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  1. #1
    TNC
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    Peeled my Neo off my ZTR355

    Funny that another poster mentioned blowing his Neo off a ZTR while inflating it...and causing the rim to go out of true. Saturday on a long ride on my Nomad with Neo/ZTR in front, I was cornering into a bermed corner at a pretty good speed. The bike started trying to turn into the inside of the berm, so I pushed it back out a bit. This trail is on a dirt motor ranch with some outstanding bermed corners. At some point in the corner the bead of the tire let go, and down it went. This was all dirt, and I was wearing body armor, so not even a scratch. I was surprised to find my ZTR had a slight wobble...nothing a fairly easy truing won't address, but wobbly nonetheless.

    I use an Olympic rim strip with my Neo and had plenty of Stan's in the tire. I've used this combo for several months with no issues. I am not Steve Peat, but I tend to ride my bike a little more dirt motor style because that's what I'm used to. I've been leary of this completely built Stan's wheel from the start, because I really feel it's more of an XC setup. I was really happy with the Blunt I started out with on the front of the Nomad a year ago, but the undersized rim resulted in a couple of failures...again...thank goodness for body armor. I'm not freeriding my Nomad...just aggressive trail. I ran that Blunt setup on my Nomad at Moab for a couple of weeks with a tube installed with no problems, but I refuse to go back to tubes. I'll go back to straight 26'er stuff before I have to run tubes again. I'm thinking of trying a ghetto setup on my Blunt wheel like Rainman has had success with. I'm thinking it may make a better bead/rim interface with the way the split tube fits the rim and tire.

    I'm also still waiting on the Kenda Nevegal to see if there is an improved fitment at the bead. The Neo is an absolutely awesome tire, but one of these days I'm gonna have a blowoff resulting in a worse crash than I've had so far. I can honestly say that I haven't had a blowoff with any of my rim stripped 26'ers, so I'd like to experiment with another tire or two to see how things go. It seems I have fairly lengthy periods of reliability with the two Neo tubeless setups I've used, but I have zero blowoffs with 26'ers...most of them non-UST like the Neo. It's a bit disconcerting. I'm still not totally impressed with the fit of the Neo to either the ZTR or new Blunt. I'm also thinking about using a 650B CR18 rim I have to build a wheel. The fit on this rim and the Neo seems much more appropriate to me.
    Last edited by TNC; 02-01-2009 at 09:16 PM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
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    That is disturbing. One time a bead blow-off happened to me mid-ride with a tubeless converted 26 inch Panaracer Rampage tire on a DT Swiss TR rim. So I don't believe that switching to 26 wheel would be any safer for harder riding stresses, unless using a TR designed tire and rim.

    Any tire bead in use stretches looser over time more or less. Compared to Stan's rimstrips, it makes good sense that a ghetto strip should maintain a more consistent rubber to rubber sealed contact interface as the bead stretches.

    Hopefully soon there will be safer TR type 650b tires, with more Kevlar in the beads to prevent stretching so much, and that are close otherwise to the Neo-moto.

  3. #3
    TNC
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    I don't know, derby. When Stan's rim strip system came out years ago, I haven't burped or blew off a tire since. And even in the dark old days of the roll-yer-own packing tape and latex mold builder with non-UST tires and non-UST rims, I only blew one off in a g-out situation.

    In recent years the only tubeless issue I've had is occasionally finding the right non-UST tire to run tubeless that still provides puncture durability. In our rocky terrain, I even have to be a bit careful of the UST tires I run...especially on the rear. The selection of good UST tires that are durable and don't weigh a ton are becoming more numerous, so this has been good. But none of this has anything to do with the sudden bead separation blowoff I'm talking about here. At least when I have punctured a tubeless tire with a sharp rock or such, it goes down slow and gives you a loud hissing warning. I've never crashed with one of my tires getting a fatal puncture over the years...even on a fast, nasty downhill. A rapid bead separation blowoff for me has always resulted in a crash, as I'm usually in an aggressive situation that brought on the blowoff.

    The fit of the Neo and ZTR355 is way better than the Blunt, but apparently still not good enough. I'm going to try a Nevegal post-haste when they come out to see if there's improvement...and I'll probably try the ghetto deal. But frankly, I'm getting gunshy of the Neo. This tire is a downright winner in terms of traction and wear performance, but if it won't hold up in tubeless mode, it's outa here. Body armor and luck have been on my side in two good crashes, but I don't even buy lottery tickets...LOL! I don't think XC folks are going to have this issue for the most part, or those running tubes.

    And this isn't a hate rant or anything close as far as the Neo and 650B are concerned. The Neo was never touted as a tubeless tire, so it is what it is. I love the wheel/tire size, and I still standy by the performance and handling improvement it brings to MTB'ing. Some of us just apparently need a wider selection/availability of wheels and tires for certain types of riding...at least if we want to run reliable tubeless setups.

  4. #4
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    Too much...

    Too much front wheel bias is my guess. You know... full face helmet, 6 gallons of water, 16 power bars and a fig newton in the camelbak make that thing way front end heavy. Hell that would make anyone look for a way out.

    BTW, I blew the Quasi off the rim yesterday also.

  5. #5
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    Sounds like you just need a fresh tire. Beads can't stretch (aramid) but the casings do start to deform and break down after a while. It's not the tire or the rim per se, nor is it a combination of the two. It's mostly just wear and tear.

  6. #6
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    +1 to Mickey. From my understanding the Neo and Quasi a bit undersized, but with use the casing gets worn. I've noticed the casing wearing on my (first set) of Pacenti tires. I use them so they wear out...

  7. #7
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    Can the rim design be the cause of the problem? You are not the first who experienced blow-off with stan's rims.

    from their site:

    Rim Features:

    * This new rim design eliminates the traditional bead hook and uses our new bead socket technology™. It moves the sidewall of the rim down by 2-3mm.
    * By eliminating the bead hook and lowering the sidewall by 2-3mm we reduce the weight of the rim. Some of this material can be used in the center part of the rim making it stronger and stiffer.
    ...


    I think it is fine for the most tires but some might have too weak sidewalls for those rims

  8. #8
    TNC
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    Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice
    Sounds like you just need a fresh tire. Beads can't stretch (aramid) but the casings do start to deform and break down after a while. It's not the tire or the rim per se, nor is it a combination of the two. It's mostly just wear and tear.
    I've never had this experience with 26'er setups with Stan's rim strips. I've run tires down to the nub and didn't have them unseat at the bead under hard use...and many of them non-UST tires. The worst case scenario has been that when the knobs start wearing down a great deal, they seem more prone to a rock poke that the Stan's won't seal up. I have always felt that the Neo and rim fit situation has been a little loose.

    Texheckler and I work at the same shop, and now he just reported a blowoff on a new Quasi. He's using a pair of Stan's ZTR355's on a Stumpjumper FSR. He's never had a blowoff with Neo's, but he's always been able to run lighter tires and wheels than me with no problems. We've been working with homemade and factory tubeless setups at our shop since they first came on the scene. We know how to set up tubeless tires in just about any configuration. I disagree with your statement about it not being the tire or the rim. It's one of them. I still don't like the way the Neo fits the two...three if you consider the two alleged sized Blunts...rims I've tried. I still contend a tighter fit would solve all this. The Neo's carcass is obviously tough enough. I've not had a serious hole poked in any of the ones I've used yet. If I had blown off a few 26'er tires over the years, I might give credence to your assessment.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice
    ...Beads can't stretch (aramid) . ....
    Forgive me for not understanding this, but why else is it always much easier to remount used tires?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Forgive me for not understanding this, but why else is it always much easier to remount used tires?
    The stretching and deformation in the casings. Steel and kevlar beads don't stretch. Etro specifications pretty much demand that. Cotton or synthetic weaves and rubber have far, far more give in them than the two highest tensile material used in industry.

    A tire "stretching out" is pretty complicated, but blaming it on either the rim or tire manufacturer is a little more complicated.

    Just trying to defuse some of what seems like anger bubbling below the surface here...

  11. #11
    TNC
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    Bubbling anger?...LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice
    The stretching and deformation in the casings. Steel and kevlar beads don't stretch. Etro specifications pretty much demand that. Cotton or synthetic weaves and rubber have far, far more give in them than the two highest tensile material used in industry.

    A tire "stretching out" is pretty complicated, but blaming it on either the rim or tire manufacturer is a little more complicated.

    Just trying to defuse some of what seems like anger bubbling below the surface here...
    SD, if that was referring to my comments, then you really don't know me. I may be frank and try to say it like I see it...and actually experience it...but real anger over stuff like this is wasted. Now...if I was in a body cast over this crash, I might be a little peeved.

    I love 650B. I think it's a real deal. The relative newness of this tire/wheel format deserves great praise when it works and frank discussion when a possible problem surfaces. You think I'm complaining?...just ask krolik.

  12. #12
    Harshing my mellow, man..
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    Whoa there, buddy...

    TNC, you need to just calm down and go to bed. You alway HAVE had a temper...at your age, this can't be good for your heart. Just put down the tequila and go to sleep.
    Last edited by locobaylor; 02-03-2009 at 12:25 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by locobaylor
    TNC, you need to just calm down and go to bed. You alway [U]have[U] had a temper...at your age, this can't be good for your heart. Just put down the tequila and go to sleep.

  14. #14
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    Glad you were not hurt. Body armour a good thing for that application..... ztr's ?
    I think maybe ghetto is a tighter fit as Derby says. The inner tube over the rim bead makes it tighter i beleive and a little more tolerant as well as grippier. (word?)
    When building up my neo/ztrs i just did not see how the lil yellow tape was going to get the job done (observations during inflation vs ghetto + c-clamp testing.)
    I've worn my ztr based neos down to semi-slicks with no issues + I ride the h*&ll out of them aggressively downhill and weigh 160-170.
    But geez guys, with the different class of aggressiveness in downhill applications you guys do, I'm not sure I wouldn't run thick a*&s tubes
    Why not do some of the C-clamp testing Stan does on his site, with various tires and setups (yellow rim strip, rubber rim strip, ghetto) ? Try and get an idea if any rim bead/non-tubeless run not-non-tubeless tire would suite your needs for the aggressive stuff you do ?
    (Btw, Not sure I would be running ztr's if application was aggressive enough for body armour, but glad you were.)
    Last edited by ghawk; 02-03-2009 at 06:21 AM.

  15. #15
    TNC
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    LOL!...locobaylor

    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked Headtube
    Don't worry, CH. When I get back to the shop, locobaylor will be the recipient of some of my "bubbling anger". I tell ya...these youngsters today have no respect for their elders. But when you see this pic of Baylor out at our ride last week, it becomes clear why that is. Hey...he's actually not a bad kid. We needed someone to sweep the floor at the shop. We always try to help the "challenged" folk in our community. In this pic I think Baylor was still in makeup from his stint as an extra in the remake of the movie, "Planet of the Apes".
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    Last edited by TNC; 02-03-2009 at 07:36 AM. Reason: add pic

  16. #16
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    Interesting observations, TNC.

    I have had no burps, no blow-offs or roll-offs so far with the Blunt set up as ghetto tubeless on the front with the Neo Moto...and i've tried to make that happen.
    It seems that the ghetto tubeless holds onto the tire and rim better than the Stans rim strip does.
    However, folding bead tires do stretch, as has been said, and there is always the chance that one will stretch just enough to give way under cornering or landing slightly sideways stresses...although as I said, i've really tried to get mine to let go, and [touch wood] they haven't yet.
    Having said this, mine will probably blow off on the next ride....
    R.
    It is inevitable ...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman
    ....
    Having said this, mine will probably blow off on the next ride....
    R.
    R, you have seriously jinxed yourself

    Since I have no experience with ghetto tubeless, my humble theory is that the drying sealant glues better to the more porous rubber to rubber interface. Any reliance on rubber to metal or rubber to plastic tape has reduced bonding effect which allow for the dry seal to peal away, burp, get wet then possibly suddenly bead stretch more and blow off easier.

    With well settled sealed ghetto technique, any side load that would pull the bead away from the rim would also pull the ghetto rim-strip away from the rim with the bead because of the superior glue like bond. Stan's rim strips are too stiff to move or stretch with the bead.

    Just my theory. And I plan to test the theory soon with my next set of new Pacenti tires.

  18. #18
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    Yes derby, I tend to agree with you on those observations.....especially the first one... [*oops!* I had better wear my armour next ride... ]


    R.


    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    R, you have seriously jinxed yourself

    Since I have no experience with ghetto tubeless, my humble theory is that the drying sealant glues better to the more porous rubber to rubber interface. Any reliance on rubber to metal or rubber to plastic tape has reduced bonding effect which allow for the dry seal to peal away, burp, get wet then possibly suddenly bead stretch more and blow off easier.

    With well settled sealed ghetto technique, any side load that would pull the bead away from the rim would also pull the ghetto rim-strip away from the rim with the bead because of the superior glue like bond. Stan's rim strips are too stiff to move or stretch with the bead.

    Just my theory. And I plan to test the theory soon with my next set of new Pacenti tires.
    It is inevitable ...

  19. #19
    TNC
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    R, you have seriously jinxed yourself

    Since I have no experience with ghetto tubeless, my humble theory is that the drying sealant glues better to the more porous rubber to rubber interface. Any reliance on rubber to metal or rubber to plastic tape has reduced bonding effect which allow for the dry seal to peal away, burp, get wet then possibly suddenly bead stretch more and blow off easier.

    With well settled sealed ghetto technique, any side load that would pull the bead away from the rim would also pull the ghetto rim-strip away from the rim with the bead because of the superior glue like bond. Stan's rim strips are too stiff to move or stretch with the bead.

    Just my theory. And I plan to test the theory soon with my next set of new Pacenti tires.
    Hey derby...on the bond between the tire bead and Stan's strip, they actually do adhere to each other when everything is done right. Sometimes I have to use a semi-sharp plastic tire tool to separate the bead from the strip during tire removal or to add sealant. When everything works properly, they stick together quite well. The strip lifts with the tire bead when doing this. When I pulled everything apart on my ZTR/Neo setup, the tire bead and Olympic strip were well sealed except one place where they separated. This was the spot where some dirt and such was present. I'm still a little suspicious about the ease with which a Neo and strip can detach from each other when compared to the many 26'ers I've tried. Most 26'ers fit quite tightly to their rim, so the resulting amount of movement is less and perhaps results in the bond between bead and strip staying put. On the other hand, you mention stiffness in the strip. This got me to thinking about the fact that we're using a 26" strip as recommended by Stan...Olympic model. This obviously stretches the strip more than normal on a 650B rim and probably removes some of the strip's compliance. You've heard me say this before. I still contend a tighter fit at the bead would probably alleviate this. It's not a blame statement, just an observation. Is it a rim thing?...a tire thing?...a "both" thing? Hell, I don't know. I'm just a guy trying to run non-UST tires in tubeless mode with a death wish.

  20. #20
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    I'm still riding Stan's ZTR with only yellow tape and a Neo. No burps, roll-offs, or major leaks. Then again, I ride SMOOOOVE.


    I second SD. TNC, you do ride a lot from your posts. How old is the tire and how many times have you mounted and re-mounted it?

  21. #21
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    TNC, yes, for sure I've also seen the Stan's rim strips and sealant glue fairly well with the tire bead and lift the strip before peeling apart while removing the tire. Maybe a ghetto inner tube would flex with the bead under side loads and remain bonded even better. The ghetto riders seem to all swear by that technique for best air retention.

    I also think you have very good points about the reduced flexibility of Stan's rim strips when a 26' wheel strip is stretched another 3 inches or so to fit 650b rims. And I have also always noticed every Panaracer tire I've used, Fire XC Pros, Rampage, and Pacenti's are easier to mount than most other's I've used. A tighter bead would go a long way to reduce bead squirm burping or over-stretch the rim diameter easier.

    Possibly another small factor of the issue of making a good bond is that I'm finding the Pacenti tires need at least 3 ounces to seal fairly well for multiple rides. That is much more sealant than three other 26" 2.3 size tires I've converted tubeless needing at most slightly more than 2 ounces to seal well when new. The Pacenti casings bleed very little. This may indicate the roughness of the bead interface with the rim's bead hook interface is another issue.

    I'm also worried about my safety converting any tire! I may try over 32 psi again when I try Neo-motos with ghetto rim-strips to test the limits. But 32, really 30 psi, is the max I'll use with Stan's rim strips for any size wheel.

    I wish TR was standard for all tires. Why not make tubes or tubeless optional? I guess it must be much more expensive to produce tires with TR beads.

  22. #22
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    Here is the original thread where we first beat the heck out of this topic.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=432509
    (incuding the non-metal rubber/rubber contact and tighter fit provided by ghetto....mind you this is still ghetto guess work.)
    Just remember guys this is all still done with a tire that is not supposed to be run tubeless. Ya don't see Kirk spending allot of time talking bout this.
    Oh yea, that reminds me I need to order some new Neos as these are worn out with 0 flats run ghetto in 6 months.

    PS, I hear bleeding is a real problem with some tires. (as said, not Neos) But I would think that would be a sure sign you should not be running those tubeless because the sidewall is questionable and needs the extra support of the tube.

  23. #23
    TNC
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    Not old...

    Quote Originally Posted by willie b
    I'm still riding Stan's ZTR with only yellow tape and a Neo. No burps, roll-offs, or major leaks. Then again, I ride SMOOOOVE.


    I second SD. TNC, you do ride a lot from your posts. How old is the tire and how many times have you mounted and re-mounted it?
    And never removed. This tire was brand new and has only been mounted once on the ZTR. I've pulled a several inch gap on one side open to add sealant just once. The bead and Olympic strip were nicely bonded. My strict routine is to add sealant at a spot directly across from the valve stem on the drive side. The spot that "derailed" during this episode was right at the valve, so nothing amiss at that spot. I pushed the bike for a bit with the tire flopping, and the bead and strip were still strongly bonded...except at that one point. I was impressed. I would normally install a tube and keep riding, but we were close to our vehicles.

    willie, as I mentioned elsewhere already, two of the guys at the shop are using ZTRs with Neos and have had no issues at all using only yellow tape front and rear. They have been riding Epics, and I ride a Nomad. I think just the nature of the Nomad, and how one rides a bike like this probably challenges the wheels and tires a bit more. I am definitely no Steve Peat and no freerider, but I ride my Nomad much like I ride my dirt motor. This is a bike with suspension, and I'm going to get my money's worth.

    I just want to repeat, however, that I've run all manner of non-tubeless 26" tires front and rear on my Nomad and other bikes with no blowoffs. Some of those tires were poor tubeless candidates and often had a rock cut that totally ruined the tire...but...they never blew off the rim. Good, bad, or otherwise, those 26'ers had a relatively tight fit to the rim. The Neo doesn't. The Neo/ZTR fit was the tightest I've seen so far but still somewhat loose compared to 26'ers I've used...except that 650B Sun CR18 which is alleged to be a different standard from the old days. I'd contend that if all 650B rims were the size of that CR18, blowoffs wouldn't occur.

    But, back to the original issue, one can't really carp too much since neither the Neo nor Quasi are claimed to be tubeless ready. It's too bad really, as the carcass and integrity of the Neo are otherwise stellar. Aside from bead tightness, any non-tubeless 26'er I've ever run in tubeless mode that had the carcass integrity of the Neo always made a great tubeless candidate.

  24. #24
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    Am I the only one who wishes that splitting a tube to create a 'tubeless' set-up was not referred to as 'ghetto tubeless'?
    Technically, it is not tubeless, since you are using a tube, right?

    Anyway - I am planning on converting my front - ghetto tubeless - and was planning on using a 24" tube. Is that what works best for 650b rims? (in this case, a Synergy OS)

  25. #25
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    Really, why are any of you surprised that running a tire not designed to be tubeless has had this result?

    I totally understand that Stan's may have worked for you in the past, but you have to understand that using products in ways they are not designed for always has potential consequences.

    Buck up, it didn't work this time, oh well.
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