Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 171
  1. #1
    Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
    Reputation: PHeller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    852

    Specialized Enduro 29 and The Effect on 650b

    I secretly didn't want Specialized to release an Enduro 29, because I had my heart set on a Norco Range Killer-B and although the Norco is still the best deal in mountain biking today, the big wheeled Enduro will be very tempting.

    Why? Long travel 150mm+ full suspension 29ers were always in the realm of boutique manufactures like Banshee and Lenz, and they still had the problem with chainstay length. Specialized has remedied this by both an economy of scale (cheaper bikes) and the "Taco Blade" derailure mount that allows for a shorter chainstays.

    Now, I still understand that big wheels will naturally have that gyroscopic effect that keeps the bike from being as playful in the air, and that can be one of the best things about a long travel all-mountain bike, but for those in the market for a bike that tackle drops, rock gardens, and other technical features, while still maintain the roll-over and momentum of the big wheel, a 150mm full suspension 29er is certainly something to think about. I really want a fun and playful bike, but garage space is limited and the quiver bike has got to satisfy many needs.

    So, will 650b still be your next bike?
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  2. #2
    Hard funkinī Kraut
    Reputation: NoStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    729
    Yes!

    Regardless of the Specialized-Power they can put into the Market and have Influence - it is still up to you what to buy and to Ride. 29ers are going a great Route with the Primes and upcoming Enduros, but I`m going to stick with 26 and 650B, as these Wheelsizes feel somehow more natural to me, with enough Benefits of the 650B-Wheel to work great for my Kind of Riding.

    If you think Longtravel 29ers are the way to go - just go for it.

    My main Concern is simply Specialized, Giant or Trek having the massive Power to force or let die or influence things like Standards, Wheelsizes and such ...

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    330
    I remember reading a quote from Walt that said something like bigger is always better. The knock on 29ers is that the big wheels aren't playful enough and they have trouble in tight situations. Is Specialized gambling that their size and marketing can put a stop to the 27.5, or do they truly feel that if there needs to be an All Mountain/Trail alternative to 26......bigger is better? Could be they were so far down the road of development they couldn't change course? I certainly haven't spent enough time on 29ers to know the limits of the wheel size, but it seems to me a high flange hub and carbon rim would be a requirement for aggressive riding. In my limited time on them, they felt tall and gave me an over the bars feeling on technical descends. Not sure how they could make those giant wheels feel smaller.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    699
    The Enduro's wheelbase is almost 46" long in a medium - its not that short...

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Deerhill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,355
    If there was a 20mm axle lyrik 29, or 650b tires, this would get even more interesting
    Last edited by Deerhill; 02-27-2013 at 10:40 PM.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    138
    doesnt change anything for me. 29ers are still to big and slow (laterally) for steep and technical terrain for me... for smooth trails with moderate grades they are great for going fast, but 650b is still a great balance imo.

  7. #7
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,116
    I think I probably said you should ride the biggest wheels you can without making awful tradeoffs in terms of frame geometry/fit. There's not a line in the sand that says "you don't fit on these wheels/this much travel" but for long travel (130mm+) 29ers most riders under 5'9" or so are going to have problems (though everyone is unique, so there's no way to know without trying one).

    Then again, most smaller folks won't fit well on, say, a Karpiel Armageddon either. You can blow past someone's geometry comfort zone lots of ways!

    FWIW, gyroscopic forces have almost zero to do with how a bike works or handles - the weight of the rider and the effects of front and rear wheel trail are way, way too great. The difference in gyroscopic forces between 26" and 650b and 29" is negligible in the grand scheme of bike handling, frame geometry is what you should be looking at.

    -Walt



    Quote Originally Posted by smellurfingers View Post
    I remember reading a quote from Walt that said something like bigger is always better. The knock on 29ers is that the big wheels aren't playful enough and they have trouble in tight situations. Is Specialized gambling that their size and marketing can put a stop to the 27.5, or do they truly feel that if there needs to be an All Mountain/Trail alternative to 26......bigger is better? Could be they were so far down the road of development they couldn't change course? I certainly haven't spent enough time on 29ers to know the limits of the wheel size, but it seems to me a high flange hub and carbon rim would be a requirement for aggressive riding. In my limited time on them, they felt tall and gave me an over the bars feeling on technical descends. Not sure how they could make those giant wheels feel smaller.
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  8. #8
    Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
    Reputation: PHeller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    852
    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    FWIW, gyroscopic forces have almost zero to do with how a bike works or handles - the weight of the rider and the effects of front and rear wheel trail are way, way too great. The difference in gyroscopic forces between 26" and 650b and 29" is negligible in the grand scheme of bike handling, frame geometry is what you should be looking at.
    Walt, why is it then when we see folks like Cedric Garcia ripping on a 29er Tallboy that he doesn't seem to moving the bike much while in the air? That's what I meant by gyroscopic forces, the nature of the wheel to stay on the vertical plane, where guys on 20" bikes can move the bike all over the place while in the air. Is that just a product of the a smaller bike?
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  9. #9
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,969

    Specialized Enduro 29 and The Effect on 650b

    I figured Spesh would do an end run around 27.5" with a long travel 29". Spesh was loud and clear all along that it was not impressed with the tweener platform and together with SC actively trashed it last summer and fall. If Spesh, Trek, Giant and SC continue to push 29" from XC bikes to Trail through AM, 27.5" will have to do something dramatic to stay alive in the general market. Like win a shitload of races in XC, Enduro and DH and get a ton of bike mag and social media good press.

