Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    71

    To b or not to b?

    Hello everyone. I'm getting ready to purchase another bike and am a little unsure of what to buy. I love the way 26er's handle and the playfulness of them. I do own a 29er hardtail but that's another story. For a f/s trailbike I just wanna have fun. I am interested in a 27.5, but I don't wanna lose any of the fun factor. I know it will roll better and thats great, but will it be sluggish to the point where I'll lose any of the playfulness? Any suggestions?

  2. #2
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820

    To b or not to b?

    Norco Sight Killer B

    Turner Burner

    Jamis Dakar 650b


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  3. #3
    74 & 29 pilot
    Reputation: MTB Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,010
    Quote Originally Posted by rayzer View Post
    Hello everyone. I'm getting ready to purchase another bike and am a little unsure of what to buy. I love the way 26er's handle and the playfulness of them. I do own a 29er hardtail but that's another story. For a f/s trailbike I just wanna have fun. I am interested in a 27.5, but I don't wanna lose any of the fun factor. I know it will roll better and thats great, but will it be sluggish to the point where I'll lose any of the playfulness? Any suggestions?
    You won't lose any fun factor at all. Been riding 26" for 18 years and didn't like the 29ers because of that reason. I don't notice any less playfulness or agility in two bikes now, Firebird and Carbine, but in the Desert SW terrain the roll over advantage is huge.

    If you live in the Midwest and ride groomed trails all the time, you may not see the advantage.
    MTBP
    "GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!"
    Turn on the truth: http://www.ronpaulchannel.com/

  4. #4
    Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
    Reputation: PHeller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    723
    If you want to have fun and you already have a 29er, please avoid a bike like the Jamis Dakar. It's a very run-of-the-mill XC platform. Steep head angle, long stays, relatively shorter travel.

    I'd probably suggest something a bit bigger. Turner Burner, Norco Range, Banshee Rune, etc. Something big travel and slack, but can still pedal uphill.

    At the very least you could sell a bigger bike quicker than an XC bike.
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    8
    Here's mine. Hands down the BEST mountain bike I have ever owned.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails To b or not to b?-img_20130307_212857_907.jpg  


  6. #6
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820

    To b or not to b?

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleTrackSal View Post
    Having said that, the size btwn 26 and 650b is so close I can honestly say that 650b doesn't really roll over obstacles much better than 26, and back to back I can feel the 650b be slower through twisty trails...less flickable too.
    You do realise that this makes no sense? How can the wheels be so close that 650b does NOT have better rollover than 26, but IS slower and less flickable? That's a logical contradiction.

    In truth, 650b wheels are bigger than 26" (how much bigger is an old and tired debate) and therefore by definition have a larger angle of approach and better rollover. The penalties for bigger are heavier, less stiff and less flickable. The differences between 26" and 27.5" are far less dramatic than 29", but exist in fact.

    To b or not to b?-imageuploadedbytapatalk1363007284.819201.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: reformed roadie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    1,426
    Part of the problem WAS that none of the available tires were very big, so it was easy to fine a tall 26" tire that was close to the diameter of a Neo moto, or a XC Fire.

    Now that there are some meaty treads available, we can compare apples to apples...

  8. #8
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820

    To b or not to b?

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleTrackSal View Post
    [ contradiction.



    Please note that I said that rollover wasn't THAT much better than with a 26'er. Forgive me, it was late, I was tired, and lucidity was fleeting.

    Please put paper comparisons aside. My point being that I've had more stick time on the tweener wheel size than most folks this side of Kirk P. and I, personally, don't find it to matter...

    To/for the O.P., if you can, get some trail time on a b bike and make your decision from "your butt", and not what's on paper. I'm not a hater I just don't think the wheel size offers enough 29er-like riding qualities to justify its existence.

    Sal
    I don't want to get into a pissing contest, but you DO realize you are posting in the 650b forum, eh?

    The points you bring up have been debated to death in a few bazillion threads over the past 2 years in this forum as well as the 29'er forum. Do some searching.

    Your argument has been made so
    many times with 29'er cool aid fervor and zeal by the (in)famous David Copperfield, that the regulars here, who ride and own tweeners, are totally sick of it. We do NOT need much less want another 29'er troll in this forum.

    Saying the wheel doesn't roll better than 26", but still handles worse, and that it can't justify its existence because it is not a 29'er, are clear trolls.

    Leave it at this. Everyone has their own opinion and feel for the bike(s) they like and the terrain they prefer. They now can pick between small, medium and large wheels. The smaller the wheel, the lighter and stiffer, the more nimble the bike, and the poorer the rollover angle. The larger the wheel, the heavier and flexier, the less nimble the bike, and the better the rollover angle.

    Then there are different brands, different geometries, larger and smaller amounts of suspension, etc. which can change everything.

