethical, unethical behavior intended to counter it. The logical extension of this fallacy is the abandonment of all ethical standards. Through the ages, we have been perplexed at the fact that people who don't play by the rules have an apparent advantage over those who do, and "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" has been the rallying cry of those who see the abandonment of values as the only way to prosper.

    The very concept of ethics assumes that winning isn't the only thing, Vince Lombardi to the contrary, and that we must hold on to ethical standards to preserve the quality of civil existence.

    Although maxims and aphorisms cause a lot of confusion in ethical arguments, this one is still valid in its simple logic: "Two wrongs don't make a right."
    http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/rb_fallacies.html





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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Tramsparently weak , fallacious rationalization FAIL:



    Ethics Fallacies, Myths, Distortions and Rationalizations
    "Through the ages, we have been perplexed at the fact that people who don't play by the rules have an apparent advantage over those who do, and "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" has been the rallying cry of those who see the abandonment of values as the only way to prosper."

    This is a proven fact. Gaming theory 101. It is the opposite of a fallacy. Curious, though, that by presenting this you are tacitly acknowledging your own actions. You are criticizing me for behaving like you do. It will always be clear that you are the instigator here, as you always are.

    The "abandonment of all ethical standards" in this case is not mine, it's MTBR's moderation approach and your bad behavior. No one should ever be rewarded for bad behavior. Responding in kind is the only way to deal with people like you in the absence of proper moderation. I don't care whether you like it or not, I will always respond to you in kind and you will always cry about it.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    "Through the ages, we have been perplexed at the fact that people who don't play by the rules have an apparent advantage over those who do, and "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" has been the rallying cry of those who see the abandonment of values as the only way to prosper."

    This is a proven fact. Gaming theory 101. It is the opposite of a fallacy. Curious, though, that by presenting this you are tacitly acknowledging your own actions. You are criticizing me for behaving like you do. It will always be clear that you are the instigator here, as you always are.

    The "abandonment of all ethical standards" in this case is not mine, it's MTBR's moderation approach and your bad behavior. No one should ever be rewarded for bad behavior. Responding in kind is the only way to deal with people like you in the absence of proper moderation. I don't care whether you like it or not, I will always respond to you in kind and you will always cry about it.
    Wrong , Craig, I admit my behaviour was bad and that I instigated the tit for tat insult exchanges for one base reason: I don't like you or your attitude, and have never read any of your posts which would indicate that you were entlitled to any respect, much less deference. What I'm laughing at now is Mr. Supposedly logical trying to justify as "moral" his responding in kind using the fallacious "he started it " defense. Come now boy, your parents or primary school teachers must have screwed up. Mine taught me, relevant to the issues in this thread 2 things. 1) if you can dish it out, you have to learn take it. 2) if you are scolded for punching or cursing out your little brother, or another kid, " he hit me first" has nothing to do with it Hittingb and cursing are not permitted here, you are both wrong,you both have stop.

    Moral of the story, the fact that I started it gives you ZERO moral high ground. Trying to get that by tugging on your boot straps, only tarnishes your supposed "logical" image and is suggestive rather of a very low I.Q.

    Now I've gone ahead and shot across the bow of your ONLY ally on this thread


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    Last edited by dwt; 05-29-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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  52. #152
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    If threads could speak, this one would be begging to get locked.

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Wrong , Craig, I admit my behaviour was bad and that I instigated the tit for tat insult exchanges for one base reason: I don't like you or your attitude, and have never read any of your posts which would indicate that you were entlitled to any respect, much less deference. What I'm laughing at now is Mr. Supposedly logical trying to justify as "moral" his responding in kind using the fallacious "he started it " defense. Come now boy, your parents must have screwed up. Mine taught me, relevant to the issues in this thread 2 things. 1)?If you can dish it out, you have to take it. 2) if you are scolded for punching or cursing out your little brother,
    Tit for tat is not "he started it". No surprise you describe it as such, can't expect any better from you.

    From Wikipedia:

    Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation". It is also a highly effective strategy in game theory for the iterated prisoner's dilemma. The strategy was first introduced by Anatol Rapoport in Robert Axelrod's two tournaments, held around 1980. An agent using this strategy will initially cooperate, then respond in kind to an opponent's previous action. If the opponent previously was cooperative, the agent is cooperative. If not, the agent is not. This is similar to superrationality and reciprocal altruism in biology.
    So, as usual, dwt, you are both insulting and wrong. Not only is tit for tat moral, it is the only approach that truly is.

