• 10-29-2012
    fc
    2 Attachment(s)
    27.5 All Mountain Bike Shootout
    All Mountain Bike Shootout. We're waiting for all the bikes to arrive but we're riding and jumping these bikes now.
  • 10-29-2012
    Salespunk
    Which bikes are you testing?
  • 10-29-2012
    down2ride
    Looks like fun, if you need an extra testor send a couple bikes my way!
  • 10-29-2012
    r1Gel
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    All Mountain Bike Shootout. We're waiting for all the bikes to arrive but we're riding and jumping these bikes now.

    Please tell me that the 2013 RM Altitude is on the list! :yesnod:
  • 10-29-2012
    fc
    Jamis, intense, norco in house.

    Scott, Rocky Mountain, khs coming.

    Turner is being redesigned and due in Dec.
  • 10-30-2012
    jayoutside
    and you are throwing the 650 blur TRc in there right? Be pretty cool to see how a conversion compares to a dedicated set-up.
  • 10-30-2012
    Raja
    Excellent! Very interested in your findings.
  • 10-30-2012
    ggilings
    Subbin. Excited to hear of the results!
  • 10-30-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jayoutside View Post
    and you are throwing the 650 blur TRc in there right? Be pretty cool to see how a conversion compares to a dedicated set-up.

    I can see arguments either way as to whether this shoot out should be purpose built only or should include conversions. If the SC is allowed in, then StiHacka's Mojo HD for sure should be too given his enthusiastic reviews. Though I had thought Ibis was going to sell a purpose built.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-30-2012
    StiHacka
    If I am not mistaken that is Pastajet in one of the pictures above. He is the best person to report how he likes them new bikes compared to his Mojo HD! :)
  • 10-30-2012
    etanc
    The bike classes are starting to blur...

    Sorry for that.
  • 10-30-2012
    etanc
    The bike classes are starting to blur...

    Sorry for that. Looking forward to the comparison.
  • 10-30-2012
    fc
    4 Attachment(s)
    My son normally rides a Blur TRc but he is loving the Norco Sight 650b. It is a very easy bike to ride well.

    He is big for 12 yrs old. Size is medium. With this bike he has schooled his teacher. :)
  • 10-30-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    My son normally rides a Blur TRc but he is loving the Norco Sight 650b. It is a very easy bike to ride well.

    He is big for 12 yrs old. Size is medium. With this bike he has schooled his teacher. :)

    Strong kid, nice looking bike.

    If he is schooling you now, he will put you in the hospital in 2 years :D.

    It is a bittersweet thing in a man's life when the torch is passed to his son. Pride competing with sense of mortality
  • 10-30-2012
    fc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Strong kid, nice looking bike.

    If he is schooling you now, he will put you in the hospital in 2 years :D.

    It is a bittersweet thing in a man's life when the torch is passed to his son. Pride competing with sense of mortality

    Yep, we hit the crossroads three years ahead of schedule. He is out jumping me now and it all happened in the past two months. He discovered dropping posts too and he won't ride without one again.

    Anyway, back on topic, he is dialed on this Norco both up and down and I don't think that's possible with a 29er.

    Miguel testing the Norco Sight 650b | Facebook
  • 10-30-2012
    skidad
    Mojo HD 140 should be part of this as it's certified by Ibis now and sets a very high bar.

    Ventana Zeus should be in there somehow someway

    Ring up Knolly for a pre production 650 Endorphin and Banshee for the all new 650 Spitfire :D Ok, that might not be possible but they're both coming soon and I can wish :p

    This should be good and Francois, make sure you ride these bikes in some serious rocks gardens as the new love for low BB = lots of pedal hit if you live in those conditions like New England. 13.3" BB on the Norco is disturbing IMO.
  • 10-30-2012
    J:
    Please include some new tires in these tests... w/ good volume! (as they become available)
  • 10-30-2012
    slowrider
    SHould be interesting
    I tried the Tracer 275 and liked it much better than my tracer 29; I'd like to see it compared to the Foes F275 as well, I'm on the waiting list at Foes for a test ride when they build a demo bike. Very interested in the revised Burner as well.
  • 10-30-2012
    fc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by slowrider View Post
    I tried the Tracer 275 and liked it much better than my tracer 29; I'd like to see it compared to the Foes F275 as well, I'm on the waiting list at Foes for a test ride when they build a demo bike. Very interested in the revised Burner as well.

    We're getting the Foes F275. And I have a Blur TRc 650b Conversion. I'm sure I can get a Mojo HD 650b.

