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  1. #1
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    Best 26" hardtails from the past 10-15 years? Any with modern geometry?

    I am in the process of totally rebuilding my 1997 GT Avalanche with modern components. Being a 26" - I have been able to get some really sweet parts for kinda cheap. I have been able to put together an amazing bike a lot less than a comparable new one. It looks like, when it's all said & done, the bike will end up at right around 23.0 pounds with 2.35 tires, wide bars, shorter stem, and a 100mm Fox F100 RLC. Fun!

    Question - What were the best of the best 26" hardtails in the years before 26erís faded out of the mainstream? Did any of them have what we now call modern geometry?

    If my frame fails some day, or I decide to retire it... I'm wondering what frame to put the parts I have onto? I wouldn't mind being on the lookout for a good deal on a nice older frame to have as a backup.

    In my searches, it appears that a 2010 Specialized Rockhopper and a 2011 GT Zaskar (maybe even carbon Zaskar?) were fairly highly thought of? Suggestions? Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Also curious!

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  3. #3
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    Jamis Dragon! XC race bike so not what is considered modern geometry. I wanted one for years, always watching eBay and bidding but price always went too high. Then just a couple of years ago I won an auction at a great price. Needed a few things but it is now my back-up bike to my 29er full suspension.

    Best 26" hardtails from the past 10-15 years? Any with modern geometry?-dragon.jpg
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  4. #4
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    stumpjumper

    I have an '07 rockhopper and it's still going strong

  5. #5
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    there's loads... problem is the later you go, the less stuff of your's will fit, ie going from a 1997 avalanche to a 2011 zaskar if you went carbon, then almost none of you're parts would be a direct swap, not the end of the world, but a pain.

    But for me:
    Yeti ARC
    GT Zaskar
    GT Xizang (26er not the 29er)
    RM Blizzard
    Tomac Taos

    or for the deeper pockets, Seven/Indy Fab
    All the gear and no idea.

  6. #6
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    2002-2004 Santa Cruz Chameleon. SS/DJ/DH/DS/4x/XC.....100mm-150mm fork.
    I resolve to constantly assert my honest opinion on anything and everything - whether it is requested or not.
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  7. #7
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    On One 456 and Surly Instigator 2.0 (26+ but can run 26 standard with a taller fork)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    there's loads... problem is the later you go, the less stuff of your's will fit, ie going from a 1997 avalanche to a 2011 zaskar if you went carbon, then almost none of you're parts would be a direct swap, not the end of the world, but a pain.

    But for me:
    Yeti ARC
    GT Zaskar
    GT Xizang (26er not the 29er)
    RM Blizzard
    Tomac Taos

    or for the deeper pockets, Seven/Indy Fab
    I can learn something here. What parts wouldn't fit? In my mind, the parts that wouldn't transfer would be:
    Crankset maybe?
    Fork (though I believe you can get an adapter for straight tube to tapered?)
    Seat Post
    I already have converted to disc brakes so I'm good to go there
    Anything else?

  9. #9
    Sneaker man
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    well if you already have disc f/r then they'll fit (just going on the assumption that a 97 avalanche was v brake only) so you won't need brakes o wheels
    Yeah you'll need an adapet for the headset, not ideal, but works.
    I see your running a 100mm fork (re reading), and a 2011 would be built around 100 so that'l work fine... (just i wouldn't runn 100mm on the 97...but thats just me, been there done that, wasn't great.
    Cranks, it depends on weather the carbon zaskars are press fit, the origianl ones weren't but at some point they changed and ~2011 was a frame update.

    Just playing devils advocate... anything you want to get, the newer, the less stuff will fit, so you just need to research them a bit so you don't get stuck.
    All the gear and no idea.

  10. #10
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    Good input. Thanks. The 97 Avalanche did have V brakes, but I fab'd up a rear mount. Now have Shimano XT M8000 brakes on the old ride.

    I am enjoying researching the 26" hardtails people have suggested.

  11. #11
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    Already mentioned, but the Rocky Mountain Blizzard and Hammer series, along with the Blizzard LT. The Hammers were complete while the Blizzards were frame only. Still riding a Blizzard myself. Obviously any Dekerf as well.