    It's interesting how you can dish it out but can't take it. Looks like your parents are the ones that screwed up. Keep it up, "boy".

  54. #154
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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Tit for tat is not "he started it". No surprise you describe it as such, can't expect any better from you.


    So, as usual, dwt, you are both insulting and wrong. Not only is tit for tat moral, it is the only approach that truly is.

    It's interesting how you can dish it out but can't take it. Looks like your parents are the ones that screwed up. Keep it up, "boy".
    Srorry, professor, my bad.

    "He did itbfirst"'is its own fallacy, subset of "two wrongs don't make a right" so youbarecstill wrong and twisting in the wind, trying to justify your bad behaviourv with " he started it" defense. Bitt

    http. ://issuepedia.org/Two_wrongs_fallacy
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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Srorry, professor, my bad.

    "He did itbfirst"'is its own fallacy, subset of "two wrongs don't make a right" so youbarecstill wrong and twisting in the wind, trying to justify your bad behaviourv with " he started it" defense. Bitt

    http. ://issuepedia.org/Two_wrongs_fallacy
    Your anger is interfering with your typing now.

    "he did it first" is its own fallacy? That's hilarious.

    From your link:

    The two wrongs fallacy refers to any statement where a given action which is known to be wrong is justified by the presumption that another person did, or would have done, the same thing under corresponding circumstances.
    But tit for tat doesn't say this. Tit for tat says that a given action is justified when the other person has ALREADY done it. In fact, it is necessary to discourage further behavior.

    You are showing, once again, how limited your intellect is. You must be quite a lawyer considering how you get this wrong.

  56. #156
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    Originally Posted by craigsj
    Tit for tat is not "he started it". No surprise you describe it as such, can't expect any better from you.


    So, as usual, dwt, you are both insulting and wrong. Not only is tit for tat moral, it is the only approach that truly is.

    It's interesting how you can dish it out but can't take it. Looks like your parents are the ones that screwed up. Keep it up, "boy".
    Srorry, professor, my bad.

    "He did it first"'is its own fallacy, subset of "two wrongs don't make a right" so you are still wrong and twisting in the wind, trying to justify your bad behavior with the"he started it" defense. That is schoolyard logic;hence:"boy". We are both at fault, not just one. I admit it. Time for you to man up.

    http://issuepedia.org/Two_wrongs_fallacy
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  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    That is schoolyard logic;hence:"boy".
    No, "boy" is another of your petty insults, just like your quip about my parents. You just can't stop nor have you ever been able to. You don't get your way so you throw a tantrum and them blame it on others.

    I recall something about winners and losers and rep points...so much for that. Just remember, all that contempt for me is really just contempt for yourself, all I do is throw your garbage back at you.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    No, "boy" is another of your petty insults, just like your quip about my parents. You just can't stop nor have you ever been able to. You don't get your way so you throw a tantrum and them blame it on others.

    I recall something about winners and losers and rep points...so much for that. Just remember, all that contempt for me is really just contempt for yourself, all I do is throw your garbage back at you.
    Ditto. No tantrums here. Project much?
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  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Ditto. No tantrums here. Project much?
    Unlike you, I didn't complain about risking rep points. I do what I've always done, tit for tat. You want to keep up with the insults, you'll keep getting them back. I'm happy with the forum seeing you for who you are, not that it's any mystery at this point.

    It's interesting how many times you've used profanity in this thread. Tantrum is your middle name.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    If threads could speak, this one would be begging to get locked.
    Agreed. I think both users could stand a time out for the forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  61. #161
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    My entry is B-tweener , since that's what it is
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

  62. #162
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    Zactekly

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGHORN LEW View Post
    My entry is B-tweener , since that's what it is
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  63. #163
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    Yes, lock it capitan!


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  64. #164
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    I just got the 2013 FOX Shox price list..they're showing 27.5" forks.

    In 1920 the "Balloon" 2.125" tires were 26" in diameter.

    The average 26x2.3 is about 26.5"

    A Schwalbe Muddy Mary 2.5 is 27.25

    A 650b 2.25 is about 27.5"

    A bigger 650b is close to 28"

    An Ikon 29 x 2.25 is 29"

    An Ardent 2.4 is 29.25"

    A Hans Dampf 2.3 is 29.5"

    So, yes, 650b isn't quite half way between sizes, but 27.5 still seems to be a reasonable name, and in 7 pages no one has come up with a better one.

