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  1. #1
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    Smile 650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty

    Have you ridden one of these HD's?

    It is awesome!

    Rather than add more to the 3+ year old 650b Mojo thread, I thought it would be more clear to isolate the 650b HD conversion into a separate thread.

    For the last 5 years my Mojo C has been the most reliable full suspension frame, by far, in 15 years of owning FS bikes. I continued to demo ride many other bikes, but was always more happy returning to my Mojo for my riding interests of lighter climbing weight, easy efficient pedaling, good handling, and very smooth suspension. I had always wanted a stiffer frame, the Lopes Link helped a lot. A year ago Santa Cruz introduced stiffer and as light weight 5.5 inch travel carbon fiber bike, the LTC. Until then no other 5.5 inch travel bike matched the weight and stiffness of the Mojo C and SL.

    Now the new Mojo SL-R is lighter and as minimal in flex as any other with 5.5 travel, but it doesn’t clear 650b. The HD is even stiffer than the SL-R and with the same shock is only ½ pound heavier than my Mojo C, and most important to me, the HD easily clears 650b.

    The HD can be set up as a 140mm or 160mm travel bike using different shocks and mounting hardware.

    I wanted to see what the change in frame would do to handling, with no other changes from my C. So I swapped everything over from my C. The only thing different was the HD frame and the shifter cables to match the different lengths, and the new direct-mount XT front derailleur. So I’m starting with 140mm travel, Shimano 10 speed 11-36 cogs, 9 speed 22-32 rings, coil Lyrik u-turn front, PUSH'd Vanilla RC rear, and 650b X 2.3 Pacenti Neo-Motos.

    First flight on the HD…

    I went for a familiar 17 mile local loop including 2 miles road commute each way, Tamarancho, with an alternative faster downhill exit into Cascade Canyon. The loop from my home makes a little more than 2000 vertical climbing, and the reward of that much downhill. It includes pavement and smooth hard pack to mostly rough eroded gravely rocky singletrack, and a faster speed overgrown fireroad alternative downhill exit to the back roads returning home.

    Tuning my rear shock was interesting. The HD made the same shock’s settings from the C feel firmer. Adding the Lopes-Link on my C did the same thing but not as big a difference. I ended up reducing coil preload and softening damping, with 1 full turn less preload (that's a big difference when I noticed the difference of 1/4 turn firmer or softer on the C). And I softened compression 3 clicks to be wide open, and softened rebound 1 click. I think the HD must be more linear just under sag than the C, and the stiffness makes the shock work harder.

    I'm sure it's been said many times, the HD is solid. The feel of the tires' traction is confidence inspiring, to be able to push corners harder and through rocks with precise control. And the response to pedal effort feels more powerful, encouraging using a higher gear bringing more momentum and ease. And downhill, the HD encourages banging banked turns, effortless rock hops and jumps, railing looser flatter sweepers.

    Building the bike was pretty easy. The solid mount front derailleur was so easy, what an improvement! I can get all ten cogs in both front 9-speed rings with no rub and no suspension link interference.

    The 650b x 2.3 Pacenti tires clear easily. No rub, unlike the C which after 3 years have rubbed the stay finish away by the edges of the outer knobs about 1/16 inch deep. I measured my BB height at 13 3/4 inches, 1/8 inch higher that the C with the same wheels and tires and fork height. Looks like set up with 160mm travel front and rear it will have a 14 inch BB height with 650b, which seems appropriate for about 35% rear sag with good pedaling clearance.

    As the pictures show there’s plenty of clearance set to 140mm travel, at least ½ inch from the seat tube. I’ll post back here later after converting to 160mm travel, seat tube clearance might require shimming bottom travel a little.

    Did I say this already? The HD is awesome!!!

    I really like the color and finish work. It is so well engineered, and looks spectacular!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-hd-side.jpg  

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-hd-clearance1.jpg  

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-hd-clearance2-bottom.jpg  


  2. #2
    bikeboatbrewski
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    You know you are killing me by posting this. Must get my hands on an HD!!!

  3. #3
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    So that I fully understand...this is a 2011/2012 Mojo HD running in 140mm mode that has not had any modifications done to accommodate a 650b rear wheel. Please tell me this is the case. BTW…what is the weight of that bad boy?

  4. #4
    bikeboatbrewski
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    Interesting pick with the Vanilla RC on the rear, everyone seems to rave about the RS Monarch.

  5. #5
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    Thanks I had not seen your 1st post. Great info, I love my HD. I have also owned a mojo and a SL and wanted to do 650b on all these bikes. I am going foward on 650 for the HD . What build did you do on the wheels? What was the weight? Thanks for your feedback

  6. #6
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    I really like the suspension on the Mojo's but their short wheelbase has always put me off. HD would make a fun long travel xc/ trail bike though.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by motomikec View Post
    Thanks I had not seen your 1st post. Great info, I love my HD. I have also owned a mojo and a SL and wanted to do 650b on all these bikes. I am going foward on 650 for the HD . What build did you do on the wheels? What was the weight? Thanks for your feedback
    I build my own wheels. These are 650b Velocity P35 32 hole front rim and Blunt 32 hole rear, with DT Competition spokes 3X and Hadley hubs. Ghetto tubeless rim strips with Stan's sealant. Pacenti Neo-moto 650b x 2.3 front and rear.

    My Mojo C was 31 lbs last time I weighed it with all the same AM components I had swapped to the HD for 140mm travel. The HD frame is reported to be 1/2 lb heavier with the same shock. All the tubes are a little bigger than the C (and SL) and the swingarm stays are square for maximum stiffness for the weight.

    The HD with all the same parts doesn't feel any heavier than the C when picking it up, maybe a little. While riding I don't feel the 1/2 added pound, but really do feel the major stiffness improvement, also the shock rate feels better for coil, and the 1 degree slacker head angle at 140mm travel front and rear smooths the fork hits event more and adds stability at faster speeds. All together it gives a big improvement in my confidence in all difficult and faster situations.

    Took a second ride today. And dialed in my seat height. And added 1/4 turn preload, so till 3/4 turn less than the C liked with the same shock.

    I have a new Van-R 8.5 x 2.5 to take the HD to 160mm travel. I want to try it stock first, and then send to PUSH for the MX upgrade, for custom LSC/HSC and R. A new PUSH Monarch would be a littler nicer, by having a larger damper volume, but it would cost hundreds more $$ having all the same PUSH parts and custom tuning.


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I really like the suspension on the Mojo's but their short wheelbase has always put me off. HD would make a fun long travel xc/ trail bike though.
    Yes it is!

    Go a size larger? The HD is about an inch longer wheelbase than the SL in the same size.

  9. #9
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    One further point of clarification; is this the HD frame with the 142x12 rear spacing?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilether View Post
    One further point of clarification; is this the HD frame with the 142x12 rear spacing?
    My swingarm has 135mm hub axle spacing.

    I haven't seen the 142mm yet. It doesn't matter to me. The 135mm has effective dropout hollows for the hub ends and is very easy to mount the wheel with the QR Maxle 12mm axle.

    I hear the 142 has a carbon rear brake mount, which is probably more durable than the 135mm's forged magnesium if crashed bad. And of course the weight savings must be huge

    There's always going to be upgrades and tweaks to the Mojo's, as they keep improving the state of their art.

    This is simply a cheater bike!!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby View Post
    My swingarm has 135mm hub axle spacing.

    I haven't seen the 142mm yet. It doesn't matter to me. The 135mm has effective dropout hollows for the hub ends and is very easy to mount the wheel with the QR Maxle 12mm axle.

    I hear the 142 has a carbon rear brake mount, which is probably more durable than the 135mm's forged magnesium if crashed bad. And of course the weight savings must be huge

    There's always going to be upgrades and tweaks to the Mojo's, as they keep improving the state of their art.

    This is simply a cheater bike!!
    The only reason I ask is because I am curious if the 650b conversion will still work with the updated 142 spacing. As far as I know, the update to the 142 spacing has very little to do with performance and much more to do with the fact that Shimano adopted the 142 spacing and so it was seen as the next "standard." Anyway, I am very interested in throwing some 650b wheels on my Mojo HD 140 and am just curious if the rear will still work.

  12. #12
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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    nice!
    Last edited by Kirk Pacenti; 08-21-2011 at 04:43 PM.
    If you like my products and services tell everyone. If you don't, tell me - kirk(at)pacenticycledesign.com

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilether View Post
    The only reason I ask is because I am curious if the 650b conversion will still work with the updated 142 spacing. As far as I know, the update to the 142 spacing has very little to do with performance and much more to do with the fact that Shimano adopted the 142 spacing and so it was seen as the next "standard." Anyway, I am very interested in throwing some 650b wheels on my Mojo HD 140 and am just curious if the rear will still work.
    I expect the 142 will still clear as well as my 135 spacing since the HD is pleanty stiff, and made for bigger tires than the SL-R. But fitting is the true test. I also had the same concern. And was somewhat relieved I got the 135 spacing, after knowing it would clear 650b easily from fitting my wheel in a couple HD's previously.

  14. #14
    NedwannaB
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    That's easy, it's in.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Pacenti View Post
    Where are the pictures?
    Ok, I won't spill the beans, I'll let Derby chime in. (can't believe you don't recognize that infamous ridgeline silohuette....)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-hd-side.jpg  

    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  15. #15
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    The Sleeping Lady

    The view is from a Marin County Open Space section of legal! singletrack called Wagon Wheel, bordering Tamarancho Boy Scout Camp above Fairfax, CA.

    Looking from right to left, there's Bolinas, Rocky, Northside, and East Ridges of Mt. Tamalpias.

