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  1. #76
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    If we are going to go the SAE direction lets call it 28" which is about the size of the tires most will actually ride in a year or 2 when the product in development now hits. Trying to squeeze middy sized wheels in frames not designed for them will drop off dramatically and the tire makers will have pulled their heads and opened some molds, the sun will come out and the birds will sing the dark age of being forced to choose from only 2 sizes will have passed, hooraah. When comparing OD's, we should also be looking at the same tire cross section for each rim size and when that is taken into consideration a 2.35 Schwalbe is 713mm or so, depending on air pressure, humidity in the air, which day it was made blah blah blah. That number happens to be what the fork makers are figuring for mud and safety clearance as well, so I expect a plethora of choices in this diameter by the end of 2012. When the middle wheel size hits everyone smack in the forehead, my guess is that a vast majority will not be buying 2,1.s but 2.3/5s and therefore the OD will measure 28" OD. Why cant we give it a name instead of a number though? 26 as almost everyone in the last 20 years rides, does not measure 26, and as soon as the tire makers made more and more 29r tires the OD jumped, so lets come up with some new names?! Instead of Small for 20s we could call them Slash for their superior edge to edge handling.
    M for 26" as they are certainly still the Most common or al'most the right size. L for 28s, as in ? the Logical choice for mtb? I don't think the twenty niner riders will mind known as those turning XLs. Just a thought.

    DT
    Mr. Turner: I'll believe you when I see a Sultan 28". What wheels and tires would you spec to get there?
    Last edited by dwt; 05-24-2012 at 10:21 AM.
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  2. #77
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    Well, since he mentioned 2.35 Schwalbe's, that would be a pretty good guess

  3. #78
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    If we are going to go the SAE direction lets call it 28" which is about the size of the tires most will actually ride in a year or 2 when the product in development now hits. Trying to squeeze middy sized wheels in frames not designed for them will drop off dramatically and the tire makers will have pulled their heads and opened some molds, the sun will come out and the birds will sing the dark age of being forced to choose from only 2 sizes will have passed, hooraah. When comparing OD's, we should also be looking at the same tire cross section for each rim size and when that is taken into consideration a 2.35 Schwalbe is 713mm or so, depending on air pressure, humidity in the air, which day it was made blah blah blah. That number happens to be what the fork makers are figuring for mud and safety clearance as well, so I expect a plethora of choices in this diameter by the end of 2012. When the middle wheel size hits everyone smack in the forehead, my guess is that a vast majority will not be buying 2,1.s but 2.3/5s and therefore the OD will measure 28" OD. Why cant we give it a name instead of a number though? 26 as almost everyone in the last 20 years rides, does not measure 26, and as soon as the tire makers made more and more 29r tires the OD jumped, so lets come up with some new names?! Instead of Small for 20s we could call them Slash for their superior edge to edge handling.
    M for 26" as they are certainly still the Most common or al'most the right size. L for 28s, as in ? the Logical choice for mtb? I don't think the twenty niner riders will mind known as those turning XLs. Just a thought.

    DT
    I could live with 28 or "L". Ironically, I think that's what Wes Williams was shooting for (28") when he started building mountain bikes with 700c rims.

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  4. #79
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    This thread banter has become an interesting 650b vs 27.5 discussion. And entertaining !

    Really loved the rounding wrong and then arguing your point. Spot on from mobaar.

    and by far the best from jimboho :
    "Don't make me PM DC, I'll sick him on you B-otches"

    FWIW - Stick with the 650b. And forget the comparison to those 29er wagon wheels !

  5. #80
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    Please no 28". For the same reason as no 27". It already exists. Still a lot of Euro's (Germans?) calling 700c 28", and then the Belgian's calling 635 BSD 28" too. We definitely don't need a 3rd 28" label.

  6. #81
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfruits View Post
    the bmx guys would be pissed if they had to buy kids tires!
    Is it a bad thing?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Mr. Turner: i'll beieve you when I see a Sultan 28". What where's and tires would you spec to get there?
    Kirk Pacenti's 650b Mega-moto tires are 28", currently in prototype testing now.

    Yes with 28" maxi volume 650b tires, frame designers could continue to offer 2 frame types. Tweaked slightly if any, one long chain-stay frame type for fitting both 650b wheels and 28"max size tires or common 29'er wheels and tires, and another compact frame type for fitting both current 26" wheels and tires and smaller volume 650b wheels and tires, already well proven for 5 years now to work excellently in the same "26" inch frames converted to 650b. More choices for more riding conditions.

    IMO, Kirk Pacenti nailed the Tail/AM rim and tire size combo for 650b (23"/584mm) rims right out of the box in 2007 for use in some compact nimble handling "26" inch frames with his pioneering 650b mountain bike tire, the 2.3 Neo-moto. Not heavy, very durable, easy rolling, and high grip predictable handling. Works great from Moab and Arizona's rocks, Oregon rain forest loam, to SoCal's packed sandy dirt.

  8. #83
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobaar View Post
    Please no 28". For the same reason as no 27". It already exists. Still a lot of Euro's (Germans?) calling 700c 28", and then the Belgian's calling 635 BSD 28" too. We definitely don't need a 3rd 28" label.
    Correct. Which is another reason to stck with SAE when measuring wheel size and not bringing ISO in at all. This is not an argument against metric. It's just avoid confusion. I have no problem describing my bike as having 27.5" wheels, 140mm of travel, and weighing 29 lbs. I do have problem with the argument that my wheels slightly less or slightly more than halfway between the other two wheel sizes. A logical and fact based Argument ccan be made that ether are exactly halfway between.


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  9. #84
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    OH, for Christsakes...

    I just read the latest MBA FS wheels size ad, I mean shootout between KHS bikes and they have started referring to it as (cringe) "Killer B".

    For the love of God, was "Black Diamond bikes" not bad enough?

    Can we accept the metric system?


    Why do I keep reading this rag?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie View Post
    MBA


    Why do I keep reading this rag?
    Good question
    Better to have and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

  11. #86
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie View Post
    I just read the latest MBA FS wheels size ad, I mean shootout between KHS bikes and they have started referring to it as (cringe) "Killer B".

    For the love of God, was "Black Diamond bikes" not bad enough?

    Can we accept the metric system?


    Why do I keep reading this rag?
    No idea. I accept imperial measures for things where it is well established - frame sizing for example. But quoting component weight in ounces is borderline asinine. Nobody weights their tires in ounces.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by thad View Post
    My suggestion would be to call it by the actual rim size, rounded to cm.
    56cm =26", 58cm = 650b , 62cm = 29"

    26 and 29 are totally arbitrary numbers. I just measured my bikes
    26X 2.35 larsen TT = 26.5"
    26X 2.5 minion dhf = 27"
    29X 2.2 ikon = 29.5"
    29X 2.4 ardent = 29.75"
    Then the actual rim sizes are 22", 23", and 24.5" rounded to the nearest half inch.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Wizard View Post
    I'm wondering what year in the distant (or not so distant) future the 650a (590 BSD) movement will happen.

    Kirk Pacenti mentioned he considered going the 650a route, but ultimately went with 650b for various reasons.
    I'm thinking he went with 650b because 650a sounds too Canadian.

    How about we use a secret lingo code name for 650b, named after the county that uses area code 650, which is San Mateo County, which also happens to be where Tom Ritchey resides, which also happens to be where Ritchey built 650b mountain bikes in the late 70s or early 80s, before the Russian army bought up the Hakka tire supply. And now, Ritchey is working on his own 650b tires and wheels, so things are coming full-circle..... just like a wheel.

    So, how 'bout we start calling them San Mateos?

    Or how about b'ers (pronounced beers)?

    Also, 2013 will be a rather banner year for 650b, and if you squish the 1 and the 3 close together, it looks like a B? So, there's been twenty-sixers, twenty-niners, and now twenty-B'ers (20B / 2013). Twenty beers? That's a lot of beers, eh? That reminds me of the time that I found a mouse in a bottle of beer, eh?
    So, maybe they could also be referred to as 20B. Or 65013.

    Oh, and here's the Canadian skit from Family Guy, eh?
    Family Guy - AA eh High Quality HD - YouTube

    Bonus Strange Brew video:
    Strange Brew - mouse in a bottle - YouTube
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    That's funny shyt right there.
    Zip ties? Not on my bike!

    Want:
    650B rims or wheel set. 80's vintage 32 or 36 x 135mm

  14. #89
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    How about Tweener? Fits right in there.
    Zip ties? Not on my bike!

    Want:
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  15. #90
    dwt
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    This exchange nails it AFAIC:


    Q.: Mountain Bike Mag:

    The term “650b” is an established standard going back decades, and 27.5-inch, while descriptive and fitting within the 26-inch and 29er naming convention, is sort of a made-up standard. Which one do you think the industry should adopt?

    A:Scott Sports marketing director Adrian Montgomery:

    In this crazy mix up of standards I think we should look ahead to the potential buyers and the retail conversation and continue with the same units of measurement for the entire MTB category. Inches. Period. 26, 27.5, 29—these are all the same unit of measure. Don’t start skipping back and forth between European units that are comfortable in road bikes. This would create a larger problem like convincing the U.S. to adopt the metric system. I’m kidding…but seriously.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    .. or, better yet, just call'em Medium.
    I'll go with that.

  17. #92
    dwt
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Addict View Post
    I'll go with that.
    This Forum "owns" the brand. let's vote on the nominations and let the bike industry know. In deference to American Intense and Euro Scott, I nominate "twenty seven fifty" or "twoseven point five" or even "twoseven dot five. If Scott agrees to steer clear ofroadie ISO, who are a bunch of Yanks to argue for Sixfiddy?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    This Forum "owns" the brand. let's vote on the nominations and let the bike industry know. In deference to American Intense and Euro Scott, I nominate "twenty seven fifty" or "twoseven point five" or even "twoseven dot five. If Scott agrees to steer clear ofroadie ISO, who are a bunch of Yanks to argue for Sixfiddy?
    To be honest, I do expect that 26" wheels will go the way of 1" headsets. 650b fits long travel frames and small full suspension frames with much less troubles than 29r, and even 29rs can be made to work there. And they should be stiff enough for DH. Well, I guess the double ply 3lb+ tires, direct mount stem bikes will still want 26" (or 24" rear).

    But it does seem to me that 27.5 naming is inevitable for MTB tires. Too bad, should have reserved that to 650a.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    But it does seem to me that 27.5 naming is inevitable for MTB tires.
    Please someone tell Schwalbe that naming theirs 27 1/2" is creative but it makes them harder to find using search at retailers' sites.

  20. #95
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    Please someone tell Schwalbe that naming theirs 27 1/2" is creative but it makes them harder to find using search at retailers' sites.
    Well, if we follow SAE style, 27 1/2" is appropriate, is not it?

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Well, if we follow SAE style, 27 1/2" is appropriate, is not it?
    I do not care about styles that much.

  22. #97
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    How about 27ish

  23. #98
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    I do not care about styles that much.
    It is all about style, man. All about style. And ease.

    Steeze, if you may.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie View Post
    and they have started referring to it as (cringe) "Killer B".
    In the made-for-TV movie about mountain bike wheels, DC will be played by Nicolas Cage. This video showcases what some, most, or all of DC's scenes will sound like:

    Not the Bees - YouTube

    As it has been mentioned before, it's a lot easier to do a search for 650b than it is to look for 27.5" or 28" tires or wheels, without having to enter 27.5" mountain bike wheels or 27.5" mountain bike tires (or 28" mountain bike tires or wheels, for that matter) in the Google search bar, or whatever site you're searching through. Designating it 650b is like having a Fastpass at Disneyland when it comes to searching for content on the internet.
    Calling the format 27.5" or 28" inch doesn't make a whole lot of sense, considering different tire widths will yield different diameters.
    Sometimes they're 27.5", sometimes they're 28", sometimes they're somewhere in between, and sometimes perhaps a bit more than 28".

    As far as the comments and complaints about the BSD not being in the middle, exactly between 559 and 622, I think Kirk chose well by going with what it is. Bigger tires will yield bigger diameters, and in my opinion, it's better to err on the slightly smaller side, otherwise you'd be getting just too close to the size of 29ers if 590 BSD is coupled with big tires. 29ers have their place for certain applications. Going with 584 BSD was smart.

    If tire manufacturers want to also include an approximate diameter of the inflated tire on an average width rim, which could be embossed or printed on the tire next to the width of the tire, that could be an option. Using a ~ sign next to the diameter might be useful in case it's not exact and people start complaining. If we go the 27.5" or 28" inch route, people will complain (or have to explain) that it's actually 28", or it's actually 27.5", or whatever may be the case.
    650b is a good name designation for the general wheel/rim size. If people want to call it 27.5" or 28", then that's probably because those people will primarily be using either 27.5" or 28" diameter tires, but not both. The recent tire poll showed that there will be a wide variety of tire widths being used. 650b covers the entire spectrum. The cross country folks shouldn't have to explain to others "they're called 28" wheels, but they're really 27.5" ", and the folks with the bigger/wider tires shouldn't have to explain to others "they're called 27.5" wheels, but they actually measure 28". "

    If people are worried about educating folks who walk into bike shops, it's fairly easy to tell them that the bigger tires will be about 28", and the smaller tires will be about 27.5". And no, I don't think we should average it out by calling them 27.75"ers.

    Plus, 650b has a nice exotic and scientific look to it. Very refined.
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  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    It is all about style, man. All about style. And ease.

    Steeze, if you may.
    Yep. We need a simple brand that does not require you to remember if .5" is to be typed as .5 or 1/2 and if you need to add inches or " or what. We do not have to be following established standards, heck 650b is about breaking stereotypes, is not it. I want one brand that when searched for, yields all products related to this wheel size available - frames, forks, tires, rims, inner tubes, (, stems ), stickers, MTB magazines.

    I still like 650b the best. Add a hash mark to represent MTB tracks in mud and to make it hip and we are done!

    #650b FTW!

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