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  1. #1
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    Battle of 2 yet to be released 650beasts!

    One of these will soon be mine. Sexier? Better design? Decisions decisions....Watch the first 2 minutes of each vid and give your thoughts as this is becoming a tough choice. Geo #s are real close! Norco Range carbon, 160mm. Knolly Warden, 150mm...

  2. #2
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    Could only upload one video per post, heres the Warden.

  3. #3
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    Sorry, I don´t see anything that these two, although being really good Bikes, could do any better than your Rune, except saving some Weight.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoStyle View Post
    Sorry, I don´t see anything that these two, although being really good Bikes, could do any better than your Rune, except saving some Weight.
    Both have longer top tubes which is really about important to me to avoid going to an XL, different suspension designs and as you mentioned they are both lighter. I also have the opportunity to switch frames now and I will not in the next few years. Enough reasons?

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    Careful, you'll bring the masses of Pinkbike over here to tell you the same thing twice.

    Let me ask you this: would you compromise the climbing abilities of your Rune to gain better "big-hit" performance?

    The tough part about your rush to replace the Rune is that neither the Warden nor the Range Carbon have released weights yet. Weights for the Warden have been estimate by myself and others, but that doesn't guarantee the thing will weigh 6.5lbs with shock. It may end up being 7+.

    The Range Carbon could shed as much as %25 off the frame weight. Lets say the Alloy version weighs 8lbs. That'd make it around 6.5lbs. That's just a guess though, who knows what the production frame weight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Both have longer top tubes which is really about important to me to avoid going to an XL, different suspension designs and as you mentioned they are both lighter. I also have the opportunity to switch frames now and I will not in the next few years. Enough reasons?
    It's not just about TT, I seen bikes with an inch longer TT and still have the same reach as my current bike.
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  7. #7
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    This is effective top tube lengths. As for weight, the Warden is somewhere in between the Endorphin and Chilcotin which is about a full pound lighter than the Rune, the Range in the video is listed at 27 and a half pounds, My Rune is just under 31. With my build I would be looking at 28 and a half pounds.

    Bottom line is I'm getting a new bike, let's forget I have the rune and comment on the bikes above!

  8. #8
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    All things being equal I'd rather support Knolly.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    As for weight, the Warden is somewhere in between the Endorphin and Chilcotin which is about a full pound lighter than the Rune
    Is this statement saying you think the Chili is a pound lighter than the Rune and therefore the Warden, if a pound lighter than the Chili would be 2lbs lighter than the Rune?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Is this statement saying you think the Chili is a pound lighter than the Rune and therefore the Warden, if a pound lighter than the Chili would be 2lbs lighter than the Rune?
    Wrench Science has the Warden listed at 6.76lbs. I'm not clear on what size that is, but it gets you into the ballpark.

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  11. #11
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    Saying the Warden will be about a pound lighter and the Range would be about a .1.5lbs lighter. Nothing anyone says will convince me to keep the Rune, I will go into the next few years with the bike "I" want!

  12. #12
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    Carbine 275 is listed at 5.50lbs.

    Devinci Troy at 6.0lbs.

    Mojo HDR at 6lbs

    Rune V2es have been weighed at 7.9lbs with shock.

    I dunno, the Warden is going to be pricey for it's relative weight.
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  13. #13
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    All short top tubes & suspension designs I don't care for. Again, looking for feedback on the 2 "I" like...

    The Wardens weight is pretty impressive for a Knolly actually.

  14. #14
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    Socal,

    I gave you some weights to compare "weight vs price" ratio.

    I don't think California is the best place to be riding an active suspension design like the Knolly. It's going to suck on those long smooth climbs. Granted a pedaling platform like the CCBA-CS will help tremendously, but the same shock on the Range would be just as awesome if not better, and complimented by a lower frame weight.

    If you haven't noticed on this forum and PinkBike I'm pretty supportive of designs that incorporate lots of anti-squat or at least remain somewhat flat above 100%.

    This is mostly because I don't have the money to purchase a lightweight frame AND get a high-tech shock like the CCBA-CS, Float-X or Monarch Plus.

    I want the suspension design to do the work for me, ala DW-Link.

    Now, if you've got a trail bike or a hard-tail and you hit lots of parks, the Knolly may make more sense.
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    Norco Range in carbon looks great. I got to try that one out. I don't get the alloy chainstay on this at all! Seems ridiculous to me to go with that at that price point with all the other features on this build.