    The famed silhouette of the "Sleeping Lady", the sleeping Miwok Princess Tamalpias, for whom the mountain was named for, can be seen lying on her back facing east, from the peak down the East Peak and East ridge, with her hair flowing off the top to the west.

    And you can almost see the top of the Golden Gate Bridge and San Fransisco behind.

    Just off the picture to the right is Pine Mountain and San Geronimo Ridge and sections of the "Repack" DH (or a crazy steep climb) can be seen.

    We are very lucky to have so much great riding near a big city.




    ....
    Last edited by derby; 08-17-2011 at 07:52 AM. Reason: Sleeping Lady

  16. #16
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    The 142x12 rear spacing can easily clear a neo-Moto 650b 2.3 tire mounted on a stans flow rim (28 mm) rim width like the blunt. The clearance is exactly like derbys pics. Mine is built up. Pics coming. Thanks derby so we can now add to this new thread.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by red bank rider View Post
    The 142x12 rear spacing can easily clear a neo-Moto 650b 2.3 tire mounted on a stans flow rim (28 mm) rim width like the blunt. The clearance is exactly like derbys pics. Mine is built up. Pics coming. Thanks derby so we can now add to this new thread.
    Awesome! Now I have a winter project for myself.

  18. #18
    bikeboatbrewski
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    Ibis Mojo HD(on 650b) for the win!



  19. #19
    NedwannaB
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    Yah I was ooogling the MoJo's @ Yuba X while up in Dville a couple weeks ago. I may try to have them throw my wheelset on one of their rentals to use if I get back up there.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  20. #20
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    My Mojo HD140-650B

    So I'd like to introduce you to my HD140 with 650B Front and rear.

    First,the important 650B compatibility stuff:
    Rear Wheel is Stans Flow with 28mm rim width and Stans3.3 HD hub
    Rear tire showing is the Pacenti Neo Moto 2.3 width
    The rear shock fully deflated and compressed offers absolutely no cable or seat tube rub
    The rear is the new 142X12 axle
    Frame size is large

    The other stuff:
    Jagwire red cables
    Cane Creek 110 Headset-red (upgrade with bike frame)
    XT Direct Mount FD 9spd
    Most every other component came straight off my BMC Trailfox B6er:
    White Brothers 650B fork 140mm travel and 20mm thru axle (retails as 130mm but measures 140mm)
    Velocity Blunt Front Wheel with NeoMoto 2.3 tire
    XT Rear Derailleur 9spd
    SLX Triple Crank 9spd
    SLX Shifters 9spd
    Sram PG980 cassette
    Avid Juicy 5 Brakes
    Truvativ Stylo T2 75 mm stem (trying out 75mm length for now)
    Easton Monkeybar EA70
    Ritchey Carbon Seatpost
    Velo Pronto Saddle
    Odi grips

    Not the lightest components from my old bike for sure.Bike weighs 30.0 lbs on my scale with pedals. As time goes on I'll upgrade, and hopefully get the bike down to 27-28lbs. I just wanted to switch over as many of my components as possible.

    IMO, this is the ultimate 650B full suspension bike being able to handle any 650B rear wheel or tire that is out there right now. Thanks Ibis, and Lou at BriarCliff Bikeworks for offering a bike for us 650Bers capable of accommodating our wildest dreams!

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-img_4684.jpg

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-img_4682.jpg

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-img_4679r.jpg

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-img_4681r.jpg

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-img_4685.jpg



    Had my first ride today at Hartshorne today. seems to climb nearly identical to my 29er steel hardtail. Too soon to tell...I'll give a full ride report soon.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-img_4683.jpg  

    Last edited by red bank rider; 08-20-2011 at 04:52 PM.

  21. #21
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    See linked thread, Hans says that the new frames with the direct mount FD have an extra 4 mm of clearance
    This post is reffering to a standard 26" wheel of course

    I'd like to see this thread resurrected. I am in the market for a faster and higher volume rear tire (just because) and am wondering what my options are. I'm thinking Nobby Nic's or Trail Kings or Ardent and so on....
    What sizes fit the HD without rubbing on bottom out? I bottom my RP23 out a few times per ride and would hate to have my tire contact my frame.
    I'm currently running a 2.35 MAXXIS High Roller on a Stan's Flow Rim in the rear with (no surprise here) no rub.

    Thanks in advance for help !!
    Maximum tire diameter diameter = 685mm. For reference WTB Mutano Raptor 2.4 = 675mm

    HDs with the drirect mount FD have another 4mm or so clearance.

    As far as we know this clears most any tire you might want to run on it.


    H
    Last edited by Bones2; 08-20-2011 at 07:40 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by red bank rider View Post
    So I'd like to introduce you to my HD140 with 650B Front and rear.

    Had my first ride today at Hartshorne today. seems to climb nearly identical to my 29er steel hardtail. Too soon to tell...I'll give a full ride report soon.
    Love the P green . That's the color I would get as well.

    How do you like the rear suspension compared to the Trailfox. I rode a earlier Trailfox and it was quite active on the small stuff and quite progressive towards the end of the stroke. I've heard the mojo is tighter on the small stuff but goes deep on the big stuff?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    How do you like the rear suspension compared to the Trailfox. I rode a earlier Trailfox and it was quite active on the small stuff and quite progressive towards the end of the stroke. I've heard the mojo is tighter on the small stuff but goes deep on the big stuff?
    I had an 07 TF with what they called an Advanced pivot system(APS)...it was their version of a VPP as far as i could tell. it was great/active on the small stuff(seated) and okay on the large. The only reason it was stiff at the end was that I had to ramp up shock pressure to minimize pedal bob when standing. My big issue is it robbed a lot of my power uphill, and even the lockout still had some energy sapping shock movement. Probably could have remedied this by replacing the shock with an RP23 platform, but I also wanted carbon, slacker head angle, and full 650B = MojoHD140!
    Initial HD settings indicate the rear is in the active area thru the small as well as the bigger stuff (set at 90% of total weight). TBD how the suspension climbs for me.

  24. #24
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    Spectacular!

    I had to put my sunglasses on! And great to see the 142mm wide swingarm clears 650b easily as the 135mm.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by red bank rider View Post
    So I'd like to introduce you to my HD140 with 650B Front and rear.

    First,the important 650B compatibility stuff:
    Rear Wheel is Stans Flow with 28mm rim width and Stans3.3 HD hub
    Rear tire showing is the Pacenti Neo Moto 2.3 width
    The rear shock fully deflated and compressed offers absolutely no cable or seat tube rub
    The rear is the new 142X12 axle
    Frame size is large

    The other stuff:
    Jagwire red cables
    Cane Creek 110 Headset-red (upgrade with bike frame)
    XT Direct Mount FD 9spd
    Most every other component came straight off my BMC Trailfox B6er:
    White Brothers 650B fork 140mm travel and 20mm thru axle (retails as 130mm but measures 140mm)
    Velocity Blunt Front Wheel with NeoMoto 2.3 tire
    XT Rear Derailleur 9spd
    SLX Triple Crank 9spd
    SLX Shifters 9spd
    Sram PG980 cassette
    Avid Juicy 5 Brakes
    Truvativ Stylo T2 75 mm stem (trying out 75mm length for now)
    Easton Monkeybar EA70
    Ritchey Carbon Seatpost
    Velo Pronto Saddle
    Odi grips

    Not the lightest components from my old bike for sure.Bike weighs 30.0 lbs on my scale with pedals. As time goes on I'll upgrade, and hopefully get the bike down to 27-28lbs. I just wanted to switch over as many of my components as possible.

    IMO, this is the ultimate 650B full suspension bike being able to handle any 650B rear wheel or tire that is out there right now. Thanks Ibis, and Lou at BriarCliff Bikeworks for offering a bike for us 650Bers capable of accommodating our wildest dreams!

    Had my first ride today at Hartshorne today. seems to climb nearly identical to my 29er steel hardtail. Too soon to tell...I'll give a full ride report soon.
    What's the weight of that bad boy? Seriously looking to give the 650b Mojo HD a try. When is the full review?

  26. #26
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    650B HD-160 ... very Heavy Duty!



    Today I rode the HD with a Fox Van-R, 8.5x2.5 inches, making 160mm travel, with the Lyrik coil u-turn fork wound up to it’s maximum 160mm travel.

    Before fitting a coil I fixed it to the bike and compressed with all my weight to try to bottom travel.

    The attached picture shows there is only about 3 or 4 mm clearance. I put 3 layers of tape on the seat tube and am carrying shims, just in case it does rub. So far with limited but strong riding, the tire has not scraped the tape.

    With 650b wheels and 160mm travel, the top travel BB height measured 14 1/8 inches. This is 3/8 inch higher than the 13 3/4 inches measured when set up as 140mm travel. Sag lowers the BB height to just under 12 inches, ideal for good pedal clearance and low enough for stability.

    I rode the same familiar “test” ride area. 160mm travel is far too much for the Tamarancho trail, but it sure is fun!. 140mm with 650b wheels are also too much except for one rocky area for about ¼ mile. It sure is sweet rolling rocky trail on 650b.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-hd-160-side.jpg  

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-hd-160-clearance1.jpg  


  27. #27
    bikeboatbrewski
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    OMG!

    Looks like your neo moto is a bit worn down. Helps with clearance.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottybinwv View Post
    OMG!

    Looks like your neo moto is a bit worn down. Helps with clearance.
    Yes, although over the years of using these tires I've noticed the casing stretches and the tire "grows" in radius as much as the tread wears down.

    I'm mounting up some new Neo-Motos this week and will replace that clearance picture.

