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  1. #1
    Axe
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    The next big thing after 650b.

    Here is my bold prediction.

    Once there are a lot of 650b frames and forks out there - somebody will start running them with very large volume 26" tires.. around 3.0", for same diameter as 650b.. With 15psi or so pressure. Kinda like a smaller fatbike.

    If I would to design my trailbike frame of the future, I would want a 3.0" light tire, something like narrower 45nrth Escalator, on 26" rim - ~40mm inner width. 83mm BB, but with same Q-factor as standard ones being 1x11, 1x10 specific. 150x12 rear axle. 650b fork. 120 - 130 mm travel on both ends.

    We should ask Kirk Pacenti make such a rim and tire. Hey, gotta be cutting edge...

  2. #2
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    From an outside standpoint (haven't ridden anything but 26"ers since forever) I don't see any attraction in your aproach.
    26" Fatties are readily available, and everybody seems to tend towards fatter not narrower.
    29+ though the new kid on the block, seems to be underwhelming (read not that much more exciting compared to standard 29")
    the only logical result woult be 27,5" with fat tires. You get the outer diameter of a 29er with an as fat as possible tyre or a more standard setup with narrower tires (read: best of both worlds...)

    In the end, there will be probably everything available, you just pick a frame with the desired tire clearance and then hand pick the components you need.

    I'd predict there will be 26" medium to fat tires, 27,5" narrow to fat tires, 29" narrow to medium tires. If for example the 29"+ size prevails, remains to be seen. I'd say everything above 2,5" on a 29"er doesn't make too much sense (especially if you have to choose betwheen light or durable). But that's just my theoretical opinion.

    I'd love to have a bike that allows everything up to 4,0" tire width on a 27,5" rim. Probably build like the new Kona Explosiv 650B. That would be my do everything trail bike. Have 2 Sets of wheels (one at about 2,35" and one at 3,7") and just ride all year round on the same bike.

    Cheers
    Dan

  3. #3
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    I think the problem is that a 3" tire is likely to rub the side knobs on the seatstays or chainstays. For tires that wide you really need a frame specifically designed for them.
    2012 On One Whippet 650b
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  4. #4
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    Already done, but with a Raleigh xxix 29er frame. Already has more room and according to the mtbr thread diameter is similar to stock 29

  5. #5
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
    Already done, but with a Raleigh xxix 29er frame. Already has more room and according to the mtbr thread diameter is similar to stock 29
    Of cause there is nothing new. Just like DH bikes had been running very fat 24" tires in the rear, which where almost as tall as regular 26" ones. 650b were not new either - but it took 29" popularity to draw attention to the whole wheel diameter game.

    And the booming fatbike trend will show a lot of people the benefits of wide/low pressure tire approach. It is just fatbikes seem a bit on the extreme end, once you start add suspension for bigger hits..

    Just prognosticating.

  6. #6
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by huhue View Post
    From an outside standpoint (haven't ridden anything but 26"ers since forever) I don't see any attraction in your aproach.
    26" Fatties are readily available, and everybody seems to tend towards fatter not narrower.
    That's what they said when 650b came out. 29" are readily available, and everybody seems to tend towards larger.

    Suspension. The difference is suspension. And Q-factor. Once you start using fatties for more regular trail use you would want more of the former and less of the latter.

    Just like 29" wheels lead to the interest for the M size, 4"-5" tires will lead to interest in ~3" ones... And we will have frames and forks to fit them. In a year or two, pretty much all forks will be designed with 650b in mind, and they will fit 3" 26" tires. Yeah, side knobs, but you do not need as tall knobs on fatties to get traction.
    Last edited by Axe; 03-30-2013 at 09:46 AM.

  7. #7
    just some guy
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    I'd be more interested in a "28er" rim and tire, that could retro-fit onto 650b frames. Just to see what it is like. Crazy heh?

  8. #8
    Axe
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    Called it. New Surly Instigator.

    The next big thing after 650b.-surly-bikes-saddle-drive-1.jpg

    With Dirt Wizard tires.

    The next big thing after 650b.-surly-bikes-saddle-drive-6.jpg

    50mm rims, 26x2.75" tires with a 650b suspension fork. It will happen.

    Looks like enough room for 3.0"

    The next big thing after 650b.-surly-bikes-saddle-drive-4-400x600.jpg

  9. #9
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    That sucker have 83mm bb?

    My next rig gonna have 83mm bb for sure.. that thing would be a sweet dualie

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by axe View Post
    called it. New surly instigator.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    with dirt wizard tires.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    50mm rims, 26x2.75" tires with a 650b suspension fork. It will happen.

    looks like enough room for 3.0"

    Click image for larger version. 

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    likey!

  11. #11
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    Anybody have a release date "guess" on the Dirt Wizard?

    Hopefully Surly has it together a little better this time around, the drawn out release of the Knard was a real downer.

    Also, on tire durability, the 120tpi are thin casings, not any more durable than a Racing Ralph, so opt for the wire bead 27tpi if you are riding rough; even the 27tpi is not all that durable.

    I'm hoping that Surly bumps the casing on the Dirt Wizard so it is more like a std folding 26 x 4" Knard 120tpi, which is a nice "middle ground" casing for all surface use.

    I like my Knard, but it sure is a tall fat tire, I can see a nice niche for a mid tall fatty.

  12. #12
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Also, on tire durability, the 120tpi are thin casings, not any more durable than a Racing Ralph, so opt for the wire bead 27tpi if you are riding rough; even the 27tpi is not all that durable.
    Don't some tires quote tpi as a sum of plies? I think I saw Mountain King 3-ply racesport listed as 180tpi, and 4-ply Protection as 240 - difference being an extra 60tpi layer.

  13. #13
    bike rider
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    Why? Except for riding in snow and sand I don't see a reason for such wide tires. My tires range from 2.1"-2.7" and the 2.7s have noticable drag and are only preferable for steep downhills.
    Keep the Country country.

  14. #14
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    I'd be more interested in a "28er" rim and tire, that could retro-fit onto 650b frames. Just to see what it is like. Crazy heh?
    Or some super tall 650 tires, with burly stiff sidewalls.
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  15. #15
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    Why?
    Traction and comfort.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Called it. New Surly Instigator.
    So now the next big thing has to be 650+, right? C'mon surly, how bout a 2.75" 650 b tire. We need to bridge the gap from 650 to 29. You could even call it the "27.5 squared", or just the Surly Square.
    NEMBA Freetown VP

  17. #17
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    "Don't some tires quote tpi as a sum of plies? I think I saw Mountain King 3-ply racesport listed as 180tpi, and 4-ply Protection as 240 - difference being an extra 60tpi layer. "

    Generally higher TPI means less rubber, which explains why high tpi tires feel more supple. Supple is fine if the casing is durable, like a Maxxis EXO or Scwalbe Snakeskin, but Surly doesn't use high tech casings, so for their tires a bit more rubber is a bit more durable.

    I also think Surly did something funny with the Knard 29". I had a 120tpi Knard 26 x 4" and a 120tpi Knard 29", they were not the same casing at all, the 29" casing was very thin, whereas the 26" casing felt like a standard Surly folding fat tire. I sold the 120tpi 29" Knard and got a 27tpi 29" Knard, and it felt like the 120tpi 26" Knard???

    Go figure.

    So when is this amazing Dirt Wizard going to be available? Is Surly gonna drag their feet on this one like they did with the Knard?? Seriously, if they make dealers hold onto a set of tires to be sold with a frameset, like they did with the Krampus, that is so lame!

    Most of the Dirt Wizard buyers will be looking at four seasoning their fat tire bikes,; then there are the muni folks like me Seriously, the Instigator is just another bike.

  18. #18
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    a smaller/ lighter fs frame with fat tires and 130mm travel would be pretty interesting.

  19. #19
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    I think a frame like that should be available for all wheel sizes. Something like MC's Fatmoth.

    Genre busting bikepacking rig?

    With the wide range of tires, it'll really make wheel sizes completely customizable, anything from a 2.0 26er right up that 3.0 29er, and everything in between. A huge 27.5 tire is needed to bridge the gap to 29, but I bet it'll happen.
    NEMBA Freetown VP

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