    Surly 1x1s and older 26" Monkeys along with the Instigator
    Salsa Ala Carte
    Kona had some nice hardtails: Cinder Cone, Fire Mountain?
    I remember liking Alpine Stars and the pre-Trek Fishers, Bontragers in the '90's
    Schwinn Homegrowns

    I don't think any had what is considered modern geometry. Some certainly had a longer travel fork for a more trail than xc feel, but the ETT was shorter, stems longer, bars more narrow, steeper HT angle.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  12. #12
    Sneaker man
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    maybe a Cove hummer (or any Cove I guess) would have more modernish geo...
    All the gear and no idea.

  13. #13
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    Not too many of them out there but the Bianchi Grizzly/Super Grizzly or their Reparto Corse big brothers are niiiiiiiiice. XC geo so if that doesn't do it for you then look elsewhere.

    Mine:
    2002 Bianchi Tycoon XL Boron by Peter Sims, on Flickr

  14. #14
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    The Santa Cruz Chameleon is a great frame.

    I however, am partial to my '01 Homegrown. It's the only year with IS disk brake tabs.
    One gear is all you need.

  15. #15
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    Even running up towards 2013, you're not going to find much with modern geometry.

    Im sure all these guys have very fond memories of their early 2000's bikes, but those are in no way modern. Its not a small difference either, its kind of huge. Those are all short frames with long seat tubes and steep angles.

    I made it one season on my 07 chameleon. Thats a harsh riding stiff bike. I wouldnt go looking for one.

    Its really worth looking at real modern 27.5 frames. They're cheaper than you think. You can run 26er wheels on them anyway and still get all the benefits. The fork offset alone is a big deal. 27.5 started around 2012-2014, so you have a pretty significant amount of awesome used frames to pick through.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Its really worth looking at real modern 27.5 frames. They're cheaper than you think. You can run 26+ wheels on them anyway and still get all the benefits. The fork offset alone is a big deal. 27.5 started around 2012-2014, so you have a pretty significant amount of awesome used frames to pick through.
    fify

    *Maybe not all, but quite a few I'd imagine.
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  17. #17
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    My 26x2.35 HD tire is exactly the same height as my 27.5x2.3 purgatory tire. Theres a *lot* of overlap.

    27.5 plus is similar to 29er... but 26 and 27.5 are similar without even considering plus. You can literally throw your old 26er wheelset on a brand new 27.5 bike and you're good to go (assuming you can get the proper hub adapters).

    I went to a 27.5 xfusion fork, and for long travel trail bikes, the extra offset is really nice.

  18. #18
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    For modern-ish geo, go up a frame size and deal with the stand over.

  19. #19
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    Bontragers, any of them.
    Voodoo Bizango, Sobo, Bokor, Djab
    Salsa Al A Carte, Moto Rapido
    Santa Cruz Chameleon, Highball

    Many 26" Ti Frames, Marin, Merlin, Moots, Dean, Lynskey etc..
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    26 and 27.5 are similar without even considering plus. You can literally throw your old 26er wheelset on a brand new 27.5 bike and you're good to go (assuming you can get the proper hub adapters).
    Finally the correct answer. 650b is bullshit, and most production 650b frames are improved by a wisely chosen 26" wheel and tire... although the difference is vanishingly small.

    The 26" roadie geo frames of yesteryear are good for nothing but commuting, and the high end ones aren't good for that... although they are superior wall ornaments. Updating one of those is useful only as a reminder of how long it took to get away from the idiocy grant peterson saddled us with.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post