    Once again, i never planned to start a pointless battle, but to help get this wheel size rolling by giving it a name consumers can understand.
    Santa Cruz Bronson 2 27.5/Rockshox Pike/Sram XX1
    Salsa Mukluk/Rockshox Bluto/Sram X1

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by krispy@go-ride.com View Post
    So, yes, 650b isn't quite half way between sizes, but 27.5 still seems to be a reasonable name, and in 7 pages no one has come up with a better one.

    Once again, i never planned to start a pointless battle, but to help get this wheel size rolling by giving it a name consumers can understand.
    Consumers can understand 650b. It's just a name after all and they understand 700c just fine. 650b exists and is unambiguous. That's the better one.

  66. #166
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    That's true, but in road 700c is 95% of what is sold. There is basically one road size.
    Santa Cruz Bronson 2 27.5/Rockshox Pike/Sram XX1
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  67. #167
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    Imagine, 95% of what is sold is named something consumers can't understand.

  68. #168
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    I'm done with the time wasting. If any of you have something constructive to add please do so.
    Santa Cruz Bronson 2 27.5/Rockshox Pike/Sram XX1
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  69. #169
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    Embrace cognitive dissonance.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Can we just call it 27.5?-epistemology_1.png  

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  70. #170
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    Did I miss something while I was out riding my 650b?

  71. #171
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    I suggest a PM war...take the bickering off the thread please..

  72. #172
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    Your tires have been recalled. The suitable replacements will say "Size Large" on them.
    Santa Cruz Bronson 2 27.5/Rockshox Pike/Sram XX1
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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by krispy@go-ride.com View Post
    I'm done with the time wasting. If any of you have something constructive to add please do so.
    constructive? heck yeah. give up.

    EVERY single popular biking term has been the one accepted by the largest number of unwashed masses.

    "faux bar", "brake jack", "all mountain", "freeride"....the list goes on and on. the truth behind the statements means nothing, the support of the masses behind those statements mean everything. looking at the sidebar ads, the bike companies are pushing "650b" and very likely that is the term that will stick in the colloquial consciousness, and no amount of mtbr zealotry has the power to affect the masses.

    AZ MTNS said it best..."i don't care what it's called, but i want one"
    160mm travel for mine, please.
    what would rainbow unicorn do?

  74. #174
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    Kirk,
    "fact... not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall." to borrow from Dr. Jones...

    ++++++

    I mentioned such in another thread, but, I'll repeat it here:

    700c is the 'road bike' standard these days. 29" is the same size as the 700c, but it's a new label, to differentiate that it's a mountain bike. If you see 700c, you know it's for a roadbike, if you see 29er you know it's a MTB.

    650b is far older, and will still be around. Where it's akin to 700c, I like the idea of using 650b for 'touring' bikes, etc. As 29er is a 700c, just with a pseudonym so you know it's a mountain bike, not a road bike, why can't 650b have an alternate name, too?

    So, sure, use 27.5 or whatever, and you know it's the same thing as a 650b, but would be expecting knobby tires, whereas 650b means it's a roadish/mixed terrain tire. There are other 27s used, there are other 28s used, but 27.5 isn't used by anyone else for any other bike standard; so, yeah, I like 27.5 because it can*only* mean an equivalent to 650b.

    A caveat: Amongst my tires, I have a set of the Conti's Tour Rides... on their sidewall, they don't have either, they say 26 x 1 1/2 on them... ack. I would have thought I was sent the wrong tire. However, looking more closely, there it was, 584-42. That 584 told me, it was a 650b.

    So, regardless of being called a 650b or a 27.5 or anything else, I hope all manufacturers will have the ISO size 584 on there, just as an additional check...

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by LNBright View Post
    Kirk,
    "fact... not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall." to borrow from Dr. Jones...

    ++++++

    I mentioned such in another thread, but, I'll repeat it here:

    700c is the 'road bike' standard these days. 29" is the same size as the 700c, but it's a new label, to differentiate that it's a mountain bike. If you see 700c, you know it's for a roadbike, if you see 29er you know it's a MTB.

    650b is far older, and will still be around. Where it's akin to 700c, I like the idea of using 650b for 'touring' bikes, etc. As 29er is a 700c, just with a pseudonym so you know it's a mountain bike, not a road bike, why can't 650b have an alternate name, too?

