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  1. #1
    just some guy
    Reputation: talabardio's Avatar
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    MOOTS - 'off the back' on 650B. Other Ti 6fiddyB frames?

    While (Moots founder) Kent Eriksen and custom builder Jim Kish have been turning out 650b masterpieces since day one, it seems, I reluctantly must report that the good folks now running Moots seem remarkably "off the back" when dealing with the 27.5 phenomenon. I contacted Moots about 2 years ago about a new 650b frame to replace my venerable YBB, and the woman on the other end seemed almost, well, sky-high, when it came to discussing a straightforward medium 650b hardtail...extremely disappointing and odd experience. Must be some great weed out there in Colorado!

    One Year Ago on Moots Forums: "At this time we see very little reason to go with 650b. Tires are very limited, forks...well, there are none at this time that can safely run a tire without the chance of topping out the tire in the fork arch. We are loving the 29ers and will continue down this path. We have however, looked at all the + 's & -'s to make sure we can speak with some knowledge. You won't see a 650b from us in the near future...but never say never. As for retro-fitting a Moots 26er with 650b wheels....they might fit, but will give almost zero clearance from tire to chainstay...a slightly out of true wheel, some mud or a rock would have a very hard time fitting through."

    One Month Ago on Moots Forums: "At this time we are not willing to make a custom 650B frame...even as a custom. There is much more involved other than just building one. Can we do it...sure...but behind the scenes the major sticking point is tooling. More to the point...chainstay tooling. The bends required to make tire clearance and chainring clearance is pretty involved. The shapes you see on our bikes take an investment of time and the building of new benders and jig tooling to hold those correctly for mitering, tacking and welding. Have we thought about a 650b?? Sure. We keep tabs on trends...Fox and Rock Shox are coming with forks by mid-late summer, which is good...gotta have forks....will 2013 be the year 650b hits the masses?....too early to tell."

    Maybe Eriksen or Kish could send them some chain stays to use? Anyways, if you have been hoping for a Moots 650b frame...dream on. They may "me-too" release a 6-fiddyB frame long after the phenomenon has hit mainstream but that's about it, no love for the format there.

    So there is Eriksen and Kish, both of whom are awesome, I've seen a Serotta... is anyone else making a nice Ti frame for 6fiddyB?

  2. #2
    middle ring single track
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    Carver?

    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    format there.

    So there is Eriksen and Kish, both of whom are awesome, I've seen a Serotta... is anyone else making a nice Ti frame for 6fiddyB?
    Ti KillerB (650B)
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  3. #3
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
    Reputation: Kirk Pacenti's Avatar
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    Scott Quiring does nice work.
    .:: i-Gallery 4.1 - Main Folder ::.

    Cheers,
    KP
    “Those that say it can’t be done should get out of the way of those doing it.”

    Pacenti Cycle Design

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Pacenti View Post
    Scott Quiring does nice work.
    .:: i-Gallery 4.1 - Main Folder ::.

    Cheers,
    KP
    Yes he does!

  5. #5
    Got A Lust for Life...
    Reputation: indyfab25's Avatar
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    That is hilarious. Off the back indeed.
    I am immune to your disdain.

  6. #6
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
    Reputation: Kirk Pacenti's Avatar
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    Independent Fabrications has made quite a few too...
    “Those that say it can’t be done should get out of the way of those doing it.”

    Pacenti Cycle Design

  7. #7
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    To ride this trail is completely free.
    Just show me a triangle..... make it three!

  8. #8
    just some guy
    Reputation: talabardio's Avatar
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Wizard View Post
    Kristinka's Van Nicholas is pretty nice.
    I especially like the:
    Van Nicholas Titanium Hip Flask, 47 gram
    !!!

  9. #9
    mtbr member
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    However the value of that flask will increase with the contents, thus raising the weight of said item. Weight weenie, to be or not be, that is the question. Easy answer, I say!


    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    I especially like the:
    Van Nicholas Titanium Hip Flask, 47 gram
    !!!

  10. #10
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    Been riding a custom Ti IF made for a 650 in the back and a 29er in the front for 3 years now. I am not a frame builder by any means but they didn't hesitate to build what I wanted. Minimum BB drop and tight back end with the momentum and rollover traits of the 29er front,... makes for a nice weapon in the woods.....and I don't even have to worry about scratching it when I chuck it in the back of my truck!

  11. #11
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    I have had a few long conversations with a good buddy of mine at Moots. He's a lifer there and is a really great guy.

    They are being honest about their concerns. They are a small, agile company. They won't tool up just for a few bikes. They weren't the first on 29 and they won't be early with 650b. I don't think it's fair to call them 'off the back' for answering your questions in an honest way. There's no right answer to that question, it's just not right for them right now. I know they spent a TON of time and resources on their new Divide bikes. They could have been developing a 650b bike. I think you are being disingenuous if you say they should have been working on 650 instead of those bikes.

    Hey, at least they were honest. I heard from quite a few manufacturers who said 'no way in hell' who now have product out. And that was just last year!

    I'm sure you could find riders who thing Moots is off the back for still making Ti bikes...

    I don't think any of us need Moots to make 650b bikes for us to like Moots or 650b. They are one of the best companies out there and one of the few legacy small builders to not sh*t the bed and leave the industry... Oh, and their bikes kick arse.

    mk

  12. #12
    Witty McWitterson
    Reputation: ~martini~'s Avatar
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    take your pick of any number of Ti custom builders out there. They'll do it. Moots is indeed off the back. Their loss. Commitment to a brand only works for so long, you know.

    Vertigo, Form, Quiring. All build fantastic bikes, well worth the money.
    Just a regular guy.

  13. #13
    just some guy
    Reputation: talabardio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michauxslovakian View Post
    Been riding a custom Ti IF made for a 650 in the back and a 29er in the front for 3 years now. I am not a frame builder by any means but they didn't hesitate to build what I wanted. Minimum BB drop and tight back end with the momentum and rollover traits of the 29er front,... makes for a nice weapon in the woods.....and I don't even have to worry about scratching it when I chuck it in the back of my truck!
    That sounds nice - any pics?

  14. #14
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    I think Moots is a bit bigger than all of those builders. It's different when you are already tooling up for each bike as opposed to how Moots is set up.

    mk

  15. #15
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    I can see where Moots is coming from. I believe they bend and shape all tubes in house. They don't buy them pre-bent, like smaller builders. They even manufacture their own dropouts now, instead of buying them. I'd rather see them take their time, and get right, instead of jumping on the "bandwagon" just to get product out the door. There were plenty of companies that did that when the 29er started to get hot.

    No, I'm not a die hard Moots supporter, but I have owned a couple.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~ View Post
    Commitment to a brand only works for so long, you know.
    WTF does that mean? Seriously. Does every brand need to make every kind of mountain bike in order to keep customers?

    How about NO.

    I'm getting so sick of the bicycling industry because of that attitude. I watched my local bike company crumble under the pressure of the 29er and carbon attitudes. I'm so tired of bike dorks.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velosprocket View Post
    I'd rather see them take their time, and get right, instead of jumping on the "bandwagon" just to get product out the door.
    Thank you!

    Honestly, people have no patience. Especially on this ****ing website. Give it time people.

  18. #18
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    I agree, naughty tandem picture guy!

    And why is that pic so small!? FAIL!

    mk

  19. #19
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    I remember having excellent customer service with Moots in the past. Perhaps as mentioned, they'll do 650b when it's right for them.

    Quiring does make super nice ti frames!

  20. #20
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    It is absolutely impossible that they couldn't bend some chainstays by hand in less than an hour. It's certainly not my place to be saying that but the assertion boggles my mind.
    If you know how to make bicycles the amount of effort that it takes to bend some chainstays, especially ones that are damn-near if not fully identical to most of the stays that they use, especially if they make them in house. Like, totally freaking impossible.

    edit:
    It's just so dang easy to build 650b hardtail frames. SO easy. The beauty of the size is that you don't have to do anything fancy at all for clearance.
    So easy.
    Did I mention how easy it is?
    Last edited by SuspectDevice; 04-09-2012 at 05:42 PM.

  21. #21
    bump and grind
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    Im not a builder or profess to know anything about frame building, but I think its a bit hard to imagine how it would be so difficult and require substantial re-tooling to move the dropout an extra .75 of an inch rearward. I mean Moots still makes custom frames, don't they?

  22. #22
    Stubby-legged
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    Off the back...you know who is "off the back' now (for me anyway), is Joe Graney from Santa Cruz. On the bikerumor site/interview. He says one thing he can do without..."f!%king 650b!"
    Makes me rethink my FS frame choice....

  23. #23
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    To those that are defending Moots, it really comes down to that as 650b proponents we want to support those companies that are driving the size. The size would have matured much faster if so many companies weren't sitting around saying stuff like "there aren't any tires or forks". All of us have had tires and forks for several years now. There is nothing worse than a company that sits around waiting for everyone to jump on the bandwagon, then tries to come late to the party and say "we knew 650b would be awesome, we just wanted to make sure we got it right before we built a 650b bike". As cyclists we want the companies we buy from to be enthusiasts, not just companies trying to make a buck (think of all the hatred for Specialized). And as already mentioned it is not that hard to make a 650b frame, so that is just a lame excuse.
    2012 On One Whippet 650b
    2012 Santa Cruz TRc 650b
    2014 On One Dirty Disco
    2010 Soma Groove
    1987 Haro RS1

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69erEverything View Post
    WTF does that mean? Seriously. Does every brand need to make every kind of mountain bike in order to keep customers?

    How about NO.

    I'm getting so sick of the bicycling industry because of that attitude. I watched my local bike company crumble under the pressure of the 29er and carbon attitudes. I'm so tired of bike dorks.
    Pressure? It's called market demands, the concept is not new.

  25. #25
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    You guys need to keep in mind that lots of people in the bike industry are grumpy for fun and profit.
    Grumpy=opinion and opinion= product differentiation.


    The "line" is often carefully constructed for all sorts of reasons, keep that in mind too. Sometimes you need to keep some cards close to your chest and sometimes you need to re-direct attention to the product that already exists.

    (I mean heck, there are pictures of Santacruz bikes with enve 650b rims floating around on the net somewhere...)

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