    Few trails in my area require great tire traction. So I try to get as much wear out of these expensive tires, and the Neo-Moto's do live long and perform very well until nearly this worn.

    Also pressing my weight to crush the bottom bumper isn't nearly as much force as landing a jump on an under sprung shock. I'll be looking for rub marks on the 3 layers of tape I put there for temporary protection. I do still expect it will rub when bottomed hard and will need a small bottom travel shock shim.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby View Post
    Yes, although over the years of using these tires I've noticed the casing stretches and the tire "grows" in radius as much as the tread wears down.

    I'm mounting up some new Neo-Motos this week and will replace that clearance picture.

    Few trails in my area require great tire traction. So I try to get as much wear out of these expensive tires, and the Neo-Moto's do live long and perform very well until nearly this worn.

    Also pressing my weight to crush the bottom bumper isn't nearly as much force as landing a jump on an under sprung shock. I'll be looking for rub marks on the 3 layers of tape I put there for temporary protection. I do still expect it will rub when bottomed hard and will need a small bottom travel shock shim.
    Update???

  30. #30
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    New Neo's will brush, if you can slam bottom out

    With coil removed from the shock and all my weight on the seat crushing the stock Van-R rubber bottom bumper, new Neo-Moto 2.3's just barely rubs my 2011 HD seat tube occasionally on irregularly taller knobs.. About as close as 32mm stanchion Fox fork with spring removed. Usable, but could scratch the finish when slamming a hash bottom out landing big drops when muddy.

    An earlier year HD than my 2011 version, without the concave seat tube giving 4mm added tire clearance, probably needs a 1/8 inch shock travel shim for no possibility of rubbing a 650b.

    Ibis is correct, to have more than 1/4 inch seat tube clearance, a 675mm diameter tire is the maximum tire diameter (particularly for the first HD production series). The Neo-moto 2.3 is 702mm.

    That said, I doubt if I will be able to bottom my 2011 HD tire to rub the seat tube without making a huge mistake, such as the rear suspension landing a 6 foot drop onto a sharp rock. I just tried on a 4 foot drop to transition landing, the biggest jump I'm familiar with (so far!), and no rub, not even the derailleur cable.

    I'm not worried about clearance with this '11 HD, having the added concave seat tube clearance. My coil is very light, 350# with 2 - 3 turns preload for about 32% sag under a 200+ lb rider, I can't go any lighter in coil without using too much preload. Most riders my weight would ride 400# to 450# I would guess by comparing how much firmer in coil weight they say they use in the same fork. For example, I'm using the Soft coil in my Lyrik 160 u-turn for 25% static sag (40mm, about 1.5 inches), most other riders near my body weight post up that they use the standard medium coil, or firm, even extra firm, I guess they all huck much larger than I ever will and prefer less than 25% fork sag (...or are much heavier than they say )

    Normally I swap the front Neo-moto to the rear when the rear wears too much for good handling and put the new tire on the front. To give a little more traction bias to the front tire, and easier rolling rear after the sharp edges are worn away while used as a front tire.. So that may give a little more clearance too.

    I've put tape on the seat tube, at least until I'm totally sure I won't be able to bottom hard and rub when riding much more difficult than my local rides. And am carrying a few hand made thin plastic split shims to slip onto the shock shaft to limit travel slighlty if I ever do rub the protective tape.

    I'm hoping to get to Northstar this weekend, and be better be able to tune the suspension on more frequent jumps and faster runs.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby View Post
    An earlier year HD than my 2011 version, without the concave seat tube giving 4mm added tire clearance, probably needs a 1/8 inch shock travel shim for no possibility of rubbing a 650b.
    Had a fantastic Labor Day weekend riding the HD 650b at Mammoth Mountain for about 14 hours or so.

    1/8th of an inch is about right for my 2010 (?) HD. Less than that would cause a cringe-inducing buzz on the FD cable and seattube when landing hard. At its current setting, it wasn't an issue at all.

  32. #32
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    derby,

    That's fantastic news!! Please post some pics after Northstar. Looks like I can finally pull the trigger on a new HD. SWEET.

  33. #33
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    Northstar ... Slammed it, and rubbed the tape on the seat tube

    Quote Originally Posted by dustyman View Post
    derby,

    That's fantastic news!! Please post some pics after Northstar. Looks like I can finally pull the trigger on a new HD. SWEET.
    I got to Northstar yesterday.

    I was able to bottom travel at least once and could see that the new Neo-moto did lightly scrape the surface of the thee layers of tape I had put on the seat tube. So I added three very thin hand cut shims to the shock shaft under the coils rubber bumper, no more than 1.5mm thick in total. I'll put some fresh tape on and see if it rubs any more.

    The only suspension tuning for Northstar was softening rebound adjusters 1 click both front and rear for the fast and extremely chopped up trail in most places, and to take out a half turn preload, to sag the rear more for a better downhill balance.

    I'm still sore in a couple places. On my third run of the day, second on Flameout, just beginning to get up to speed, I washed the front tire in the middle of a slower speed very deep dusty nearly flat 90 degree turn about half way down Flameout, a single-black-diamond run, and my favorite run for a full suspension trail bike. I must have side-rolled a hidden loose rock trail-braking into the middle under the deep dusty turn. A few bloody scraps and bumps, nothing serious, it could have been much worse. Note to self - get forearm and lower leg pads and a full face helmet. Northstar is treacherous as usual, the rocks protrude more and the dust is deeper than ever this year with no real rain this summer.

    If the guy is reading this, I want to thank one full faced DH bike rider who was first to ride by and stop and questioned me twice if I was OK.

    After assessing my damages to be minor, and cleaning the scraps somewhat and re-aligning a brake lever, I road out to the bottom, where the mobile medic taped me up so I was able to continue riding. I made two more runs down Flameout connecting to Pho-Dog with out using the fireroad shortcut. But my left palm of my thumb was quite sore from the crash and hurt on every bump. So I quit a few runs before I would have liked. I was favoring my left hand and couldn't brake as hard as I wanted (I'm a left handed rear brake'r), and was afraid I'd make a mistake from favoring that hand. I was very sore last night, and didn't think I would ride today.

    But recovered much better than I expected. So took a 4.5 hour non-stop XC ride today, about 25 miles and more than 3500 vertical feet climbing and downhill, ending with the Missing Link and Western States trails. My thumb hurt on the downhills, but otherwise a strong ride, very rocky and dusty but not so bad as Northstar, finishing just before the thunder showers really came down for a good soak in Squaw Valley.

  34. #34
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    Very encouraging news! Thanks for all your beta. Hope your hand heals ups fast.

    Now if I can only sell my Cdale moto I could get a Mojo frame started.

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    BB height change from 140 to 160 swap

    So, I'm wondering whether swapping the rear end from 140 to 160 produces a change in BB height? I've read conflicting info. Some riders say they like the lower bb in the 140 setup, but Scot & gang say that the 140 limbo chips position the 200mm shock so that the starting position of the rear wheel is the same as in 160 mode, with extra seat tube clearance at bottom out... that sounds to me like the unweighted bb height would be the same in either mode if the fork is unchanged..... Can anybody comment? Derby, do you think that the bb height difference you've measured is purely from the change in fork? or does the limbo/shock swap alone also affect BB height?

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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    So, I'm wondering whether swapping the rear end from 140 to 160 produces a change in BB height? I've read conflicting info. Some riders say they like the lower bb in the 140 setup, but Scot & gang say that the 140 limbo chips position the 200mm shock so that the starting position of the rear wheel is the same as in 160 mode, with extra seat tube clearance at bottom out... that sounds to me like the unweighted bb height would be the same in either mode if the fork is unchanged..... Can anybody comment? Derby, do you think that the bb height difference you've measured is purely from the change in fork? or does the limbo/shock swap alone also affect BB height?
    The 8.5 x 2.5 inch shock positions the swingarm mount slightly more rearward at topout, less than 1/8 inch closer to the seat tube. I'd estimate from the rear alone, the topped out suspension BB height is less than 5/16th inch, ~8mm higher. Most of the BB height increase is from the 20mm taller fork if using the same adjustable travel fork like I had. (Consider my Lyrik u-turn at 140mm travel is 10mm greater a2c than a 140mm Revelation or 140/32 Vanilla RLC. Going from a 140/32 to a 160/35 or 160/36 fork is 30mm greater a2c).

    Using the same Lyrik u-turn fork raised 20mm, with 650b wheels and 160mm travel "limbo chips" and longer shock, the top travel BB height measured 14 1/8 inches. This is 3/8 inch higher than the 13 3/4 inches measured when set up as 140mm with Lyrik at 140mm travel. Sag lowers the BB height to just under 12 inches, ideal for good pedal clearance and low enough for stability.

    I just swapped back to 140mm travel. And it feels lower, the seat tube is steeper and the seat nearly as high as the slacker angle at 160mm travel while sagged and riding. The overall feel is lower center of weight, firmer, quicker handling and less wallow, climbing feels easier, descending not as forgiving.

    In 160mm rear travel I had lowered my fork to 150mm travel for tight trail riding locally. The 140mm set up seem much firmer front and rear, with more weight shifted forward, but does tight trail better, and seems quicker accelerating.

    The Lyrik u-turn is so useful for fine tuning handling when experimenting with 650b conversion on these 140mm to 160mm travel bikes.

  37. #37
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    Hi Derby. Thanks, great info. I was starting to wonder why one would even bother dropping to 140mm for a 650 conversion if the bb height is unchanged, but now I know that's not the case. Who knows when it will happen, but HD140 650b is still in my sites. Your description sounds like just the ticket. Our trails are rough and steep enough to use 160, but so tight and with lots of punchy technical climbs that you pay a price for it. In the meantime, the SL w/ 650b f & r is working better than it ever has. Thanks for the PM, btw....you're right, I need to post a review on the current setup.... it's MONEY.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by red bank rider View Post
    So I'd like to introduce you to my HD140 with 650B Front and rear.

