• 12-11-2012
    LB412
    I am going to take my Tallboy LTc out there in a week or two for comparison... I'll update everyone when the results are in.
  • 12-11-2012
    problematiks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    ...ROLL is alot better, to the tune of 3-5 seconds faster on a 3 minute Enduro style DH trail (Strava verified ;-))....My carbine with 650b, 10 miles X 3 of ups and downs like this:

    Carbine 650b Enve AM Nevegal Front / Neo Moto Rear 10 miles
    Carbine 26" Easton Haven Carbon Nobby Nics front rear 10 miles
    ...

    Is a 3-5 second difference on a 3 minute course even worth mentioning for an average Joe Biker?I mean, seriously?Not hating on 650b, but objectivelly speaking to me this reads more like "was (re)introducing 650b worth it" than "650b is the best of both worlds".

    Not to mention there can be more difference just by changing tires on a same size wheel.

    Good try though.Now go and do the same thing with same model/width/compound tires, as somebody else already suggested ;)

    Marko
  • 12-11-2012
    LB412
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by problematiks View Post
    Is a 3-5 second difference on a 3 minute course even worth mentioning for an average Joe Biker?I mean, seriously?Not hating on 650b, but objectivelly speaking to me this reads more like "was (re)introducing 650b worth it" than "650b is the best of both worlds".

    Not to mention there can be more difference just by changing tires on a same size wheel.

    Good try though.Now go and do the same thing with same model/width/compound tires, as somebody else already suggested ;)

    Marko

    And add a good 29 to the mix.
  • 12-12-2012
    morkys
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by problematiks View Post
    Is a 3-5 second difference on a 3 minute course even worth mentioning for an average Joe Biker?I mean, seriously?Not hating on 650b, but objectivelly speaking to me this reads more like "was (re)introducing 650b worth it" than "650b is the best of both worlds".

    Not to mention there can be more difference just by changing tires on a same size wheel.

    Good try though.Now go and do the same thing with same model/width/compound tires, as somebody else already suggested ;)

    Marko

    If you were in a one and a half hour race you'd finish up to a minute and a half faster just going by the minimum 3 second improvement. Sounds significant to me.
  • 12-12-2012
    problematiks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by morkys View Post
    If you were in a one and a half hour race you'd finish up to a minute and a half faster just going by the minimum 3 second improvement. Sounds significant to me.

    Yes, if you were in a race.My point in the text you quoted being that average Joe Biker(i.e. most people) just rides for fun and doesn't race.

    @LB412: Yeah, including a 29er would be great, but the problem is you can get the Carbine in 26" or 650b guise only.But I guess a SC Tallboy LTc could be somewhat representative, since it at least uses very similar (same system, different company) suspension.

    Marko
  • 12-12-2012
    JoePAz
    So when tested the 27.5 vs 26, the larger wheel was faster on the downhill parts.

    How about the climbs?

    I am tossing around the idea of 650b wheels for my hardtail. I want a bike good for climbs/descents, is reasonably fast for the occasional race, is maneuverable in rough terrain and climb rocks etc. And most importantly provide a fun ride.

    I like my 26" wheels and think that the 650b might give me a little better larger rock clearance mostly. However I don't want to give up the nimble handling of my XC geometry bike either.

    I know I could test them by getting a set, but since I run V-brakes that means also changing to discs.
  • 12-12-2012
    OneEyedHito
    I will look back at the strava's but I don't climb with ANY type of pace, I usually conserve as much as I can for the descents, as an example on my climbs around here my HR stays in the 150's and on the descents it is in the 180's!!!!
  • 12-12-2012
    OneEyedHito
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by problematiks View Post
    Is a 3-5 second difference on a 3 minute course even worth mentioning for an average Joe Biker?I mean, seriously?Not hating on 650b, but objectivelly speaking to me this reads more like "was (re)introducing 650b worth it" than "650b is the best of both worlds".

    Not to mention there can be more difference just by changing tires on a same size wheel.

