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  1. #51
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    derby, gvs_nz:

    Thanks for the thoughts, that's very useful. Glad to hear I've got a decent handle on it, conceptually anyhow.

    Given this, I'm going to set the HD up 26 to start. From what i'm hearing here, it sounds like I definitely want the option of 26 regardless since this bike is primarily for rougher more aggressive riding.

    Derby, I hear you about the whole > sum of the parts. If I can, I'll try to borrow a 650b wheel or two at some point and see how it feels to me. It seems like this needs to be experienced to be appreciated. I remain very interested in the size, and I expect that I will be inspired to mix it up a bit when I have the coin.

  2. #52
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    Just a footnote. I do notice a lift in speed using 650B on the rear of my hard tail even if I don't on FS bikes.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Just a footnote. I do notice a lift in speed using 650B on the rear of my hard tail even if I don't on FS bikes.
    I noticed a small improvement in climbing traction as well, going from a 26x2.3 to a 650x2.1 in a familiar tread.... I was mildly bummed about being limited to the skinnier tire on my Mojo SL, but after riding it I think it really is the better choice for 90% of my riding anyway.... faster rolling as well. On a related note, I was surprised at how much stiffer a Hadley/Flow/650b rear wheel was vs a Saint/Duster/26".... rims are the same width and both welded, but the Flow is quite a bit burlier obviously.

  4. #54
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    Were you running your front shock at 140 or 150?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemikemike View Post
    Derby, I hear you about the whole > sum of the parts. If I can, I'll try to borrow a 650b wheel or two at some point and see how it feels to me. It seems like this needs to be experienced to be appreciated. I remain very interested in the size, and I expect that I will be inspired to mix it up a bit when I have the coin.
    There will be a Santa Cruz Tallboy LT 140mm in february I think. Perhaps check this one. Cedric Gacia really like the original tallboy in Rampage race. So why not you with 140mm?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    There will be a Santa Cruz Tallboy LT 140mm in february I think. So why not you with 140mm?
    Good idea. Throw some 650b wheels on it and an angleset to make it a low, slack and nimble trail ripper.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by srbeck View Post
    Were you running your front shock at 140 or 150?
    Not sure if that's directed at me, but if so, I'm running a Pushed '09 Revelation at 140mm.

    I also have a 2010 150 Rev that was, in terms of geometry and handling:
    great w/ 26" f&r
    slack and fun downwill w/ 650b f & 26 rear, but would just barely clear a racing ralph which is not a good tire for my trails
    and I haven't tried it with 650b f&r because I'm already at about as high a BB as I want, and I'd have to file out the arch to fit a decent front tire.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover View Post
    Good idea. Throw some 650b wheels on it and an angleset to make it a low, slack and nimble trail ripper.
    Okay but there are no 4" or wider tyres and only those could match 29er ones in height. Just like 3" Gazzalodi with 2,3" Neo moto and think about the weight.... Check 26" Surly 4,75" they are as tall as 29er ones, but the weight...

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield View Post
    Okay but there are no 4" or wider tyres and only those could match 29er ones in height....
    Okay, but that was my point.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  10. #60
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    Anyone running a 650 in the front only? i.e. 650/26".
    Grammar and spelling errors are complementary.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwing_ding View Post
    Anyone running a 650 in the front only? i.e. 650/26".
    I think just about everybody who's tried it, at least on Mojos, started out that way because it's such a simple no-brainer upgrade....and it also pays the biggest dividends.

  12. #62
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    I did 650b/26 combo at first on my trusty old Mojo C. It raises the fork and front of frame 1/2 inch. At first felt unbalanced until I lowered the bars 1/2 inch and bumped my seat forward about 1/4 inch and up slightly to return to my familiar fit and balance over the pedals and wheels.

    With 650b/26 combo handling FEELS like it's 1 degree slacker in cornering, stability, and slow ride speed wheel flop.

    I tried my previous 26" high volume 2.4 inch front wheel once again to be sure 650b was worth it, and the 26" front wheel felt harsh in comparison to the 650bx2.3 front. The 650b could run a couple pounds lower tire pressure with the same width rim as my 26" rim.

    6 month's later added to 650b in the rear to raise the Mojo's very low BB up to 13.5 with a 140mm travel fork for the rocky trails I like the most, also to improve rolling ease further, and regain most of the quicker handing geometry.

    I never put 26" wheels back on the Mojo C.

    And later, last summer, swapped the 650b wheels and Lyrik u-turn fork from my Mojo C to a new HD frame.

  13. #63
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    Been on 29ers since '07, and have been looking for a big bike to compliment the 29er HT. Rough terrain here in AZ, so have been considering two yet-to-be-out bigger travel 29ers...Ripley and SB-95. After having my fork in the shop for a bit, I got tired of running the 29er fully rigid. Decided to demo a Mojo HD setup 160mm F & R. My pre-conceived notions (mostly derived from my memory of the last 4" and 5" 26ers I owned) were nearly smashed to bits with this bike. First time on a DW bike, and it more than offset traction yet remained very efficient for a 6+" bike. The surprise was how well the front end tracked. Great lateral traction, braking traction, off camber traction, and rollin with the slack angles was simply amazing. I don't remember my 26ers rolling in as well as a 29er, and remember them being hung up easier. The geo difference, combined with the 160mm fork erased that difference and then some.

    It make me think a few things. First - do I want a big travel 29er, or a bigger travel 26er like the Mojo HD? Second - if the MOJO HD was so good, a bigger travel (slacker than average 29er) could be off the charts. Third - what if you take the HD and add the 650b up front? Hence my earlier question here.

    The only negative I came away with was fatigue. After 3x rides of about 3 hours each, I was worked over/tired. It usually takes me 5 hours to get this way with my 29er HT. Am I wasting efficiency riding it a little bit like a HT instead of a fully? Likely some. Is there a big difference in weight - 5.5 lbs. is the answer so yeah. Was I having fun, thus pushing things harder? Perhaps.

    Really just rambling on a bit. My entire perspective just shifted, and it is taking me time to make sense of it all.
    Grammar and spelling errors are complementary.

  14. #64
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    What trails in AZ are you riding? I have a Turner Sultan with 140mm upfront and 68.5 HA. I also have a Ibis Mojo SL with 150mm upfront and 650b front wheel. They are both really great bikes for AZ. For trails like Javelina, Hawes, and K-trail I think the 29er is a better fit. For National, Geronimo, & Mormon I think the Mojo is a better fit.

  15. #65
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    I was in the same boat looking at a longer travel 29er to compliment my Pivot 429 which has 100mm in back and a 120mm Reba fork. I demoed an Ibis HD and "that's all she wrote". I put a 2.35 Navegal 650b up front and love the way it handles. This thing climbs way better than any 6" bike I've every ridden. I climb everything I ride so I'm able to access some killer DH trails. I also demoed the WFO, RIP 9, Sultan, and Tracer 29er, but the HD turns quicker and handles DH trails better. I would rate the 429 cross country to all mountain. The HD all mountain to free ride.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwing_ding View Post
    Been on 29ers since '07, and have been looking for a big bike to compliment the 29er HT. Rough terrain here in AZ, so have been considering two yet-to-be-out bigger travel 29ers...Ripley and SB-95. After having my fork in the shop for a bit, I got tired of running the 29er fully rigid. Decided to demo a Mojo HD setup 160mm F & R. My pre-conceived notions (mostly derived from my memory of the last 4" and 5" 26ers I owned) were nearly smashed to bits with this bike. First time on a DW bike, and it more than offset traction yet remained very efficient for a 6+" bike. The surprise was how well the front end tracked. Great lateral traction, braking traction, off camber traction, and rollin with the slack angles was simply amazing. I don't remember my 26ers rolling in as well as a 29er, and remember them being hung up easier. The geo difference, combined with the 160mm fork erased that difference and then some.

    .
    I'm pretty sure many of the early converts to 29ers had never ever ridden a slack angled 26" bike. Most were hung up with preconceived ideas about ETT and xc bike fit combined with most slack angled bikes weighing gazillions for DH duties only.
    This years generation of 26" trail bikes now have very long wheelbase, low bb and slack angles.MOJO is now looking a bit retro in the wheelbase figures for 26" but ideal for 650B. I suspect future bikes designed for 650b will pull back some of the wheelbase and head angle to match the strengths of 650B stability over 26".

  17. #67
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    @gvs_nz: Definitely came from a XC background, and was doing shorter ultras at the time. 50 to 150 mile stuff. I would have never considered a big bike then, let alone a DH. Now that I want a play bike to compliment the distance bike, I am amazed at how far they have come.

    @Brisco Dog: Sedona - backside of Highline, some of the lesser known trails I won't mention. I can ride about 95% of things on the 29" HT, but it can be both on the edge and sketch at times. Riding the same stuff on the HD was so much easier. I rode a non-DW Sultan a while back in Fruita. Horsethief Bench, etc. I liked a lot about it, but did not like the long rear end. I had a RIP setup w/ a 120mm fork. It was a good all-rounder, but too steep for the really good stuff around here.

    @Dustyman: Thought about the 429 with the new F34 set at 140mm. DW in the rear, would lift the BB (I like them higher), would slacken out the front, built for big wheels, etc. I have a hard time ponying up for something like that, then voiding the warranty with a fork set at 140mm. WFO does not have enough platform for me, RIP was not slack enough and had recurring chain suck issues, Sultan is too long in the rear, and so is the Tracer.

    So far the only thing in question with the HD is that tired feeling at the end of the ride. I remember having fun on a 26er Ventana back in '08, then feeling wore out at the end of the ride too. Yeah, the smaller hoops spin up quicker, but the momentum of the bigger wheels seems to save energy for my style of riding in the long run.

    Wondering if any of you who have converted to 650b have noticed any difference in that department. The DW link suspension does not seem inefficient, and having a suspended rear should save some energy by standing less in our rough terrain. The guy who set it up seemed to have the shock and fork setting dialed.
    Grammar and spelling errors are complementary.

  18. #68
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    Derby could answer that question about 650b. I know the HD 140 will fit both front and rear with plenty of clearence. I wanted a bike with at least 160mm of travel, so I was concerned with clearence issues in the rear. I do use all my travel on every ride so I'm confident with my decision. The 650b up front makes it an easier transition from the HD to the 29er. If your rides are 3 hrs plus I would go with the 29er, plus it sounds like you prefer cross country. In my humble opinion 29ers are much better for endurance riding. I rode my 429 last year in Sedona and it was perfect. Maybe try and wait until Pivot releases their carbon 29er. I'm all over that.

  19. #69
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    Shock length

    Curious about this

    HD 140 7.875 x 2.0 = 140mm travel
    HD 160 8.5 x 2.5 = 160mm travel

    HD 150 7.875 x 2.25 = 150mm travel???

    Not one of the standard shocks from IBIS but what do you guys think?

    For me this bike sounds da bomb in 650B. Price might keep me off of one though. How's the climbing in 140 mode with 650B? For me climbing technical crap is huge requirement more so than downhill ability which the HD has in spades no matter what setting.
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Curious about this

    HD 140 7.875 x 2.0 = 140mm travel
    HD 160 8.5 x 2.5 = 160mm travel

    HD 150 7.875 x 2.25 = 150mm travel???

    Not one of the standard shocks from IBIS but what do you guys think?

    For me this bike sounds da bomb in 650B. Price might keep me off of one though. How's the climbing in 140 mode with 650B? For me climbing technical crap is huge requirement more so than downhill ability which the HD has in spades no matter what setting.
    My 2011 HD gen-2 has a 4 mm "dent" or concave designed in the back of the seat tube allowing increase wheel clearance. I'm using a 2.25x7.875 shock when set up as an HD140, and my 2.3x650b Neo-moto barely clears the seat tube with no shock shimming.

    I've communicated the clearance with a 2.25 shock with Ibis. They had never tested it, even with 26" wheels. They also have never tested 650b (yet!)

    Due to the rising rate leverage of the HD, I'm guessing the added 12.5% shock shaft travel makes about 152mm vertical wheel travel, maybe 154mm (not 157.5mm which is 12.5% greater than 140mm travel). With the 2.25 shock in the HD140, the bottom travel limit is nearly the same as the HD160 with bigger shock and different shock mounts, the difference is mostly in top travel, the HD140 measures 1/4 inch lower at the BB than the HD160 using the same fork, before sag.

    The HD climbs great in 140 or 160mm travel, few bikes of any travel compare for ease and control climbing, especially climbing rocks. Only the weight of a heavy duty component build is a factor for ease of climbing.

  21. #71
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    Derby...great info, much appreciated!!!

    Probably not worth the effort for me as it would require a non standard 2nd shock either from Fox or a custom Push Monarch.

    Really, really hard to believe those Ibis guys haven't messed around with that shock length or especially the 650B wheels when they must know guys are doing this conversion. Maybe with Fox coming out with the new 650B fork this might change but for me knowing it already converts easily is all I need to know. For the riding I do here in New England 140mm is about perfect IMO and with the 650 wheels the BB height is perfect. What you mentioned about it's rock climbing has me salivating as we have just a few rocks here. There is a local shop that has a demo Mojo (HD?) I should try. It's a medium and I should probably be on a large (6' tall) but I should still give it a whirl to see how it feels.

    One more thing...on the Ibis web site it lists the Mojo 140 HA at 68 degrees with a 150 fork. So with a 140 fork it's now closer to 68.5 degrees I would assume. Have you tried it this way and how does it feel/ride if so? Jeez this bike crazy versatile.
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwing_ding View Post
    Yeah, the smaller hoops spin up quicker, but the momentum of the bigger wheels seems to save energy for my style of riding in the long run.

    Wondering if any of you who have converted to 650b have noticed any difference in that department. The DW link suspension does not seem inefficient, and having a suspended rear should save some energy by standing less in our rough terrain. The guy who set it up seemed to have the shock and fork setting dialed.
    Yes, definitely. The 650b wheels roll & maintain speed better, hang up less, and allow for a more relaxed hand at the helm. To me, it feels (FEELS, mind you) like you're getting 75% of the benefit of 29" wheels, with none of the downside....unless you need a lot of mud clearance.

  23. #73
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    Yeah, the word is definitely NOT out in a lot of circles. I just ordered a shimmed down Monarch RT-AM for my SL from Push, and when I mentioned the possibility of using it later at full 2.25" stroke for around 150mm on an HD140 they said couldn't be done. I didn't argue, although I'm pretty sure they just haven't looked at it closely... and they're much higher on the HD160 than the 140 anyway... They like the shock rate much better on the 160 apparently.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Derby...great info, much appreciated!!!

    Probably not worth the effort for me as it would require a non standard 2nd shock either from Fox or a custom Push Monarch.

    Really, really hard to believe those Ibis guys haven't messed around with that shock length or especially the 650B wheels when they must know guys are doing this conversion. Maybe with Fox coming out with the new 650B fork this might change but for me knowing it already converts easily is all I need to know. For the riding I do here in New England 140mm is about perfect IMO and with the 650 wheels the BB height is perfect. What you mentioned about it's rock climbing has me salivating as we have just a few rocks here. There is a local shop that has a demo Mojo (HD?) I should try. It's a medium and I should probably be on a large (6' tall) but I should still give it a whirl to see how it feels.

    One more thing...on the Ibis web site it lists the Mojo 140 HA at 68 degrees with a 150 fork. So with a 140 fork it's now closer to 68.5 degrees I would assume. Have you tried it this way and how does it feel/ride if so? Jeez this bike crazy versatile.
    Versatile is the word I describe the HD when riders along the trail ask how I like my bike. My original Mojo C was versatile too, but the HD's added travel options really make 2 unique feeling bikes. And 650b front-only or both ends increases the versatility of either bike.

    Regarding head angle and fork travel, I haven't got a tool to measure the frame angles accurately, I'll go with what Ibis claims because it feels just right for it's travel for rocky eroded trail. I have a Lyrik u-turn coil and can raise or lower the fork minutely from 115 to 160mm travel. In the HD140 short shock setting I usually run at 140mm for the tight twisty single track of my local trails, sometimes lowered to 130mm for climbing and if feeling like attacking the tight turns quicker with more front end cornering traction. And for longer downhill raise it to 150mm for more stability and flow at faster speeds, and more confidence braking hard and hopping off drops.

    At 140mm travel the Lyrik and most other 35 or 36mm forks have a beefier crown adding 10mm axle-to-crown height over a 32 fork at 140mm travel, so my Lyrik at 140mm travel makes the same frame geometry as a 32 fork with 150mm travel.

    Ibis is a small company and they are all very strong expert riders, from the president of the company to the person sweeping the floors at the end of the day, which might be the president sometimes. It seems that elite riders are slow to change what works well for them. The 29'er project was a real stretch for their personal interests, they have a 'cross bike which covers what 29'ers are good at. But the market demand was ripe for a light weight carbon 29'er DWL to make the investment. I've suggested removable dropouts to allow 650b more clearance, also for BB height tweaking, but they are fixated on designing light weight, and stiff removable dropouts would add a few grams also require expensive retooling for carbon fiber molds, for a minimal gain in sales currently. In reality it's probable that only a handful or two riders in the world are riding 650b Mojo's currently, the market for 650b Ibis is still very small. Now that Fox is planning a 650b fork, Ibis is talking about 650b internally. They have limited bank, they are self funded, and although profitable on paper, the owners still have not broke even since the initial partners funded the company in 2003 or so, but breakeven for the owners is becoming closer. They have a long term vision, and it is succeeding.

  25. #75
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    ok... I've finally made the conversion of my HD140 into 650b...
    In my case I am using my Fox 150mm and as you can see from the picture there is no problem with clearance...
    Now I wish the rain would stop so that I can take it and see how it performs,,,,,
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-2012-01-22-11.23.51.jpg  

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty-2012-01-22-11.39.03.jpg  


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