    First,the important 650B compatibility stuff:
    Rear Wheel is Stans Flow with 28mm rim width and Stans3.3 HD hub
    Rear tire showing is the Pacenti Neo Moto 2.3 width
    Do you know the weight of your wheelset? Very interested to know how it compares to the 26" version of these stans wheels.

  39. #39
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    Sorry - I did not weigh them. My front is a Blunt which I believe is 450g and my rear is a flow which I read is 500g. The 2.3 NeoMotos weigh 750g.
    HTH

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    Quote Originally Posted by red bank rider View Post
    Sorry - I did not weigh them. My front is a Blunt which I believe is 450g and my rear is a flow which I read is 500g. The 2.3 NeoMotos weigh 750g.
    HTH
    cool, thanks. stans wheel building site is incomplete, but it appears the weight penalty for the rims and spokes is not that large.

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    Such a great idea! Makes me want a Mojo so badly. Out of curiousity, how do you like the pedalling with a coil shock? standing and seated? My thought is that a dw link is perfect for a coil and wonder why I don't see more bikes with this linkage with coil shocks.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Might be a great bike. However, at 30 lbs it weighs 3 pounds more than my aluminum Ventana. So, if you spend thousands on newer, lighter parts and carbon bits, it might weigh 27 or 28? I thought the weight was a big selling factor for these?
    I think there are too many component variables between your build or my build when it comes to parts, wheels, tires, etc.

    The proper comparison is to compare frame weights with shock:
    Mojo HD140 w/ RP23 shock: 6.4 lbs
    Ventana El Bastardo w/RP23 shock: 6.4 lbs <-- I assume the bastardo since it's 650b with 5" of travel. Link Reference

    So my components on the Ventana frame would equal 30 lbs, or your components on the carbon HD140 frame would equal 27lbs.
    The weight is a BIG selling factor for the mojo SL. For the Mojo HD, it's about strength per unit weight. Realize that the HD can be built for trail or downhill, where a majority of owners are building it for downhill use. To build an aluminum equivalent (strength wise), you would have to use a much larger/heavier frame like the El Terremoto.

    So you can look at my Mojo HD140-650 as a heavy duty trail/AM bike where my primary goal was 650B wheels, slacker HA and the DW-link with carbon as the added bonus!
    Last edited by red bank rider; 10-24-2011 at 11:29 AM.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    I thought the weight was a big selling factor for these?
    The HD selling point is more about high strength and rigidity at a normal weight than a lightweight selling point. The SL and SLR are more aimed at light weight.

    And the two frames are actually the same price.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by red bank rider View Post
    I think there are too many component variables between your build or my build when it comes to parts, wheels, tires, etc.

    The proper comparison is to compare frame weights with shock:
    Mojo HD140 w/ RP23 shock: 6.4 lbs
    Ventana El Bastardo w/RP23 shock: 6.4 lbs <-- I assume the bastardo since it's 650b with 5" of travel. Link Reference

    So my components on the Ventana frame would equal 30 lbs, or your components on the carbon HD140 frame would equal 27lbs.
    The weight is a BIG selling factor for the mojo SL. For the Mojo HD, it's about strength per unit weight. Realize that the HD can be built for trail or downhill, where a majority of owners are building it for downhill use. To build an aluminum equivalent (strength wise), you would have to use a much larger/heavier frame like the El Terremoto.

    So you can look at my Mojo HD140-650 as a heavy duty trail/AM bike where my primary goal was 650B wheels, slacker HA and the DW-link with carbon as the added bonus!
    Great explanation. When I saw the weight of 2 Mojo HD's over 30lbs I thought to myself that's to much weight for so pricey a frame...but now it makes a bit more sense and I see you could build one up under 30lbs if you want. Nice to know.

    Another question....Do any of the different Mojo frames have more 650B clearance than the other. Some of those pics don't give me a very warm fuzzy feeling they are soooo close.
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  45. #45
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    Pros and cons - what am I missing?

    So, I'm 650b curious, and have been thinking seriously about taking the plunge with my new mojo HD. But I need to choose - can't buy two wheelsets of the quality I'd like just at the moment. My buddies are laughing at me for thinking about this, so I wanted to try and lay out what I'm thinking. I've read a lot about this over the years, but never really tried to synthesize it all in one place. Here is an attempt, and I would appreciate comments.

    Pro:
    - smoother ride, easier rolling over rough
    - increased cornering stickyness (for me this is the biggest appeal, the ability to lay it over farther and faster in the corners would be worth a lot to me)
    - much of the big-wheel advantages without big-wheel downsides of tricky geometry, big weight gain, slower acceleration, sluggish handling, etc.
    - Is there any actual efficiency gain?
    - ability to get some big wheel goodness at my height (5'7")
    - bigger wheels for mtb makes intuitive sense to me, but not sold on 29ers for my riding style
    - the tires available are well-regarded (but limited, see below)

    Con:
    - on HD, limited to 2.3 inch tires by clearance which are said to be small for their stated volume (I like to run a bit higher volume, say 2.35-2.4's)
    - limited tire choices (even though the Pacenti's are well regarded, this could be a big negative!)
    - weight gain of, say, 2-300 g rotating mass for equivalent wheels and equivalent volume tires over 26" ?
    - poor clearance for muddy riding
    - might not be really necessary, given the sweetness of the HD suspension.
    - Where the 'travel increasing' effects of the larger wheelsize would be most desirable (e.g. shuttling and lift-served riding), the smaller volume tires would kind of hurt.
    - increased BB height (would have to see how this felt in real life, but my own bias is to worry less about pedal strikes in favor of the lower center of gravity).
    - Frame not designed around wheelsize, so maybe some other compromises here in terms of geometry (?)
    - need to fiddle with the shock to limit travel

    Unanswered questions:
    - how does 650b wheelsize affect things like handling quickness, manualing and wheelieing, etc. on the HD? I like to throw the bike around and ride playfully and aggressively. Not that I'm particularly aggro, but I have the most fun when working the trail.

    I was pretty much sold on the concept but making this list makes me think the size might not be for me until they design a similar bike around it. I would appreciate any thoughts on how I've laid this out. What have I forgotten, assumed falsely, emphasized poorly, etc? I'll edit this list in response, and would really appreciate any input.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Another question....Do any of the different Mojo frames have more 650B clearance than the other. Some of those pics don't give me a very warm fuzzy feeling they are soooo close.
    I'll take a stab at this. In order of most 650B clearance:
    Ripley!
    Mojo HD140 (rear doesn't use full 160mm of travel, so no bottoming)
    Mojo HD
    Mojo SL
    Mojo SL-R (nearly impossible)

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemikemike View Post
    So, I'm 650b curious, and have been thinking seriously about taking the plunge with my new mojo HD. But I need to choose - can't buy two wheelsets of the quality I'd like just at the moment. My buddies are laughing at me for thinking about this, so I wanted to try and lay out what I'm thinking. I've read a lot about this over the years, but never really tried to synthesize it all in one place. Here is an attempt, and I would appreciate comments.

    Pro:
    - smoother ride, easier rolling over rough
    - increased cornering stickyness (for me this is the biggest appeal, the ability to lay it over farther and faster in the corners would be worth a lot to me)
    - much of the big-wheel advantages without big-wheel downsides of tricky geometry, big weight gain, slower acceleration, sluggish handling, etc.
    - Is there any actual efficiency gain?
    - ability to get some big wheel goodness at my height (5'7")
    - bigger wheels for mtb makes intuitive sense to me, but not sold on 29ers for my riding style
    - the tires available are well-regarded (but limited, see below)

    Con:
    - on HD, limited to 2.3 inch tires by clearance which are said to be small for their stated volume (I like to run a bit higher volume, say 2.35-2.4's)
    - limited tire choices (even though the Pacenti's are well regarded, this could be a big negative!)
    - weight gain of, say, 2-300 g rotating mass for equivalent wheels and equivalent volume tires over 26" ?
    - poor clearance for muddy riding
    - might not be really necessary, given the sweetness of the HD suspension.
    - Where the 'travel increasing' effects of the larger wheelsize would be most desirable (e.g. shuttling and lift-served riding), the smaller volume tires would kind of hurt.
    - increased BB height (would have to see how this felt in real life, but my own bias is to worry less about pedal strikes in favor of the lower center of gravity).
    - Frame not designed around wheelsize, so maybe some other compromises here in terms of geometry (?)
    - need to fiddle with the shock to limit travel

    Unanswered questions:
    - how does 650b wheelsize affect things like handling quickness, manualing and wheelieing, etc. on the HD? I like to throw the bike around and ride playfully and aggressively. Not that I'm particularly aggro, but I have the most fun when working the trail.

    I was pretty much sold on the concept but making this list makes me think the size might not be for me until they design a similar bike around it. I would appreciate any thoughts on how I've laid this out. What have I forgotten, assumed falsely, emphasized poorly, etc? I'll edit this list in response, and would really appreciate any input.
    I would always have 26" and 650B. I prefer the 650B at head angles of about 69 deg for singletrack work.Can be a bit sluggish at slacker angles but if you've got open fast trails 650b is great for carving corners. On my 67 degree bikes I prefer 26" on single track. I don't dislike the 650b but my 26" wheels are built light and it feels crisp. With a bike like a mojo that has the potential to be built light it would be a shame to loose that fresh flickability . Having the option of putting a 650b on the front tones it down but carving ability increases, nearly up there with a 29er. So you have the potential to have two bike styles in one . 29er and 26er.

    On AM stuff , 650b for both is great. Definately more stability in 650B and if you run 2.3 neo moto's, very good cornering traction. I've used all sorts of tires and you wont loose much against any 26" tire in cornering traction on a 2.3 Neo and much speed or any traction on the neo 2.1 against any 26 or 29er trail tire.

    On the back I've used both 26 and 650B. Personally I can't feel much difference, may be a slight lift in speed on the 650B on the way down. So I would build up a 26" set with an extra 650B front. I enjoy swapping between both. Just as I like to swap between 29er race bike and 26" trail/AM bike.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 10-25-2011 at 12:48 AM.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by red bank rider View Post
    I'll take a stab at this. In order of most 650B clearance:
    Ripley!
    Mojo HD140 (rear doesn't use full 160mm of travel, so no bottoming)
    Mojo HD
    Mojo SL
    Mojo SL-R (nearly impossible)
    So to be totally clear....HD 140 has no issues and the HD (160mm) will rub at full bottom out without spacers.

    red bank rider...could you snap a pic of the tire/seat tube area on your HD140 at full bottom out at some point?

    I have no need for the 160mm travel and I have the same Stans Flows with the Neo Moto 2.3 tires. 150mm fork I'm thinking with a bit extra sag would be sweet.
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    So to be totally clear....HD 140 has no issues and the HD (160mm) will rub at full bottom out without spacers.

    red bank rider...could you snap a pic of the tire/seat tube area on your HD140 at full bottom out at some point?

    I have no need for the 160mm travel and I have the same Stans Flows with the Neo Moto 2.3 tires. 150mm fork I'm thinking with a bit extra sag would be sweet.
    trust me...you don't need a pic. Full bottom out RP23 shock of an HD140 with a 650B 2.3 NeoMoto tire has LOADs of clearance. You can fit your fist in the amount of room that is left.

  50. #50
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    Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemikemike View Post
    So, I'm 650b curious, and have been thinking seriously about taking the plunge with my new mojo HD. But I need to choose - can't buy two wheelsets of the quality I'd like just at the moment. My buddies are laughing at me for thinking about this, so I wanted to try and lay out what I'm thinking. I've read a lot about this over the years, but never really tried to synthesize it all in one place. Here is an attempt, and I would appreciate comments.

    Pro:
    - smoother ride, easier rolling over rough
    - increased cornering stickyness (for me this is the biggest appeal, the ability to lay it over farther and faster in the corners would be worth a lot to me)
    - much of the big-wheel advantages without big-wheel downsides of tricky geometry, big weight gain, slower acceleration, sluggish handling, etc.
    - Is there any actual efficiency gain?
    - ability to get some big wheel goodness at my height (5'7")
    - bigger wheels for mtb makes intuitive sense to me, but not sold on 29ers for my riding style
    - the tires available are well-regarded (but limited, see below)

    Con:
    - on HD, limited to 2.3 inch tires by clearance which are said to be small for their stated volume (I like to run a bit higher volume, say 2.35-2.4's)
    - limited tire choices (even though the Pacenti's are well regarded, this could be a big negative!)
    - weight gain of, say, 2-300 g rotating mass for equivalent wheels and equivalent volume tires over 26" ?
    - poor clearance for muddy riding
    - might not be really necessary, given the sweetness of the HD suspension.
    - Where the 'travel increasing' effects of the larger wheelsize would be most desirable (e.g. shuttling and lift-served riding), the smaller volume tires would kind of hurt.
    - increased BB height (would have to see how this felt in real life, but my own bias is to worry less about pedal strikes in favor of the lower center of gravity).
    - Frame not designed around wheelsize, so maybe some other compromises here in terms of geometry (?)
    - need to fiddle with the shock to limit travel

    Unanswered questions:
    - how does 650b wheelsize affect things like handling quickness, manualing and wheelieing, etc. on the HD? I like to throw the bike around and ride playfully and aggressively. Not that I'm particularly aggro, but I have the most fun when working the trail.

    I was pretty much sold on the concept but making this list makes me think the size might not be for me until they design a similar bike around it. I would appreciate any thoughts on how I've laid this out. What have I forgotten, assumed falsely, emphasized poorly, etc? I'll edit this list in response, and would really appreciate any input.
    You have covered the "parts" very well.

    For me 650b is much greater than the parts or numbers would indicate. Using deep sag the Mojo HD 160 and 140 likes, I like the increased pedal clearance for the rocky trails I like most.

    There are 26" tires that will out corner the best 650b, using more sticky rubber and more aggressive knobs, Minions are a good example.

    If you are curious about 650b, you'd probably like the difference. The smoothness improvement is felt more in small bump terrain. For flowy trails. Rider technique is a much bigger factor when the bumps are big and gnarly.

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    derby, gvs_nz:

    Thanks for the thoughts, that's very useful. Glad to hear I've got a decent handle on it, conceptually anyhow.

    Given this, I'm going to set the HD up 26 to start. From what i'm hearing here, it sounds like I definitely want the option of 26 regardless since this bike is primarily for rougher more aggressive riding.

    Derby, I hear you about the whole > sum of the parts. If I can, I'll try to borrow a 650b wheel or two at some point and see how it feels to me. It seems like this needs to be experienced to be appreciated. I remain very interested in the size, and I expect that I will be inspired to mix it up a bit when I have the coin.

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    Just a footnote. I do notice a lift in speed using 650B on the rear of my hard tail even if I don't on FS bikes.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Just a footnote. I do notice a lift in speed using 650B on the rear of my hard tail even if I don't on FS bikes.
    I noticed a small improvement in climbing traction as well, going from a 26x2.3 to a 650x2.1 in a familiar tread.... I was mildly bummed about being limited to the skinnier tire on my Mojo SL, but after riding it I think it really is the better choice for 90% of my riding anyway.... faster rolling as well. On a related note, I was surprised at how much stiffer a Hadley/Flow/650b rear wheel was vs a Saint/Duster/26".... rims are the same width and both welded, but the Flow is quite a bit burlier obviously.

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    Were you running your front shock at 140 or 150?

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemikemike View Post
    Derby, I hear you about the whole > sum of the parts. If I can, I'll try to borrow a 650b wheel or two at some point and see how it feels to me. It seems like this needs to be experienced to be appreciated. I remain very interested in the size, and I expect that I will be inspired to mix it up a bit when I have the coin.
    There will be a Santa Cruz Tallboy LT 140mm in february I think. Perhaps check this one. Cedric Gacia really like the original tallboy in Rampage race. So why not you with 140mm?

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    There will be a Santa Cruz Tallboy LT 140mm in february I think. So why not you with 140mm?
    Good idea. Throw some 650b wheels on it and an angleset to make it a low, slack and nimble trail ripper.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by srbeck View Post
    Were you running your front shock at 140 or 150?
    Not sure if that's directed at me, but if so, I'm running a Pushed '09 Revelation at 140mm.

    I also have a 2010 150 Rev that was, in terms of geometry and handling:
    great w/ 26" f&r
    slack and fun downwill w/ 650b f & 26 rear, but would just barely clear a racing ralph which is not a good tire for my trails
    and I haven't tried it with 650b f&r because I'm already at about as high a BB as I want, and I'd have to file out the arch to fit a decent front tire.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover View Post
    Good idea. Throw some 650b wheels on it and an angleset to make it a low, slack and nimble trail ripper.
    Okay but there are no 4" or wider tyres and only those could match 29er ones in height. Just like 3" Gazzalodi with 2,3" Neo moto and think about the weight.... Check 26" Surly 4,75" they are as tall as 29er ones, but the weight...

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    Okay but there are no 4" or wider tyres and only those could match 29er ones in height....
    Okay, but that was my point.
    Extreme stationary biker.

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    Anyone running a 650 in the front only? i.e. 650/26".
    Grammar and spelling errors are complementary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schwing_ding View Post
    Anyone running a 650 in the front only? i.e. 650/26".
    I think just about everybody who's tried it, at least on Mojos, started out that way because it's such a simple no-brainer upgrade....and it also pays the biggest dividends.

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    I did 650b/26 combo at first on my trusty old Mojo C. It raises the fork and front of frame 1/2 inch. At first felt unbalanced until I lowered the bars 1/2 inch and bumped my seat forward about 1/4 inch and up slightly to return to my familiar fit and balance over the pedals and wheels.

    With 650b/26 combo handling FEELS like it's 1 degree slacker in cornering, stability, and slow ride speed wheel flop.

    I tried my previous 26" high volume 2.4 inch front wheel once again to be sure 650b was worth it, and the 26" front wheel felt harsh in comparison to the 650bx2.3 front. The 650b could run a couple pounds lower tire pressure with the same width rim as my 26" rim.

    6 month's later added to 650b in the rear to raise the Mojo's very low BB up to 13.5 with a 140mm travel fork for the rocky trails I like the most, also to improve rolling ease further, and regain most of the quicker handing geometry.

    I never put 26" wheels back on the Mojo C.

    And later, last summer, swapped the 650b wheels and Lyrik u-turn fork from my Mojo C to a new HD frame.

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    Been on 29ers since '07, and have been looking for a big bike to compliment the 29er HT. Rough terrain here in AZ, so have been considering two yet-to-be-out bigger travel 29ers...Ripley and SB-95. After having my fork in the shop for a bit, I got tired of running the 29er fully rigid. Decided to demo a Mojo HD setup 160mm F & R. My pre-conceived notions (mostly derived from my memory of the last 4" and 5" 26ers I owned) were nearly smashed to bits with this bike. First time on a DW bike, and it more than offset traction yet remained very efficient for a 6+" bike. The surprise was how well the front end tracked. Great lateral traction, braking traction, off camber traction, and rollin with the slack angles was simply amazing. I don't remember my 26ers rolling in as well as a 29er, and remember them being hung up easier. The geo difference, combined with the 160mm fork erased that difference and then some.

    It make me think a few things. First - do I want a big travel 29er, or a bigger travel 26er like the Mojo HD? Second - if the MOJO HD was so good, a bigger travel (slacker than average 29er) could be off the charts. Third - what if you take the HD and add the 650b up front? Hence my earlier question here.

    The only negative I came away with was fatigue. After 3x rides of about 3 hours each, I was worked over/tired. It usually takes me 5 hours to get this way with my 29er HT. Am I wasting efficiency riding it a little bit like a HT instead of a fully? Likely some. Is there a big difference in weight - 5.5 lbs. is the answer so yeah. Was I having fun, thus pushing things harder? Perhaps.

    Really just rambling on a bit. My entire perspective just shifted, and it is taking me time to make sense of it all.
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    What trails in AZ are you riding? I have a Turner Sultan with 140mm upfront and 68.5 HA. I also have a Ibis Mojo SL with 150mm upfront and 650b front wheel. They are both really great bikes for AZ. For trails like Javelina, Hawes, and K-trail I think the 29er is a better fit. For National, Geronimo, & Mormon I think the Mojo is a better fit.

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    I was in the same boat looking at a longer travel 29er to compliment my Pivot 429 which has 100mm in back and a 120mm Reba fork. I demoed an Ibis HD and "that's all she wrote". I put a 2.35 Navegal 650b up front and love the way it handles. This thing climbs way better than any 6" bike I've every ridden. I climb everything I ride so I'm able to access some killer DH trails. I also demoed the WFO, RIP 9, Sultan, and Tracer 29er, but the HD turns quicker and handles DH trails better. I would rate the 429 cross country to all mountain. The HD all mountain to free ride.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwing_ding View Post
    Been on 29ers since '07, and have been looking for a big bike to compliment the 29er HT. Rough terrain here in AZ, so have been considering two yet-to-be-out bigger travel 29ers...Ripley and SB-95. After having my fork in the shop for a bit, I got tired of running the 29er fully rigid. Decided to demo a Mojo HD setup 160mm F & R. My pre-conceived notions (mostly derived from my memory of the last 4" and 5" 26ers I owned) were nearly smashed to bits with this bike. First time on a DW bike, and it more than offset traction yet remained very efficient for a 6+" bike. The surprise was how well the front end tracked. Great lateral traction, braking traction, off camber traction, and rollin with the slack angles was simply amazing. I don't remember my 26ers rolling in as well as a 29er, and remember them being hung up easier. The geo difference, combined with the 160mm fork erased that difference and then some.

    .
    I'm pretty sure many of the early converts to 29ers had never ever ridden a slack angled 26" bike. Most were hung up with preconceived ideas about ETT and xc bike fit combined with most slack angled bikes weighing gazillions for DH duties only.
    This years generation of 26" trail bikes now have very long wheelbase, low bb and slack angles.MOJO is now looking a bit retro in the wheelbase figures for 26" but ideal for 650B. I suspect future bikes designed for 650b will pull back some of the wheelbase and head angle to match the strengths of 650B stability over 26".

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    @gvs_nz: Definitely came from a XC background, and was doing shorter ultras at the time. 50 to 150 mile stuff. I would have never considered a big bike then, let alone a DH. Now that I want a play bike to compliment the distance bike, I am amazed at how far they have come.

    @Brisco Dog: Sedona - backside of Highline, some of the lesser known trails I won't mention. I can ride about 95% of things on the 29" HT, but it can be both on the edge and sketch at times. Riding the same stuff on the HD was so much easier. I rode a non-DW Sultan a while back in Fruita. Horsethief Bench, etc. I liked a lot about it, but did not like the long rear end. I had a RIP setup w/ a 120mm fork. It was a good all-rounder, but too steep for the really good stuff around here.

    @Dustyman: Thought about the 429 with the new F34 set at 140mm. DW in the rear, would lift the BB (I like them higher), would slacken out the front, built for big wheels, etc. I have a hard time ponying up for something like that, then voiding the warranty with a fork set at 140mm. WFO does not have enough platform for me, RIP was not slack enough and had recurring chain suck issues, Sultan is too long in the rear, and so is the Tracer.

    So far the only thing in question with the HD is that tired feeling at the end of the ride. I remember having fun on a 26er Ventana back in '08, then feeling wore out at the end of the ride too. Yeah, the smaller hoops spin up quicker, but the momentum of the bigger wheels seems to save energy for my style of riding in the long run.

    Wondering if any of you who have converted to 650b have noticed any difference in that department. The DW link suspension does not seem inefficient, and having a suspended rear should save some energy by standing less in our rough terrain. The guy who set it up seemed to have the shock and fork setting dialed.
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    Derby could answer that question about 650b. I know the HD 140 will fit both front and rear with plenty of clearence. I wanted a bike with at least 160mm of travel, so I was concerned with clearence issues in the rear. I do use all my travel on every ride so I'm confident with my decision. The 650b up front makes it an easier transition from the HD to the 29er. If your rides are 3 hrs plus I would go with the 29er, plus it sounds like you prefer cross country. In my humble opinion 29ers are much better for endurance riding. I rode my 429 last year in Sedona and it was perfect. Maybe try and wait until Pivot releases their carbon 29er. I'm all over that.

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    Shock length

    Curious about this

    HD 140 7.875 x 2.0 = 140mm travel
    HD 160 8.5 x 2.5 = 160mm travel

    HD 150 7.875 x 2.25 = 150mm travel???

    Not one of the standard shocks from IBIS but what do you guys think?

    For me this bike sounds da bomb in 650B. Price might keep me off of one though. How's the climbing in 140 mode with 650B? For me climbing technical crap is huge requirement more so than downhill ability which the HD has in spades no matter what setting.
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Curious about this

    HD 140 7.875 x 2.0 = 140mm travel
    HD 160 8.5 x 2.5 = 160mm travel

    HD 150 7.875 x 2.25 = 150mm travel???

    Not one of the standard shocks from IBIS but what do you guys think?

    For me this bike sounds da bomb in 650B. Price might keep me off of one though. How's the climbing in 140 mode with 650B? For me climbing technical crap is huge requirement more so than downhill ability which the HD has in spades no matter what setting.
    My 2011 HD gen-2 has a 4 mm "dent" or concave designed in the back of the seat tube allowing increase wheel clearance. I'm using a 2.25x7.875 shock when set up as an HD140, and my 2.3x650b Neo-moto barely clears the seat tube with no shock shimming.

    I've communicated the clearance with a 2.25 shock with Ibis. They had never tested it, even with 26" wheels. They also have never tested 650b (yet!)

    Due to the rising rate leverage of the HD, I'm guessing the added 12.5% shock shaft travel makes about 152mm vertical wheel travel, maybe 154mm (not 157.5mm which is 12.5% greater than 140mm travel). With the 2.25 shock in the HD140, the bottom travel limit is nearly the same as the HD160 with bigger shock and different shock mounts, the difference is mostly in top travel, the HD140 measures 1/4 inch lower at the BB than the HD160 using the same fork, before sag.

    The HD climbs great in 140 or 160mm travel, few bikes of any travel compare for ease and control climbing, especially climbing rocks. Only the weight of a heavy duty component build is a factor for ease of climbing.

  71. #71
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    Derby...great info, much appreciated!!!

    Probably not worth the effort for me as it would require a non standard 2nd shock either from Fox or a custom Push Monarch.

    Really, really hard to believe those Ibis guys haven't messed around with that shock length or especially the 650B wheels when they must know guys are doing this conversion. Maybe with Fox coming out with the new 650B fork this might change but for me knowing it already converts easily is all I need to know. For the riding I do here in New England 140mm is about perfect IMO and with the 650 wheels the BB height is perfect. What you mentioned about it's rock climbing has me salivating as we have just a few rocks here. There is a local shop that has a demo Mojo (HD?) I should try. It's a medium and I should probably be on a large (6' tall) but I should still give it a whirl to see how it feels.

    One more thing...on the Ibis web site it lists the Mojo 140 HA at 68 degrees with a 150 fork. So with a 140 fork it's now closer to 68.5 degrees I would assume. Have you tried it this way and how does it feel/ride if so? Jeez this bike crazy versatile.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwing_ding View Post
    Yeah, the smaller hoops spin up quicker, but the momentum of the bigger wheels seems to save energy for my style of riding in the long run.

    Wondering if any of you who have converted to 650b have noticed any difference in that department. The DW link suspension does not seem inefficient, and having a suspended rear should save some energy by standing less in our rough terrain. The guy who set it up seemed to have the shock and fork setting dialed.
    Yes, definitely. The 650b wheels roll & maintain speed better, hang up less, and allow for a more relaxed hand at the helm. To me, it feels (FEELS, mind you) like you're getting 75% of the benefit of 29" wheels, with none of the downside....unless you need a lot of mud clearance.

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    Yeah, the word is definitely NOT out in a lot of circles. I just ordered a shimmed down Monarch RT-AM for my SL from Push, and when I mentioned the possibility of using it later at full 2.25" stroke for around 150mm on an HD140 they said couldn't be done. I didn't argue, although I'm pretty sure they just haven't looked at it closely... and they're much higher on the HD160 than the 140 anyway... They like the shock rate much better on the 160 apparently.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Derby...great info, much appreciated!!!

