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  1. #51
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    I see awesome in the future of this thread!
    Hardrock 29er, Niner EMD9, Cannondale F29, Camber Expert, 650b Nickel all gone.
    2014 Giant Anthem 27.5 here.

  2. #52
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    [QUOTE=skidad;9833940]Still listed with a 13" BB height

    What do you mean by "contemporary geometry"? Longer TT, reach, WB, etc???

    QUOTE]

    Mainly WB, along with that short front centre,long stem and steepish head angles. It's their signature but it's very pre 29er tight forrest trail bike geometry.has no one told them 29ers are selling in droves because of their stabilty. Post the 29er revolution , 26" bikes are longer slacker and lower.650B is following.

    5 spot and Mojo Hd by now should be at least 1" longer in the wheelbase and 67 and 66 degree head angle respectively.

    Still, they provide plenty of bikes to convert to 650b. Then they handle properly.

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    Ummm the full Mojo HD has 67 deg (160mm fork) or 66 deg (180mm) HA today and its wheelbase is IMHO quite spot on with its 17.1 stays. I run mine at 66deg with a 1deg angleset @ 160mm and I would not want it any slacker or wheelbase longer.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Mainly WB, along with that short front centre,long stem and steepish head angles. It's their signature but it's very pre 29er tight forrest trail bike geometry.has no one told them 29ers are selling in droves because of their stabilty. Post the 29er revolution , 26" bikes are longer slacker and lower.650B is following.

    5 spot and Mojo Hd by now should be at least 1" longer in the wheelbase and 67 and 66 degree head angle respectively.

    Still, they provide plenty of bikes to convert to 650b. Then they handle properly.
    I'm into 650b for 2 years now, have a converted XC 26'er and a Jamis 560B2 both with 69* HTA. The Rip 9 I demoed also steep HTA. Coming off 20 years of riding/racing XC 26'ers, they all felt normal to me.

    So I've never ridden a "proper" new school bike with slack HTA. I'm just old and irrelevant and wondering how I will adjust to a 5 or 6" 650b with 67* HTA. I can imagine not being able to climb, and getting out of my ability zone coming down.

    Somebody please preview what I should expect
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  5. #55
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    a couple of photos

    Intense 275

    Jamis 650b
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 27.5 All Mountain Bike Shootout-pa120001.jpg  

    27.5 All Mountain Bike Shootout-img_5896.jpg  


  6. #56
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    Ummm the full Mojo HD has 67 deg (160mm fork) or 66 deg (180mm) HA today and its wheelbase is IMHO quite spot on with its 17.1 stays. I run mine at 66deg with a 1deg angleset @ 160mm and I would not want it any slacker or wheelbase longer.
    Contemporary AM designs are a full 2" longer in the wheelbase e.g. Meta AM Scott Genius.
    I think you would find a contempoaray 130mm trail bike with the same Geo as the HD handles better in the forrest trail environment. The contemp 130mm suspension designs have changed a lot recently , especially with the boost valve shock, to use more of their travel easier. Hence contemp 130 designs feel like 150mm designs of old but are tighter , more accurate and climb better.

    ACC does wonders on her HD but don't be surprised if disguised under that Pea green paint job some custom Geo tuning. Very easy to do on a frame like the HD.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I'm into 650b for 2 years now, have a converted XC 26'er and a Jamis 560B2 both with 69* HTA. The Rip 9 I demoed also steep HTA. Coming off 20 years of riding/racing XC 26'ers, they all felt normal to me.

    So I've never ridden a "proper" new school bike with slack HTA. I'm just old and irrelevant and wondering how I will adjust to a 5 or 6" 650b with 67* HTA. I can imagine not being able to climb, and getting out of my ability zone coming down.

    Somebody please preview what I should expect
    I'm with you liking 650b at 68 to 69 in forrest trails. Contemp 650b is targeting Enduro bikes so don't expect to many at that head angle. See if you can steal a ride on a 66 to 67 degree 26" bike with relatively lightweight tires[650 to 750g]. You'd be surprised how similar it feels to 650B at 68 degrees.
    When you benchmark against 29ers slack 26" is surprisingly crisp handling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Contemporary AM designs are a full 2" longer in the wheelbase e.g. Meta AM Scott Genius.
    I think you would find a contempoaray 130mm trail bike with the same Geo as the HD handles better in the forrest trail environment. The contemp 130mm suspension designs have changed a lot recently , especially with the boost valve shock, to use more of their travel easier. Hence contemp 130 designs feel like 150mm designs of old but are tighter , more accurate and climb better.