    Fortunately there are many great choices out there waiting to be tested by each rider to be chosen according to personal taste.

    27.5" is still under represented in the market(no Spesh, Trek, Giant, Santa Cruz or Cannondale) but there are enough great bikes now, with many others expected shortly.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  9. #9
    NedwannaB
    Reputation: JMac47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    8,503
    Don't take dwt too serious, he may be one of Copperfields alterego's trying to figure this 650b wheel size out. Although with better typing skilz....
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  10. #10
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820

    To b or not to b?

    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Don't take dwt too serious, he may be one of Copperfields alterego's trying to figure this 650b wheel size out. Although with better typing skilz....
    To b or not to b?-imageuploadedbytapatalk1363036980.626104.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  11. #11
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820

    To b or not to b?

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleTrackSal View Post
    Thanks JMac. Thankfully, I have no clue about the "Copperfields" reference...

    Happy Trails
    Lucky you. David Copperfield is one of the, if not THE, most reviled troll on mtbr, famous for draining the 29'er cool aid barrel, having sex with his 29'ers, and taking dumps on the 650b wheel, Kirk Pacenti, and anybody who ever posted anything good about the middle sized wheel. For a while he was neg repping people for simply posting anything pro 650b. I know because I was one.

    The point about him is that there are innumerable threads over the past few years in this forum as well as the 29'er forum on the pros and cons of a middle sized wheel. It has been argued and discussed to death. There is nothing new to add. What you have posted is old news. Mr. Copperfield and his ilk have covered it.

    Suffice it to say the regulars here own and ride bikes with that wheel size, and don't need to reinvent it - so to speak - again.

    Name:  ImageUploadedByTapatalk1363052645.486419.jpg
Views: 372
Size:  13.8 KB

    Capiche?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  12. #12
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820

    To b or not to b?

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleTrackSal View Post
    Jesus man, have fun living in that closed-minded world of yours there! Seriously, I pity you. And please don't use "Capiche" unless you are of the lineage.

    A person brings his relevant, real-world experience to bear on a direct question asked on this thread and you dump all over it and call me a Copperfield?

    Don't worry, you needn't fear me sullying your theoretical world of mountain biking here...
    Good grief. Who's having a fit now? Put down Red Bull and have a brew maybe.

    You made a mindless post in the forum dedicated to 650b/27.5" wheels that, in your vast, real-world experience you found that the wheel simultaneously didn't roll much better than 26" and handled worse, to boot. AND that since it wasn't a 29'er it has no justification to exist.

    1). That is old crap that has been beaten to death. Generally people are advised to read through past threads in forums before pressing send and making idiots of themselves by reviving old and tired arguments.

    2) a troll is a statement having no intrinsic value, made with the intent of provoking emotional responses by others in the forum. You dissed the wheel bluntly and completely, which was no help to the OP and was throwing red meat to the locals.

    I took the bait like a dumbass

    You win. Are you happy now?





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: obfsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    1). That is old crap that has been beaten to death. Generally people are advised to read through past threads in forums before pressing send and making idiots of themselves by reviving old and tired arguments.

    2) a troll is a statement having no intrinsic value, made with the intent of provoking emotional responses by others in the forum. You dissed the wheel bluntly and completely, which was no help to the OP and was throwing red meat to the locals.
    Yeah kSal, jeesh. The first two rules of sound reasoning are that arguments lose validity with age and that their capacity to bear truth depends entirely on the identity of the speaker.

    Respek.

  14. #14
    NedwannaB
    Reputation: JMac47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    8,503
    Quote Originally Posted by obfsk8r View Post
    Yeah kSal, jeesh. The first two rules of sound reasoning are that arguments lose validity with age and that their capacity to bear truth depends entirely on the identity of the speaker.

    Respek.
    You and dwt might want to take a refresher course on reading comprehension and learn to play a little nicer....

    As far as I could tell, STSal was just providing an unbiased non-threatening 'opinion' on the OP's initial question based on obviously having ridden all three of the current wheel radii offerings, which was asking for comments as to whether or not the 'B' thing would be good for him/her. If the initial post had started out with wording such as "just tell me that going 650B is the right thing to do" then I could understand that any "biased" negative comments made about any other wheel size but our new(er) Goldie Locks wheel size.

    And with keeping with that thought, why is it that there's been no comment chimmed in yet by the OP, yet it has come off sooooo offensive to you guys?
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Don't take dwt too serious, he may be one of Copperfields alterego's trying to figure this 650b wheel size out. Although with better typing skilz....
    +1

    dwt you need to chill my friend. This isn't the first time you've had a knee-jerk reaction to a post. Sal wasn't being a troll. The OP asked for opinions and he gave his -- in a rather nice, unconfrontational way IMO. Just because his opinion doesn't agree with yours does not make him a troll.