    Probably not worth the effort for me as it would require a non standard 2nd shock either from Fox or a custom Push Monarch.

    Really, really hard to believe those Ibis guys haven't messed around with that shock length or especially the 650B wheels when they must know guys are doing this conversion. Maybe with Fox coming out with the new 650B fork this might change but for me knowing it already converts easily is all I need to know. For the riding I do here in New England 140mm is about perfect IMO and with the 650 wheels the BB height is perfect. What you mentioned about it's rock climbing has me salivating as we have just a few rocks here. There is a local shop that has a demo Mojo (HD?) I should try. It's a medium and I should probably be on a large (6' tall) but I should still give it a whirl to see how it feels.

    One more thing...on the Ibis web site it lists the Mojo 140 HA at 68 degrees with a 150 fork. So with a 140 fork it's now closer to 68.5 degrees I would assume. Have you tried it this way and how does it feel/ride if so? Jeez this bike crazy versatile.
    Versatile is the word I describe the HD when riders along the trail ask how I like my bike. My original Mojo C was versatile too, but the HD's added travel options really make 2 unique feeling bikes. And 650b front-only or both ends increases the versatility of either bike.

    Regarding head angle and fork travel, I haven't got a tool to measure the frame angles accurately, I'll go with what Ibis claims because it feels just right for it's travel for rocky eroded trail. I have a Lyrik u-turn coil and can raise or lower the fork minutely from 115 to 160mm travel. In the HD140 short shock setting I usually run at 140mm for the tight twisty single track of my local trails, sometimes lowered to 130mm for climbing and if feeling like attacking the tight turns quicker with more front end cornering traction. And for longer downhill raise it to 150mm for more stability and flow at faster speeds, and more confidence braking hard and hopping off drops.

    At 140mm travel the Lyrik and most other 35 or 36mm forks have a beefier crown adding 10mm axle-to-crown height over a 32 fork at 140mm travel, so my Lyrik at 140mm travel makes the same frame geometry as a 32 fork with 150mm travel.

    Ibis is a small company and they are all very strong expert riders, from the president of the company to the person sweeping the floors at the end of the day, which might be the president sometimes. It seems that elite riders are slow to change what works well for them. The 29'er project was a real stretch for their personal interests, they have a 'cross bike which covers what 29'ers are good at. But the market demand was ripe for a light weight carbon 29'er DWL to make the investment. I've suggested removable dropouts to allow 650b more clearance, also for BB height tweaking, but they are fixated on designing light weight, and stiff removable dropouts would add a few grams also require expensive retooling for carbon fiber molds, for a minimal gain in sales currently. In reality it's probable that only a handful or two riders in the world are riding 650b Mojo's currently, the market for 650b Ibis is still very small. Now that Fox is planning a 650b fork, Ibis is talking about 650b internally. They have limited bank, they are self funded, and although profitable on paper, the owners still have not broke even since the initial partners funded the company in 2003 or so, but breakeven for the owners is becoming closer. They have a long term vision, and it is succeeding.

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    ok... I've finally made the conversion of my HD140 into 650b...
    In my case I am using my Fox 150mm and as you can see from the picture there is no problem with clearance...
    Now I wish the rain would stop so that I can take it and see how it performs,,,,,
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-2012-01-22-11.23.51.jpg  

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-2012-01-22-11.39.03.jpg  


  76. #76
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    Looks like a twin of mine!
    What kind of Fox talas fork is that? r? rlc? r2?
    I'm assuming its a 120-150mm?

    What was the final weight of that?

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    you mean the better twin right?.....
    Its the RLC 150 Talas. I do not know the weigh of it yet... but it should be slightly less than 13 Kg if I compare it to its weight before the change...

    Itay

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    mojo with 650s!! amazing!

  79. #79
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    Are those 2.3 Neo's front and rear?

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    Its 2.1 and 2.3 rear and front respectively.
    Itay

  81. #81
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    Same thing I'm running currently on my SL.... solid combo

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    Took the dive today and ordered 650b wheels for my HD 160, but it's not too late to change the order if I decide to not do it. Basically my thinking is that the larger wheel size will increase climbing ability and overall smoothness of the trails. Is this way off? It seems to have been asked before without a definitive answer, but is there a noticeable difference in pedaling efficiency? I ride mostly in SLO where we have extremely steep hills, some chunk, some flow; does 650b sound like a good match - I frequently do a 21 mile loop with 2500 feet of climbing and am hoping to make the climb a bit more enjoyable. I also ride around Sac, granite bay, auburn, rockville - anybody ride a 650b mojo there? I will also have a pair of azonic outlaws for N* and Downieville, so I am not completely jumping out of the 26" game... Any and all input is greatly appreciated!

  83. #83
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    Yes, you'll like it....do it. Like a lot of people I transitioned first to 650b front and was happy with the rough trail roll-over, extra high speed stability, and cornering grip/confidence. Some folks had played down the influence of the rear wheel, and admittedly the front wheel does make a more noticeable difference. But I was really pleasantly surprised by the extra climbing grip (even with "less" tire) and the feeling of enhanced efficiency and fast easy rolling.... and of course, they hang up less to improve technical climbing. Your gearing will be a little higher, which might help you break through to new climbing speeds, or you may want to drop a size on your granny if you've got stupid steep barely rideable climbs to tackle. I changed from 36/26 chainrings to 36/24 just so I could keep making those 2 or 3 spots that took so many tries over the years to conquer.

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    Alright thanks, that makes me feel better. I currently am on 1x10 and love it with 34 up front and 12-36 in back, currently for all the climbs I have any desire to actually ride up, the lowest gearing is adequate, though I do have to keep up a pretty good cadence to maintain traction. Will it be significantly more resistant with the larger wheels?

  85. #85
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    2.35 Nevegal 650b on Mojo HD

    I've seen lots of NeoMoto 2.1's and 2.3's on the back end of HD's, but never a 2.35 Nevegal. I prefer the Neo's in back for most situations myself, but wish I could match my front Nev. fatty with a rear for the technical root/rock rides when it's sloppy wet like it is now... won't fit on my SL though... Any of you 650BHD kids have a pic of swingarm clearance with a big Nev?

  86. #86
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    I currently have my HD set up in 160 mode... contemplating building up a set of 650b's but am unsure of what rim to go with. I would probably be running the set up with a 160mm talas in front. maybe 140 rear, but couldn't I just get away with shimming the rear? Alot cheaper than buying a new shock...
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  87. #87
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    My Hadley / 2.0DB / Flow wheels have been SUPERB. I'm really interested in the much lighter and just as wide new Pacenti TL28's...WITH EYELETS even.... if you're not a big parts masher that might be the ticket.

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    I just ordered Stans flows with ZTR 3.30HD hubs, decently light, seems like they will be very solid. I too am running mine in 160 and have it shimmed already even though I don't have the big wheels yet. The shimming feels nice, Im running 10-15 psi softer and still no bob, back end feel much plusher. I made them out of the bottoms of plastic milk bottles, very easy 20-30 minute job tops.
    Last edited by banebane; 02-28-2012 at 02:37 PM.

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    I put the medium fox spacer in, is that the same as shimming the RP-23? I have 26" flows with ibis hubs right now. What about the flow 350s? I'd kinda like to be a little lighter than the flows. Right now the 26" wheelset I have with flows and ibis hubs are around 1850g.
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by manchvegas View Post
    I put the medium fox spacer in, is that the same as shimming the RP-23? I have 26" flows with ibis hubs right now. What about the flow 350s? I'd kinda like to be a little lighter than the flows. Right now the 26" wheelset I have with flows and ibis hubs are around 1850g.
    No, the Fox spacers are designed to change air volume/spring rate WITHOUT limiting the total travel. They nest in the top of the shock body, but to limit travel you need shims that go on the shock shaft itself... Derby or one of the other guys who've tried 160 mode w/ 650b will have to comment on whether you need to limit travel or not... and of course it's always a good idea to confirm it yourself with your bike and wheels. If you do need to shim it's a super simple job...don't even have to pull the shock off the bike. You should be able to find some good threads by Derby on the subject.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    No, the Fox spacers are designed to change air volume/spring rate WITHOUT limiting the total travel. They nest in the top of the shock body, but to limit travel you need shims that go on the shock shaft itself... Derby or one of the other guys who've tried 160 mode w/ 650b will have to comment on whether you need to limit travel or not... and of course it's always a good idea to confirm it yourself with your bike and wheels. If you do need to shim it's a super simple job...don't even have to pull the shock off the bike. You should be able to find some good threads by Derby on the subject.
    Yes, the HD 160 does need shock bottom travel limit shims. The HD140 does not.

    My 2'nd generation 2011 HD has 4mm added bottom travel tire clearance compared to the original model HD's. And set up as an HD160, mine required 2mm total thickness in hand made shims to prevent hard bottom out tire rub with a 2.3 Neo-moto (650b).

    Here is a link to an earlier post here about easily making hand made thin plastic washers as shims, or using hardware store purchased plastic washers, that can be split to go around the shock shaft and limit travel. http://forums.mtbr.com/650b/650b-sho...ce-623853.html

    The Fox air shock volume reducing shims, and Rockshox has something similar too, or hand made doing the same, might be helpful to produce an earlier spring rate ramp up (whether or not limiting travel using shock shaft shims).

  92. #92
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    Thanks for the reply derby. I believe I have the 2nd gen HD. I got mine last fall in september of 2011. I have the 142 rear. Sounds awesome. I can't wait to get some wheels built up an start running in 650b mode. Any rim/hub suggestions to match up with the HD's performance? Was thinkin of the new pacenti 28mm's with hope pro II's or possibly dt240's?
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    Quote Originally Posted by manchvegas View Post
    hope pro II's or possibly dt240's?
    Sing along Derby,

    HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY

    Way cheaper and faster engaging than the DT's, while just as fast rolling and convertible.

