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  1. #1
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    Going Tubelss, Help

    Hi,

    Just got my Neo Moto and Stans ZR 355 650B rim built. I've read most of the posts about using just the yellow tape vs. rim strip. Anyway, I've decided to try just the yellow tape with the tubeless quick valve that came with the rim.

    How much Stan's sealant should I use? The instructions say 80 ml and someone posted 120 ml. Not sure here

    Can I get away with removing the tire bead slightly and just pouring the sealant directly into the tire? or should I spend the extra money on the bottle and squirt through the presta valve?

    Before I add sealant do I inflate the tire to seal the bead so it will hold air?

    Is it critical to seal the yellow tape to the rim by inflating the tire with a tube for an hour?

    What is the maintenance using this type of set up? I.e. refilling? cleaning out old sealant? needing a new tire because of week side walls causing leakage? This system is considerably more money to use, if tire replacement, maintenance and reliability are sacrificed than I my run a tube.

    Thanks for any advice.

    David

  2. #2
    BWG
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    I run the yellow tape with tubeless Stan's valves on Flow rims. I have used Rampage and Nevegal tires with no problems. I didn't inflate with a tube first to seat the tape, and I didn't inflate the tire to seat the bead first before adding the fluid. This works if you have a relatively tight-fitting tire, but may not if you don't.

    I use 2 of the red scoops (included in the kit) of stan's in each tire (shake well first). I haven't had any luck using the syringe thru the valve stem - it starts to clump up - so I seat the tire fully on both beads and then pull back a small section of bead on one side and pour the fluid into the casing. Reseat the bead, rotate the wheel to fully coat the entire inner surface of the tire and rim and then rotate the wheel so the valve stem is at the top to reduce lost fluid during inflation (fluid will be at the bottom). Slowly add air until it seals. Some fluid will leak out but will seal the tire. Lay the wheel on it's side over a bucket after inflation to keep the liquid covering the bead - flip it over occasionaly to help seal both sides.

    Let it sit overnight and add air as needed. I don't usually get a perfect seal until after the first ride. You'll have to add air occasionally- probably more than than with a tube. The fluid will gum up and harden after 6 months or so and need to be replaced. The good news is I've NEVER gotten a flat with this system in two years - even when I got a thorn in the tire. I pulled the thorn out after the ride (never lost air) and it sealed right up. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by BWG; 09-27-2008 at 12:22 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWG
    I run the yellow tape with tubeless Stan's valves on Flow rims. I have used Rampage and Nevegal tires with no problems. I didn't inflate with a tube first to seat the tape, and I didn't inflate the tire to seat the bead first before adding the fluid. This works if you have a relatively tight-fitting tire, but may not if you don't.

    I use 2 of the red scoops (included in the kit) of stan's in each tire (shake well first). I haven't had any luck using the syringe thru the valve stem - it starts to clump up - so I seat the tire fully on both beads and then pull back a small section of bead on one side and pour the fluid into the casing. Reseat the bead, rotate the wheel to fully coat the entire inner surface of the tire and rim and then rotate the wheel so the valve stem is at the top to reduce lost fluid during inflation (fluid will be at the bottom). Slowly add air until it seals. Some fluid will leak out but will seal the tire. Lay the wheel on it's side over a bucket after inflation to keep the liquid covering the bead - flip it over occasionaly to help seal both sides.

    Let it sit overnight and add air as needed. I don't usually get a perfect seal until after the first ride. You'll have to add air occasionally- probably more than than with a tube. The fluid will gum up and harden after 6 months or so and need to be replaced. The good news is I've NEVER gotten a flat with this system in two years - even when I got a thorn in the tire. I pulled the thorn out after the ride (never lost air) and it sealed right up. Hope this helps.

    BWG,

    So at the 6 month mark you need to clean out gooy mess and reseal?