  16. #16
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820

    To b or not to b?

    Quote Originally Posted by KCOgar View Post
    +1

    dwt you need to chill my friend. This isn't the first time you've had a knee-jerk reaction to a post. Sal wasn't being a troll. The OP asked for opinions and he gave his -- in a rather nice, unconfrontational way IMO. Just because his opinion doesn't agree with yours does not make him a troll.
    Your last sentence is completely correct.

    But Sal DID say that 27.5" does not roll better than 26" (false) while at the same time being less nimble than 26" (true). You can't have it both ways on planet earth.

    He also said: "I just don't think the wheel size offers enough 29er-like riding qualities to justify its existence"

    OP will have to decide whether these statements are helpful. They sound suspiciously trollish to me in this forum (though fine in the 29'er forum), especially the second, or just stupid.

    Sorry, that's what I think. Why do I give a crap? Because people coming to mtbr for advice should get good advice from people who have half a clue what they are talking about. Being misled intentionally or naively is not what the forums are all about.

    Maybe I don't pass the test, I can deal with it. But Sal does not either.

    Meanwhile, back to tuning bikes for spring just around the corner. Wish I could just ride, but it's raining on top of snow covered trails.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  17. #17
    NedwannaB
    Reputation: JMac47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    8,503

    Pure jibberish

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Your last sentence is completely correct.

    But Sal DID say that 27.5" does not roll better than 26" (false) while at the same time being less nimble than 26" (true). You can't have it both ways on planet earth.

    He also said: "I just don't think the wheel size offers enough 29er-like riding qualities to justify its existence"

    OP will have to decide whether these statements are helpful. They sound suspiciously trollish to me in this forum (though fine in the 29'er forum), especially the second, or just stupid.

    Sorry, that's what I think. Why do I give a crap? Because people coming to mtbr for advice should get good advice from people who have half a clue what they are talking about. Being misled intentionally or naively is not what the forums are all about.

    Maybe I don't pass the test, I can deal with it. But Sal does not either.

    Meanwhile, back to tuning bikes for spring just around the corner. Wish I could just ride, but it's raining on top of snow covered trails.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Did you not see the sentence about STSal being on the 650's for 4.5 seasons? Or that he hasn't been on a niner for several years? How that becomes "29r Trollish" by you comes off pretty lame. Knee jerk to say the least....
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  18. #18
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,956
    I've had similar experiences (keep in mind I'm quite tall and my trails here are 29" heaven) to Sal - when I ride 650b bikes, they just basically feel like 26" to me. YMMV, of course. There are definitely benefits to larger wheels for almost anyone, but I wouldn't rush out to buy the latest 650b offering if you've got a 26 or 29" wheel setup that you like.

    Heck, I build and get to test ride a TON of bikes. You would be shocked what you can't detect in terms of bike setup by riding - a full degree of head tube angle, for example, is actually below the threshold of detectability for many people. 10-15mm of wheel radius is not going to be noticeable to some riders unless they're expecting to feel a difference - but that's not to say it's not worthwhile.


    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  19. #19
    ~~~~~~~~
    Reputation: airwreck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,761
    Quote Originally Posted by rayzer View Post
    Hello everyone. I'm getting ready to purchase another bike and am a little unsure of what to buy. I love the way 26er's handle and the playfulness of them. I do own a 29er hardtail but that's another story. For a f/s trailbike I just wanna have fun. I am interested in a 27.5, but I don't wanna lose any of the fun factor. I know it will roll better and thats great, but will it be sluggish to the point where I'll lose any of the playfulness? Any suggestions?
    I've started riding a 27.5 and had your same concerns. Never been on a 29er, and my riding is all about fun and playing (airtime! techy, etc.). I own 6", 7" and 8" 26ers and haven't bought a new bike since 08. Decided to give the 27.5 a try, first ride was different for sure but after a few I'm loving it. Faster, I like going faster with less effort, and feeling better every ride about jumping with it. Haven't yet tabled it, but doing tabletops on my 6" bike is easier than my 7" and DH bike anyway so I'm used to that. Tight slow techy has been no big deal. I say no loss in playfulness and I'd even call it an increase because I'm carrying more speed. It's really made xc type riding tons more fun for me.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    812
    650b is absolutely great, maybe. It all depends on the bike and the rider. That's great if you rode it and loved it or rode it and hated it. Feel free to have your opinion. Don't expect that people will take your opinion as gospel though.

    My 650b experience has been nothing but good. My bike is a converted 2009 Trek 8500 26er hardtail with a 26er Fox G2 offset 120mm fork. I have ridden the bike with both 650b and 26 and the bike was vastly improved with the 650b wheels.

    It was a great bike to begin with, but it really isn't the best climbing bike with 26er wheels. I'm not sure how much the fork had to do with that. The stock fork was a 100mm Fox without the G2 offset crown. The steering with 26er wheels is very fast and the bike is very agile especially at 100mm travel. It becomes much more natural and smooth with 650b and at 120mm it is smooth and plush. The bike climbs a lot better too. The climbing feels easier and the bike is easier to control while climbing. The front would want to wander a lot more and not easily go straight. It feels like it's much easier to climb with more like my 29er, and it says straight easily. Absolutely descends better. It tracks better and rolls smoother.

    Someone though could ride my bike and say it's terrible and handles terrible though. It started really as a race bike and it rides more like a trail bike with 650b and 120mm travel. I'm sure there are conversions that ride terrible though as some bikes are terrible to begin with.

  21. #21
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820
    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Did you not see the sentence about STSal being on the 650's for 4.5 seasons? Or that he hasn't been on a niner for several years? How that becomes "29r Trollish" by you comes off pretty lame. Knee jerk to say the least....
    Dude, I'm going by his actual words, not what you think he meant.

    When somebody says 27.5" can't justify its existence in the 27.5" forum, it's a troll.

    Who am I going to believe, my lying eyes or you?

    If he has supposedly ridden 27.5" bikes for that long, his proprioception is about as good as his writing skills. How can anybody who has ridden bikes for any length of time NOT tell the difference between 26", 27.5" and 29" wheels? That dog don't hunt.
    Last edited by dwt; 03-12-2013 at 12:10 PM.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  22. #22
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I've had similar experiences (keep in mind I'm quite tall and my trails here are 29" heaven) to Sal - when I ride 650b bikes, they just basically feel like 26" to me. YMMV, of course.
    27.5" bikes feel like 27.5" bikes to me; BOTH in terms of better rollover than 26"; AND slightly less nimble. Not the good part only and NOT the bad part only like Sal.

    There are definitely benefits to larger wheels for almost anyone, but I wouldn't rush out to buy the latest 650b offering if you've got a 26 or 29" wheel setup that you like.
    Nor would I or anyone I can think of.

    Heck, I build and get to test ride a TON of bikes. You would be shocked what you can't detect in terms of bike setup by riding - a full degree of head tube angle, for example, is actually below the threshold of detectability for many people. 10-15mm of wheel radius is not going to be noticeable to some riders unless they're expecting to feel a difference - but that's not to say it's not worthwhile.
    My mileage is this. I went from 26 to demoing 29. I was hooked on the rollover immediately, and had no trouble adjusting to wheelbase or any other supposed handling disadvantaged. But it was heavy.

    I did not have the coin for a new bike, so converted a 26 HT to 27.5" (built the wheels personally). Guess what? It does not roll like a 29", but still rolls noticeably better than 26". Going back and forth between the 3 bikes, the middle size was the preferred one overall for me. So I bought one if those closeout Jamis B2's for cheap, and love it.

    PS. bought Works 1.5 deg angleset for the hell of it, and reduced my HTA from 69 to 67.5. Obvious difference, up (wandering front wheel on steep climb) and down. Not even sure I'm happy. Must have been that extra .5 deg, eh?
    Last edited by dwt; 03-12-2013 at 12:08 PM.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  23. #23
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3,820

    To b or not to b?

    Delete duplicate
    Last edited by dwt; 03-12-2013 at 12:02 PM.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  24. #24
    just some guy
    Reputation: talabardio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    487
    I have a nice new 650b bike and after spending a bit of quality time with it, I can say that it handles in twisty singletrack in the woods (my absolute favorite type of riding), for me, better than comparative bikes of either larger or smaller wheel sizes. The front wheel feels a bit harder to loft than my 26er, but far easier than the 29er. I was a bit surprised at that actually, as the wheels are super light and I expected it to lift about the same as the 26er. It rolls really nicely; you have a sense of momentum, but do not feel like a passenger as I have felt on a 29er, and can still handle and accelerate with a lot of snap. The bike is very lively indeed, perhaps due to old school, "steep" XC geometry. The 29er I get to ride, in terms of absolute timed performance over a given stretch of trail, is about the same, but is not as much fun. I do like that roll-over-everything quality though, and wouldn't mind having a really nice 29er fall into my garage. So all in all the wheel size on this bike is as advertised: a fun, comfortable middle ground that works well for everything from short road rides around my neighborhood to hitting the dark, twisted Pacific NW singletrack. Now all that is left is to beef-up the old motor. Or tofu-up, given my tree-hugging diet.

  25. #25
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,956
    DWT, take a break from MTBR for a week or two. I'm serious. You need to get a bit less emotionally involved in this, you're coming across as a crazy person and I know you're not - so go do something else for a while.

    Also, FWIW not *every* post needs to have an image attached to it.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •