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  1. #51
    Axe
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    27.5 should be left for 650a. Now that we have 650b forks and frames, we can hand sew and fit 650a tires in them.

    Just the last step to the perfect optimum.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shocker View Post
    Or for the coffee addicts like myself, Tall, Grande & Venti.
    "Coffee addict" and Starbucks nomenclature do not mesh.

  3. #53
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    27.5 should be left for 650a. Now that we have 650b forks and frames, we can hand sew and fit 650a tires in them.

    Just the last step to the perfect optimum.
    GREAT IDEA. Make it even MORE complicated and confusing.

    I'm, a 'Merican. Don't speak no metric. Don't need no fancy talking bike eleitist tellin' me bout no ISO, bsd, and other useless crap. Gimme an SAE Tape measure, same as the 26'ers and 29'ers use.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    "Coffee addict" and Starbucks nomenclature do not mesh.
    Ouch.
    Billy

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    ... Shredtopia!

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Giggity View Post
    650b is really old, something like 50-60 years. It was use in Europe for touring bikes so the the size comes from the rim diameter plus a larger touring tire. The rim size made a bit of a comeback in the late 80s/early 90s in the form of custom road bikes for small riders, women in particular. I don't know the exact dates but you get the general idea.
    DJ, are you sure about the comeback of 650B in the 80's/90's? The venue you're describing there strikes me as the 650C size that was really popular during that time frame for triathalon and small framed roadbikes. Trek even made some models with 650C wheels in their smaller framed roadbikes up to 2000 or thereabouts. Not that this is important, but it's an interesting trivia issue.

  6. #56
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    Yeah, Terry, Trek, Cannondale, TT bikes, Spec'd... 650c wheels were popular back in the 1990s on the road, not 650b.

    mk

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC View Post
    DJ, are you sure about the comeback of 650B in the 80's/90's? The venue you're describing there strikes me as the 650C size that was really popular during that time frame for triathalon and small framed roadbikes. Trek even made some models with 650C wheels in their smaller framed roadbikes up to 2000 or thereabouts. Not that this is important, but it's an interesting trivia issue.
    I thought they were but it sounds like I was wrong on that. It's not the first time.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
    - Albert Einstein

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    27.5 should be left for 650a. Now that we have 650b forks and frames, we can hand sew and fit 650a tires in them.

    Just the last step to the perfect optimum.
    I've been looking into the distant (or not-so-distant) future, and I'm planning a preemptive strike on the 650a movement. My wheel size will split the difference between 650b (584 BSD) and 650a (590 BSD) and be right at 587 BSD. A happy medium between the two.
    As for what letter I'll use to designate the size.....

    650d might be confusing and dangerous for dyslexics who might try mounting 650d tires onto 650b wheels, or vise versa.
    650e sounds too much like 650.
    650f sounds like a failing school grade, and would be the brunt of trolls' jokes.
    650g sounds too much like a monetary amount or a weight in grams, which could be confusing to people when they see the same thing on both wide and narrow tires.
    650h might look like 650b if there's a bit of mud on the tire.
    650i looks and sounds too much like a BMW. Oh wait.... that's because it is a BMW.
    650j looks too much like 650i.
    650k, again, sounds too much like a monetary amount.
    650l looks too much like six thousand, five hundred and one.
    650m looks and sounds right. The m will stand for medium, even though most people will presume it stands for mighty or magnificent. I might just make it a capital M.
    Okay, so that's it...... 650m, or 650M, with a 587 BSD.

    One of the nice things about my new wheel size is it will be compatible with practically all 650b and 650a frames and forks.
    To ride this trail is completely free.
    Just show me a triangle..... make it three!

  9. #59
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    calling them 27.5 might bring sales up as new buyers will think "medium. cool. ill get that" which would then get companys to dump more money into it and more 27.5er frames will be made!

    sorry if something similar has been mentioned. didnt have time to read the thread.

  10. #60
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    Steve F,

    Thanks for the link to Sheldon Brown's tire sizing chart, i should have known to look there!

    I didn't expect a good answer to my thread, i am simply trying to make this new wheel size easier to understand, and sell because i think it is an excellent option for most riders out there.

    Krispy
    Currently enjoying life Giant Trance Advanced 27.5/Rockshox Pike/Sram XX1
    Giant STP

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Why confuse the public? It is MUCH simpler and NOT inaccurate to to market the wheel as exactly halfway between 26" and 29", comparing apples to apples: OD measured in inches with tire mounted and inflated.
    My MAIN point, (do ALL CAPS help you understand better?) is that 650b is not exactly halfway between 26" and 29". It is closer to 26" than it is to 29".

    26x 2.3 larsen TT = 26.5"
    650bx 2.1 neomoto = 27.5"
    29x 2.2 ikon = 29.5"

    650b is 1" larger than 26". 29" is 2" larger than 650b. 650b is not exactly in the middle, it's much closer to 26".

    559mm = 56cm
    584mm = 58cm +2cm
    622mm= 62cm +4cm

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Totally don't get that or agree. For over 20 years, the industry has dubbed the "regular" wheel size as 26" which is the outside diameter of the wheel with tire mounted and inflated measured in inches. Same with 29" for over 10 years. Nobody gave or gives a damn that certain tires make the wheels slightly taller or slighly shorter than the demonination.

    Now we have the in bewtween size, and people arguing that by using IDO/bsd metric measurements ( which NOBODY f'ing gets and which compares imperial apples to metric ISO oranges) the new wheel is closer to 26" than 29".
    I going to use those BSD numbers again to try to explain why 26" and 29" are confusing, as well.
    26" rim has bsd 559mm = 22.0" Wheels are 26" with a tire that is 2.0" from bead to tread.
    650b bsd 584mm = 23.0" Wheels are 27.5 with a tire that is 2.25"
    29" bsd 622mm = 24.5" Wheels are 29" with a tire that is 2.25"

    Maybe we should just change 26" to 26.5" to make it understandable. No, it make A LOT more sense to leave the traditional 26", 650b, 29" labels, but supplement them with the BSD. How does informing the customer on the ACTUAL diameter of their rims confuse them? This approach has been taken elsewhere in the industry. Initially supplementing the old school, confusing, but accepted terms, with new ones that are more descriptive. When was the last time you saw suspension travel or bar width measured in imperial? Top tube and eff top tube lengths are slowly making way for the more descriptive and accurate front center.

    How do car and motorcycles measure their wheels and tires? They state the actual rim size. And then the size of the tire. I don't think this would be such a hard transition...

    Here's what Sheldon Brown had to say on the subject:
    "As if bicycle tire sizing wasn't already confusing enough, wrong-headed marketeers have recently tried to popularize a fourth designation for the 584 mm tire size!

    They are trying to get people to call it "27 five." I strongly urge readers to resist this foolish jargon, and to use either the traditional "650B" designation, or, better yet, the internationally-standardized "584 mm" designation."
    650B (584 mm) Conversions for Road Bikes

  12. #62
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by thad View Post
    My MAIN point, (do ALL CAPS help you understand better?) is that 650b is not exactly halfway between 26" and 29". It is closer to 26" than it is to 29".
    It is APPROXIMATELY half-way.

    That is GOOD ENOUGH.

    P.S. I think it should be called 584bs. But - in my garage I have 12", 14", 16", 20", 24", 26", 29" wheels. Inch based naming convention is kind of stuck. It ain't no road bike.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    It is APPROXIMATELY half-way.
    No, it is approximately a third of the way.....

    That is GOOD ENOUGH.

  14. #64
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by thad View Post
    No, it is approximately a third of the way.....

    That is GOOD ENOUGH.
    No, it is approximately half way. It is IN BETWEEN.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    No, it is approximately half way. It is IN BETWEEN.
    The difference between 29 and 26 is 622mm - 559mm = 63mm.

    1/3 larger is 21mm.
    1/2 larger is 31.5mm

    650b is 25mm bigger than 26". Is that closer to a third or a half?

    If you insist on being all vague about it: 650b is a little bit bigger than 26". 29" is quite a bit bigger than 650b.

  16. #66
    dwt
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    27.5 is exactly in the middle AFAIC. . Which is why an Intense Tracer 275 could be my next bike. Because Intense is pretty much alone in adopting the SAE number. But before any of the engineers here jump ugly on them, they hedge a little by saying: "kinda in between maybe the best of both."
    That "kinda" gives them wiggle room if the ISO Inquisitors bring out the thumbscrews.

    650b Engage
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC View Post
    DJ, are you sure about the comeback of 650B in the 80's/90's? The venue you're describing there strikes me as the 650C size that was really popular during that time frame for triathalon and small framed roadbikes. Trek even made some models with 650C wheels in their smaller framed roadbikes up to 2000 or thereabouts. Not that this is important, but it's an interesting trivia issue.

    IIRC, Raleigh and somebody else used 650b on a few mtn bike models in the early to mid 80s. Didn't really take off so they dropped the size. That was after Tom Ritchey experimented with the size.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  18. #68
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by thad View Post
    650b is 25mm bigger than 26". Is that closer to a third or a half?

    If you insist on being all vague about it: 650b is a little bit bigger than 26". 29" is quite a bit bigger than 650b.
    It is even closer to 13/32.

    It is you who is being vague. 4.5% and 6.5% are NOT a "little bit" and a "quite a bit". That is silly to state it that way.

  19. #69
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    I bought a "Beasley" and really having a blast on it! I think the B will be a cool and endless play on words for years to come. (or-not). Like say a Specialized B-four, 4"travel. Kona Yawanabe. Cannondale behave. Santa Cruz b-groovy. Stupid but my point made. 27.5 suks bong water.

    Don't make me PM DC, I'll sick him on you B-otches.

  20. #70
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    I bet the people that decided to name it 650b are laughing at the guys arguing back and forth about the exact mathematical size of the wheel in this thread.

  21. #71
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Addict View Post
    I bet the people that decided to name it 650b are laughing at the guys arguing back and forth about the exact mathematical size of the wheel in this thread.
    Those people are probably long dead.

    There is ISO 5775 standard. It should be named 584.


    Quote Originally Posted by ISO 5775
    The standard diameters of straight-side and crochet-type rims are:

    194, 203, 222, 239, 248, 251, 279, 288, 298, 305, 317, 330, 337, 340, 349, 355, 357, 369, 381, 387, 390, 400, 406, 419, 428, 432, 438, 440, 451, 484, 489, 490, 498, 501, 507, 520, 531, 534, 540, 541, 547, 559, 565, 571, 584, 590, 597, 609, 622, 630, 635, 642

  22. #72
    Axe
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    .. or, better yet, just call'em Medium.

    (Kids S-M-L are 16- 20-24). Adult S-M-L - 26 - 650b - 29.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    .. or, better yet, just call'em Medium.

    (Kids S-M-L are 16- 20-24). Adult S-M-L - 26 - 650b - 29.
    the bmx guys would be pissed if they had to buy kids tires!

  24. #74
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    28

    If we are going to go the SAE direction lets call it 28" which is about the size of the tires most will actually ride in a year or 2 when the product in development now hits. Trying to squeeze middy sized wheels in frames not designed for them will drop off dramatically and the tire makers will have pulled their heads and opened some molds, the sun will come out and the birds will sing the dark age of being forced to choose from only 2 sizes will have passed, hooraah. When comparing OD's, we should also be looking at the same tire cross section for each rim size and when that is taken into consideration a 2.35 Schwalbe is 713mm or so, depending on air pressure, humidity in the air, which day it was made blah blah blah. That number happens to be what the fork makers are figuring for mud and safety clearance as well, so I expect a plethora of choices in this diameter by the end of 2012. When the middle wheel size hits everyone smack in the forehead, my guess is that a vast majority will not be buying 2,1.s but 2.3/5s and therefore the OD will measure 28" OD. Why cant we give it a name instead of a number though? 26 as almost everyone in the last 20 years rides, does not measure 26, and as soon as the tire makers made more and more 29r tires the OD jumped, so lets come up with some new names?! Instead of Small for 20s we could call them Slash for their superior edge to edge handling.
    M for 26" as they are certainly still the Most common or al'most the right size. L for 28s, as in ? the Logical choice for mtb? I don't think the twenty niner riders will mind known as those turning XLs. Just a thought.

    DT

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by thad View Post
    650b is 1" larger than 26". 29" is 2" larger than 650b. 650b is not exactly in the middle, it's much closer to 26".

    559mm = 56cm
    584mm = 58cm +2cm
    622mm= 62cm +4cm
    This might be the best post yet. Intentionally rounding wrong to try and make your point.

    559 to 584 = 2.5cm (if you insist on even cm, then its 3, not 2)
    584 to 622 = 3.8cm

    So you're trying to make a 1.3cm (3.8 vs 2.5) difference into a 2cm (4 vs 2) difference with bad math. Good job.

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