    Good try though.Now go and do the same thing with same model/width/compound tires, as somebody else already suggested ;)

    Marko

    Point is understood and taken Marko, but for this Joe I have run the exact same strava time on my local trails 4 or 5 times each..........so a track that takes me 2:51 seconds to get down and I run that same time on the same bike on several different days (the trail conditions are not exactly the same on any given day either, we haven't even approached that subject {since this is scientific I mean} so what gives), it would figure that 3-5 seconds makes a huge difference.......btw on a legit downhill race 3-5 seconds is first through 5th or more placings.........so again while your tire comparison is noted the fact is that in a race setting 3-5 seconds is worth it just like to some XC guys $1000 per pound of weight saved it worth it......subjectivity at its finest! Thanks for the kudo's on the try, you approval is appreciated.
  • 12-12-2012
    OneEyedHito
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    So when tested the 27.5 vs 26, the larger wheel was faster on the downhill parts.

    How about the climbs?

    I am tossing around the idea of 650b wheels for my hardtail. I want a bike good for climbs/descents, is reasonably fast for the occasional race, is maneuverable in rough terrain and climb rocks etc. And most importantly provide a fun ride.

    I like my 26" wheels and think that the 650b might give me a little better larger rock clearance mostly. However I don't want to give up the nimble handling of my XC geometry bike either.

    I know I could test them by getting a set, but since I run V-brakes that means also changing to discs.

    How tall are you if you don't mind me asking? I am 5'9" on a good day.
  • 12-12-2012
    JoePAz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    How tall are you if you don't mind me asking? I am 5'9" on a good day.

    5'7" and 155lbs. I have friend who is 6'5" and loves his 29inch wheels. Then again he always had trouble finding bike that fit him in the first place. As for his riding.... I can't say it has changed it any. He he was always good technically, but I was a far better climber. Last ride with him on 29er and me on 26er (both hardtails) proved nothing other than what we knew about our riding skills. BTW.. No point in my trying his 29er due our size difference.
  • 12-12-2012
    OneEyedHito
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    5'7" and 155lbs. I have friend who is 6'5" and loves his 29inch wheels. Then again he always had trouble finding bike that fit him in the first place. As for his riding.... I can't say it has changed it any. He he was always good technically, but I was a far better climber. Last ride with him on 29er and me on 26er (both hardtails) proved nothing other than what we knew about our riding skills. BTW.. No point in my trying his 29er due our size difference.

    So my conclusion with a top o' the line 29er in my quiver (a TB LTc) and my experience on HT and another FS 29er at 5'9", yes the 29er while fast and fun does offer too many compromises for me over the 26 or 27.5 option. A big one for me is that I go @ 190# or so and the wheel/frame flex becomes more of an issue at 29........as for the climb-ability of the 27.5 it 'seems' to climb better, meaning to me it appears to be less stressful.....

    Here is what I will do......I have my '13 Remedy 9.9 built up with Enve 275 AM's now and have clearance issue fixed with a 2.25" Nobby Nic in rear, and I have a set of Enve 26 AM's enroute, I will run the same tires front and rear on both sets and as soon as we get some drier days I will re-run the above tracks swapping out wheels...I will try to keep the same climb pace on both wheels and I will track my HR to see where my body is taxed more......should be a better comparison than how I feel on the climbs since I don't push the up pace.

    Hito
  • 12-12-2012
    JMac47
    Time comparisons aside.....
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OneEyedHito View Post
    So my conclusion with a top o' the line 29er in my quiver (a TB LTc) and my experience on HT and another FS 29er at 5'9", yes the 29er while fast and fun does offer too many compromises for me over the 26 or 27.5 option. A big one for me is that I go @ 190# or so and the wheel/frame flex becomes more of an issue at 29........as for the climb-ability of the 27.5 it 'seems' to climb better, meaning to me it appears to be less stressful.....

    Here is what I will do......I have my '13 Remedy 9.9 built up with Enve 275 AM's now and have clearance issue fixed with a 2.25" Nobby Nic in rear, and I have a set of Enve 26 AM's enroute, I will run the same tires front and rear on both sets and as soon as we get some drier days I will re-run the above tracks swapping out wheels...I will try to keep the same climb pace on both wheels and I will track my HR to see where my body is taxed more......should be a better comparison than how I feel on the climbs since I don't push the up pace.

    Hito

    I wanna know where you get all the dough for all the bikes & bling to do these test runs! Just say'n....:thumbsup:
  • 12-12-2012
    OneEyedHito
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    I wanna know where you get all the dough for all the bikes & bling! Just say'n....:thumbsup:

    a late bloomer (meaning late at getting my act together) with no kids..........go figure!
  • 12-12-2012
    bolandjd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I know I could test them by getting a set, but since I run V-brakes that means also changing to discs.

    Not necessarily. Your v-brakes may have enough vertical adjustibility to set up for 650b. Have you measured it?
  • 12-12-2012
    CrozCountry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Morpheous View Post
    Hito is also getting faster. (on any wheelsize) :thumbsup:

    Aha! Now switch back to the 26 and lets see faster Hito again.
  • 12-13-2012
    JoePAz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bolandjd View Post
    Not necessarily. Your v-brakes may have enough vertical adjustibility to set up for 650b. Have you measured it?

    No I have not. Also I have not looked hard for rim brake 650b wheels either.
  • 12-13-2012
    DeeEight
    3 seconds faster over 3 minutes to joe biker means after 30 minutes, you get to stop and wait for 30 seconds for your buddies to catch up on the group ride....to most riders, that alone is significant enough to be worthwhile.
  • 12-13-2012
    morkys
    The 3 second improvement over a 3 minute ride means there is an improvement in rollover and/or traction. My statement using a "race" as an example was rather limited. I am sure the average rider would enjoy the same benefits of 650B that make a rider go faster. Rollover and traction in this test are most likely responsible for the improvement.
  • 12-13-2012
    problematiks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
    3 seconds faster over 3 minutes to joe biker means after 30 minutes, you get to stop and wait for 30 seconds for your buddies to catch up on the group ride....to most riders, that alone is significant enough to be worthwhile.

    The problem is, that 2% improvement that's apparently so significant won't make you a better rider.If you were last in the group, you're still going to be last.

    And as I mentioned before, changing tires alone can result in a bigger difference.

    Anyway, to each their own.

    Marko
  • 12-13-2012
    socalscott
    The Nevigal factor. So why did you penalize the 650b?
    Do the right thing, re-test with Nev's on the others and all Neo on the b.

    LOL, love the irony of being a late bloomer when the economy takes a dive. Decades of prepin' for hard times and...D'oh!
    Look on the bright side. Loads of empathy on tap.
  • 12-15-2012
    OneEyedHito
    Neve's aren't my tire of choice period.......They grip well in the corners but are slow rolling and heavy for what they are on these bikes, on a dry course DH bike they would rip I am sure......but for that the Schwalbe Wicked Will is the best tire for my moolah. I have my remedy built up with a 2.35 HD Trailstar Compound upfront and a 2.25 NN Pacestar in the back....I am going to just ride this rig for now, I will play around with the 26 Enve's when they show but for now I just want the fn trails to dry out enough to ride them.........midwest weather just blows period.
  • 12-15-2012
    doghead
    Both my brother in law & myself have 26er's & 29er's, both never get ridden since we switched over to 650B over a year ago.
    We both went on & won our NorCal XC championships classes this season on 650b's.
    I had to add in 650's to my 2010 26 Spark, this turned it into a XC monster!
    It's much faster then the new 26 or 29er Sparks (ridden both).
    So Please save the BS about how great your wheel size is compared to the 27.5's,
    Scott won both the World XC championships & World Cup XC on 650b's, a "Size They Did NOT Even Sell!!" Because it Tested better then both 26 or 29 (Sizes they Sold), when run side by side with exactly the same setup!
  • 12-16-2012
    LB412
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by doghead View Post
    Both my brother in law & myself have 26er's & 29er's, both never get ridden since we switched over to 650B over a year ago.
    We both went on & won our NorCal XC championships classes this season on 650b's.
    I had to add in 650's to my 2010 26 Spark, this turned it into a XC monster!
    It's much faster then the new 26 or 29er Sparks (ridden both).
    So Please save the BS about how great your wheel size is compared to the 27.5's,
    Scott won both the World XC championships & World Cup XC on 650b's, a "Size They Did NOT Even Sell!!" Because it Tested better then both 26 or 29 (Sizes they Sold), when run side by side with exactly the same setup!

    I am an average rider. Rode 650s and hated it.. Depending on the trail I am much faster on a 26 or 29.
  • 12-16-2012
    LB412
    Oh, and Scott makes a great bike.
  • 12-16-2012
    socalscott
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    I am an average rider. Rode 650s and hated it.. Depending on the trail I am much faster on a 26 or 29.

    Well then, on average, I find the avg. size wheel averages out best for me on avg. trails. lol
    BTW, on avg, I ride avg. trails.
    I'm still trying to get my head around acceptance of all the shortcomings of the huge 29, whilst a modest increase in size over a kids tire draws mucho resistance?