    The 26" roadie geo frames of yesteryear are good for nothing but commuting, and the high end ones aren't good for that... although they are superior wall ornaments. Updating one of those is useful only as a reminder of how long it took to get away from the idiocy grant peterson saddled us with.
    Oh come one, you realise that there are many, many people still riding ye-oldie bikes out on the trails and still managing to have fun and make it through without spontaneously exploding. I regularly race my old 90's Ti HT, and have a blast doing it, sure, it's course specific, but it's a far better tool for the job for those courses than my newer FS bike. Old bikes arn't redundant, just more niche.
    All the gear and no idea.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    Oh come one, you realise that there are many, many people still riding ye-oldie bikes out on the trails and still managing to have fun and make it through without spontaneously exploding. I regularly race my old 90's Ti HT, and have a blast doing it, sure, it's course specific, but it's a far better tool for the job for those courses than my newer FS bike. Old bikes arn't redundant, just more niche.
    People are undoubtedly still having fun but they would all be faster and crash less on a modern geo bike.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeBro View Post
    People are undoubtedly still having fun but they would all be faster and crash less on a modern geo bike.
    Well it depends, maybe modern geo gives them the confidence to ride harder stuff, or just go faster, so maybe they crash more and/or have bigger crashes... not saying this IS the case, but it's just as possible to crashing less.
    But either way, just pointing out that just because you have an old bike doesn't mean you have to just hang it on the wall and stop riding if you can't afford a new bike or something. Depending on what you are riding, they can be perfectly fine.
    All the gear and no idea.

  24. #24
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    The De Kerf Implant Ti is the coolest frame I've never owned.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  25. #25
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    My Chromag Gypsy is the reason I sold my Cove STD. An amazingly capable bike for a hardtail, but a recent ride at the Lunch Loops reminded me of the limitations of a hardtail...

  26. #26
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    [QUOTE=84GTIRookie;13429711]I am in the process of totally rebuilding my 1997 GT Avalanche with modern components.

    Any pics? I'm "updating" a 94 Timberline FS for a friend's kid.

    I'll put up some pics tonight.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeBro View Post
    People are undoubtedly still having fun but they would all be faster and crash less on a modern geo bike.
    Cuz we all know you can go in and buy fitness and skill at your LBS.
    The sales guy told me so.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Cuz we all know you can go in and buy fitness and skill at your LBS.
    The sales guy told me so.
    And trails aren't being sanitized all over the country because modern geo bikes handle better...
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    And trails aren't being sanitized all over the country because modern geo bikes handle better...
    They're not being sanitized, they're being 'modernized'. Just think - people will be able ride faster and crash less on them now! And they won't have to become better riders to do it! Isn't modern mountain biking cool?

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  30. #30
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    I always liked Specialized Stumpjumpers. Had an M2 and an M5.

    I don't know what modern geometry is. :cry:

    Had a FSR but hated full suspension, so when I got my Niner Air 9, it killed my quiver. Love that thing.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    And trails aren't being sanitized all over the country because modern geo bikes handle better...
    This has been happening literally since the beginning of mountain biking. The more people that ride, the more trails get sanitized. It would make more sense to argue that strava ruined more trails.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    This has been happening literally since the beginning of mountain biking. The more people that ride, the more trails get sanitized. It would make more sense to argue that strava ruined more trails.
    I agree, I think the trail should be about the ride not about how fast it's over. However, I also have to recognize the rights of others to enjoy the sport as they so choose. Wouldn't it be great if new trails weren't designed or built from old trails? Then we could have twice as many trails and minimize the complaints, the judgement, and the bickering over KOMs. I was chatting with a co-worker, a roadie but I don't hold it against him, who was telling me that a few people he knows are pissed they are losing their KOMs to guy with an e-road bike. My co-worker thinks there will have to be a reckoning and thinks strava will have to monitor heart rates and cadence in order to provide a "handicap" as done in golf as the equalizer for KOMs. I chuckled because I don't care about KOM's and ride for the smile on my face. Which in my case is not necessarily about how fast I ride. Enjoy the ride, I'm not gonna beat you on my old short ETT 26 wheeled Blizz of yesteryear. See you later, I'm gonna enjoy myself.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  33. #33
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    Cotic?

    Im partial to my 2010 Coconino. Custom built for a Fox Float 120 with 68* head tube
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Best 26" hardtails from the past 10-15 years? Any with modern geometry?-build.jpg  


  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannonball View Post
    Cotic?

    Im partial to my 2010 Coconino. Custom built for a Fox Float 120 with 68* head tube
    Alligator bell straight up wins it.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_ View Post
    I always liked Specialized Stumpjumpers. Had an M2 and an M5.