    A little more $ than the Hope's but just as convertible, with quicker engagement and about 1 / 10,000 the rolling resistance in the rear.

    Plus they're nice people to deal with, made in USA, and have dealers like Eric at Balle Racing that know it, stock it, sell it at low prices, and are happy to help you even when you're being a PITA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    Sing along Derby,

    HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY HADLEY

    Way cheaper and faster engaging than the DT's, while just as fast rolling and convertible.

    A little more $ than the Hope's but just as convertible, with quicker engagement and about 1 / 10,000 the rolling resistance in the rear.

    Plus they're nice people to deal with, made in USA, and have dealers like Eric at Balle Racing that know it, stock it, sell it at low prices, and are happy to help you even when you're being a PITA.
    Looks like balle is all out of stock of the 12x142 rear, and the 20mmx110mm fronts. The hadley's are heavy bastarts too... 360g just for the rear hub. I'm kind of ignorant of what makes a good hub vs. a bad hub etc... why would you want to "convert" a hub anyway?
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    looks like I could build up a pair of flow 650bs for around 650 in materials. Still would have to have them built up. I did some more reading on the hadleys, definitely sounds good. Also looks like I could build up a complete set of flow 650bs with hadley 12x142 rear hub and 20mm front hub and be around 1850g... not too shabby! Anyone have red barn cyclery build wheels for them?
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by manchvegas View Post
    Looks like balle is all out of stock of the 12x142 rear, and the 20mmx110mm fronts. The hadley's are heavy bastarts too... 360g just for the rear hub. I'm kind of ignorant of what makes a good hub vs. a bad hub etc... why would you want to "convert" a hub anyway?
    Be careful when comparing claimed weights online. I know for my Hadley rear hub, the claimed weight included the thru bolt, while other brands didn't. There's a good reason their rear hub is heavier than some.... the free hub body is machined from Titanium instead of aluminum, so it will never get chewed up by your cassette, leaving you unable to get your cassette off without violent force. Also, their front XC hub will take all axle standards up to 20mm, which makes it quite a bit lighter than other brands oversize, 20mm-capable, front hubs. When I compared my XC 20mm front / 135x10 thru bolt rear pair to a Chris King set capable of doing the same thing the Hadley set was actually LIGHTER.... by a whopping 3 gms...but still, the only reason they're slightly heavier than the lightest comparable stuff is for a good reason....indestructible freehub. And weight at the hub is not that big a deal compared to weight in the rim, or especially the tire. I can't count how many times (every time, basically) I've coasted away from my 40lb-heavier riding buddies on Hope and King hubs thanks to the lower friction Hadleys. Disclaimer: The Hadleys may require more maintenance in super wet conditions than Kings due to the nature of their seals, but that hasn't been an issue for me. And yes, they've become really popular so they sell out a lot....I had to wait for my rear hub. Universal Cycles also stocks them and with their "vip15" discount code they come close to Balle's price.

    You'd want to be able to convert your hubs to future-proof them so you can use them on other bikes or forks. The Hadley front XC hub will do 9mm qr, 9mm thru bolt, 15mm thru, 20mm thru, and the rears will do 10mm qr, 10mmx135 thru, 12x135 thru, 12x142 thru...and probably more.

    IMO, hub features in order of importance are:
    1. Durability and ease of maintenance: +1 hadley
    2. Rolling resistance....that's their whole reason for existence anyway: +1 hadley
    3. Convertability: +1 hadley
    4. Customer service: +1 hadley and balle
    5. Price: Hadley's low to mid-pack for premium hubs
    6. Weight: not the lightest but competitive
    7. Engagement: +1 hadley
    8. Wet weather seals: not the best but you can install different bearings if you live in a wet place...this will cost you a little rolling resistance, and is why Kings have more drag.

    Everybody will have a different order, but it's some combination of these factors.... for me, Hadley strikes the best balance. I'm not bagging on any of the other choices, King and DT make super awesome hubs and I'd love to have wheelsets with both if I were sponsored.....as far as Hope hubs go I'll say that I really love my Hope brakes Somebody will probably point out I9 too and they appear to have really nice attributes too but I don't have any experience with them.

  97. #97
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    Looks like you'd already been sold before I finished typing that friggin manifesto...haha.
    That weight should be really close, from memory I believe mine are 1810gm for the set and I used lighter XL14 spokes on the front and allow nips all around... I'm a relatively light rider. One other thing that's a small bummer... if you get the xc front hub setup for 20mm the axle end caps are loose, so it makes wheel installation a little goofy....one of those jobs that's easier with 3 hands, but with a little practice I can do it quick and easy the first try. Their downhill hub is a little heavier but doesn't have that downside and is now convertible to all common standards. I build my own so can't comment on Red Barn.

    BTW, my Flow's have been great, but if the Pacenti TL28's had been out I would have gone with them instead...same width, much lighter, welded, eyelets, and first reports on build quality, stiffness, and tubeless setup are all excellent. Plus Kirk's kind of our patron saint right? If you're a hoss you might be better staying with the Flows though....they're well proven.

  98. #98
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    Haha, ya I'm kinda sold, I did some research, and my buddy is actually having a wheelset built up as we speak by red barn, an he said they were very reasonable price wise. I'm thinking Hadley rear and hope pro II front I don't feel like messing with a xc front hub as I will most likely be changing set ups often, as I run the HD with a 160 talas for every day, and swap to a 180mm coil for the bike park.

    I am about 160 with all my riding gear on, I have flows on my HD now and they are a solid wheel and have had REALLY good luck with my tubeless set up as well. I'm just worried about the pacenti tl28's as... even the description says "good for everything short of big jumps and drops" I regularly hit 4-5' drops. Are the new pacenti's strong enough for that kind of riding? Or am I silly to even think about them over the flows for my type of riding? My average ride 15 minutes from my house has about 10-15 good sized jumps/drops that I hit on a regular basis...
    Full time rider part time racer...

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  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by manchvegas View Post
    Haha, ya I'm kinda sold, I did some research, and my buddy is actually having a wheelset built up as we speak by red barn, an he said they were very reasonable price wise. I'm thinking Hadley rear and hope pro II front I don't feel like messing with a xc front hub as I will most likely be changing set ups often, as I run the HD with a 160 talas for every day, and swap to a 180mm coil for the bike park.

    I am about 160 with all my riding gear on, I have flows on my HD now and they are a solid wheel and have had REALLY good luck with my tubeless set up as well. I'm just worried about the pacenti tl28's as... even the description says "good for everything short of big jumps and drops" I regularly hit 4-5' drops. Are the new pacenti's strong enough for that kind of riding? Or am I silly to even think about them over the flows for my type of riding? My average ride 15 minutes from my house has about 10-15 good sized jumps/drops that I hit on a regular basis...
    Hadley's have been good hubs to me. I'm 200 lbs and ride mostly where there's much climbing, roots and rocks, so most metal components and frames under me wear out or fail in about 2 years. But my Hadley rear hub lasted much longer than common, finally needing rebuilding after 4 years. I only own one bike, so that was about 7 to 9 thousand miles, not sure (my miles are getting shorter with advancing age, I used to do 3 to 4.5k miles per year with much climbing).

    I just received a pair a new Hadley hubs to build up a new wheelset, to retire my old wheels to be back ups and loaners to friends interested in trying 650b.

    I'm probably going to use Kirk Pacenti's TL rims. I've been on Velocity rims Blunt and P35 (front), and they have held up well, especially the P35. They work well for tubeless convert with ghetto (split tube) rim strips. They are a bit soft and dent easily when pressures are too low for rocky conditions (and the dents straighten out easily too). I only do 3 ft to flat drops max so far.

    I want to build a 26 inch rear wheel for occasional DH park use. To slack the frame angles and lower the BB since climbing pedal clearance isn't an issue. Unless I find a good deal on a used high end hub, I think I'm going to try an Atomlab Pimplite. The Pimplite has 60 engagement points which is quicker than all but a few hubs. There are few reviews, but nothing bad. Personally I don't like Hope rear hubs becuse they are extremely slow engaging, flexy, relatively high friction, obnoxiously loud, and not durable for more than XC and light AM use from user reviews in the DH forum.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by manchvegas View Post
    Haha, ya I'm kinda sold, I did some research, and my buddy is actually having a wheelset built up as we speak by red barn, an he said they were very reasonable price wise. I'm thinking Hadley rear and hope pro II front I don't feel like messing with a xc front hub as I will most likely be changing set ups often, as I run the HD with a 160 talas for every day, and swap to a 180mm coil for the bike park.

    I am about 160 with all my riding gear on, I have flows on my HD now and they are a solid wheel and have had REALLY good luck with my tubeless set up as well. I'm just worried about the pacenti tl28's as... even the description says "good for everything short of big jumps and drops" I regularly hit 4-5' drops. Are the new pacenti's strong enough for that kind of riding? Or am I silly to even think about them over the flows for my type of riding? My average ride 15 minutes from my house has about 10-15 good sized jumps/drops that I hit on a regular basis...
    Only early reports on the TL28's thus far, but they're very positive. I would have pegged you for an ideal candidate for that rim, and you may still be, but the "180mm coil for the bike park" makes me wonder. Are you hard on your equipment? Break much stuff?

    In a perfect world I'd have a TL28 set with lighter faster tires for some of my rides, and my current FLOWS for the burlier stuff.... all on Hadley!

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