    David

  4. #4
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    I find putting 3-4 scoops helps avoid the problem of opening the tire back up, cleaning up the mess and adding more fluid. Plus, the extra helps seal up big holes and small slices

  5. #5
    Mtc
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    You should use two on a new tire or in hot climates. One should work the rest of the time. The only people I've seen use 3-4 are downhillers with huge tires. If you want added sealing power mix some mold builder into the stans.

  6. #6
    BWG
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTB'n Louie
    BWG,

    So at the 6 month mark you need to clean out gooy mess and reseal?

    David
    Yes, some of it will be thin liquid and some will be rubbery clumps of latex. I unseat one bead comletely and just wipe it out with a rag or paper towels and add some more.

  7. #7
    TNC
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    Louie, two other guys at the shop I work at are using the Neo/ZTR355/yellow tape only setup and haven't had any problems. They are riding Epics. I'm riding a Nomad, and I'm a little leary of running the Neo without a rim strip on my front Neo/ZTR355 setup. I'm no professional downhiller or freerider by any means, but I do ride aggressively in rocky terrain. I experienced a front tire blowoff with those undersized Velocity Blunts even with a rim strip, so I'd rather not play that one back.

    I'm currently using the yellow tape under a Stan's Olympic rim strip, and it has been bulletproof in our rocky terrain. An Olympic rim strip isn't that heavy, and I'll take the added security any day.

    As far as adding sealant later on with either just the yellow tape or a strip, this isn't a big issue. Just peel the bead back enough to see how much sealant is left and add accordingly. I think only extremely weight conscious extremists should be concerned about any balled up latex or excess "goo" that one might see inside the tire when servicing the sealant level. If you're running a strip, the bead and strip should have sealed to the point that you need to carefully peel the strip away from the bead enough to access the inside of the tire to add sealant. That's a good sign. It means the integrity of the bead/strip seal is excellent, and if your tire bead lifts a bit in a traction rich corner or hits a rock just right, the strip is still sealing the air chamber. That's what they're supposed to do. The ZTR355 seals the Neo better than most other rims I'm aware of, so this is probably the only reason it works decently with just the yellow tape. I'd just warn that if you're a decently aggressive rider...be careful.

  8. #8
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    I'm running the same tire and rim setup you have. I'm just using the yellow tape the way the wheel came from Stans. It took me awhile to get the tire to seat but I found the trick (as others will tell you) is LOTS of soapy water. That was my first tire using this process and it took the longest. I'm also running Hutchinson tubeless-ready tires on a Stans 29er rim and two 26 inch rear wheels I have converted using Stans strips.

    FWIW, the Hutchinson tires seat much more quickly than the NeoMoto, probably because the bead is designed to do that.

    I have tried putting the sealant in before seating the bead, but I would not recommend that. It makes a mess. I removed the valve cores and poured the fluid in through the valve. I actually seated the beads with the valve core out, because that allows more air flow.

    I used a lot less sealant than others are recommending. What I have done is add a little sealant one day at a time until the tire holds air. Probably less than one whole scoop total in each tire. All four tires are holding air now.

    I have not removed or serviced the fluid level in any tire yet, because I did all of this mucking around during the summer. In the past, when my tubeless tires began to lose air "overnight" I just added more sealant without removing the tire or cleaning it. I assume this might lead to some buildup over time, but that has not concerned me too much.
    germs, needles, milk, death, snakes, mushrooms, heights, crowds, elevators

  9. #9
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    Thanks for all of the help. I mounted my tire last night with just the yellow tape. I'll soap up today and try the initial seal before adding the sealant. I watched all of the No tubes movies and he (Stan ?) doesn't mention using the sealant, just his rim strips. I probably should have used the strip, but at this point I guess I'll try w/o. I'll do the burp tests Stan did in the movies to see how it "burps up". Hey, did I make up a new word?

    Thanks again for all of the replies.

    David

  10. #10
    BWG
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    I think only extremely weight conscious extremists should be concerned about any balled up latex or excess "goo" that one might see inside the tire when servicing the sealant level.


