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  1. #1
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    Scientific 650b vs 26 study completed

    I posted this as a reply in another post but figured it could use it's own if for nothing more than to get flamed for my sarcasm of saying it is a scientific study

    ROLL is alot better, to the tune of 3-5 seconds faster on a 3 minute Enduro style DH trail (Strava verified ;-))....My carbine with 650b, 10 miles X 3 of ups and downs like this:

    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles
    Carbine 26" Easton Haven Carbon Nobby Nics front rear 10 miles
    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles

    over three days of riding 10 miles each day spaced out over a week so as to not crush my legs from pushing race pace. The 650b was consistently 3-5 seconds faster per run on each of the 4 Enduro Style DH runs we have here locally that I am intimately familiar with all the lines and tracks.....So yes 650b is faster and this was scientific

    Where it was faster was specifically in carrying momentum through turns and over rough stuff, period. I exited turns faster than on the Easton Carbon 26's and carried my speed over rocks and roots much better, to the tune of usually needing to pedal immediately on the 26" wheels to where as the 650b's allowed me to flow faster and farther while conserving my legs.....Hope this helps, Hito.
    Last edited by OneEyedHito; 12-08-2012 at 09:59 AM. Reason: Dotting my eyes and crossing my Tea's

  2. #2
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    Your PHD is now verified!

    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    I posted this as a reply in another post but figured it could use it's own if for nothing more than to get flamed for my sarcasm of saying it is a scientific study

    ROLL is alot better, to the tune of 3-5 seconds faster on a 3 minute Enduro style DH trail (Strava verified ;-))....My carbine with 650b, 10 miles X 3 of ups and downs like this:

    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles
    Carbine 26" Easton Haven Carbon Nobby Nics front rear 10 miles
    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles

    over three days of riding 10 miles each day spaced out over a week so as to not crush my legs from pushing race pace. The 650b was consistently 3-5 seconds faster per run on each of the 4 Enduro Style DH runs we have here locally that I am intimately familiar with all the lines and tracks.....So yes 650b is faster and this was scientific

    Where it was faster was specifically in carrying momentum through turns and over rough stuff, period. I exited turns faster than on the Eason Carbon 26's and carried my speed over rocks and roots much better, to the tune of usually needing to pedal immediately on the 26" wheels to where as the 650b's allowed me to flow faster and farther while conserving my legs.....Hope this helps, Hito.
    650's FTW!
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  3. #3
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    Now you need to do 29er vs. 650b
    Check out my riding blog:

    http://onetrailatatime.blogspot.com

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggilings View Post
    Now you need to do 29er vs. 650b
    I haven't done the 3X3 over a week just like I did above but I did break out my Tallboy LTc a few weeks ago and ran some Strava's on most of these same trails....The TB LTc is flat out FASTER, than either 26 or 27.5 Carbine setup with Schwalbe's and Easton Haven Carbon 29ers, and Cane Creek DBAir's......you could say I have my personal preference on components yes.......and the TB LTc was Faster period, but not nearly as fun.....now the turns (berms and flats) it was slower but it just goes so much faster when at speed, now with that said, MY TIMES WEREN'T faster but the bike was in most sections...if you know what I mean.

    Hito

  5. #5
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    What were the Schwalbes on the TB LTc?

  6. #6
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    HD's

  7. #7
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    I can verify Hito's testing. I was there for some of it. Hito is also getting faster. (on any wheelsize)
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  8. #8
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    To make sure I understand, you did runs on three different days. On each day you did three runs, each about 10 miles long. You alternated, one run on 650b, one on 26, and one on 650b? That's not nearly enough runs to be statistically meaningful. A good rule of thumb is seven. Seven of each gets you enough information begin to draw conclusions (except when events are very rare, differences are relatively small, or variability is very high), after that the marginal benefits of more data points falls off asymptotically.

    Did you consider the effects of the tires on rolling resistance? Do you feel you can corner more aggressively with the Nevegal or the Nick in front? Would it be possible to find and test the same tires (size, casing, compound) in the two different sizes? If not, can you quantify the effect of the different tires separately from that of the different wheel size?

    What was the average time of the 650b runs? What was the average time of the 26" run? What were their standard deviations? What t-statistic would you get from a two-tailed unpaired t-test, to judge whether the difference was "consistent" or just random variation?

    I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that being "scientific" is a real pain in the ass.

    The more important question is about fun. On which bike did you have the most fun? All other data points are just noise.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazarus2405 View Post
    To make sure I understand, you did runs on three different days. On each day you did three runs, each about 10 miles long. You alternated, one run on 650b, one on 26, and one on 650b?

    Did you consider the effects of the tires on rolling resistance? Do you feel you can corner more aggressively with the Nevegal or the Nick in front? Would it be possible to find and test the same tires (size, casing, compound) in the two different sizes? If not, can you quantify the effect of the different tires separately from that of the different wheel size?

    What was the average time of the 650b runs? What was the average time of the 26" run? What were their standard deviations? What t-statistic would you get from a two-tailed unpaired t-test, to judge whether the difference was "consistent" or just random variation?

    I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that being "scientific" is a pain in the ass.

    The more important question is about fun. On which bike did you have the most fun? All other data points are just noise.
    The Runs were exclusive to each wheel size each day with the 27.5 wheels size getting in 20 miles that week and the 26 wheels getting in 10 miles that week each 10 miles consisted of the same up and down over the same trails so legs were tasked equally for each wheel size based on terrain but not wheel size...........the difference was "consistent" and not random based on the constitution of the compounds used in conjunction with the confabulation of more than 30 congruent miles utilizing 6 total circular discs with another 6 smaller circular metallurgies all the while being configmented together into one big 'C' Word.........in other words the real answer is:

    In a three point cross the number of observed double crossovers divided by the number expected based on the observed occurrence of single crossovers. The ratio of the observed number of double recombinants to the expected number.

    The 27.5 Wheels were the most fun 'conclusively'. They maintain the flick-ability and twitchiness of the 26 wheels while carrying speed more fluidly

  10. #10
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    Fock meh 1eyed!

    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    The Runs were exclusive to each wheel size each day with the 27.5 wheels size getting in 20 miles that week and the 26 wheels getting in 10 miles that week each 10 miles consisted of the same up and down over the same trails so legs were tasked equally for each wheel size based on terrain but not wheel size...........the difference was "consistent" and not random based on the constitution of the compounds used in conjunction with the confabulation of more than 30 congruent miles utilizing 6 total circular discs with another 6 smaller circular metallurgies all the while being configmented together into one big 'C' Word.........in other words the real answer is:

    In a three point cross the number of observed double crossovers divided by the number expected based on the observed occurrence of single crossovers. The ratio of the observed number of double recombinants to the expected number.

    The 27.5 Wheels were the most fun 'conclusively'. They maintain the flick-ability and twitchiness of the 26 wheels while carrying speed more fluidly
    Damn that's sure sounding Scientific to me alright!
    Last edited by JMac47; 12-07-2012 at 07:29 PM. Reason: typo
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    HD's
    They're in a different league no matter what wheel size.Presuming the 26" were Hd's as well? When are you getting some 650B HD's for a good comparison.

  12. #12
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    I don't buy it.
    Its all placebo effect. If it makes you ride faster, or enjoy your ride more, then who the frack cares.

  13. #13
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    Turbo the placebo effect in clinical trials still produces results and it has even been known to cure disease. As for me, I guess you can't fix stupid

  14. #14
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    Preaching to the choir Hito....
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    Turbo the placebo effect in clinical trials still produces results and it has even been known to cure disease. As for me, I guess you can't fix stupid
    I wouldn't get to carried away. All you've proved to yourself is that your 650b setup is faster than your 26" wheels/ tires[ whatever they are?]on your carbine, on your trails . Could be different with same 26" wheels/ tires on a slacker , lower longer 26" bike. Even more so on the Dh with heavier 26" tires. Add to that you've proved that the heavier 29er wheel/tires are not as nimble as your 650b wheels/ tires.Once again proving that your 29er set up is not as quick on your trails.

    QED.

    Seen it all before in the Church of the 29er.

    When I was racing I used to do the same sort of trials with various tires and wheel sizes , tubed and tubeless setups[ never with a gps though, too erratic]. Once again i proved to myself what was quickest set up on my trails. Nothing more.


    I'm a fan boy of all 3 sizes. IMHO the big benefit of 650B is it gives the best compromise in weight, vs cornering traction and stability, and a little bit of extra rollover. Something that obviously works well on your carbine, on your trails.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 12-07-2012 at 11:12 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    Turbo the placebo effect in clinical trials still produces results and it has even been known to cure disease. As for me, I guess you can't fix stupid
    You're right. I can't argue with someone that just "wants to believe", and it isn't my place to disprove anyone's beliefs. Its like trying to discuss religion. You are obviously convinced you made the right choice for yourself.
    Maybe someday soon, the only wheel choice available will be 650b, eliminating any other possible choices...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post

    The 27.5 Wheels were the most fun 'conclusively'. They maintain the flick-ability and twitchiness of the 26 wheels while carrying speed more fluidly
    This is really the bottom line for
    most of us (who do not race) the subjective factor of what is the most fun, personally. Varies with rider & the specific terrain. You can't quantify "fun"
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  18. #18
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    For those that saw my tongue in my cheek, kudo's to you, and for those that take themselves too seriously, may you someday find your Truth.........Mine is out there somewhere, at least so says Scully and Mulder

    DWT That Zen Proverb is my favorite btw, understanding it is a part of my qualifications list for my circle of trust (Meet the Fockers reference), the only thing I recall from that movie.

    Butt seriously I am thinking if they could make a 27.5 tire that actually measures 28.25" at the centertread, then we could maintain the rolling speed of the 29er while still keeping the wheel rigidty that allows for full speed barreling through G-Outs that are only accompanied with the top of lung Screaming of "STRAAAVAAAAAA" at 35.6 mph.....if only, if only someday.

  19. #19
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    This one's in the running for thread of the month ! Good job.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggilings View Post
    Now you need to do 29er vs. 650b
    I rode a 650 11 miles on a varied single track this weekend... Hated it. I would rather have the full advantage if the 29 or the agility of the 26. The 27.5 was an improvised compromise.

  21. #21
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    Butt seriously I am thinking if they could make a 27.5 tire that actually measures 28.25" at the centertread, then we could maintain the rolling speed of the 29er while still keeping the wheel rigidty that allows for full speed barreling through G-Outs that are only accompanied with the top of lung Screaming of "STRAAAVAAAAAA" at 35.6 mph.....if only, if only someday.
    Hans Dampf Super Gravity? It's coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I rode a 650 11 miles on a varied single track this weekend... Hated it. I would rather have the full advantage if the 29 or the agility of the 26. The 27.5 was an improvised compromise.
    Sounds like a reasonable conclusion. There's no doubt that the three wheel sizes do make different compromises. I'm curious about what you rode and where you rode it. Care to elaborate? Exactly what sort of trails, what sort of rider are you (background, preferences), what bike, tires, wheelset, etc.

    I myself just finished my 650b Mojo HD build, and personally I found the differences to be pretty subtle. With Neo-Motos and a 1760g wheelset, for the most part it felt like a fun, playful 26" Mojo, except it just didn't fall into wheel traps as easily.

  22. #22
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    Carbine 275 bike through southern CA mountains. Everything from loose techy climbs to bombing semi berm trail. I would have enjoyed it much more on my Tallboy LTc or Spider 26".

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I rode a 650 11 miles on a varied single track this weekend... Hated it. I would rather have the full advantage if the 29 or the agility of the 26. The 27.5 was an improvised compromise.
    It was in this past May when I was totally hating my 650b wheels. I could not get any traction, front wheel was out of control, I could not get a single thing right. My old 26" bike used to be heaps better. This agony lasted for about 50 miles.

    The reason for my frustration was, I switched to RaRas after having done hundreds of miles on grippy heavier tires and my ride suffered badly as a result. Everything turn back to peachy when I sold the RaRas and got back my old Neo Motos. God I am surprised Schwalbe has not run out of business yet with my experience being that bad!

  24. #24
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    Science, subjective, or some of both - works and is fun - the 27.5 is out of the box and should stick around. Now where are the xc's?

  25. #25
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I rode a 650 11 miles on a varied single track this weekend... Hated it. I would rather have the full advantage if the 29 or the agility of the 26. The 27.5 was an improvised compromise.
    If I read your report correctly, you were on single track gnarly enough that 29" hoops would be the most comfy and tight enough that 29" hoops not agile enough.

    Hmmm, I know, why not try a wheel half -way in between 29" and 26"?

    No? You might have an insurmountable problem.

    It's your money and your personal preference that is the bottom line for any bike.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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