    I don't know what modern geometry is. :cry:

    Had a FSR but hated full suspension, so when I got my Niner Air 9, it killed my quiver. Love that thing.
    +1 on the mid-to-late-90s M2 Stumpy

    I also always wanted a Rocky Mountain Altitude TO

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetdog9 View Post
    +1 on the mid-to-late-90s M2 Stumpy
    Those things don't remotely resemble anything with 'modern geometry'.
    The were fun, but really stiff ride, and kinda brittle. Was lucky to get more than a couple seasons out of them bitd.
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  37. #37
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    Sorry I disregarded the geometry part, guess I was just being nostalgic and thinking of some cool bikes friends had that I wish I had. At least my old Mongoose is still going strong (or collecting dust)...

  38. #38
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    I love it! "...fond memories" I ride my Homegrown several times a week. My fond memories are less than 24 hours old.
    One gear is all you need.

  39. #39
    Sneaker man
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Those things don't remotely resemble anything with 'modern geometry'.
    The were fun, but really stiff ride, and kinda brittle. Was lucky to get more than a couple seasons out of them bitd.
    OP wasn't asking for bikes 10-15 years old ONLY with modern geo.

    edit: although yes, mid to late 90's isnt, its what the OP already has
    All the gear and no idea.

  40. #40
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    How about a Gary Fisher genesis model? They led the way with the long top tube/short chainstays/short stem idea. The head angle is still steep by modern standards, but a longer fork would fix that.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hankthespacecowboy View Post
    My Chromag Gypsy is the reason I sold my Cove STD. An amazingly capable bike for a hardtail, but a recent ride at the Lunch Loops reminded me of the limitations of a hardtail...
    I was thinking of the Stylus just now and thought; Aren't there other decade old AM/park bikes that would fit the bill?
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  42. #42
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    -Cove Stiffee circa 2007-2012, to me, is a killer all around bike. Paired with a Talas or Dual Air 130-150mm fork and you are unstoppable with 2.5 tire clearance.
    -Jamis Komodo (as mentioned) as well, but watch the seat tube, they can break (happened to me) if you giv'r on a regular basis, or run a small frame/ long seat post extension.
    -RMB Blizzard- 2004+ with angles for a 100mm fork, classic in so many ways, had shorter chain stays before they became cool. The Tange or 853 tubed ones are better, in my opinion, to the Columbus tubed ones; lighter and feel better, I've owned all 3.
    -Iron Horse Warrior, laugh all you want this bike kicks ass, and is gusseted under the head/down tube union. I still own this bike and will never get rid of it.

    All the above being stated, an adjustable travel fork can make a hardtail into an even more competent climber, and a capable descender.
    Best 26" hardtails from the past 10-15 years? Any with modern geometry?-2017-05-21-13.03.00.jpg

  43. #43
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    The last Cannondales built in America.
    Sample of technical invention, great technology and honest craft.Best 26" hardtails from the past 10-15 years? Any with modern geometry?-e6fs7sblu.jpg

  44. #44
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    Yeti ARC was my favorite hardtail I ever had.


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  45. #45
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    My favorite was the M5 Stumpy hard tail. Not modern geometry though.
    Next would be the Chameleon. More modern geometry and could handle anything from 80-160mm in the front.

  46. #46
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    my favorite 26" hardtails are:

    1994-97 GT karakoram-you gotta love how that triple triangle sprints. i owned a '94, my buddy had a '97 or 98.

    AND...

    the 1997-98 ibis alibi. i owned the orange one (i think a '96) and a '97 or 98 frame in a lovely burgundy color. near the end, ibis was selling the alibi frame for a little more than a song.

    somehow, ibis made an aluminum hardtail that felt like steel to me.

  47. #47
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    The "modern geometry" point is key here. Older bikes just don't cut it, with a few exceptions. It's nice to ride down memory lane, but most 90's hardtail bikes are not all that wonderful to ride compared to newer rides. Many early 21st century dirt jumpers actually had "modern geometry" before it was called that, and are hardtails. They're cheap, too.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by woofer2609 View Post
    The "modern geometry" point is key here. Older bikes just don't cut it, with a few exceptions. It's nice to ride down memory lane, but most 90's hardtail bikes are not all that wonderful to ride compared to newer rides. Many early 21st century dirt jumpers actually had "modern geometry" before it was called that, and are hardtails. They're cheap, too.
    Examples you like?

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  49. #49
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    Honestly, the Cove Stiffee, or the RMB Blizzard come to mind first.
    2008 Kona Cowan is a contender for DJ bikes, but sometimes the frames fit REALLY small, and are hevyish.
    Chain Reaction sells a NS Reaction frame for under $200 that would meet your criteria, as well.
    The 2011 RMB Blizzard LT is gonna be as rare as a hens tooth, but as for cache, it's the one to have.
    2008-2012 Stiffee if you want a burly, longer travel bike.
    I'm not sure the Blizzard would fit a dropper, or if that is a priority. It may have gone to a 27.2mm dia. seat tube, earlier ones were 26.8, so no go. Stiffee is easy to fit a dropper to.
    Stiffee suits 140-160mm 34mm stanchion forks, Blizzard 110-150mm 32-34mm stanchion forks.
    A travel adjust fork will make these bikes better all rounders.
    To each their own.

  50. #50
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    Also look at CroMag and Transition Trans Am, the latter being a pretty rad frame.

  51. #51
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    If you want a modern bike with 26 wheels, you can buy one and put 26 wheels on it. Theres nothing stopping you and no reason not to do it.

    Although if you just rode it with the 27.5 wheels, you'd probably enjoy it, and you'd enjoy all the rim and tire options you have.

  52. #52
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    I'm just swapping parts from an old 26er and want to spend as little as possible.

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  53. #53
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    https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2286710/
    Not sure what size frame you want, but this is what I'd be looking at, $170 USD for a sweet frame.
    I was in the same boat and bought my Iron Horse for $20 CAD, but did have to spend $50 for variables (collar for dropper post, new front d, etc.)

  54. #54
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    I'm an xl. Sorry to derail op

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  55. #55
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    Mid-2000 Specialized HardRocks we're pretty close. Short chainstays, lower top tubes. If you put a taller fork on it, you'll get even closer. Originally came with 80mm travel, I think. I put a 120mm fork on mine.

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  56. #56
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    the On One 456. It is still my main ride. The bike is an f'ng blast. Ride xc - great. long climbs and descents - great, rollers and pop offs - great, tech stuff - great. races - ok maybe not, but I don't race.

    It is seriously my favorite bike ever.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by micky View Post
    the On One 456. It is still my main ride. The bike is an f'ng blast. Ride xc - great. long climbs and descents - great, rollers and pop offs - great, tech stuff - great. races - ok maybe not, but I don't race.

    It is seriously my favorite bike ever.
    Agreed. I love mine. Super playful on singletrack, but handled Pisgah for me no problem (I never got to double blacks or anything). For the price it's tough to beat.

  58. #58
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    I am the OP'er. Here is the 97' GT Avalanche I've rebuilt.

    Goal is to make it more of a trail bike that can do DH as well as it does XC.

    As you can see, if the frame needs changed out, I have a good base of parts to swap to another frame. Thus the post.

    About the only parts of the bike that are orig. are the frame, headset (and 3X8 drivetrain which I'm getting ready to swap to 1X10 with SRAM X9 rear derailleur & Race Face narrow wide drive).

    Being a 26" I got a good deal on the new parts. The bike is 24lbs right now. Will be under 23lbs when all done.

    Best 26" hardtails from the past 10-15 years? Any with modern geometry?-side-view-bike.jpg
    Best 26" hardtails from the past 10-15 years? Any with modern geometry?-1209171804-1-.jpgBest 26" hardtails from the past 10-15 years? Any with modern geometry?-bike-rear-view.jpg

  59. #59
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    ^yeah nice, got to love an old GT.