    ACC does wonders on her HD but don't be surprised if disguised under that Pea green paint job some custom Geo tuning. Very easy to do on a frame like the HD.
    It is all a matter of personal preference. I have a short torso - I like shortish TT. I can compare a very contemporary SC Nickel w/ 5" of APP vs. the HD DW-Link. Yes, the APP feels quite bottomless, but it quite sucks at 1x9 because its platform and anti-squat turns the bike into a hard tail in technical climbing. The DW-Link maintains traction like possessed in forest terrain. Also, I highly prefer speed sensitive shock with linear response over a position sensitive shock with a boost valve - again from my limited experience with an Avalanche DHX 5 vs. Float RL / RP23. Boost valves are nothing but a crutch for poor suspension designs IMO.

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    From the pic above it looks like a proper bar width and stem length on the Jamis for testing and not the stock stuff. Dam you Francois with the NN on there already. Have a set on the way from Germany. Little snug at the upper arch huh?

    I've yet to ride one of these new slack bikes and gotta admit for where I live and the conditions I ride I'm more than a little concerned about how well they can hold a tight line and steer vs pushing against something to turn. Our berms here are rocks and roots, anything but smooth. So many of these bike tests are done out west where long, low and slack bikes seem just fine and polar opposite conditions from New England. Still, I'm very excited about this up coming shootout and maybe I can get my cake and eat it to? If I can get a slack bike that turns on a dime, climbs like a mountain goat, 140-150mm travel with a nice BB height so I'm not smacking pedals constantly and sub 30lbs the credit card will be ready. My 3 kids can do without Christmas presents this year I think?????
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    From the pic above it looks like a proper bar width and stem length on the Jamis for testing and not the stock stuff. Dam you Francois with the NN on there already. Have a set on the way from Germany. Little snug at the upper arch huh?

    I've yet to ride one of these new slack bikes and gotta admit for where I live and the conditions I ride I'm more than a little concerned about how well they can hold a tight line and steer vs pushing against something to turn. Our berms here are rocks and roots, anything but smooth. So many of these bike tests are done out west where long, low and slack bikes seem just fine and polar opposite conditions from New England. Still, I'm very excited about this up coming shootout and maybe I can get my cake and eat it to? If I can get a slack bike that turns on a dime, climbs like a mountain goat, 140-150mm travel with a nice BB height so I'm not smacking pedals constantly and sub 30lbs the credit card will be ready. My 3 kids can do without Christmas presents this year I think?????
    Nice dream. RM Altitude? Genius 700? Both having carbon frames with adjustable HTA and BB height.


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  12. #62
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    You're going to love the new 650b/27.5er Scott Genius. I just rode a pre-production prototype....OMG!!!!
    "The ONLY person who needs to race.....is the entrant"

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    Looking forward to this...

  14. #64
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    2013 - The year of 650b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    You're going to love the new 650b/27.5er Scott Genius. I just rode a pre-production prototype....OMG!!!!
    Yess!! I rode the Scott Genius 700 aluminum in Vegas. It was very awesome. Hopefully, I get a carbon one to test.

    2013 Scott Genius 700 – 650b Ride Report | Mountain Bike Review

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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    2013 - The year of 650b
    I've ridden many of these all mountain 650b bikes now and I can say that they are going to take over the All Mountain world. They are just soo good and it's propelled by a wave of energy that is supplying amazing forks and tires.

    The real bullseye for 650b (at least for 2013) is 5-6" bikes. At those travel levels, 29ers are just not that good. A 6" 29er with big tires is not awesome. A 650b bike at in that category is agile, capable and fun.

    29ers will continue to dominate hardtails and short travel xc bikes. They are really good in that category.

    26ers will hang on for sizing and big travel legacy reasons so they won't go away. There will be minimal growth however.

    In the future, many will own a 29er hardtail and a 650b All Mountain bike. Both will be awesome and the ride handling transition between them will be manageable.

    The only real issue will be supply. These small/medium companies will not be able to make them fast enough for 2013. And I don't think there will be any opportunity to test ride.

    The huge bike companies will jump on board (i hope) but they need time. They need time to do carbon fiber molds and make their own wheels and tires.

    fc

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I've ridden many of these all mountain 650b bikes now and I can say that they are going to take over the All Mountain world. They are just soo good and it's propelled by a wave of energy that is supplying amazing forks and tires.

    The real bullseye for 650b (at least for 2013) is 5-6" bikes. At those travel levels, 29ers are just not that good. A 6" 29er with big tires is not awesome. A 650b bike at in that category is agile, capable and fun.

    29ers will continue to dominate hardtails and short travel xc bikes. They are really good in that category.

    26ers will hang on for sizing and big travel legacy reasons so they won't go away. There will be minimal growth however.

    In the future, many will own a 29er hardtail and a 650b All Mountain bike. Both will be awesome and the ride handling transition between them will be manageable.

    The only real issue will be supply. These small/medium companies will not be able to make them fast enough for 2013. And I don't think there will be any opportunity to test ride.

    The huge bike companies will jump on board (i hope) but they need time. They need time to do carbon fiber molds and make their own wheels and tires.

    fc
    Now I need your advice. I can't make up my mind for the last 2 months.
    Should I build a 650b TRc (got the frame in SC sale) or should sell it, wait and get a 650b dedicated frame?
    I know you have ridden a TRc in 650b for awhile, so what would Francis do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The Sight is 29.6 lbs bone stock without pedals. It has a chain an MRP chain guide and a Reverb dropping post and Hans Dampf tires.

    I changed the tires, saddle, cogset and got it down to 28 lbs.

    My son is 5'5" and I'm 5'8". It fits me perfect and it's just a hair big for him.
    Thanks for the reply.
    Interesting. So I guess the medium would fit me (even though I have unusually long legs and a short torso for a male )
    'eagerly anticipating the article.

    edit: FWIW that's a pound heavier than Norco's "target" weight
    Last edited by r1Gel; 11-02-2012 at 11:15 PM.
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  19. #69
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    2013 RM Altitude. Very curious what thoughts are as this may be a strong consideration from local bike shop for my son. Look forward to the comparisons

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Now I need your advice. I can't make up my mind for the last 2 months.
    Should I build a 650b TRc (got the frame in SC sale) or should sell it, wait and get a 650b dedicated frame?
    I know you have ridden a TRc in 650b for awhile, so what would Francis do?
    If I were you, I would give it a shot. You already have the frame, you can get some pretty decent wheel sets in the classifieds from time to time (I would jump on those crests/chris king hubs if I were you), the rest of the components are the same for both wheel sizes. Building and riding the TRc will let you better understand what exactly you want from the new wave of (not inexpensive) 650b trail/AM bikes IMO.

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    Curious why you are testing the last generation of the Jamis 650b platform....the frame is completely redesigned for 2013 and is supposed to be substantially stiffer (laterally) while also shedding a little weight.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie View Post
    I might suggest including a well reputed 26" AM/trailbike in the shootout (sooo MBA) as a control.
    That's a really good idea. Also, how about a Genius 900 or other similar 29'er,?


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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Jamis, intense, norco in house.

    Scott, Rocky Mountain, khs coming.

    Turner is being redesigned and due in Dec.

    When you say redesigned for the Turner what are you referencing? The build kit or the geometry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailbrain View Post
    When you say redesigned for the Turner what are you referencing? The build kit or the geometry?
    BB height. Proto's were 12.75" and the new ones will be 13"

    Not gonna see many Turner Burners sold in New England It's a different world here and closer to 14" would be better
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

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    I need a lot of popcorn to see this shootout.

    I have my heart set on the carbine 27.5 But I love free market this is true American.

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    are you doing carbon bikes or aluminum because if you are doing aluminum I would like get my hands on a 650b aluminum full supension

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    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    It is all a matter of personal preference. I have a short torso - I like shortish TT. I can compare a very contemporary SC Nickel w/ 5" of APP vs. the HD DW-Link. Yes, the APP feels quite bottomless, but it quite sucks at 1x9 because its platform and anti-squat turns the bike into a hard tail in technical climbing. The DW-Link maintains traction like possessed in forest terrain. Also, I highly prefer speed sensitive shock with linear response over a position sensitive shock with a boost valve - again from my limited experience with an Avalanche DHX 5 vs. Float RL / RP23. Boost valves are nothing but a crutch for poor suspension designs IMO.
    You made a good choice with the HD for riding seated over lots of tree roots. It rides high but settles into it's travel well and sucks up those sharp edge rollover objects.My Meta 6 is good for that as it has a similar suspension curve but with a lot more antisquat than the HD.

    I would consider the Blur TRc suspension performance contemporary, not the Nickel.The TRc has more antisquat but settles deeper into it's travel much easier.From about 50mm of travel it 's suspension curve is almost identical to the HD.The nickel ramps up quite a bit more is than both from 40mm onwards.

    I'm with you on boost valve shocks but for the opposite reason. The boost valve shock needs to be paired with a good contemparary suspension design.I can see where your coming from if you had to use it like a CTD shock.They would be terrible on a poor suspension design unless you are always reaching down and switching modes. Ive only got one bike where it works really well. The rest of my bikes I've replaced all my boost valve rp23's with RT3's
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 11-02-2012 at 05:21 PM.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post

    26ers will hang on for sizing and big travel legacy reasons so they won't go away. There will be minimal growth however.

    fc
    Currently Schwalbe disagree with you. Their 26" tire range is still the biggest by far and it's getting bigger with snakeskin being added to Ro Ro.

  29. #79
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    At least some Aluminum

    The Foes and Turners only come in aluminum and I believe it was said that the Tracer 275 will be included so that would be 3 Aluminum bikes involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by person579 View Post
    are you doing carbon bikes or aluminum because if you are doing aluminum I would like get my hands on a 650b aluminum full supension

  30. #80
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    At least some Aluminum

    The Foes and Turners only come in aluminum and I believe it was said that the Tracer 275 will be included so that would be 3 Aluminum bikes involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by person579 View Post
    are you doing carbon bikes or aluminum because if you are doing aluminum I would like get my hands on a 650b aluminum full supension

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowrider View Post
    The Foes and Turners only come in aluminum and I believe it was said that the Tracer 275 will be included so that would be 3 Aluminum bikes involved.
    If I'm not mistaken, the Norco Sight and Range only come in aluminium as well. The Scott Genuis and the RM Altitude have both carbon and aluminium options.


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  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Currently Schwalbe disagree with you. Their 26" tire range is still the biggest by far and it's getting bigger with snakeskin being added to Ro Ro.
    26er will be the biggest category for many component companies for a while. But that will be more because of legacy.

    Notice that not many new products will be introduced there. Schwalbe for example will not have any new 26er tread patterns. But they will have six new 650b ones next year.

    fc

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reforminded View Post
    Curious why you are testing the last generation of the Jamis 650b platform....the frame is completely redesigned for 2013 and is supposed to be substantially stiffer (laterally) while also shedding a little weight.
    This is a good point. It's just that I've had this 2012 Jamis test bike for the last three months. I'll ask them for a new one on Monday.

    fc

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    Subscribed. Great thread. Really interested in the feedback on the RM Altitude

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    Quote Originally Posted by person579 View Post
    are you doing carbon bikes or aluminum because if you are doing aluminum I would like get my hands on a 650b aluminum full supension
    The three bikes pictured above (Norco, Intense, Jamis) are all aluminum. KHS only has alu FS 650B bikes to date.
    Better to have and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

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    hey francois, can you throw a Nicolai AC 650b into the mix?
    Last edited by loamranger; 11-03-2012 at 11:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    This is a good point. It's just that I've had this 2012 Jamis test bike for the last three months. I'll ask them for a new one on Monday.

    fc
    Francois, have you been able to get full travel from the Monarch shock on the Jamis? I've yet to be able to get full travel on my 2011 B2 (bought this year as leftover) even with 30% sag and my 185lb geared up weight. Jamis has not replied back to me about this.

    Other good changes besides stronger frame on the 2013 are the move to a 24/38 crank (on the Pro model) from the 26/39 the previous 2 years, 10mm shorter stems (but still not short enough IMO) and 30mm wider bars @ 700mm now.
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  38. #88
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    Wait until you ride the Scott Genius 700......OMG!!!
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  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post

    Other good changes besides stronger frame on the 2013 are the move to a 24/38 crank (on the Pro model) from the 26/39 the previous 2 years, 10mm shorter stems (but still not short enough IMO) and 30mm wider bars @ 700mm now.
    HTA still 69* though.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    HTA still 69* though.


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    Yeah, I would have like to see 68* on the new model.

    Works Components angle set would take care of that and I've already considered it.
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Yeah, I would have like to see 68* on the new model.

    Works Components angle set would take care of that and I've already considered it.
    What about Cane Creek?


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  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    What about Cane Creek?


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    Seems to have issues if not installed just perfect. Also adds stack height.

    Works Components has a ZS lower cup but you have to decide the degree you want and lacks the CC adjustability in that way. I'm fine with that.
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Francois, have you been able to get full travel from the Monarch shock on the Jamis? I've yet to be able to get full travel on my 2011 B2 (bought this year as leftover) even with 30% sag and my 185lb geared up weight. Jamis has not replied back to me about this.

    .
    Have you tried dropping the IFP pressure?. It makes quite a difference.It's only a 5 min job but you need the special adaptor. I've dropped some of my rt3's down to about 50 psi above the main air chamber pressure.

    I also find, even L tune RT3's, respond well to 33 to 35% sag. They have a starchy feel and really smooth out at the lower pressure. I always run them at least 5 psi lower than a pre boost valve rp23 and about 20psi lower than a boost valve rp23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Have you tried dropping the IFP pressure?. It makes quite a difference.It's only a 5 min job but you need the special adaptor. I've dropped some of my rt3's down to about 50 psi above the main air chamber pressure.

    I also find, even L tune RT3's, respond well to 33 to 35% sag. They have a starchy feel and really smooth out at the lower pressure. I always run them at least 5 psi lower than a pre boost valve rp23 and about 20psi lower than a boost valve rp23.
    Please PM me more details. I've no idea about this or how to do it but it seems to make sense and might help. I want to see full travel on hard trail rides that don't include more than 2' drops. Compliant rock and root crawling suspension vs huckability.

    Mine has the MM tune high volume shock
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Please PM me more details. I've no idea about this or how to do it but it seems to make sense and might help. I want to see full travel on hard trail rides that don't include more than 2' drops. Compliant rock and root crawling suspension vs huckability.

    Mine has the MM tune high volume shock
    Don't think I can PM the links. If all else fails you may have to get a L tune piston. I find it is similar tune to pre boost valve RP23 M tune. I run L comp tune on all my RT3's.You can still use mid platform where need be as it's a smooth transtion when it blows thru.

    Here's some discussion
    Monarch & IFP pressure change...

    pg 32 of the manual gives good pics and info. I drop it to no less than 200psi.For consistancy I deflate main chamber first.

    http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct...bBQbug&cad=rja
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 11-03-2012 at 06:30 PM.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Don't think I can PM the links. If all else fails you may have to get a L tune piston. I find it is similar tune to pre boost valve RP23 M tune. I run L comp tune on all my RT3's.You can still use mid platform where need be as it's a smooth transtion when it blows thru.

    Here's some discussion
    Monarch & IFP pressure change...

    pg 32 of the manual gives good pics and info. I drop it to no less than 200psi.For consistancy I deflate main chamber first.

    http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct...rQheYIZkbMkwhg
    Thanks, great info and reading. RS IFP adapter ordered and a rep for you

    Can't wait to try this
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

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    Oops, I had the wrong manual posted. Thanks for the rep.

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    In the future, many will own a 29er hardtail and a 650b All Mountain bike. Both will be awesome and the ride handling transition between them will be manageable.

    fc
    Thank you Francois! This is actually the direction I'm trying to go. Keep my 29er hardtail and build up a 650b for my full suspension. The 26er stays around for my pump track bike. Everything should be dialed after that.

  49. #99
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Now I need your advice. I can't make up my mind for the last 2 months.
    Should I build a 650b TRc (got the frame in SC sale) or should sell it, wait and get a 650b dedicated frame?
    I know you have ridden a TRc in 650b for awhile, so what would Francis do?

    If you want a lightweight, light duty 650b, then the TRc is fine. It is carbon fiber and good for 130mm travel front and rear. You'll need smaller tires front and rear like a Pacenti or Nevegal 2.2 to have some room for dirt and mud in the stays and arch.

    Then it will work good. It will be around 26 lbs and you can have the advantages of 650b.

    But if you want more travel, more cush, more tires, then you should wait. The Norco Sight, Range, Intense Tracer are much burlier bikes that can take bigger forks and tires. You can go 150mm travel front rear and put in Hans Dampf tires front and rear. This bike can do a whole lot more if that's what you're looking for.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 27.5 All Mountain Bike Shootout-pb040245.jpg  


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    a light carbon 650b DW/VPP with 5" travel, that would be nice...
    Last edited by jazzanova; 11-05-2012 at 09:39 PM.

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