    So, sure, use 27.5 or whatever, and you know it's the same thing as a 650b, but would be expecting knobby tires, whereas 650b means it's a roadish/mixed terrain tire. There are other 27s used, there are other 28s used, but 27.5 isn't used by anyone else for any other bike standard; so, yeah, I like 27.5 because it can*only* mean an equivalent to 650b.

    A caveat: Amongst my tires, I have a set of the Conti's Tour Rides... on their sidewall, they don't have either, they say 26 x 1 1/2 on them... ack. I would have thought I was sent the wrong tire. However, looking more closely, there it was, 584-42. That 584 told me, it was a 650b.

    So, regardless of being called a 650b or a 27.5 or anything else, I hope all manufacturers will have the ISO size 584 on there, just as an additional check...
    Simple, clear concise informative constructive;
    Thank you.

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    Last edited by dwt; 06-04-2012 at 12:52 PM.
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  76. #176
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    No we can't call it 27.5 but your free to

    Just took a quick look at my bike and wheels which I've been riding for the last three years.
    Looks like the ship has sailed on the whole "naming" thing.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Can we just call it 27.5?-june2012-181.jpg  

    Can we just call it 27.5?-june2012-180.jpg  

    Can we just call it 27.5?-june2012-182.jpg  


  77. #177
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    Really it doesn't matter what any of us say. Whatever FOX decides to call it will steer the ship. While I think it is absurd that a suspension company will have the main influence on what a wheel size is called, they are the most "common man" big company currently in the mix, and that will set the precedent. So unless Specialized or Trek (or just Mr. Fischer) hand down a product with the size on the side, I think FOX has the reigns.

    I hope it is 650b though, I think it is cleaner sounding than 27.5 (when said out loud).

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombinate View Post
    I think FOX has the reigns.
    You are giving Fox far too much credit. It isn't up to them. It's whatever the mass community will call it. It's just a designation. It's has little meaning on it's own and two-niner or twenty-niners were never called 700C...

    27.5 sounds lame. Too many syllables.

  79. #179
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    Called it

    I'm accepting the slow death of this worthless thread as proof that my prediction of a forum apocalypse has come true.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/650b/revoluti...ml#post9201475

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  80. #180

  81. #181
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    Again, just because it rolled back up - it's been called 650b or B by the early adopters for 5 or 6 years now, and all the sudden it should be changed to 27 five just because?

    I've been called Michael my whole life, and now you should call me 6 five because that how tall I am. Makes about as much sense.

    Let's just call it Guillermo or something equally as arbitrary
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  82. #182
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    To me, the best reasons not to use 27.5" over 650b:

    Example 1: A 700c rim is ~27" with road tires, ~28" with a CX tire, and ~29" with a mountain tire. Are we can sell the same rim in three different sizes depending on what tire you choose to put on it?

    Example: What size tire fits on a 26" rim? Today we only have 559mm 26" rims. However if you like old bikes, 571mm and 597mm rims are also 26" wheels. You can also argue that a 650c (used on small road bikes) and a 650b (with a road tire) are 26" wheels. So when you go to buy a tire to fit your 26" rim and the guy behind the counter hands you a 650c road tire, what are you going to say: "no, I mean the other 26 inch rim."

    The 700c, 650b, 650c, etc. systems is outdated and the numbers/letters don't mean what they did originally but it's better than remembering that you 622mm, 584mm, or 559mm tires.

    Also, a better argument to make is why the hell do people in the US (yes, I'm one of them) cling to inches anyway? Every developed country except one (and nearly all of other countries) use the same system for taking measurements: the metric system. In the age of the world economy, no reasonable argument can be made why any product should be measured in inches. 26, 27.5 and 29 inch wheels is almost as antiquated as the French system that gave us the 700c and 650b names.
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  83. #183
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    700c with road tires isnt even 27 inches though, and what cross tires are you using to get to 28" ?
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  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
    700c with road tires isnt even 27 inches though, and what cross tires are you using to get to 28" ?
    Thus the "~" which means approximately.

    Continental tubes (made in Germany) that I use in my 700c CX bike labels there boxes as 28-inch tubes. I always have double check that they are 700c tubes as no one in the US calls any tire size 28 inches.
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  85. #185
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    27.5 inches ? None of my bikes have 27.5 inch wheels ... they do have 27.somethinganddependinghowwornoutheyare wheels though. Just call them for what they are for some decades now ... 650b.