    I've been a long time 650b advocate, but to be honest, if I can get a Spesh Enduro for $500+ less than a comparable 27.5", I'll take the 29", and put the savings in into carbon rims. If the Enduro also weighs less stock than the 27.5", I'm done hook line and sinker.

    I really think the 27.5" companies shot themselves in the foot this year with overly expensive and generally heavy offerings.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by dwt; 02-27-2013 at 04:15 PM.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    330
    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I think I probably said you should ride the biggest wheels you can without making awful tradeoffs in terms of frame geometry/fit. There's not a line in the sand that says "you don't fit on these wheels/this much travel" but for long travel (130mm+) 29ers most riders under 5'9" or so are going to have problems (though everyone is unique, so there's no way to know without trying one).

    Then again, most smaller folks won't fit well on, say, a Karpiel Armageddon either. You can blow past someone's geometry comfort zone lots of ways!

    FWIW, gyroscopic forces have almost zero to do with how a bike works or handles - the weight of the rider and the effects of front and rear wheel trail are way, way too great. The difference in gyroscopic forces between 26" and 650b and 29" is negligible in the grand scheme of bike handling, frame geometry is what you should be looking at.

    -Walt
    Thanks for clearing that up.

    With regards to height and the 29er. Is it stand over height that makes, for instance 150mm 29er, a tough fit for someone 5-9 or less, or would it be just the ratio of height to tire size?

    Thanks

  11. #11
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,116
    I am guessing that (I haven't watched a MTB video in years but I watched him get 2nd in dual slalom at Vail World's...) has to do with the type of bike (Tallboy LTC is really an aggro XC/light trail bike) and the type of trail he happens to be on. In general, the bigger the bike the harder it is to do tabletops/tricks/etc, which is why you see 6'5" BMX pros on 20" wheels with their "saddles" all the way down. The wheels themselves aren't the deciding factor but the overall size of the bike can make it harder (or easier) to do tricks in the air and smaller wheels let you build a smaller frame.

    If you are regularly getting enough air time to do full tabletop type tricks and worry about that sort of stuff, you aren't really doing what *most* people consider "mountain biking" anymore so we've wandered way off topic.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  12. #12
    NedwannaB
    Reputation: JMac47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    8,671
    Seems to me the Enduro would be a perfect fit for the 27.5" platform, whether it be for Trail, Enduro or AMtn use.
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  13. #13
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,116
    It's mostly a combination of wheelbase and front center (things just get too long on big wheels as the rider size goes down) with some standover problems thrown in.

    Standover doesn't matter much (if you can get on the bike, and off the bike, you're basically good) but some people aren't comfortable mentally if they don't have a decent amount of it, so it's sometimes a factor too.

    The wheelbase and front center getting too long is much worse, because it gets really hard to move your weight around between the wheels effectively, so you have trouble doing things like bunnyhopping and manualing (assuming you can do those things in the first place) and it's also hard to keep enough weight on, say, the front wheel in a hard turn, so you wash out all over the place. So the weight distribution tends to be the bigger problem.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Salespunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,877
    It is all what the rider is used to. I am a 26" fanboy, but if you went purely on gyroscopic effect then motos would not be able to do half of what they do. Not only is there gyro effect in the heavy wheels, it is also in the motor on dirt bikes. Take a look at a moto scrub or whip and you will see it is not the wheel size or weight that holds anyone back from throwing a bike around.

    The Enduro is very cool looking bike and should be very interesting competitively with the Intense Spider Comp.

  15. #15
    Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
    Reputation: PHeller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    852
    Salespunk,

    Good point about the motocross aspect on gyroscopic forces, those guys are pretty nuts and they certainly have far more weight to work against.
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: reformed roadie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    1,445
    When Aaron Gwin wins the DH World Cup on a 29er, I'll sit up and take notice.

    Till then, I'll stick with 650b.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    67
    Whatever the cause, its fair to say that 29ers just don't handle the same as 26ers. The same can be said about 26ers v. BMX. Not to say one is better than the other.. they're just different. There will always be preferences amongst riders for how they want their bikes to feel. That's why we have different suspension travel (or none at all), different geo, difference tire tread, tire width, the list goes on. I really don't understand why all the angst and hate about excessive wheel diameter choice. I have skied on skis of 67mm, 75mm, 89mm, 93mm, 95mm, 99mm, 103mm, 107mm, 109mm, 112mm, 116mm and 122mm waists. Different lengths, different shapes. I had fun on lots of them. What's the problem with choice?? I truly hope that Specialized et al don't push choice out from the equation.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gunner.989's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    52
    This Bike isent going to affect 650B, 29ers are for the 29er crowd who enjoy the traits of the big wheels 650b is for the 26er crowd who want the same feeling of a 26er with the added benefits of a bigger tire. I hope this year one of the big 3 come out with a 650b bike and push the new wheel even futher and look at Merida Bikes who owns 49 percent of specialized bikes have 650b bikes and theres more then just the USA driving the mountain Bike Market what about Europe and the rest of the world oh and I might be a bit biased towards 650b.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,814
    I had a Niner RIP9 then I went to a WFO9. The RIP9 was an excellent all-around bike, but the WFO9 felt a little too hard to manual and was just a little too unwieldy for me. (And that's in a size Large). So based on that experience, I'm leaning towards a 650B with 160mm travel for an AM/FR bike. However, I do have to say that I have no problems getting massive air on my 29ers. I can't understand why people have an issue with the wheel size for jumping. Or for technical terrain. Maybe those people have never actually ridden a 29er? I'm just personally skeptical of 29ers with 140mm or more of travel unless you are a point and shoot kind of rider and don't loft the front end very often.

  20. #20
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,116
    It would be interesting to see what you thought of the Enduro29 - chainstays a full INCH shorter than your WFO might solve that problem.

    I've had a 6" travel 29" setup with 43cm chainstays for a few years now and getting that wheel under you where it needs to be for weight distribution is a big, big deal. I could never understand how average-sized people could stand the 46+cm chainstay FS 29ers that are out there. I would use that sort of length for someone in the 6'6" range and up, but for a dead-average 5'11" guy or 5'8" gal? Awful.

    -Walt
    Last edited by Walt; 02-27-2013 at 06:04 PM.
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    99
    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Seems to me the Enduro would be a perfect fit for the 27.5" platform, whether it be for Trail, Enduro or AMtn use.
    I saw an article about 6 months ago that claimed to have spied a Spesh Enduro set up with 650B wheels at an Enduro somewhere in Europe. There were a few very good pics and I can't recall the rider whose bike they were photographing, but the sites that ran the story all had it yanked within a day or two.

    The big boys are going to put out 650B rides, and the prices of these bikes that are available today will fall in line.

  22. #22
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    3,987
    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie View Post
    When Aaron Gwin wins the DH World Cup on a 29er, I'll sit up and take notice.

    Till then, I'll stick with 650b.
    Really? Did someone win a DH World Cup race on a 650b rig?

    Your logic seems suspect.

  23. #23
    just some guy
    Reputation: talabardio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    I think we'll see a huge influx of 650b in the coming year in all shapes and sizes. As their slower product development cycle catches up, Specialized will suddenly "see the light" and dip a few enduro and all-mountain toes into the 650b waters.

  24. #24
    Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
    Reputation: PHeller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    852
    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPhatrick View Post
    I saw an article about 6 months ago that claimed to have spied a Spesh Enduro set up with 650B wheels at an Enduro somewhere in Europe. There were a few very good pics and I can't recall the rider whose bike they were photographing, but the sites that ran the story all had it yanked within a day or two.
    I probably posted those pictures on this site. They came from an European rumors site, and it was hard to distinguish if they were 650B or 29.

    Now that I see some of the press release photos, I think what we may have seen a few months ago might have been the Enduro 29 being tested.
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rob_co2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    563
    One of the major faults of larger wheels that nobody has mentioned is the inability to lift the wheel up and over stuff. I've gotten used to it on my 650, but its the one thing that I know a 26 does better.

    Anyway, back to the point. I seem to notice the price of 29ers and parts has fallen through the floor in the last couple of years, while the 2013 650s are fetching very high prices.
    From a financial standpoint, its actually a bad move for the big companies to jump into the 650 market early. Most of their buyers aren't the experimental type and will not buy into 650b until it reaches full mainstream support (read, until magazines and shop employees are telling them that 650b is the better choice). And since the big companies have such a big share of the consumers, why not wait until the fruit is ripe for the picking. But that way they don't have the risk, if it does turn into a failure they haven't made major investments.
    I'd bet any amount of money that each of them have their R&D teams practicing and working out kinks of 650b geometry, and their strategists drawing up a multi-year roll out plan that only sells the high end stuff to begin with but then trickles down to lower end.
    Last edited by rob_co2; 02-27-2013 at 11:29 PM.

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •