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  1. #1
    dwt
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    Nino Schurter poster child for 650b?

    650B Palace: Nino is Becoming the Poster Child for 650b

    If not, at least an invaluable professional endorsement. And not paid to be.

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  2. #2
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    650B Palace: Nino is Becoming the Poster Child for 650b

    If not, at least an invaluable professional endorsement. And not paid to be.

    The Kirk Pacenti of pro mtb racers.
    I don't doubt that Nino likes his 650b, but claiming he is "not paid" to push the concept a bit seems like a stretch.

    You don't think there was a single conversation about promoting the concept that happened between Nino and the company called Scott that pays Nino?

    Perhaps you are correct and Nino is simply excited about it and wants everyone to be excited like he is excited. Exciting..

    Having said that, I do want Nino's bike...gimme gimme

  3. #3
    dwt
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    Nino is certainly paid by Scott Swisspower to race bikes

    According to the article, after 29" started winning races, Schurter tried them recognised their value but couldn't get a fit he liked. He then asked Scott to build him a 650b. Scott built prototypes for him and Florian Vogel. The rest is history.

    So sounds like it was his idea (along with Friishknecht and Florian) and not Scott's

    Meanwhile Scott has done very little to exploit Nino's success on this wheel and promote the bikes. You still AFAIK cant't get a Scale in the US, and Sparks and Genius' don't even exist. Which they totally should!


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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Nino is certainly paid by Scott Swisspoewerb to race bikes

    According to the article, after 29" started winning races, Schurter tried them recognised their value but couldn't get a fit he liked. He then asked Scott to build him a 650b. Scott built prototypes for him and Florian. The rest is history.

    So sounds like it was his idea (along with Friishknecht and Florian) and not Scott's

    Meanwhile Scott has done very little to exploit Nino's success on this wheel and promote the bikes. You still AFAIK cant't get a Scale in the US, and Sparks and Genius' don't even exist. Which they totally should!
    This is exactly correct. AKAIK there will be no Scale 650b product in the near term to cash in on his success with the format - which is what you would naturally expect to see if Scott was driving the program.

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    dwt
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    Friishknecht is quoted in the article on the 27.5 Scale:
    " It is a complete new model- not a copy of the 26 Scale - that was made completely on request of our pro riders. Whether or not it is something that Scott wants to bring to the market - and if so, when? - is not clear at the moment."

    I am no bicycle industry insider, but my layman's gut tells me that Scott is nuts not to strike while the iron is hot and milk Nino's success as far as possible in 2012 marketing an entire line of 650b from HT Scales, to 4" Sparks to longer travel Genius'. Ride the wave 2012, do not wait till 2013.

    It's probably already too late. Huge missed opportunity AFAIC. But as just another blowhard who posts opinions on the interwebz, what do l know?




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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I am no bicycle industry insider, but my layman's gut tells me that Scott is nuts not to strike while the iron is hot and milk Nino's success as far as possible in 2012 ... Huge missed opportunity...
    Yeah really, a race-winning bike on the front cover of the latest MBA that cannot be purchased...ouch.

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    With every article about 650b on the internet and magazines telling everyone that 29ers dominate XC and 650b is only good for long travel bikes, Scott probably is unsure if there is a market for a 650b XC bike beyond pro race teams. Based on comments around here, most people on mtbr think the same thing. So I fear the 650b XC bike may be a dead concept. It may all hinge on how well those KHS bikes sell.
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  8. #8
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith View Post
    With every article about 650b on the internet and magazines telling everyone that 29ers dominate XC and 650b is only good for long travel bikes, Scott probably is unsure if there is a market for a 650b XC bike beyond pro race teams. Based on comments around here, most people on mtbr think the same thing. So I fear the 650b XC bike may be a dead concept. It may all hinge on how well those KHS bikes sell.
    Good point. But Nino is beating 29'ers on 27.5". We know that it is the rider and not the wheel. But marketing is a whole other thing.

    I see a missed opportunity not just for Scales, especially in Europe. Feedback on MTBR indicates that 27.5" Sparks would fill in a hole on available bikes in 2013, as there are few if any 4" race dualies on the horizon. Also lightweight Genius' would get a ton of attention.

    We'll see.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith View Post
    With every article about 650b on the internet and magazines telling everyone that 29ers dominate XC and 650b is only good for long travel bikes, Scott probably is unsure if there is a market for a 650b XC bike beyond pro race teams. Based on comments around here, most people on mtbr think the same thing. So I fear the 650b XC bike may be a dead concept. It may all hinge on how well those KHS bikes sell.
    650b XC race bike - if you are talking about a hardtail - I'm sure Mickey at Spooky will whip one up for you that will be light, fast and US Made!