    I'v got a 96 Xizang which is a nice bike, descends OK, climbs great (but thats probably more a fit + setup issue,plus brakes) and a zaskar reissue which is about as perfect a bike as I could want in a HT. Fits me better than the xizang, climbs great, descends great, plus is designed around a 100mm fork and discs. Brilliant.
    All the gear and no idea.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by micky View Post
    the On One 456. It is still my main ride. The bike is an f'ng blast. Ride xc - great. long climbs and descents - great, rollers and pop offs - great, tech stuff - great. races - ok maybe not, but I don't race.

    It is seriously my favorite bike ever.
    man i loved mine, so fun. I cracked the seat stay at the wishbone after 2000 miles.


    It's a bit short in front, so a little under gunned at speed, but oh well! Great frame for mucking around.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    I'v got a 96 Xizang which is a nice bike, descends OK, climbs great (but thats probably more a fit + setup issue,plus brakes) and a zaskar reissue which is about as perfect a bike as I could want in a HT. Fits me better than the xizang, climbs great, descends great, plus is designed around a 100mm fork and discs. Brilliant.
    By the 'reissue' Zaskar do you mean the orig. frame that they made a limited run of years after the orig. Zaskar had retired? Was that frame the exact same as the orig? I also wonder how different a Zaskar frame is from an Avalanche (1990's vs. 1990's) other than the Avalanche was made in Taiwan not USA, and was 7005 Al vs. 6061 Al? Is there a resource that has the geometry of those old bikes?

    Of the bikes people have posted, I like the looks of the Chameleon for sure...

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84GTIRookie View Post
    By the 'reissue' Zaskar do you mean the orig. frame that they made a limited run of years after the orig. Zaskar had retired? Was that frame the exact same as the orig? I also wonder how different a Zaskar frame is from an Avalanche (1990's vs. 1990's) other than the Avalanche was made in Taiwan not USA, and was 7005 Al vs. 6061 Al? Is there a resource that has the geometry of those old bikes?
    Yeah the 2008 reissue, it looks like a 1992 frame, but is designed around a 100mm intead of 60mm fork and has disc tabs and guides and a semi integrated headset, same spec (apparently) tubeset, they made 500 of them.

    There's not a lot of different zaskar to avalanche, I think in 1998 they are the exact same frame (both US made, 6061), but '97 the avalanche is still Tawain and 7005 (not that 7005 is bad in any way, sstut slightly different to 6061). I'd imagine the geo would be the same (71/74angles etc, geo for frames are usually in the catalogues - but of course for some reason not in the 97 one)
    All the gear and no idea.

  63. #63
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    My fav frame material is 6013 alloy sad for me out of favor for the last 15 years. But at least 6013 in smartphones!


    DailyTech - Analysis: iPhone 6S May Use 6013 Aluminum Alloy Instead of 7000 Series Alloys



    This article might shed light on the alloy controversy and I love my original 25 year old Cove Stiffee welded from 6013.

  64. #64
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    Never seen a bike made from 6013, interesting...

    I know that 6061 vs 7005, main things were, going back to the old days (not necesarily applicable currently), 6061, fairly strong, fairly light, but (relatively for alu) easy to weld. 7005 stronger, but much harder to weld, but the big thing was compared to 6061 at the time (early 90's when easton came out with varilite/program/elite was that it could be butted (more easily/practically than 6061) so that gave A) weight savings, b) possibly ore important, the tubes could be tuned from the butting to give the ride you wanted, so you could make aluminium feel more like steel/ti and not be a harsh butt smash.
    Easton then solved the welding/cracking issues with 7000SC (scandium isn't any stonger/lighter, its just is much easier to weld and retains it's strengh after the weld)
    All the gear and no idea.

  65. #65
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    I recall Giant Bicycle one of the big playas in the industry introduced 6013 in the start of the 1990s. It was the original ALUXX SL alloy distinguished from the moderate priced ALUXX frames which was 6061. I don't know why it disappeared. Only conclude it was a cost issue. Here is a spec sheet about flag poles!


    6013 Aluminum

  66. #66
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    ahhhh... CU-92, I always wonder what it actually was, now i knowbly, 6013!
    All the gear and no idea.

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    Yes! Also called alcalyte. CU-92 pretty alliterative but copper not in 6000 series??

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