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    Fair enough Pheller but I love a more active suspension, did not care for the lazier VPP carbon Nomad I had for comparison. Knolly pedal better than most people think, I would still have the delirium I had if it weren't for the shorter top tube. With Big Bear opened up several months out of the year, I will be up there many times.

  17. #17
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    Socal, I will say this:

    The downside to lots of anti-squat is higher pedal kickback at 0mm. Mondraker has been able to remove pedal kickback while still having crazy high anti-squat, the Norco has more than the Banshee.

    You may prefer the Warden with a good pedal platform.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    You may prefer the Warden with an Avalanche rear shock.
    Fixed it for you

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrniceguy42 View Post
    Fixed it for you
    Funny how true it is. My Chili with Avy Woodie pedals better than my Endo with CTD in trail mode.

    Sounds to me like SocalMX wants a bike with suspension that actually works. In that case, why would you inhibit that magic with shock platform?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Funny how true it is. My Chili with Avy Woodie pedals better than my Endo with CTD in trail mode.

    Sounds to me like SocalMX wants a bike with suspension that actually works. In that case, why would you inhibit that magic with shock platform?
    This. While I havent ridden a warden, I will try to use my chilcotin to describe how I imagine the warden will be. Take this with a grain of salt.

    It wont be the lightest, most efficient, (insert other fancy marketing term here) bike on the market. If your trail consists of buff single track and fire roads, yeah, you may want to look elsewhere, but if there is any hint of techy uphill or burly downhill, then I think the warden will shine for you. I prefer the "active" feel, regardless of the trail. I will gladly lug my "heavy, active" chili around for one reason, once pointed down, there is no other bike I would want to be on. 4x4 + AVY is unbeatable IMO.

    My vote is Warden but the Norco looks very cool and I wouldn't mind a Rune either. Yea, I'm not much help...haha. I would have trouble sleeping at night if I was getting a Warden and I had that derby wheelset. I would give a nut for some derby rims in 26", just so I dont have to ever sell my chili. Haha. Good luck on your decision.

  21. #21
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    Thanks for the info guys. As for shocks, I have heard great things on the Avy stuff, mainly on the Knolly forums but must say I'm getting on nicely with the new Float-X. Light years better than standard CTD, valving is spot on and it has a coil like bottomless feel. I'm 6-2 220 geared and sure I could lose some bike weight but have no problems pushing a 32lb bike around. The Derbys, its like cheating it ain't even funny.

  22. #22
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    Fwiw I found my medium chilcotin to feel smaller than the ETT suggested. I also couldn't figure out how they got the measurement to 23.5 ETT inches when going from the middle of the head tube to the middle of the seat post horizontally. My point is check the reach numbers too and try and sit on one prior. Unfortunately the #s are different on the warden than the chilcotin and endorphin so you can't try them for size. Love the 4x4 suspension. I had dbair on mine.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrniceguy42 View Post
    This. While I havent ridden a warden, I will try to use my chilcotin to describe how I imagine the warden will be. Take this with a grain of salt.

    It wont be the lightest, most efficient, (insert other fancy marketing term here) bike on the market. If your trail consists of buff single track and fire roads, yeah, you may want to look elsewhere, but if there is any hint of techy uphill or burly downhill, then I think the warden will shine for you. I prefer the "active" feel, regardless of the trail. I will gladly lug my "heavy, active" chili around for one reason, once pointed down, there is no other bike I would want to be on. 4x4 + AVY is unbeatable IMO.

    My vote is Warden but the Norco looks very cool and I wouldn't mind a Rune either. Yea, I'm not much help...haha. I would have trouble sleeping at night if I was getting a Warden and I had that derby wheelset. I would give a nut for some derby rims in 26", just so I dont have to ever sell my chili. Haha. Good luck on your decision.
    Exactly. I must admit, I am looking hard at the Warden, but the Chili is so damn good I'm not sure I can part. The bike is dialed, is a tad heavy at 34lbs, but makes a killer monster truck when mashing through the chunder. I would lose a bit with the Warden with its slightly smaller tubing. I find the extra weight of the chili really helps when ripping downhill or climbing up. Besides, a Warden with an air shock would be a disgrace after the Chili with an Avy.

    Glad you like your bike as much as I do, sounds like we like the same type of terrain, and certainly have the same thought process when it comes to bikes.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Thanks for the info guys. As for shocks, I have heard great things on the Avy stuff, mainly on the Knolly forums but must say I'm getting on nicely with the new Float-X. Light years better than standard CTD, valving is spot on and it has a coil like bottomless feel. I'm 6-2 220 geared and sure I could lose some bike weight but have no problems pushing a 32lb bike around. The Derbys, its like cheating it ain't even funny.
    No doubt. A light Warden would be a trail ripper. I would contact Knolly about the Float X though, I have heard there may be clearance issues with the 3D rockers. Hopefully it works out for you because you can have the best air shock on the market.

    Look here...really, look here....Float X High/Low SSD Kit
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    No doubt. A light Warden would be a trail ripper. I would contact Knolly about the Float X though, I have heard there may be clearance issues with the 3D rockers. Hopefully it works out for you because you can have the best air shock on the market.

    Look here...really, look here....Float X High/Low SSD Kit
    Wholly chit man, thanks for that link!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Wholly chit man, thanks for that link!
    I have a DHX SSD'd. It was night and day over the original configuration, so fast and responsive/reactive, though it'll never out perform a coil. In reality, at your weight (I'm 6'3,210ish) I'd give an Avy coil a go. Sure your going to gain a few hundred grams but the outstanding, second to nothing performance it is more than worth the penalty. A CORRECTLY tuned coil shock will provide an equal-to-air, if not better climbing performance. Do I need to mention that it'll absolutely blow air of the mountain on the downs?

  27. #27
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    Best performing coil I had was a ti coiled RC4 with a Push link on my NomadC. I'm pretty happy with the newer air shocks thus far though I'm not ruling out trying the Avy.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    I have a DHX SSD'd. It was night and day over the original configuration, so fast and responsive/reactive, though it'll never out perform a coil. In reality, at your weight (I'm 6'3,210ish) I'd give an Avy coil a go. Sure your going to gain a few hundred grams but the outstanding, second to nothing performance it is more than worth the penalty. A CORRECTLY tuned coil shock will provide an equal-to-air, if not better climbing performance. Do I need to mention that it'll absolutely blow air of the mountain on the downs?
    This man speaks the truth. I really appreciate my Woodie for our tech climbing, traction is never an issue. I have always run a coil on the Chili, so I can't compare to an air shock. I do run a CTD on my Endo, but it is built for smoother, less aggressive terrain. I struggle with the idea of putting an Avy coil on it for the weight. It is a difficult compromise depending on the purpose of the bike. An Avy'd Float X might be an incredible compromise. I would highly suggest checking with compatibility with the Warden though, as I have been told the Float X will not work with my Endo.
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  29. #29
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    Being the Warden comes with a larger DBAir, I don't think the smaller X would have clearance issues!?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Being the Warden comes with a larger DBAir, I don't think the smaller X would have clearance issues!?
    It has more to do with the way the top of the FloatX is built. It also creates an issues getting to the rebound adjuster. Probably worth a call to Knolly just to be sure.
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  31. #31
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    Will check on it.

    Now more opinions on the 2 bikes!

  32. #32
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    No opinion on those particular frames. But I'd support knolly as a company.

  33. #33
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    I had a Knolly and it is a great company for sure and it looks like that is what I will end up with. Not too sure on Norcos rep as the forums are slow.

  34. #34
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    I'm somewhat conflicted on these frames as well. Although for me would add the devinci Troy Carbon and Sight (instead of Range).

    I'm really hoping to get a chance to throw a leg over the Warden at the Knollfest so will have a better idea how they compare. Love Knolly and trust their design and durability. Know nothing about Norco or Devinci re customer service and long term durability so they would have to be a lot better to sway me away from the warden......but I really want a light weight carbon bike to compliment my Chili. .....

    Hopefully a ride on the Warden will clear things up.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    I'm somewhat conflicted on these frames as well. Although for me would add the devinci Troy Carbon and Sight (instead of Range).

    I'm really hoping to get a chance to throw a leg over the Warden at the Knollfest so will have a better idea how they compare. Love Knolly and trust their design and durability. Know nothing about Norco or Devinci re customer service and long term durability so they would have to be a lot better to sway me away from the warden......but I really want a light weight carbon bike to compliment my Chili. .....

    Hopefully a ride on the Warden will clear things up.
    If you went with a Warden, would it be to replace the Chili? I don't see the 2 bikes coexisting very well, lots of overlap. I do like the Warden, a 29LB trail ripper that has 92.5% of the Chili's ability seems reasonable.
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  36. #36
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    Battle of 2 yet to be released 650beasts!

    Totally agree TiSS'er. I loved my chilcotin but I wasn't close to taking it to its full potential. So a lighter bike that would be good on both the more rough and technical as well as the flowy trails appeals.


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  37. #37
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    Yes. Based on the numbers that's the "problem" with the Warden for me. It does look like it will overlap the chili quite a bit. A test ride hopefully will tell us more accurately how it leans.

    Maybe a 130-140 carbon 27.5 endo is in the works. That would solve my dilemma.
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  38. #38
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    Not many Norco fans out there!?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Not many Norco fans out there!?
    Not if the other option is Knolly.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Not many Norco fans out there!?
    I really like what Norco is offering for the money, and I think if I had $3500 I'd look no further than the Range Carbon.

    However, if I had $4500 in my budget I'd rather go for the Pivot Mach 6 (used) or a Mondraker Dune or the Knolly.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Not many Norco fans out there!?
    The Range and Sight are very good performers but since I've never ever even seen a Warden and since I don't believe in keyboard e-speculation I have nothing to add wrt to a comparison.
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  42. #42
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    Plus the right Frame-Sizing and Geometry seems to be the most important Aspect to choose, as both Rune and Delirium felt "too short" in effective Toptube-Length. Doesn´t Matter what Suspension-System, because all of them work pretty good these Days and the KS-Link is hard to pass in my honest Opinion. The Focus should be on Demoride these two as soon as they are available ...

  43. #43
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    I already have a refundable deposit on the Range but things are looking better and better for Knolly. Found out the Warden will be offered in my fave Knolly blue and stealth dropper routing.

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    Getting closer to the release of these bikes. I keep getting conflicting release dates & its driving me crazy! I will be demoing a Mach 6 this weekend just for fun at a free demo, others have mentioned this bike, lets see if I like it. I got in a short demo on a alloy range last week and although the weather was bad, it gave me a pretty good idea of the ride. The demo bike had a terrible stem/bar combo but that aside, the rear end felt great even with a lower end x-fusion shock. Bobbed a bit when standing and climbing but that would be negated with the climb switch DBAir. When pointed down hill it was a blast and tracked really well. I love the short stays with longish top tube, super playful.

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    I have a Carbon Range 7.2 on order with a few small upgrades (hopefully for January) after trying a friends aluminium Range - in spite of my friends Range being an XL and plainly too big for me it climbed like a goat, just felt right. I had a list that I was checking out - Troy, Process, Altitude etc. but ended up settling on the Range.

    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Getting closer to the release of these bikes. I keep getting conflicting release dates & its driving me crazy! I will be demoing a Mach 6 this weekend just for fun at a free demo, others have mentioned this bike, lets see if I like it. I got in a short demo on a alloy range last week and although the weather was bad, it gave me a pretty good idea of the ride. The demo bike had a terrible stem/bar combo but that aside, the rear end felt great even with a lower end x-fusion shock. Bobbed a bit when standing and climbing but that would be negated with the climb switch DBAir. When pointed down hill it was a blast and tracked really well. I love the short stays with longish top tube, super playful.

  46. #46
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    Well, I had the privilege to demo a Warden yesterday making this decision that much tougher. Although my ride was short nursing a separated shoulder (aggravated it a bit) I got a real good idea of the bikes performance. I loved it, it fit like a glove, The 4x4 was absolute magic with the DBAir, 100% legit. Climbing this thing in steep tech will be a blast, don't think there is a suspension design out there that tracks as well, stays glued while climbing rather than skipping over stuff causing loss of traction. I am stuck on the carbon Range but this is making the decision that much tougher. The bike has a much nicer "attack" position than my Rune and descending just feels lively and a flat out blast. I did demo a "alloy" Range as well and not sure if it was the terrible weather that day or the poor build on the Range I had but the Knolly was jump on and I was comfortable and ready and the Range took a while for me to get along.

  47. #47
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    Nice review SoCal. I totally agree with your observations on the Warden. Such a great all around bike: great climber, rippin' descender, balanced, incredible stiffness, etc.

    Glad you liked it. At your height, it sounds like the large fit you a bit better than it did me.

    So, after your ride would you agree with ti'SSer's pre-ride assessment? 29 lb trail ripper with 92.5% of the Chili's capability?
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  48. #48
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    Being I have had many 6" travel AM bikes including my current Banshee Rune pictured above, I would say the Warden will have at least 95% the capability of the Chili, Rune, or any other 6" bike out there but being it will climb better that 5% would qualify it as more capable in other areas so it would balance out. The 5% or maybe even less is when you get into the bigger huck free ride type stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    Glad you liked it. At your height, it sounds like the large fit you a bit better than it did me.
    How tall are each of you? And did you both demo a large Warden?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayonays View Post
    How tall are each of you? And did you both demo a large Warden?
    I am just under 6-2 and yes, we both demoed the Warden. Pic above is my Rune & the Warden I demoed.

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