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    Lead times = too long

    Like many bike companies, Scott has other companies (in Asia) make all their stuff. The lead times to get a new product like a 650b Scale/Spark/etc to market are longer than you think. I bet we'll see the bikes you want, but we won't see them this year - Nino has only been riding 650b for less than a year, right?

    As an aside, I still think it's asinine that recreational riders, even competitive ones, pay any attention to what people like Kulhavy or Schurter are riding. What they are doing is NOTHING like what most people consider a fun day on a bike, even those of us who consider ourselves racers. That said, if Nino can bring some attention and interest to 650b, especially amongst the foot-dragging weightweenies who live in Europe, awesome.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Good point. But Nino is beating 29'ers on 27.5". We know that it is the rider and not the wheel. But marketing is a whole other thing.

    I see a missed opportunity not just for Scales, especially in Europe. Feedback on MTBR indicates that 27.5" Sparks would fill in a hole on available bikes in 2013, as there are few if any 4" race dualies on the horizon. Also lightweight Genius' would get a ton of attention.

    We'll see.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith View Post
    With every article about 650b on the internet and magazines telling everyone that 29ers dominate XC and 650b is only good for long travel bikes, Scott probably is unsure if there is a market for a 650b XC bike beyond pro race teams. Based on comments around here, most people on mtbr think the same thing. So I fear the 650b XC bike may be a dead concept. It may all hinge on how well those KHS bikes sell.
    Not at all. It's just a matter of market penetration. 2014 will be the first year that you will really begin to see a response to 650b from larger companies - they just don't respond that quickly due to longer development cycles. The most conservative approach to the format will be, as we are already seeing, to invest initially only where this format is clearly superior to the others and will not conflict with their prior investment and marketing (ie, for 29ers etc). If 650b has success in that application, it will grow outwards from there into XC and downhill arenas. These companies are logically following the most probable source of profits and don't want to cannibalize sales from existing product. You just have to think like a suit to understand it.

    At the same time, nature abhors a vacuum and faster/smaller companies sensing sales opportunities will increasingly choose to do the modest development needed to tweak a 26 race hardtail or XC full suspension design to a successful 27.5 format. I would guess we will see Magura and White Bros forks on these bikes.

    Anyway, that's what I think; just another opinion on the internet!

  12. #12
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    Ever seen emily batty's trek superfly ? She is 5'2 and is riding the smallest size 29er frame trek makes and has to run an offset post in reverse (to move her saddle further forward) as well as a negative 25degree stem with flat bar to keep her fromt low enough that she can attack on climbs like she does. That is a lot of compromises in bike fit which she would not need to do if trek were to build her a 650b in time for the olympics for example. They could certainly do a limited number of alloy frames in house for the team if they wanted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
    Ever seen emily batty's trek superfly ? She is 5'2 and is riding the smallest size 29er frame trek makes and has to run an offset post in reverse (to move her saddle further forward) as well as a negative 25degree stem with flat bar to keep her fromt low enough that she can attack on climbs like she does. That is a lot of compromises in bike fit which she would not need to do if trek were to build her a 650b in time for the olympics for example. They could certainly do a limited number of alloy frames in house for the team if they wanted.
    They could certainly do that, but that wouldn't help them sell their existing 29er hardtails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
    Ever seen emily batty's trek superfly ? She is 5'2 and is riding the smallest size 29er frame trek makes and has to run an offset post in reverse (to move her saddle further forward) as well as a negative 25degree stem with flat bar to keep her fromt low enough that she can attack on climbs like she does.
    How would this change on a 650b bike? I think instead of -25 she'd be on a -17 stem looking at most women at her level (and at 5'2") even riding a 26" bike. Trek could cut an XS size mold if they wanted to, but choose not to for some reason.

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    One might wonder why Orbea doesn't use Julian Absalon's success to sell 26'ers.

  16. #16
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Like many bike companies, Scott has other companies (in Asia) make all their stuff. The lead times to get a new product like a 650b Scale/Spark/etc to market are longer than you think. I bet we'll see the bikes you want, but we won't see them this year - Nino has only been riding 650b for less than a year, right?

    As an aside, I still think it's asinine that recreational riders, even competitive ones, pay any attention to what people like Kulhavy or Schurter are riding. What they are doing is NOTHING like what most people consider a fun day on a bike, even those of us who consider ourselves racers. That said, if Nino can bring some attention and interest to 650b, especially amongst the foot-dragging weightweenies who live in Europe, awesome

    -Walt
    my point was that in marketing the product Scott would be nuts not to emphasize that the current WC XC leader rides the 27.5" wheel. Again that's all about sales and not reality. Schurter would be competitive on any wheel size, perfect fit or not. And marketing and advertising based on what professionals use is done in all sports, and no matter what, and the same gap exists between pro and amateur, whether bikes, ski equipment , golf clubs, or whatever.

    As far as the 27.5" Scale, Schurter's success at least legitimizes the wheel size. Even if he doesn't win races because of it, he is not handicapped by it either.

    It's a shame Scott could not have looked into the future as to Schurter's success, and ordered a run of retail Scales for sale in 2013. They would have had to ration them.


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  17. #17
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Like many bike companies, Scott has other companies (in Asia) make all their stuff. The lead times to get a new product like a 650b Scale/Spark/etc to market are longer than you think. I bet we'll see the bikes you want, but we won't see them this year - Nino has only been riding 650b for less than a year, right?

    As an aside, I still think it's asinine that recreational riders, even competitive ones, pay any attention to what people like Kulhavy or Schurter are riding. What they are doing is NOTHING like what most people consider a fun day on a bike, even those of us who consider ourselves racers. That said, if Nino can bring some attention and interest to 650b, especially amongst the foot-dragging weightweenies who live in Europe, awesome.

    -Walt
    Please explain.

    I do agree that Scott will make 650b frames for us to buy. 2013 - 2014 tops for wait is my prediction.

  18. #18
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10ex View Post
    One might wonder why Orbea doesn't use Julian Absalon's success to sell 26'ers.
    Euro mags perhaps?

  19. #19
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post

    As an aside, I still think it's asinine that recreational riders, even competitive ones, pay any attention to what people like Kulhavy or Schurter are riding. What they are doing is NOTHING like what most people consider a fun day on a bike, even those of us who consider ourselves racers.
    -Walt
    It's the rider, not the bike. Schurter is not riding a secret superbike that only a pro can handle.

    UCI rules state:
    1.3.004 Bicycles shall be of a type that is or could be sold for use by anyone practising cycling as a sport. The use of a bicycle designed especially for the attainment of a particular performance (record or other) shall be not authorised.

    The fact Schurter can ride his stock 27.5" Scale a buzzilian times faster and more skillfully than I can is wholly irrelevant to whether I can use and have fun on the same bike, assuming I can find and afford it. I would ditch the tubulars for tubeless, and would opt for a new SRAM 1x 11 drivetrain on a carbon HT.

    I would not be racing it, but otherwise there's no reason that I or anyone else can't handle and appreciate the same bike Schurter rides.

    I would not buy it to copy Nino. I would only buy it to have a lightweight carbon HT with a wheel size I already know I like.



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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Please explain.

    I do agree that Scott will make 650b frames for us to buy. 2013 - 2014 tops for wait is my prediction.
    Correct, this time in 2013 (next year, 13 months from now) is when you will be able to buy 2014 model year product. If Scott (or anyone else for that matter) had 650b's you will see them NOW to Interbike time and available to buy now as well.

    I don't think too many companies have 650b for Spring delivery, but I've been wrong before. KHS and Jamis being the exception.

    So if you want a "production" bike it's still a solid year + out. Or Walt can make you one now.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    Correct, this time in 2013 (next year, 13 months from now) is when you will be able to buy 2014 model year product. If Scott (or anyone else for that matter) had 650b's you will see them NOW to Interbike time and available to buy now as well.

    I don't think too many companies have 650b for Spring delivery, but I've been wrong before. KHS and Jamis being the exception.

    So if you want a "production" bike it's still a solid year + out. Or Walt can make you one now.
    ..or you can order direct from china and get one very soon

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    Yes, but...

    As a former UCI elite racer, I can tell you that what works well (ie bars 8" below saddle, 1.8" tubs, drafting speeds and tactics, 200 riders on a 3.5 mile loop that's often mostly gravel and open grass, etc) for WC racing does not work for the kind of racing that most amateur racers do.

    So it's not that anything about the technology of the bike is problematic - it's that the setup and goals are completely different from what most people enjoy. Schurter picked the wheelsize because he couldn't get his desired 6" or whatever of bar drop on a 29er, right? At amateur speeds on real MTB courses, that kind of setup would be terrible.

    I think we are actually saying the same thing in a way - IE, if Nino riding 650b is creating interest, that is good. I am just pointing out that in general, people are silly to buy "race" bikes (regardless of wheel size) even if racing is something they like to do. To be fair, roadies are way worse about this (guys with 25# guts eating mayo on their frites, riding their 15 pound Madones which have drops never caressed by human hands and 80mm of headset spacers...sigh).

    I'm not trying to say that the extra attention Nino is creating is bad for 650b. On the contrary I think it's great that (hopefully) lots of silly people who think they want a race bike will buy 650b bikes, because then there will be more parts for those of us who are slightly less silly and want 650b for a more legit reason.

    -Walt


    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    It's the rider, not the bike. Schurter is not riding a secret superbike that only a pro can handle.

    UCI rules state:
    1.3.004 Bicycles shall be of a type that is or could be sold for use by anyone practising cycling as a sport. The use of a bicycle designed especially for the attainment of a particular performance (record or other) shall be not authorised.

    The fact Schurter can ride his stock 27.5" Scale a buzzilian times faster and more skillfully than I can is wholly irrelevant to whether I can use and have fun on the same bike, assuming I can find and afford it. I would ditch the tubulars for tubeless, and would opt for a new SRAM 1x 11 drivetrain on a carbon HT.

    I would not be racing it, but otherwise there's no reason that I or anyone else can't handle and appreciate the same bike Schurter rides.

    I would not buy it to copy Nino. I would only buy it to have a lightweight carbon HT with a wheel size I already know I like.



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  23. #23
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    As a former UCI elite racer, I can tell you that what works well (ie bars 8" below saddle, 1.8" tubs, drafting speeds and tactics, 200 riders on a 3.5 mile loop that's often mostly gravel and open grass, etc) for WC racing does not work for the kind of racing that most amateur racers do.

    So it's not that anything about the technology of the bike is problematic - it's that the setup and goals are completely different from what most people enjoy. Schurter picked the wheelsize because he couldn't get his desired 6" or whatever of bar drop on a 29er, right? At amateur speeds on real MTB courses, that kind of setup would be terrible.

    I think we are actually saying the same thing in a way - IE, if Nino riding 650b is creating interest, that is good. I am just pointing out that in general, people are silly to buy "race" bikes (regardless of wheel size) even if racing is something they like to do. To be fair, roadies are way worse about this (guys with 25# guts eating mayo on their frites, riding their 15 pound Madones which have drops never caressed by human hands and 80mm of headset spacers...sigh).

    I'm not trying to say that the extra attention Nino is creating is bad for 650b. On the contrary I think it's great that (hopefully) lots of silly people who think they want a race bike will buy 650b bikes, because then there will be more parts for those of us who are slightly less silly and want 650b for a more legit reason.

    -Walt
    We are on the same page. Also agreed more poseur roadies than mtb. Mtb poseurs more likely to break bones
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    As a former UCI elite racer, I can tell you that what works well (ie bars 8" below saddle, 1.8" tubs, drafting speeds and tactics, 200 riders on a 3.5 mile loop that's often mostly gravel and open grass, etc) for WC racing does not work for the kind of racing that most amateur racers do.

    So it's not that anything about the technology of the bike is problematic - it's that the setup and goals are completely different from what most people enjoy. Schurter picked the wheelsize because he couldn't get his desired 6" or whatever of bar drop on a 29er, right? At amateur speeds on real MTB courses, that kind of setup would be terrible.

    I think we are actually saying the same thing in a way - IE, if Nino riding 650b is creating interest, that is good. I am just pointing out that in general, people are silly to buy "race" bikes (regardless of wheel size) even if racing is something they like to do. To be fair, roadies are way worse about this (guys with 25# guts eating mayo on their frites, riding their 15 pound Madones which have drops never caressed by human hands and 80mm of headset spacers...sigh).

    I'm not trying to say that the extra attention Nino is creating is bad for 650b. On the contrary I think it's great that (hopefully) lots of silly people who think they want a race bike will buy 650b bikes, because then there will be more parts for those of us who are slightly less silly and want 650b for a more legit reason.

    -Walt
    Exact same thing happens in the world of surfing. Kids see Slater on an uber light spacecake shortboard that barely floats and they want one for their first board.

    Gotta look "pro" right

    Bad idea and lengthens learning curve quite a bit for most kids.

    As long as the owner understands what they are buying and how it will affect their riding style, it's all good. A win win..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    As a former UCI elite racer, I can tell you that what works well (ie bars 8" below saddle, 1.8" tubs, drafting speeds and tactics, 200 riders on a 3.5 mile loop that's often mostly gravel and open grass, etc) for WC racing does not work for the kind of racing that most amateur racers do.

    So it's not that anything about the technology of the bike is problematic - it's that the setup and goals are completely different from what most people enjoy. Schurter picked the wheelsize because he couldn't get his desired 6" or whatever of bar drop on a 29er, right? At amateur speeds on real MTB courses, that kind of setup would be terrible.


    -Walt
    Walt, with all due respect, have you been watching any of the WC races over the last couple of years? The courses are nothing like you've mentioned. The push is to short loops yes, but with very steep climbs and descents, along with increased technical sections. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people who consider themselves MTBers couldn't even ride some of the stuff on a typical WC course like MSA, Champery, La Bresse, etc.

    Nino can ride his 26" bike down technical terrain faster than most people could a road bike on smooth asphalt

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