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF52 View Post
    Again, just because it rolled back up - it's been called 650b or B by the early adopters for 5 or 6 years now, and all the sudden it should be changed to 27 five just because?

    I've been called Michael my whole life, and now you should call me 6 five because that how tall I am. Makes about as much sense.

    Let's just call it Guillermo or something equally as arbitrary
    'Sup 6 five?

    Of course I'd rather be chatting with 7 of 9. There's another thread for that.
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  87. #187
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    WFIW, Scott's people (the biggest conspirators I guess) are calling it 27".

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF52 View Post
    I've been called Michael my whole life, and now you should call me 6 five because that how tall I am. Makes about as much sense.
    No, we will call you "IF52".

  89. #189
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    New plan, we call it "Mountain B." Obviously not 650B, cause that is a trekking tire. Not 27" cause that is an old roadbike standard that it still in wide enough use. Not 27.5, because if we are going to be arbitrary, it would be better to go with 27".

    So MountainB. You hard it here first

  90. #190
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    just call it "fity B"

    and send me my royalty checks

  91. #191
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    Resurrecting this thread, after coming across this Youtube vid
    650B Trends_Scott Bicycles-Mountain Bike Action Magazine - YouTube

    "We, like Mountain Bike Action, are using the inch measurement... we want to keep it inches because we don't want to change units of measure while we're talking about a bike..."

    Hah! Sucking up to MBA, the rag that uses ounces and grams; inches and millimeters in the same sentence.

    Adrian himself says "...you get a hundred fifty millimeters of travel with a 27.5-inch wheel..."

    Silly.

    If you watch the whole series of "650B Trends" by hitorquemags (there's one on Intense, and a few others) it seems just like a pathetic attempt at pushing for the "27.5" moniker. And yet they named it "650B Trends."
    Better to have and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1Gel View Post
    "We, like Mountain Bike Action, are using the inch measurement... we want to keep it inches because we don't want to change units of measure while we're talking about a bike..."

    Hah! Sucking up to MBA, the rag that uses ounces and grams; inches and millimeters in the same sentence.
    Those idiots use fractional ounces where every frigging body else uses grams. It is stupidity. Grade A moronic.

  93. #193
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    Look at the new name of this forum. Just saying.

    PS: ounces should have been abandoned a hundred years ago...

  94. #194
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    But inches is somehow less asinine?

  95. #195
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    Six fifty B, six fifty, two seven five, two seventy five, twenty seven? It's all the same to me and most people who are in the know, will know what you are talking about no matter what lingo you use. I really don't think it matters at this point what you call it.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobaar View Post
    MUCH closer?

    559
    584 (+25mm/4.5%)
    622 (+38mm/6.5 %)

    I guess we need to switch to 650A (590mm BSD) to use 27.5"?

    Much like everything else 650b, its going to be the manufacturers that set the terms here, and 27.5 seems to be gaining traction from what I see.

    27.5" is easier to explain to the customer that doesn't have any idea what 650b is (26", 27.5", 29" makes more sense thatn 26", 650B, 29").

    It also prevents confusion with 650C (571mm BSD). 700c works because 700a, b, and d are all practically obsolete. 700B (635 BSD) tires are out there, but everyone calls them 28".
    Yeah really, 6 whole mm difference from exactly halfway between the other sizes. Although I wouldn't mind trying some 650a and 700B bikes!

  97. #197
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    This dumbass subject has been beaten to death

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    Some people can't get over the most picayune and irrelevant details. Ride the wheel size, whatever name you want to call it. Who friggin' cares? Get real

    If you like it, post in this forum. If you don't and like 29", there are two forums for that; if you like 26" there are the AM, FR and DH forums. In all the forums, there are far more important and interesting topics than whether to use metric or imperial measurements and whether it is cool or not to mix them in the same paragraph.


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  98. #198
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    I agree with dwt. You are allowed to mix units in the same sentence, how often do we talk about frame weights in ibs and top tube lengths in mm? So using 650b or 27.5 is just fine as far I'm concerned.

  99. #199
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    Folks who want to keep this pointless argument going might want to check out this South African forum:

    650B is NOT 27.5&#34; - Rant 'n Rave - thehubsa.co.za
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  100. #200
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    Let's call it Goldilocks. It seems to fit just right. (insert drum roll)

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