    Yep, that's why I recommended wiping out the clumped up sealant that will no longer work (I only weigh 260lbs).

  11. #11
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    WOW, a little soap with a brush the the tire popped 3x's and sealed air tight without using any sealant. If I used the strip I'd probably try riding it without the sealant.

    I noticed that the amount of air pressure in a tubeless dosen't give the same firmness as with a tube. 25 psi in tubeless feels more like 30 in a tubed tire.

    More later

    David

  12. #12
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    Be careful with air pressure.

    one benefit of tubeless setup is the ability to use less pressure for better traction without pinch flatting. I think if you go too hard, though, you risk blowing off a bead. Check the recommendations and stick with that. Also, without sealant I find the tires lose air overnight every night. You also lose the ability to seal punctures. If you paint the bead/rim interface with soapy water you will probably see bubbles in all the places the tire is leaking air.

    On the other hand, I do know people who run tubeless tires without "goo." I expect that won't work with the Neo Moto or other converted tire/rim combinations.
    germs, needles, milk, death, snakes, mushrooms, heights, crowds, elevators

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTB'n Louie
    WOW, a little soap with a brush the the tire popped 3x's and sealed air tight without using any sealant. If I used the strip I'd probably try riding it without the sealant.

    I noticed that the amount of air pressure in a tubeless dosen't give the same firmness as with a tube. 25 psi in tubeless feels more like 30 in a tubed tire.

    More later

    David
    I would not run without sealant cause you lose your ability to seal up any porous sections of the tire's sidewalls, tiny leaks between the rim/bead as well as puncture protection.
    Another option is ghetto tubeless that has worked really well for me with those rims and tires and no $ rim strip if you decide to try something else beside yellow strip.

  14. #14
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    I added the sealant last night, Other than blowing the tire off of the rim because of too much air; it went easier than changing a tubed tire. It sealed up quickly, it just seams too easy.

    What kind of air pressures does everyone run? I've got 24 psi in it and it seems still kind of hard. I'm going to try maybe 22 psi. I don't what to burp the tire or bend the rim though.

    The physical appearance of the wheel seems perfect for a 5 inch travel bike. Not too small and not too large. Actually, the new tubeless 650B Neo wheel set up is 38 grams lighter than my original 26" Kenda tube set up. That's a plus, as long as the Stan's rim holds up as well as my 4.1 DT.

    Anyway can't wait to try on the trail, maybe if the rain stops and I can get out of work early.

    David

  15. #15
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    air pressures?

    TNC, what air pressures are you running tubeless with the ZTR's for your area? I think you have much rock and gravel in the Austin, TX area, and would need higher pressures than the low traction dusty and muddy dirt trail or loamy forest trail condtions most other ride areas have.

    In my Northern California conditions where it's dusty or muddy, dirt and gravel and large and small rocks and roots where traction is normally pretty low. For decades I've used under 30psi with or without tubes in 26 inch wheels. With the higher volume 28mm wide rimmed 650b wheels I've gone about 2 to 3 psi lower than 26 wheels, using 24/28 psi front/rear in 650b now for best rolling resistance, traction, and cornering stability. More pressure than that and the handling feel gets harsh and bouncy hitting rocks in the mostly hardpack dirt and dusty gravel trails.

    When vacationing and riding in the desert I like riding slickrock and other very rocky trails. There's much off-camber and very high traction on slickrock, and trails are mostly much rougher than most California conditions with little smooth dirt or dust to reduce traction on the rocks, gravel, and sand. So I have typically added 5 psi using tubes to keep tire flex and pinch flats minimal. But with tubes I get flats from thorns and want to try tubeless on a trip soon to the desert. Last year I had a 26 inch rear wheel, DT Swiss 5.1d with a regular Rampage 2.3 converted tubeless with rim strips, which blew off the rim using 35 or 36 psi while I had just stopped to enjoy a view after climbing about 2 or 3 miles to near the top of Bootleg Canyon near Las Vegas (very high traction desert rocky conditions). I had used the same tire and rim for many months before set up tubeless at 30psi with no issues in lower traction California conditions. And the DT Swiss rims are a tubeless ready design (for UST beads).

    I'm thinking 35 psi is just too high pressure for tubeless converted non-UST bead tires. Are you using high pressures with the Neo-moto/ZTR rim?

  16. #16
    TNC
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    TNC, what air pressures are you running tubeless with the ZTR's for your area? I think you have much rock and gravel in the Austin, TX area, and would need higher pressures than the low traction dusty and muddy dirt trail or loamy forest trail condtions most other ride areas have.

    In my Northern California conditions where it's dusty or muddy, dirt and gravel and large and small rocks and roots where traction is normally pretty low. For decades I've used under 30psi with or without tubes in 26 inch wheels. With the higher volume 28mm wide rimmed 650b wheels I've gone about 2 to 3 psi lower than 26 wheels, using 24/28 psi front/rear in 650b now for best rolling resistance, traction, and cornering stability. More pressure than that and the handling feel gets harsh and bouncy hitting rocks in the mostly hardpack dirt and dusty gravel trails.

    When vacationing and riding in the desert I like riding slickrock and other very rocky trails. There's much off-camber and very high traction on slickrock, and trails are mostly much rougher than most California conditions with little smooth dirt or dust to reduce traction on the rocks, gravel, and sand. So I have typically added 5 psi using tubes to keep tire flex and pinch flats minimal. But with tubes I get flats from thorns and want to try tubeless on a trip soon to the desert. Last year I had a 26 inch rear wheel, DT Swiss 5.1d with a regular Rampage 2.3 converted tubeless with rim strips, which blew off the rim using 35 or 36 psi while I had just stopped to enjoy a view after climbing about 2 or 3 miles to near the top of Bootleg Canyon near Las Vegas (very high traction desert rocky conditions). I had used the same tire and rim for many months before set up tubeless at 30psi with no issues in lower traction California conditions. And the DT Swiss rims are a tubeless ready design (for UST beads).

    I'm thinking 35 psi is just too high pressure for tubeless converted non-UST bead tires. Are you using high pressures with the Neo-moto/ZTR rim?
    derby, I'm running 30-32 front and 34 rear. The front is the Neo, of course, but I run true UST-only rear tires now because I constantly cut anything less on the back of my Nomad. I'm not sure at what point the suspension of the bike and suspension offered by the tires start to overlap, if you know what I mean. On a long travel bike like the Nomad and others, I think you have to be a little careful in fast, rocky terrain as to your tire pressure. These bikes really let you pound aggressively through truly horrible terrain. Some contend that more travel lets you run lower pressure because the suspension reduces abuse on the tire. I contend there is still a balancing act between the two.

    This tubeless tire pressure has always been interesting to me. From the beginning, the tubeless tire manufacturers touted that you could run 35 psi in a tubeless tire and get way better traction and rolling quality over a tubed tire. I agree. Now the debate is how low one can go before trouble starts...pinched and cut tire carcasses...or bead blowoffs. For me, 30-34 has been that point. I get no benefit from going lower, and in fact I get tire squirm as I go further into the 20's range. I think less aggessive trails and riding will allow lower pressure, but I'm not sure where that balance might occur. It's probably a bit different for each rider.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    derby, I'm running 30-32 front and 34 rear. The front is the Neo, of course, but I run true UST-only rear tires now because I constantly cut anything less on the back of my Nomad. I'm not sure at what point the suspension of the bike and suspension offered by the tires start to overlap, if you know what I mean. On a long travel bike like the Nomad and others, I think you have to be a little careful in fast, rocky terrain as to your tire pressure. These bikes really let you pound aggressively through truly horrible terrain. Some contend that more travel lets you run lower pressure because the suspension reduces abuse on the tire. I contend there is still a balancing act between the two.

    This tubeless tire pressure has always been interesting to me. From the beginning, the tubeless tire manufacturers touted that you could run 35 psi in a tubeless tire and get way better traction and rolling quality over a tubed tire. I agree. Now the debate is how low one can go before trouble starts...pinched and cut tire carcasses...or bead blowoffs. For me, 30-34 has been that point. I get no benefit from going lower, and in fact I get tire squirm as I go further into the 20's range. I think less aggessive trails and riding will allow lower pressure, but I'm not sure where that balance might occur. It's probably a bit different for each rider.
    Those sound like pressures I'd also want to use in rocky high traction conditions with the 650b front only tire combination. A 650b rear could probably go a couple psi lower with the same tire flex feel and rim protection.

    And yes, pressures are more complicated using suspension. Some rider prefer more feedback or push the bike harder than others, and want firmer suspension including using firmer tire pressures. My pressures using 5.5 inch travel are about 4 -5 psi greater now compared to the minimum pressure I used back in the '80's when there were only rigid trail bikes. Back then I used to start a ride with near rock hard high pressures while there was mostly climbing for lower rolling resistance on hardpack, then bleed off about 15 psi for the downhill rocky trail rewards (I did often pinch flat). Iíve always used hand feel to measure tire pressure, and know what pressures those are from pumps with gauges now. Back before there were gauges on pumps one time a friend measured my tire pressures and found I had just 22 psi from the end of the previous ride before I aired up to near 40psi for the start of a new ride. With suspension I'm able to ride much faster when rough, corner harder, and jump much larger. The tires must have greater peak loads on them to now need more than my minimum pressures used on rigid bikes and I rarely flat now even with tubes.

  18. #18
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    What kind of air pressures does everyone run? I've got 24 psi in it and it seems still kind of hard. I'm going to try maybe 22 psi. I don't what to burp the tire or bend the rim though.
    Depending on terrain About 26-27 in back and 25-26 in front at 170lbs body weight <(big factor in deciding what is the correct pressure.)
    Neos front and back on Stans ztr 355 rims on 5" travel back built xcountry where I often run locked out front and back for climbing (Ibis Mojo SL.) I would not run any lower pressure cause handling is perfect there for me, but I think I could probably do a little over 20 if I wanted without to much casing collapse.
    Also, spent quite a bit of time running them around 28-30 lbs before I dropped the pressure a bit as they gained traction and became a bit more supple at the lower pressure. No flats in over a month of hard rock garden Colorado front range riding. Where non tubeless I generally flatted at least once a week.
    I'm finding overnight I lose about 4-5 lbs pressure per tire. (During a ride not much at all say maybe a pound over 6 hours. )

  19. #19
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    going tubeless

    I'm about the try the tubeless setup for the firs time with Stan's arch wheels and 2.35 nevegals using just the yellow tape. I think I'm going to try and pour in the sealant through valve stem. Any special tool needed to remove the cores?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by attaboy
    I'm about the try the tubeless setup for the firs time with Stan's arch wheels and 2.35 nevegals using just the yellow tape. I think I'm going to try and pour in the sealant through valve stem. Any special tool needed to remove the cores?
    If Presta you need special Presta valves with removable cores and then you can loosen and tighten them them with needle nose pliers and by hand. If Schrader, you need a special tool made for removing the core, available at auto parts stores.

  21. #21
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    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    If Presta you need special Presta valves with removable cores and then you can loosen and tighten them them with needle nose pliers and by hand. If Schrader, you need a special tool made for removing the core, available at auto parts stores.
    Appreciate it. That's what I needed to know.

  22. #22
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    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    If Presta you need special Presta valves with removable cores and then you can loosen and tighten them them with needle nose pliers and by hand. If Schrader, you need a special tool made for removing the core, available at auto parts stores.
    Appreciate it. That's what I needed to know.

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