    For tires, I have all cool Schwalbe's now. Rocket Ron, Nobby Nic, Hans Dampf.
    Schwalbe 2013 Tires – Hans Dampf, Rocket Ron, Nobby Nic | Mountain Bike Review

    fc
  • 10-31-2012
    J:
    I'm liking my trailstars that's for sure, still need to try the Hans Dampf... and the new Wild Grip'r looks good
  • 10-31-2012
    slowrider
    Very cool
    Looking forward to the comparo, particularly the Tracer and Foes 275:D
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    We're getting the Foes F275. And I have a Blur TRc 650b Conversion. I'm sure I can get a Mojo HD 650b.

    For tires, I have all cool Schwalbe's now. Rocket Ron, Nobby Nic, Hans Dampf.
    Schwalbe 2013 Tires Hans Dampf, Rocket Ron, Nobby Nic | Mountain Bike Review

    fc

  • 10-31-2012
    doismellbacon
    subscribing
  • 10-31-2012
    dwt
    Francois - maybe cross post shoot out in AM forum?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-31-2012
    jabrabu
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    subscribing

    me too
  • 10-31-2012
    Kstateskier
    sub'd!!
  • 10-31-2012
    FireLikeIYA
    Sub'd. Waiting to hear how the Burner compares.
  • 10-31-2012
    fc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    Sub'd. Waiting to hear how the Burner compares.

    The Burner is one of the best as I've tried it in Vegas Outdoor Demo. It handles like a champ with it's low CG. 67.5 degree head angle I believe. It didn't have too much travel at 130mm I believe but it used it well. It was plush but it climbed well, even out of saddle with the DW Link rear end.

    However, Dave Turner sent me a note that they have decided to redesign the frame after Outerbike (or Turner User demo) in Utah since it was just a bit too low for broad appeal to users and other regions. So, it will be a while. He may get a bike to me or other media by December.

    fc
  • 10-31-2012
    skidad
    Speaking of the Burner what's the deal with this redesign?

    Outerbike (Intebike?) had mention from Turner that it was actually in production :confused:

    Let me guess...he's gonna lower the BB even more :rolleyes:
  • 10-31-2012
    StiHacka
    He could have built two versions - a Low Burner and a High Burner. :thumbsup:
  • 10-31-2012
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Dave Turner sent me a note that they have decided to redesign the frame after Outerbike (or Turner User demo) in Utah since it was just a bit too low for broad appeal to users and other regions. So, it will be a while. He may get a bike to me or other media by December.

    fc

    So this is what I see after I post my low BB smack at Turner

    Hmmm, really good news IMO and glad to see it. DW Link anti squat can only do so much. I think the Burner was sporting a 13" BB or close to it. Crazy for a 140mm bike :nono:
  • 10-31-2012
    dwt
    Francois - how will the riders be rating the bikes?

    I read the equipment review in the ski mags, and though they can be bogus , the idea is to list a few categories of performance and rate the ski on a 1 -5 scale in each category Then average the results for overall winners.

    For bikes, I can think of a few, such as: climbing, descending, cornering, maneuverability in singletrack, ease of airing, general flickability/handling.

    You would have to ride the same trails and control for tires and tire widths.

    Anybody think this is a good/bad idea?:confused:
  • 10-31-2012
    reformed roadie
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    He could have built two versions - a Low Burner and a High Burner. :thumbsup:

    Or made had some sort of adjustment, a la the RM.

    I might suggest including a well reputed 26" AM/trailbike in the shootout (sooo MBA) as a control.
  • 10-31-2012
    lml427
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    He could have built two versions - a Low Burner and a High Burner. :thumbsup:

    Now it's going to be called the After Burner.
  • 10-31-2012
    skinewmexico
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    He could have built two versions - a Low Burner and a High Burner. :thumbsup:

    Under rated post.
  • 10-31-2012
    J:
    Apparently the first shocks that were on Vegas Burner was too firm and got changed out w/ proper tune..

    Maybe couple shocks need to be tried on each of these new frames as well?
  • 10-31-2012
    andy f
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lml427 View Post
    Now it's going to be called the After Burner.

    Turner really did make a model called the Afterburner in the late 90's. 5" travel DH bike.
  • 10-31-2012
    slowrider
    Good idea
    I would like to see a point system for the various peramiters but rather than a 5 point scale more like a 50 point scale to seperate the ones that are closer, most 5 or even 10 point ratings can seperate nearly identical bikes too much; lets not get like the German magazines though.

    I read the equipment review in the ski mags, and though they can be bogus , the idea is to list a few categories of performance and rate the ski on a 1 -5 scale in each category Then average the results for overall winners.

    For bikes, I can think of a few, such as: climbing, descending, cornering, maneuverability in singletrack, ease of airing, general flickability/handling.

    You would have to ride the same trails and control for tires and tire widths.

    Anybody think this is a good/bad idea?:confused:[/QUOTE]
  • 10-31-2012
    PaintPeelinPbody
    I'd like a comparison against a similar travel 26" and a similar travel 29er. Slack and 140/150mm plus. Start with the 26" and end with 29".
  • 10-31-2012
    RideEverything
    Are you going to review the Norco Range 650b?
  • 10-31-2012
    fc
    Norco Range... not too much. I've ridden it 3x in Canada and Norco will be sending the Range to our Canadian writer, LeeL.

    But I do have the Sight and I will put different front shocks and rear shocks on it and it will be very close to the Range.

    One of our friends made a Norco Range video during the press announcement
    <iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6IZLBZLNNsI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    fc
  • 10-31-2012
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Speaking of the Burner what's the deal with this redesign?

    Outerbike (Intebike?) had mention from Turner that it was actually in production :confused:

    Let me guess...he's gonna lower the BB even more :rolleyes:

    They finally have the new Geometry on the website.Looks about an inch longer in the wheelbase than the 5 spot. Finally some contemporary geometry from Turner. Maybe ibis and Santa Cruz may follow?
  • 10-31-2012
    OldHouseMan
    This would be incomplete without a review of Ventana's Zeus.
  • 10-31-2012
    Phishin Paul
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    This would be incomplete without a review of Ventana's Zeus.


    No doubt. If Francois makes his way to SoCal he can use mine for he shoot out.
  • 10-31-2012
    slowrider
    I'd be interested in seeing that comparo
    Since I cant make it up to Ventana to see how it differs from older Ventanas I've ridden along with the Foes, Turner and Intense Tracer.
  • 10-31-2012
    r1Gel
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    My son normally rides a Blur TRc but he is loving the Norco Sight 650b. It is a very easy bike to ride well.

    He is big for 12 yrs old. Size is medium. With this bike he has schooled his teacher. :)

    I don't want to pre-empt the shootout, but I've got some questions about the Sight B.
    Would you happen to have the weight of the medium? How tall is your son? What stem length is he running on it? I'm 5'7" and going by just the numbers, I'd think the small would fit me.
  • 11-01-2012
    fc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by r1Gel View Post
    I don't want to pre-empt the shootout, but I've got some questions about the Sight B.
    Would you happen to have the weight of the medium? How tall is your son? What stem length is he running on it? I'm 5'7" and going by just the numbers, I'd think the small would fit me.

    The Sight is 29.6 lbs bone stock without pedals. It has a chain an MRP chain guide and a Reverb dropping post and Hans Dampf tires.

    I changed the tires, saddle, cogset and got it down to 28 lbs.

    My son is 5'5" and I'm 5'8". It fits me perfect and it's just a hair big for him.
  • 11-01-2012
    savechief
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    They finally have the new Geometry on the website.Looks about an inch longer in the wheelbase than the 5 spot. Finally some contemporary geometry from Turner. Maybe ibis and Santa Cruz may follow?

    What do you consider to be "contemporary geometry"?
  • 11-01-2012
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    They finally have the new Geometry on the website.Looks about an inch longer in the wheelbase than the 5 spot. Finally some contemporary geometry from Turner. Maybe ibis and Santa Cruz may follow?

    Still listed with a 13" BB height :nono:

    What do you mean by "contemporary geometry"? Longer TT, reach, WB, etc???

    Also of note in the build sections are Stans Arch rims which aren't even available to my knowledge and 2.1 Nevegal tires F/B which seems odd for a bike like this and a longish 90mm stem.
  • 11-01-2012
    andy f
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The Sight is 29.6 lbs bone stock without pedals. It has a chain an MRP chain guide and a Reverb dropping post and Hans Dampf tires.

    I changed the tires, saddle, cogset and got it down to 28 lbs.

    My son is 5'5" and I'm 5'8". It fits me perfect and it's just a hair big for him.

    There's something odd about the Norco Sight sizing. I rode a 2012 Sight out at Wilder Ranch for a couple of hours and felt like the large was a good fit for me at 5'10" while the medium felt a bit cramped. The ETT on the large was listed at 24.1", the medium was a bit over 23" and I usually like top tubes around 23-23.5". I also (very briefly) tested a medium Intense Carbine SL and medium Specialized SJ Evo Expert, both of which felt like perfect fits at 23.0" ETT and a large Ibis Mojo HD which felt slightly too large at 23.8".
  • 11-01-2012
    savechief
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Still listed with a 13" BB height :nono:

    What do you mean by "contemporary geometry"? Longer TT, reach, WB, etc???

    Also of note in the build sections are Stans Arch rims which aren't even available to my knowledge and 2.1 Nevegal tires F/B which seems odd for a bike like this and a longish 90mm stem.

    DT said that the 13" BB height would be with short tires and that the full builds would ship with an 80mm stem.
  • 11-01-2012
    madsedan
    I see awesome in the future of this thread!
  • 11-01-2012
    gvs_nz
    [QUOTE=skidad;9833940]Still listed with a 13" BB height :nono:

    What do you mean by "contemporary geometry"? Longer TT, reach, WB, etc???

    QUOTE]

    Mainly WB, along with that short front centre,long stem and steepish head angles. It's their signature but it's very pre 29er tight forrest trail bike geometry.has no one told them 29ers are selling in droves because of their stabilty. Post the 29er revolution , 26" bikes are longer slacker and lower.650B is following.

    5 spot and Mojo Hd by now should be at least 1" longer in the wheelbase and 67 and 66 degree head angle respectively.

    Still, they provide plenty of bikes to convert to 650b. Then they handle properly.
  • 11-01-2012
    StiHacka
    Ummm the full Mojo HD has 67 deg (160mm fork) or 66 deg (180mm) HA today and its wheelbase is IMHO quite spot on with its 17.1 stays. I run mine at 66deg with a 1deg angleset @ 160mm and I would not want it any slacker or wheelbase longer.
  • 11-01-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Mainly WB, along with that short front centre,long stem and steepish head angles. It's their signature but it's very pre 29er tight forrest trail bike geometry.has no one told them 29ers are selling in droves because of their stabilty. Post the 29er revolution , 26" bikes are longer slacker and lower.650B is following.

    5 spot and Mojo Hd by now should be at least 1" longer in the wheelbase and 67 and 66 degree head angle respectively.

    Still, they provide plenty of bikes to convert to 650b. Then they handle properly.

    I'm into 650b for 2 years now, have a converted XC 26'er and a Jamis 560B2 both with 69* HTA. The Rip 9 I demoed also steep HTA. Coming off 20 years of riding/racing XC 26'ers, they all felt normal to me.

    So I've never ridden a "proper" new school bike with slack HTA. I'm just old and irrelevant and wondering how I will adjust to a 5 or 6" 650b with 67* HTA. I can imagine not being able to climb, and getting out of my ability zone coming down.

    Somebody please preview what I should expect
  • 11-01-2012
    fc
    2 Attachment(s)
    a couple of photos

    Intense 275

    Jamis 650b
  • 11-01-2012
    mtnbikerx
    Bump
  • 11-01-2012
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    Ummm the full Mojo HD has 67 deg (160mm fork) or 66 deg (180mm) HA today and its wheelbase is IMHO quite spot on with its 17.1 stays. I run mine at 66deg with a 1deg angleset @ 160mm and I would not want it any slacker or wheelbase longer.

    Contemporary AM designs are a full 2" longer in the wheelbase e.g. Meta AM Scott Genius.
    I think you would find a contempoaray 130mm trail bike with the same Geo as the HD handles better in the forrest trail environment. The contemp 130mm suspension designs have changed a lot recently , especially with the boost valve shock, to use more of their travel easier. Hence contemp 130 designs feel like 150mm designs of old but are tighter , more accurate and climb better.

    ACC does wonders on her HD but don't be surprised if disguised under that Pea green paint job some custom Geo tuning. Very easy to do on a frame like the HD.
  • 11-01-2012
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I'm into 650b for 2 years now, have a converted XC 26'er and a Jamis 560B2 both with 69* HTA. The Rip 9 I demoed also steep HTA. Coming off 20 years of riding/racing XC 26'ers, they all felt normal to me.

    So I've never ridden a "proper" new school bike with slack HTA. I'm just old and irrelevant and wondering how I will adjust to a 5 or 6" 650b with 67* HTA. I can imagine not being able to climb, and getting out of my ability zone coming down.

    Somebody please preview what I should expect

    I'm with you liking 650b at 68 to 69 in forrest trails. Contemp 650b is targeting Enduro bikes so don't expect to many at that head angle. See if you can steal a ride on a 66 to 67 degree 26" bike with relatively lightweight tires[650 to 750g]. You'd be surprised how similar it feels to 650B at 68 degrees.
    When you benchmark against 29ers slack 26" is surprisingly crisp handling.
  • 11-01-2012
    StiHacka
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Contemporary AM designs are a full 2" longer in the wheelbase e.g. Meta AM Scott Genius.
    I think you would find a contempoaray 130mm trail bike with the same Geo as the HD handles better in the forrest trail environment. The contemp 130mm suspension designs have changed a lot recently , especially with the boost valve shock, to use more of their travel easier. Hence contemp 130 designs feel like 150mm designs of old but are tighter , more accurate and climb better.

    ACC does wonders on her HD but don't be surprised if disguised under that Pea green paint job some custom Geo tuning. Very easy to do on a frame like the HD.

    It is all a matter of personal preference. I have a short torso - I like shortish TT. I can compare a very contemporary SC Nickel w/ 5" of APP vs. the HD DW-Link. Yes, the APP feels quite bottomless, but it quite sucks at 1x9 because its platform and anti-squat turns the bike into a hard tail in technical climbing. The DW-Link maintains traction like possessed in forest terrain. Also, I highly prefer speed sensitive shock with linear response over a position sensitive shock with a boost valve - again from my limited experience with an Avalanche DHX 5 vs. Float RL / RP23. Boost valves are nothing but a crutch for poor suspension designs IMO.
  • 11-01-2012
    skidad
    From the pic above it looks like a proper bar width and stem length on the Jamis for testing and not the stock stuff. Dam you Francois with the NN on there already. Have a set on the way from Germany. Little snug at the upper arch huh?

    I've yet to ride one of these new slack bikes and gotta admit for where I live and the conditions I ride I'm more than a little concerned about how well they can hold a tight line and steer vs pushing against something to turn. Our berms here are rocks and roots, anything but smooth. So many of these bike tests are done out west where long, low and slack bikes seem just fine and polar opposite conditions from New England. Still, I'm very excited about this up coming shootout and maybe I can get my cake and eat it to? If I can get a slack bike that turns on a dime, climbs like a mountain goat, 140-150mm travel with a nice BB height so I'm not smacking pedals constantly and sub 30lbs the credit card will be ready. My 3 kids can do without Christmas presents this year I think?????
  • 11-01-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    From the pic above it looks like a proper bar width and stem length on the Jamis for testing and not the stock stuff. Dam you Francois with the NN on there already. Have a set on the way from Germany. Little snug at the upper arch huh?

    I've yet to ride one of these new slack bikes and gotta admit for where I live and the conditions I ride I'm more than a little concerned about how well they can hold a tight line and steer vs pushing against something to turn. Our berms here are rocks and roots, anything but smooth. So many of these bike tests are done out west where long, low and slack bikes seem just fine and polar opposite conditions from New England. Still, I'm very excited about this up coming shootout and maybe I can get my cake and eat it to? If I can get a slack bike that turns on a dime, climbs like a mountain goat, 140-150mm travel with a nice BB height so I'm not smacking pedals constantly and sub 30lbs the credit card will be ready. My 3 kids can do without Christmas presents this year I think?????

    Nice dream. RM Altitude? Genius 700? Both having carbon frames with adjustable HTA and BB height.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 11-01-2012
    Cayenne_Pepa
    You're going to love the new 650b/27.5er Scott Genius. I just rode a pre-production prototype....OMG!!!!
  • 11-01-2012
    661lee
    Looking forward to this...
  • 11-01-2012
    jazzanova
    2013 - The year of 650b :)
  • 11-01-2012
    fc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    You're going to love the new 650b/27.5er Scott Genius. I just rode a pre-production prototype....OMG!!!!

    Yess!! I rode the Scott Genius 700 aluminum in Vegas. It was very awesome. Hopefully, I get a carbon one to test.

    2013 Scott Genius 700 – 650b Ride Report | Mountain Bike Review

    fc
  • 11-01-2012
    fc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    2013 - The year of 650b :)

    I've ridden many of these all mountain 650b bikes now and I can say that they are going to take over the All Mountain world. They are just soo good and it's propelled by a wave of energy that is supplying amazing forks and tires.

    The real bullseye for 650b (at least for 2013) is 5-6" bikes. At those travel levels, 29ers are just not that good. A 6" 29er with big tires is not awesome. A 650b bike at in that category is agile, capable and fun.

    29ers will continue to dominate hardtails and short travel xc bikes. They are really good in that category.

    26ers will hang on for sizing and big travel legacy reasons so they won't go away. There will be minimal growth however.

    In the future, many will own a 29er hardtail and a 650b All Mountain bike. Both will be awesome and the ride handling transition between them will be manageable.

    The only real issue will be supply. These small/medium companies will not be able to make them fast enough for 2013. And I don't think there will be any opportunity to test ride.

    The huge bike companies will jump on board (i hope) but they need time. They need time to do carbon fiber molds and make their own wheels and tires.

    fc
  • 11-02-2012
    jazzanova
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I've ridden many of these all mountain 650b bikes now and I can say that they are going to take over the All Mountain world. They are just soo good and it's propelled by a wave of energy that is supplying amazing forks and tires.

    The real bullseye for 650b (at least for 2013) is 5-6" bikes. At those travel levels, 29ers are just not that good. A 6" 29er with big tires is not awesome. A 650b bike at in that category is agile, capable and fun.

    29ers will continue to dominate hardtails and short travel xc bikes. They are really good in that category.

    26ers will hang on for sizing and big travel legacy reasons so they won't go away. There will be minimal growth however.

    In the future, many will own a 29er hardtail and a 650b All Mountain bike. Both will be awesome and the ride handling transition between them will be manageable.

    The only real issue will be supply. These small/medium companies will not be able to make them fast enough for 2013. And I don't think there will be any opportunity to test ride.

    The huge bike companies will jump on board (i hope) but they need time. They need time to do carbon fiber molds and make their own wheels and tires.

    fc

    Now I need your advice. I can't make up my mind for the last 2 months.
    Should I build a 650b TRc (got the frame in SC sale) or should sell it, wait and get a 650b dedicated frame?
    I know you have ridden a TRc in 650b for awhile, so what would Francis do?
  • 11-02-2012
    r1Gel
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The Sight is 29.6 lbs bone stock without pedals. It has a chain an MRP chain guide and a Reverb dropping post and Hans Dampf tires.

    I changed the tires, saddle, cogset and got it down to 28 lbs.

    My son is 5'5" and I'm 5'8". It fits me perfect and it's just a hair big for him.

    Thanks for the reply.
    Interesting. So I guess the medium would fit me (even though I have unusually long legs and a short torso for a male :rolleyes:)
    'eagerly anticipating the article.

    edit: FWIW that's a pound heavier than Norco's "target" weight
  • 11-02-2012
    Derek.Endress
    2013 RM Altitude. Very curious what thoughts are as this may be a strong consideration from local bike shop for my son. Look forward to the comparisons :)
  • 11-02-2012
    StiHacka
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Now I need your advice. I can't make up my mind for the last 2 months.
    Should I build a 650b TRc (got the frame in SC sale) or should sell it, wait and get a 650b dedicated frame?
    I know you have ridden a TRc in 650b for awhile, so what would Francis do?

    If I were you, I would give it a shot. You already have the frame, you can get some pretty decent wheel sets in the classifieds from time to time (I would jump on those crests/chris king hubs if I were you), the rest of the components are the same for both wheel sizes. Building and riding the TRc will let you better understand what exactly you want from the new wave of (not inexpensive) 650b trail/AM bikes IMO.
  • 11-02-2012
    Reforminded
    Curious why you are testing the last generation of the Jamis 650b platform....the frame is completely redesigned for 2013 and is supposed to be substantially stiffer (laterally) while also shedding a little weight.
  • 11-02-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by reformed roadie View Post
    I might suggest including a well reputed 26" AM/trailbike in the shootout (sooo MBA) as a control.

    That's a really good idea. Also, how about a Genius 900 or other similar 29'er,?


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  • 11-02-2012
    trailbrain
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Jamis, intense, norco in house.

    Scott, Rocky Mountain, khs coming.

    Turner is being redesigned and due in Dec.


    When you say redesigned for the Turner what are you referencing? The build kit or the geometry?
  • 11-02-2012
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by trailbrain View Post
    When you say redesigned for the Turner what are you referencing? The build kit or the geometry?

    BB height. Proto's were 12.75" and the new ones will be 13" :nono:

    Not gonna see many Turner Burners sold in New England :D It's a different world here and closer to 14" would be better
  • 11-02-2012
    Dirthugger
    :thumbsup:
    I need a lot of popcorn to see this shootout.

    I have my heart set on the carbine 27.5 But I love free market this is true American.
  • 11-02-2012
    person579
    are you doing carbon bikes or aluminum because if you are doing aluminum I would like get my hands on a 650b aluminum full supension
  • 11-02-2012
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    It is all a matter of personal preference. I have a short torso - I like shortish TT. I can compare a very contemporary SC Nickel w/ 5" of APP vs. the HD DW-Link. Yes, the APP feels quite bottomless, but it quite sucks at 1x9 because its platform and anti-squat turns the bike into a hard tail in technical climbing. The DW-Link maintains traction like possessed in forest terrain. Also, I highly prefer speed sensitive shock with linear response over a position sensitive shock with a boost valve - again from my limited experience with an Avalanche DHX 5 vs. Float RL / RP23. Boost valves are nothing but a crutch for poor suspension designs IMO.

    You made a good choice with the HD for riding seated over lots of tree roots. It rides high but settles into it's travel well and sucks up those sharp edge rollover objects.My Meta 6 is good for that as it has a similar suspension curve but with a lot more antisquat than the HD.

    I would consider the Blur TRc suspension performance contemporary, not the Nickel.The TRc has more antisquat but settles deeper into it's travel much easier.From about 50mm of travel it 's suspension curve is almost identical to the HD.The nickel ramps up quite a bit more is than both from 40mm onwards.

    I'm with you on boost valve shocks but for the opposite reason. The boost valve shock needs to be paired with a good contemparary suspension design.I can see where your coming from if you had to use it like a CTD shock.They would be terrible on a poor suspension design unless you are always reaching down and switching modes. Ive only got one bike where it works really well. The rest of my bikes I've replaced all my boost valve rp23's with RT3's
  • 11-02-2012
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post

    26ers will hang on for sizing and big travel legacy reasons so they won't go away. There will be minimal growth however.

    fc

    Currently Schwalbe disagree with you. Their 26" tire range is still the biggest by far and it's getting bigger with snakeskin being added to Ro Ro.
  • 11-02-2012
    slowrider
    At least some Aluminum
    The Foes and Turners only come in aluminum and I believe it was said that the Tracer 275 will be included so that would be 3 Aluminum bikes involved.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by person579 View Post
    are you doing carbon bikes or aluminum because if you are doing aluminum I would like get my hands on a 650b aluminum full supension

  • 11-02-2012
    slowrider
    At least some Aluminum
    The Foes and Turners only come in aluminum and I believe it was said that the Tracer 275 will be included so that would be 3 Aluminum bikes involved.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by person579 View Post
    are you doing carbon bikes or aluminum because if you are doing aluminum I would like get my hands on a 650b aluminum full supension

  • 11-02-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by slowrider View Post
    The Foes and Turners only come in aluminum and I believe it was said that the Tracer 275 will be included so that would be 3 Aluminum bikes involved.

    If I'm not mistaken, the Norco Sight and Range only come in aluminium as well. The Scott Genuis and the RM Altitude have both carbon and aluminium options.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 11-02-2012
    fc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Currently Schwalbe disagree with you. Their 26" tire range is still the biggest by far and it's getting bigger with snakeskin being added to Ro Ro.

    26er will be the biggest category for many component companies for a while. But that will be more because of legacy.

    Notice that not many new products will be introduced there. Schwalbe for example will not have any new 26er tread patterns. But they will have six new 650b ones next year.

    fc
  • 11-02-2012
    fc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Reforminded View Post
    Curious why you are testing the last generation of the Jamis 650b platform....the frame is completely redesigned for 2013 and is supposed to be substantially stiffer (laterally) while also shedding a little weight.

    This is a good point. It's just that I've had this 2012 Jamis test bike for the last three months. I'll ask them for a new one on Monday.

    fc
  • 11-02-2012
    Shane_CA
    Subscribed. Great thread. Really interested in the feedback on the RM Altitude
  • 11-02-2012
    r1Gel
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by person579 View Post
    are you doing carbon bikes or aluminum because if you are doing aluminum I would like get my hands on a 650b aluminum full supension

    The three bikes pictured above (Norco, Intense, Jamis) are all aluminum. KHS only has alu FS 650B bikes to date.
  • 11-03-2012
    loamranger
    hey francois, can you throw a Nicolai AC 650b into the mix?
  • 11-03-2012
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    This is a good point. It's just that I've had this 2012 Jamis test bike for the last three months. I'll ask them for a new one on Monday.

    fc

    Francois, have you been able to get full travel from the Monarch shock on the Jamis? I've yet to be able to get full travel on my 2011 B2 (bought this year as leftover) even with 30% sag and my 185lb geared up weight. Jamis has not replied back to me about this.

    Other good changes besides stronger frame on the 2013 are the move to a 24/38 crank (on the Pro model) from the 26/39 the previous 2 years, 10mm shorter stems (but still not short enough IMO) and 30mm wider bars @ 700mm now.
  • 11-03-2012
    Cayenne_Pepa
    Wait until you ride the Scott Genius 700......OMG!!!
  • 11-03-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post

    Other good changes besides stronger frame on the 2013 are the move to a 24/38 crank (on the Pro model) from the 26/39 the previous 2 years, 10mm shorter stems (but still not short enough IMO) and 30mm wider bars @ 700mm now.

    HTA still 69* though.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 11-03-2012
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    HTA still 69* though.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Yeah, I would have like to see 68* on the new model.

    Works Components angle set would take care of that and I've already considered it.
  • 11-03-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Yeah, I would have like to see 68* on the new model.

    Works Components angle set would take care of that and I've already considered it.

    What about Cane Creek?


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  • 11-03-2012
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    What about Cane Creek?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Seems to have issues if not installed just perfect. Also adds stack height.

    Works Components has a ZS lower cup but you have to decide the degree you want and lacks the CC adjustability in that way. I'm fine with that.
  • 11-03-2012
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Francois, have you been able to get full travel from the Monarch shock on the Jamis? I've yet to be able to get full travel on my 2011 B2 (bought this year as leftover) even with 30% sag and my 185lb geared up weight. Jamis has not replied back to me about this.

    .

    Have you tried dropping the IFP pressure?. It makes quite a difference.It's only a 5 min job but you need the special adaptor. I've dropped some of my rt3's down to about 50 psi above the main air chamber pressure.

    I also find, even L tune RT3's, respond well to 33 to 35% sag. They have a starchy feel and really smooth out at the lower pressure. I always run them at least 5 psi lower than a pre boost valve rp23 and about 20psi lower than a boost valve rp23.
  • 11-03-2012
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Have you tried dropping the IFP pressure?. It makes quite a difference.It's only a 5 min job but you need the special adaptor. I've dropped some of my rt3's down to about 50 psi above the main air chamber pressure.

    I also find, even L tune RT3's, respond well to 33 to 35% sag. They have a starchy feel and really smooth out at the lower pressure. I always run them at least 5 psi lower than a pre boost valve rp23 and about 20psi lower than a boost valve rp23.

    Please PM me more details. I've no idea about this or how to do it but it seems to make sense and might help. I want to see full travel on hard trail rides that don't include more than 2' drops. Compliant rock and root crawling suspension vs huckability.

    Mine has the MM tune high volume shock
  • 11-03-2012
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Please PM me more details. I've no idea about this or how to do it but it seems to make sense and might help. I want to see full travel on hard trail rides that don't include more than 2' drops. Compliant rock and root crawling suspension vs huckability.

    Mine has the MM tune high volume shock

    Don't think I can PM the links. If all else fails you may have to get a L tune piston. I find it is similar tune to pre boost valve RP23 M tune. I run L comp tune on all my RT3's.You can still use mid platform where need be as it's a smooth transtion when it blows thru.

    Here's some discussion
    http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspen...ge-524727.html

    pg 32 of the manual gives good pics and info. I drop it to no less than 200psi.For consistancy I deflate main chamber first.

    http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct...bBQbug&cad=rja
  • 11-03-2012
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Don't think I can PM the links. If all else fails you may have to get a L tune piston. I find it is similar tune to pre boost valve RP23 M tune. I run L comp tune on all my RT3's.You can still use mid platform where need be as it's a smooth transtion when it blows thru.

    Here's some discussion
    http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspen...ge-524727.html

    pg 32 of the manual gives good pics and info. I drop it to no less than 200psi.For consistancy I deflate main chamber first.

    http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct...rQheYIZkbMkwhg

    Thanks, great info and reading. RS IFP adapter ordered and a rep for you :thumbsup:

    Can't wait to try this :yesnod:
  • 11-03-2012
    gvs_nz
    Oops, I had the wrong manual posted. Thanks for the rep.
  • 11-05-2012
    trailbrain
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    In the future, many will own a 29er hardtail and a 650b All Mountain bike. Both will be awesome and the ride handling transition between them will be manageable.

    fc

    Thank you Francois! This is actually the direction I'm trying to go. Keep my 29er hardtail and build up a 650b for my full suspension. The 26er stays around for my pump track bike. Everything should be dialed after that.
  • 11-05-2012
    fc
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Now I need your advice. I can't make up my mind for the last 2 months.
    Should I build a 650b TRc (got the frame in SC sale) or should sell it, wait and get a 650b dedicated frame?
    I know you have ridden a TRc in 650b for awhile, so what would Francis do?


    If you want a lightweight, light duty 650b, then the TRc is fine. It is carbon fiber and good for 130mm travel front and rear. You'll need smaller tires front and rear like a Pacenti or Nevegal 2.2 to have some room for dirt and mud in the stays and arch.

    Then it will work good. It will be around 26 lbs and you can have the advantages of 650b.

    But if you want more travel, more cush, more tires, then you should wait. The Norco Sight, Range, Intense Tracer are much burlier bikes that can take bigger forks and tires. You can go 150mm travel front rear and put in Hans Dampf tires front and rear. This bike can do a whole lot more if that's what you're looking for.

    fc
  • 11-05-2012
    jazzanova
    a light carbon 650b DW/VPP with 5" travel, that would be nice...