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Thread: Surly Krampus

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding View Post
    Two questions (not sure if these have been answered already):

    1) Is surly going to be fully prepared to meet the demand for rims and tires (beyond complete bikes)?

    2) How much lighter will a Knard wheel be than a comparable 50mm 26" rim and Larry tired wheel?
    2. Which Larry? if the Knard is 820g claimed and a Larry is 1300-1400g, your talking aleast a pound per wheel since a 50mm 26er will weight less than its 29er bigger brother.

  2. #302
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    JJT... Thanks for the review. I think you helped me make my mind up. I will be getting one. I have two 9'ers (ss & geared) and a fat bike, the Krampus sounds like the best of both worlds. I don't need another bike, but I need the Krampus.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacons View Post
    ...I don't need another bike, but I need the Krampus.
    This!

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitrousjunky View Post
    Have you confirmed this???? Mikesee- can you tell us if it fits in a Salsa CroMoto Grande Fork??
    I've not, but based on details elsewhere and my own steed it appears there is *plenty* of room.

    Picture attached is with a chubby Nobby Nic on a Stan's Flow in the Salsa Cro Moto Grande 20mm TA rigid fork - massive room in all material directions for a Knard/Rabbit Farkinghohl
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Surly Krampus-el_mar_rigid_mtbr_size.jpg  


  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding View Post
    Two questions (not sure if these have been answered already):

    1) Is surly going to be fully prepared to meet the demand for rims and tires (beyond complete bikes)?

    2) How much lighter will a Knard wheel be than a comparable 50mm 26" rim and Larry tired wheel?
    1) I doubt it. It takes A LOT of cash to preorder this stuff from Asia. Long, long in advance. Payments have long gone out, before our response was measured probably.
    2) Yeah, see how much lighter these tires are. A 50mm 26" rim, with luck, is a tiny bit lighter than what Krampus has. But then you have an under-rimmed Larry vs a full-on 29+.

    Spokes will be a bit heavier on 29". But who's counting grams on a steel fat bike? Go and have China make you a carbon frame and 622x50mm carbon rims. Carbon forks can be had off the shelf that fit.
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  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
    1) I doubt it. It takes A LOT of cash to preorder this stuff from Asia. Long, long in advance. Payments have long gone out, before our response was measured probably.
    2) Yeah, see how much lighter these tires are. A 50mm 26" rim, with luck, is a tiny bit lighter than what Krampus has. But then you have an under-rimmed Larry vs a full-on 29+.

    Spokes will be a bit heavier on 29". But who's counting grams on a steel fat bike? Go and have China make you a carbon frame and 622x50mm carbon rims. Carbon forks can be had off the shelf that fit.
    1) That's kind of what I was thinking. Not sure the average Joe like me will have the opportunity to easily pick up a rim and a couple tires...

    2) I'm really eager to build a wheel for the front of my Jones. I'm not really keen on this setup with a 100mm front hub, but I think it will be great on the Jones with the wide hub. And like I said, I guess I'll have to see if and when the parts are available. I'm really looking forward to doing this.

  7. #307
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    For those that have test ridden the bike, how bad (slow) do you think the tires will be on the road compared to a normal sized XCish tire?

    My local trails are about 13 miles from my house. When I want a long ride, I often ride my bike to the trails and don't mind the extra resistance from the tires. I can't imagine riding to the trails on a Pugsley, but would the Krampus be closer to a normal 29 inch tire? Or closer to a riding a Pugsley?
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  8. #308
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    I think it depends on pressure. I did a 20km ride to the trail last sunday with pressure a little over 1 bar, which was OK, I'd say a little slower as a 1.7 bar Racing Ralph 2.4. On the way back I lowered pressure (and I was tired) and then the 6km on road was a little harder, I'd say Pugly with high pressure

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  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonaSS View Post
    For those that have test ridden the bike, how bad (slow) do you think the tires will be on the road compared to a normal sized XCish tire?

    My local trails are about 13 miles from my house. When I want a long ride, I often ride my bike to the trails and don't mind the extra resistance from the tires. I can't imagine riding to the trails on a Pugsley, but would the Krampus be closer to a normal 29 inch tire? Or closer to a riding a Pugsley?
    Hubert rode JJT's sample shortly on the streets and reported no noticable drag compared to his typical XC bikes. This was with the tires at 1 bar.

    Although I know where you're coming from, but even with really slow tires, mathemetically, the 13 miles only take you maybe a minute or 2 extra. Not really something to worry over. Hardly worth inflating before the ride out to the trails even, you'll spend more time pumping than you save time in getting there. Tire life expectancy might make it worth it though.

    When Hubert rode his Pugsley with Endomorphs next to my 29x2.35" Big Apples on average pavement, a roll-out side by side couldn't determin a real difference either.
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  10. #310
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    The first Fat Bike that's held any interest for me. Look out bank account!

  11. #311
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    No XXL. So bummed out...

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    I dont know if this has been mentioned before, even tho the knard looks pretty comfy but i would love to run a large marge lite up front with a BL using a moonlander fork or any that would allow it... Has this been verified ?? if its possible with the forks currently on the market ?

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    Kinda hoped the tires would look well taller for more cushion!

    Tread pattern looks very much Racing Ralph which even in 2.25 form makes for a good all condition tire amazingly so thumbs up there.

    Building up a cheap 29er HT rigid soon, I'll have a Carbon Exotic 29er from in the front, I'm presuming that rim and tire will fit in that fork ??

    If so cheap upgrade when available, ( cheap ish I guess )

    Likely get a full bike for next winter, hoping they expand on the tire range, maybe 3.2's or something!!

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refujiado View Post
    I dont know if this has been mentioned before, even tho the knard looks pretty comfy but i would love to run a large marge lite up front with a BL using a moonlander fork or any that would allow it... Has this been verified ?? if its possible with the forks currently on the market ?
    There is nothing that will stop you from mounting a Moonlander fork on the front of a Krampus. You'll have to rebuild the front wheel with a 135mm hub and get a new headset, but other than that it shouldn't be an issue.

    You can check the length of both forks to ensure you won't be raising or lowering the front end much.
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    I use the Carver O’Beast Carbon fork on my Mukluck. Should work great on a 29er. Very smooth and 525 grams!

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  16. #316
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    Demo ride

    The Salsa / Surly demo van made a stop at one of our local trails last week. They showed up with a wide variety of big tired bikes that included the Krampus. I was able to ride a large Krampus for over an hour on a mix of different dry/loose over hard pack dirt and rock. Moderate climbs and fast downhill that has a mix of chunk and smooth pump track style sections.

    The rider: I have been riding MTB for around 23 years. Started out on a rigid bike but I am sure happy with the choices in FS we have today. I prefer riding downhill vs. uphill but like to earn my turns. I currently own two 26" AM/FR bikes and one rigid 29" offroad touring bike. The rigid is too stiff and not aggressive enough for the trail riding I do. It has become a gravel/paved road bike. I am interested in adding a simple and fun trail bike to the quiver so I wanted to try a Krampus.

    The fit: I liked the fit of the bike overall. Large frame had good stand over (32 inseam) and roomy cockpit with the ETT. This particular bike had 780mm bars and the stem was too long at around 80-90mm. (I would have set it up with a 70mm stem and 750mm wide bars.) Bottom bracket height was good for rocky technical climbing and I did not have any pedal strikes during the ride. I did not notice any toe overlap with the front tire.

    Climbing: The bike was good in or out of the saddle for climbing. Out of the saddle it was very comfortable and balanced. It was easy to put the power down and the front of the bike felt very solid. The back of the bike did allow for some noticeable flex. There was chain to tire rub in the lowest two gears of the 1x10 when cranking out of the saddle. I could also get the disc brake to chirp on the rotor with the frame flex. (yes, the wheel was tight.)

    The gearing was a little too high (in my opinion) with the EDIT: 1x10, 32x36 and the tall tire combo. I can climb the same trails with a 32x36 gearing and a 27" tall tire without my knees wanting to explode. Tire slippage was minimal on the steep climbs over dry/loose hard pack. The tires felt like oversized Racing Ralph's. They rolled well and had plenty of traction for cornering and climbing for the conditions. I have no idea how they will work in wet conditions.

    The ride: On smooth trails the Krampus feels like an overgrown BMX bike. With the seat slammed down it wanted to play on the pump track sections of trail. Unfortunately, that is where the party started and ended for me. The rough sections of trail with rocks and braking bumps were absolute torture. Even at lower speeds and tire pressures as low as I dared, the Krampus delivers a wrist jolting ride. The ride is smoother than my 29" rigid with 2.25 Rapid Robs on 30mm rims, but the Krampus is still a rigid bike. The Knard tire only has so much give before you find the limits at the rim. It has nowhere near the amount of squish a 26 x 3.8/4.7 FAT tire has.

    It does not handle like a fat bike though. It rides more like a regular 29" bike than a fat bike. The only oddity was the steering when going into a tight corner. When starting into the corner, there would be a point where the bike would suddenly "fall in" and require a correction. The steering in a tight corner is something a rider would need to adjust to on this bike.

    So where does the Krampus fit in? For me, this would be an urban assault vehicle or a bike packing rig. For trail riding I think it offers less than I could get with a good 29" hard tail, 35mm rims, 2.4 tires and a 120-140mm suspension fork. If a good suspension fork was available for the Krampus...

    Thanks to the great Surly/Salsa guys that put on the demo.
    Last edited by bubba13; 08-28-2012 at 09:17 AM.
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  17. #317
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    If there is tire chain interference with a single that pretty much rules out a double unless you use their MWod setup or something similar. I don't know why they are stuck on a narrow BB. Go 83 with a 150 hub and things could probably be worked out. I'm riding a 32 lb long travel 29er right now and 32/36 is not low enough. I can push it but it hurts sometimes and if the trail gets really steep and technical it's going to be a problem. We aren't all 150lb racer boys.

    Rigid is rigid and these tires aren't really big enough to make up for the handicap. But there is probably a market for this size and maybe down the road they will add a little bit bigger tire with more tread and we will really have something to work with then.

    It's a step in the right direction and no one else is heading that way. So props for that.
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  18. #318
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    According to what I've seen they're probably going to switch to a 1X? setup which should eliminate some or all of the interference.

    I'm thrilled that it's not a full-on Fat Bike. I would probably use it mostly as a winter training bike anyway as I kind of think the idea of riding a fat bike as your "normal" bike is pretty dumb. That's just me though and I ride a rigid singlespeed nearly 100% of the time. Also, I'm closer to 200 lbs. than 150lbs.

  19. #319
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    Any idea on if Surly is going to make any other tires in a 29x3.0 size? I'm sure they will, guess I'm just asking which tires and when (if anyone has any ideas).

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    QBP seems to own the market with Surly and 45 North, so I assume we will see a low resistance tire (read: Black Floyd) and medium duty for the loose stuff... sand, snow (read: Endo, Larry) to fit the Rabbit Holes.
    I'd love to see more tires companies step in to a 3~4" tire. QBP makes some great stuff, but inventories of these massive tires in the past has been a challenge. And prices are very high.

  21. #321
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    It's what I wish mine could have been....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tikesdad View Post
    It's the bike I've been day dreaming about.
    Man,......now there's a large tire! I had been daydreaming the same thing years ago. Living with a standard 26" hardtail with SnoCats for winter riding had me cooking up notions for the next evolution. The incremental step that came to mind was 29" SnoCats and a new frame.

    I asked Walt to build me up a 29er in 2005 with a target of giving me the most tire clearance he could in the rear triangle. I found a set of SnoCat 29er hoops, which at the time would have afforded me more float than my 26" version. I wanted to easily accomodate the largest 29" tire available mounted on a 44mm rim. At the time that was a WTB Exiwolf. Walt got creative with the chainstay yoke, much like the Krampus has, and came through in spades. A year or so later Greg at Speedway introduced his 50mm Uma 29er rims, and I could still easily fit 2.4 Racing Ralphs or 2.4 Ardent tires on the new rims. Walt was pretty forward thinking in that respect, all's good on version 2.










    And a pic of the area behind the BB.




    Still having some room to spare though I've been watching to see where tire sizes would evolve to eventually, hoping to see something in the 2.6 range. When news of the 3.0 tire came out I was so jazzed, and immediately went to see if my frame would accomodate the volume...only to be denied, it was not to be. It'll fit in the fork, and it'll clear under my seatstay bridge, but there's just not enough clearance for the casing's width in the rear.

    I've been super pleased riding the bike as is, but wondering now if I should pull the plug, as the Krampus is ideally what I was after seven years ago. I've got the fatbike angle covered already, but would dig this new flavor. I saw the mention of a 26" variant in a 3.8, so how about it Surly, can you develop a slightly leaner version that many of us with existing bikes could use?
    Last edited by EndoRando; 09-18-2012 at 08:53 PM.
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    well endo, at least you'll have some new options for your front tire. Bike's lookin good!

    So what's the word on availability of pre-order bikes and parts? Does qbp list a number of pre-order frames, etc. available so you can get a sense of when all the bikes on the boat have been claimed?

    I'm still thinking about this one as I write my dissertation. Wouldn't be nice to have my reward for completion arrive just as I finish? But my laptop is also acting funny, so if an emergency replacement is required, not enough cash for both, so I'm still on the fence about ordering my own krampus.

  23. #323
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    I have a feeling the Knard is just the start of something very nice.. I met the guys of Surly at Eurobike this week and they happened to have the final yoke for the Krampus in their bags.

    it seems the frame/rim/tire/tube will be available end november, begin december. The complete bike will be shipped with a Shimano Zee (single) crank, but the Surly off set crank should be the solution for (against) tire rub. Not sure when the completes will be available.

    Ow, that Walt is very very nice!!

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  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJT View Post
    I have a feeling the Knard is just the start of something very nice..
    By that I hope you're hinting that there may be a Knard little brutha! AFAIK no one has anything in 29" larger than a 2.4, and to now jump to a 3.0....well, you know...it requires a new breed of frame! If not Surly with a narrower Knard, come on somebody! Bring on a 2.6 Racing Ralph!

    Thanks for the compliment JJT, Walt nailed the fit as it's the only frame I've ever had welded up to my dimensions.
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  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndoRando View Post
    By that I hope you're hinting that there may be a Knard little brutha! AFAIK no one has anything in 29" larger than a 2.4, and to now jump to a 3.0....well, you know...it requires a new breed of frame! If not Surly with a narrower Knard, come on somebody! Bring on a 2.6 Racing Ralph!

    Thanks for the compliment JJT, Walt nailed the fit as it's the only frame I've ever had welded up to my dimensions.
    That's a sweet bike for sure. I'll bet if you talk to Walt, he would be able to modify your frame to fit the new tire. It's probably time for a repaint anyway!

    Just sayin!

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJT View Post
    I have a feeling the Knard is just the start of something very nice.. I met the guys of Surly at Eurobike this week and they happened to have the final yoke for the Krampus in their bags.

    it seems the frame/rim/tire/tube will be available end november, begin december. The complete bike will be shipped with a Shimano Zee (single) crank, but the Surly off set crank should be the solution for (against) tire rub. Not sure when the completes will be available.

    Ow, that Walt is very very nice!!

    Hmm... That yoke might just solve the flex problem at the back end of the prototype frames.
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  27. #327
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    Question: Will the Krampus work with 180mm or 200mm rotors?

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    There is nothing that will stop you from mounting a Moonlander fork on the front of a Krampus. You'll have to rebuild the front wheel with a 135mm hub and get a new headset, but other than that it shouldn't be an issue.

    You can check the length of both forks to ensure you won't be raising or lowering the front end much.
    Surly has stated that, unfortunately, the Krampus fork is 120mm suspension corrected, which I would imagine is much longer than either the Moonlander fork, or even the 468mm Enabler fork.

    Bummer..... would've been perfect...

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScaryJerry View Post
    Surly has stated that, unfortunately, the Krampus fork is 120mm suspension corrected, which I would imagine is much longer than either the Moonlander fork, or even the 468mm Enabler fork.

    Bummer..... would've been perfect...
    I'd advise a message to Surly directly. They are still working on this, as far as I can see.
    Direct information from the horses mouth is better than opinion from internet posters. I hope to get a Krampus frameset in a few months. I am not planning to get a suspension fork yet, but have not ruled it out either.

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    It will be interesting to see what the story is with >1 chainring. Unfortunately, where I ride there are long steep climbs and Alfine 8 and 1x10 aren't going to work for me, Rohloff is too expensive and Alfine 11 seems likely to break especially with the low ratio needed for the big wheels.

    Surly say either space out the chainrings and/or remove cog(s) at the rear, but how far and how many to get clearance??? If we can get away with removing just the 11T cog from a 9/10 speed cassette and/or spacing out the rings a few mm with spacers under the RH cup all is good, oherwise things start becoming awkward (= fatbike problem) again.

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    They should really just bite the bullet and run an 83mm bb and a 150mm rear and get rid of 90% of the issues. And be ahead in the game in the end.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScaryJerry View Post
    Surly has stated that, unfortunately, the Krampus fork is 120mm suspension corrected, which I would imagine is much longer than either the Moonlander fork, or even the 468mm Enabler fork.

    Bummer..... would've been perfect...
    Ya a 120mm 29er fork is going to be somewhere around 545mm long. The Moonlander fork is 447mm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    It will be interesting to see what the story is with >1 chainring. Unfortunately, where I ride there are long steep climbs and Alfine 8 and 1x10 aren't going to work for me, Rohloff is too expensive and Alfine 11 seems likely to break especially with the low ratio needed for the big wheels.
    I've got an Alfine 11 IGH 29er MTB geared 32T x 23T that's used for bikepacking and MTBing and it's surviving without any issues so far [~9 months].

    The low gears on the Alfine 11 and Alfine 8 are roughly the same. The A11 gives you a bit more top end if they are geared the same.

    You can get 30T rings for 104 BCD cranks and combined with a 36T cog on the cassette it gives you a pretty nice gear range from a 1 x 10 setup.

    I'm running a 1 x 9 on my FS MTB and the 1 x 11 IGH on my 29er. I'm seeing 1 x 9/10/11 MTB setups more and more. One of the discussion points in the MTB press is that companies are shying away from 1 x 10/11 setups because they are afraid folks might not buy a bike with what they perceive as an unsuitable gear range. I can see the folks at Surly look at the clearance issue and look at the 1 x 10 solution and decide to go for it despite the potential negative reaction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupboy View Post
    I've not, but based on details elsewhere and my own steed it appears there is *plenty* of room.

    Picture attached is with a chubby Nobby Nic on a Stan's Flow in the Salsa Cro Moto Grande 20mm TA rigid fork - massive room in all material directions for a Knard/Rabbit Farkinghohl
    How is the 20mm Salsa?

  35. #335
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    Want to know when a complete front rim and tire will be available. Thinking current fork has the clearance for trying the larger tread.

  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by crux View Post
    Want to know when a complete front rim and tire will be available. Thinking current fork has the clearance for trying the larger tread.
    From the Surly Blog:

    "We're looking at December or so on Krampus framesets, Rabbit Hole rims, and Knard (pronounced "nard") tires. We don't have MSRP amounts on those individually just yet, but we will in a month or so. The complete bikes will be available in early Spring of 2013. Those will probably go for about $1950."

    I understand that they'll be selling the frames with 2 rims and 2 tires so you may not be able to buy a tire + rim a la carte unless they've got lots more than they need for the frames on hand. Ultimately they want to make sure anyone who gets a frame has some tires and rims to complete the build.
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  37. #337
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    Any guestimates or calculations on the footprint of a reasonably inflated Knard compared to a 3.8ish tire? I'm wondering how the Krampus will hold up on sand.

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    You should be able to get a few more cm out of the tire footprint when you air it down for sand use. When I run about 6~8psi on my Larry's, the footprint is over 4". Not certain how low of a PSI you can run on the Knard though. (~15psi???)
    I suspect the bike will do very well on hard-pack sand, but anything less than that, she'll likely wash out.

  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSThompson View Post
    Any guestimates or calculations on the footprint of a reasonably inflated Knard compared to a 3.8ish tire? I'm wondering how the Krampus will hold up on sand.
    Won't be as good, thinking this will make a good all condition general use bike without the need for suspension and fast enough rolling.


    Still be better than the 26 x 2.3" tyres for any sand I do run into, but there generally just patches here so ideal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I've got an Alfine 11 IGH 29er MTB geared 32T x 23T that's used for bikepacking and MTBing and it's surviving without any issues so far [~9 months].

    You can get 30T rings for 104 BCD cranks and combined with a 36T cog on the cassette it gives you a pretty nice gear range from a 1 x 10 setup.
    Thanks Vik. However, I think I'm going to need a low gear of at worst ~20" for some of the longer climbs, and lower wouldn't hurt; this isn't really achievable with 1x10. I can live with a fairly low top gear (say 75"), so maybe can get away with something like 36x24 (or 22) with 15-36 (8/10 cogs) and the rings moved out a few mm. (I'd be using square taper cranks I already have to keep the Q as low as possible.)

    It's good to hear your Alfine 11 is still holding up, however, I think I'd want more like 30x23T (or 24T or 26T) to get a useable gear range with the bigger tyres. Unfortunately I'm a spinner, but on the positive side I virtually never break anything. Still, the number of people in the IGH forum who've complained about these hubs is rather discouraging.

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    Oh I want one! When will these be available?
    It's easy to make a buck, it's much harder to make a difference."

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    is the BB standard width or a little wider?

  43. #343
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    From Blog | Surly Bikes

    "4. What kinda parts does it work with?

    The Krampus will use a 73mm bottom bracket, 100mm front wheel spacing, and 135mm rear wheel spacing -"

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    ^ True dat, but there are clearance issues with multiple chainrings so it's important to read the rest of the points on Surly's blog - and to wait and see what works once the Krampuses are out there.

    What it really means is that normal stuff will work on the Krampus frame *provided* you are not going to use the 3.0" Knard tyres, but that if you are thngs are more complicated.

  45. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    What it really means is that normal stuff will work on the Krampus frame *provided* you are not going to use the 3.0" Knard tyres, but that if you are thngs are more complicated.
    That's funny. And does seem to be what they are saying to a degree.

    Speaking hypothetically, from what I have read, it should work with a single ring or possibly with a setup that allows you to run a small ring in the middle position. IE MWood which come in 20/33 and 22/36. I don't know if the MWood will work on anything but their crankset and hopefully you can get it in 22/33.

    Another thing you could try, which might help, and likely won't be Surly sanctioned, is to run a BB for a 83mm shell and use some spacers which will allow the rings to move to the right a bit more and maybe just enough. Chain line in big cogs might be a bit off but should work.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  46. #346
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    ^ I'm afraid I don't like the idea of (exensive, high Q) offset cranksets, though they would make things easier. If I can get minimal tyre clearance by removing one or two cogs from a 10 speed cassette and moving out some low Q square taper cranks a few mm with spacers and/or a slightly longer axle, then this would a) be better for me ergonomically and b) also work with a complete 10 speed cassette when narrower tyres and lighter wheels were used.

    This is all theoretical though... :-)

    BTW, Surly did say their new OD crankset would be available with 33x22T rings.

  47. #347
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    Any of you guys see the picture floating around Facebook of a Krampus with a suspension fork?

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    No clue what it is yet, nobody is spilling those beans..


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    ^ If there's any clearance there sure isn't much! The paint on the inside of those fork legs won't last long. I'd have about the same amount of clearance on my gen1 Fargo fork; the wheel would most likely turn, but not without some drag.

  50. #350
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    Why does anyone NEED suspension with a tire that big? If you need suspension, then run a normal tire. No? Maybe I'm missing something.

  51. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Speed View Post
    Why does anyone NEED suspension with a tire that big? If you need suspension, then run a normal tire. No? Maybe I'm missing something.
    Because, why not?

  52. #352
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    I have a fat bike and personally, I would love to have a front suspension. Yes, I can air down the tire to get a desired "cush" but what I give up by airing down is steering turn-in/responsiveness. I live in an area where there are a lot of heavily rooted trails and technical switchbacks that require a bit faster steering response. Yes, I can ride my niners for this sort of biking, but I give equal time to all my bikes.
    I am looking very forward to owning a Krampus. If it proves to be too rigid for my biking style, I will look at front suspension options (if they ever develop).

  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Speed View Post
    Why does anyone NEED suspension with a tire that big? If you need suspension, then run a normal tire. No? Maybe I'm missing something.
    Speaking as a fat bike owner running 4" tires there is no mistaking the fact you are on a rigid bike. Suspension and wide rubber are not the same thing and they can be mutually beneficial as can be seen by all the front suspension mods used to soften up existing fat bikes.
    Safe riding,

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  54. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Speed View Post
    Why does anyone NEED suspension with a tire that big? If you need suspension, then run a normal tire. No? Maybe I'm missing something.
    You're missing something. Besides gears

    If your deal is to concur the limitations of your machine then ss rigid is your ride.

    If you want to be able to ride faster and harder terrain with less effort then large diameter fat tires, suspension and gears are for you.

    Think of how well a MX motorcycle would do in a race with one gear and no suspension. Or with gears and suspension but running with bicycle tires. Same diff to a lesser degree on a fs fat bike.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  55. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post

    If you want to be able to ride faster and harder terrain with less effort then large diameter fat tires, suspension and gears are for you.
    Or one could simply fly an airplane over the same terrain, if one really wanted to be faster with less effort. Just sayin', to each his own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skrufryder View Post
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  56. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemhed View Post
    Or one could simply fly an airplane over the same terrain, if one really wanted to be faster with less effort. Just sayin', to each his own.
    You are completely missing the entire concept.

    Like with many things it's about making a better machine for the job. Some people don't like better machines. Surly didn't come up with the idea of fat tires because they saw someone else doing it and thought it looked cool.

    Choice is one thing. Measurable improvements are another. Where do you draw the line when you think an improvement is just not for you? You can cut down a tree with a stone axe. Chainsaws work much better. For me anyhow
    Last edited by modifier; 09-18-2012 at 09:15 AM.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

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    When I owned my Pugsley, there were definitely times that I pondered ponying up for a DUC32 or whatever, mainly as I was bombing down rocky trails and struggling to keep my hands on the handlebars. Fatbike tires are totally not the same as a suspension- using both in conjunction is probably a very sweet setup.

  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Speed View Post
    Why does anyone NEED suspension with a tire that big? If you need suspension, then run a normal tire. No? Maybe I'm missing something.
    Need?....WANT!

    The first thing I said to the Surly/Salsa demo guys after the Krampus ride was "this thing needs front suspension!"

    It all boils down to what you want and how you plan to use the bike. The Krampus geometry is set up to handle aggressive riding. I agree that this could be accomplished with one of the currently available 29er hard tails. (Yelli Screamy, Honzo, etc...) The main difference is the Krampus / Knard combo is not as harsh as a comparable 29er with a 2.4 tire. Add a suspension fork to the Krampus and those high speed bumps could actually be fun.
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  59. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    You are completely missing the entire concept.

    Like with many things it's about making a better machine
    It wouldn't be the first time I've missed the point. I'm all for people making their choices. Surly has made their choice by offering the Krampus and people have been saying woulda and shoulda and what if-ing for 15 pages now, but I did say to each his own. Where I live everybody rides around on quads and ATVs and would scoff at the idea of a mere bicycle being the better machine for anything. Cheers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Skrufryder View Post
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  60. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post
    Need?....WANT!

    The first thing I said to the Surly/Salsa demo guys after the Krampus ride was "this thing needs front suspension!"

    It all boils down to what you want and how you plan to use the bike. The Krampus geometry is set up to handle aggressive riding. I agree that this could be accomplished with one of the currently available 29er hard tails. (Yelli Screamy, Honzo, etc...) The main difference is the Krampus / Knard combo is not as harsh as a comparable 29er with a 2.4 tire. Add a suspension fork to the Krampus and those high speed bumps could actually be fun.
    not to mention the awesome traction in tight turns over various terrain. Suspension forks help a bit with traction, but suspension plus fat tire equals screaming through those slippery rooty off camber turns.

  61. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemhed View Post
    It wouldn't be the first time I've missed the point. I'm all for people making their choices. Surly has made their choice by offering the Krampus and people have been saying woulda and shoulda and what if-ing for 15 pages now, but I did say to each his own. Where I live everybody rides around on quads and ATVs and would scoff at the idea of a mere bicycle being the better machine for anything. Cheers!
    I guess I needed to say 'better human powered machine' and qualify 'for rough terrain'.

    Riding on smooth swoopy trail a few days go on my 3 speed short travel bike with a 650b front wheel I was not thinking 'I wish I was on my fat bike'. But I only ride that trail a couple of times a year. So maybe only 90% of the time I ride I prefer my FS Fat.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  62. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch rides a SS View Post
    I just realized that I really don't like the headtube decal on this Krampus. Please tell me they are sticking with what's on their older bikes...like this

  63. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch rides a SS View Post
    I just realized that I really don't like the headtube decal on this Krampus. Please tell me they are sticking with what's on their older bikes...like this
    I would assume that when these are available, they will come with the trusted and reassuring S emblem on the head tube. Just to cut costs, they probably just put that cheap sticker decal on the front of the promo models.

  64. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    Because, why not?
    Couldn't the same be said the other way?

    OK, I come from a different place in cycling and I'm an admitted Retro Grouch. I'm 50 years old and ride a "very modern" Ti 29'er hardtail with a carbon rigid fork.. oh, it's singlespeed too. I've ridden more or less that way for 15+ years. I hate working on my bike when I could be riding it and I enjoy riding my singlespeeds more than any other bike. Additionally, I've never understood why you'd buy, what seems to me to be the most purpose-made bike I can think of and not use it for snow, sand, mud, etc.

    So, when people say they want to put suspension on a Fat bike to ride it on trail, why wouldn't you just ride a bike made for same instead of adding weight to an already fat or morbidly obese Fat bike? Like I said, I must be missing something.

    Again, not trying to be a troll or purposely argumentative but I just don't get it. In any case... the Krampus looks like a really great bike and if I get one, it'll end up rigid and single like my other bikes.

  65. #365
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    I've written about this so many times I don't feel like going fully into it again, at this moment.

    Just read this thing I wrote and maybe you will understand. If not I'm certainly not offended.

    Reader's Rides: Custom-fabricated full-suspension fatbike | Dirt Rag Magazine
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  66. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Speed View Post
    So, when people say they want to put suspension on a Fat bike to ride it on trail, why wouldn't you just ride a bike made for same instead of adding weight to an already fat or morbidly obese Fat bike? Like I said, I must be missing something.
    What you are missing here is how much fun a Fat Bike is. I bought my obese, 32lb., FB for winter snow and mud riding. What I came to realize is this bike is not just about snow or mud. I find excuses to ride it everywhere. It's a blast (and one hell of a conversation starter).
    The Krampus looks equally fun, and that's exactly why I will own it. Will the Krampus need a front suspension? We'll see...

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    Another shot of the Krampus
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Surly Krampus-krampus.jpg  


  68. #368
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    What you don't understand is the fun factor that comes in riding a fatbike on trails. I'm not out there to race or set personal records, I ride for enjoyment and the thrill of challenges. So, a fatbike brings a different challenge as well. Also, refer to the post above.

  69. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbasinger View Post
    Another shot of the Krampus
    I just love that green metalflake. Reminds me of the 1970s.

    Edit: I will build a Krampus with the rigid fork. I will also eagerly wait to see any suspension fork, to see how much it weighs, and how much it deflects. A suspension fork with sliders that long and a bridge could be heavy.

  70. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbasinger View Post
    Another shot of the Krampus
    Jah bless you! My good, good man. A million thanks.
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  71. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbasinger View Post
    Another shot of the Krampus
    I'd still go out with her even it she does have a weird name.

    There must be a bike in that picture some where
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  72. #372
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    nice bike stand

  73. #373
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    what is the BB height on the krampus? and will it be a pedal striker with 2.4 tires on the bike instead of the knards?

  74. #374
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    This bike would be perfect with a 1 x 7 via a SS hub.

    Anyone know what the CS length is?

  75. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    There must be a bike in that picture some where
    ^ My thoughts exactly. I did see it eventually but there were other green things that distracted me at first...

  76. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbasinger View Post
    Another shot of the Krampus
    That's a beautiful thing!

    I guess I need to ride one at some point. Where I live in Germany it's enough to ride the bike I ride.

    Here's a photo of the "real" Krampus although not nearly as interesting. This happens around the region of Germany where I live so I get to see them every year.


    If you don't already know what a Krampus is, here's the info.
    Krampus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  77. #377
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    a few from dirt demo

    Fav bike i put between my legs at dirt demo...

    krampus dont give a sh#t, krampus just rolls over it, krampus dont care.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Surly Krampus-096.jpg  

    Surly Krampus-098.jpg  

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    Read my BLOG!

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  78. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascarlarkinyar View Post
    what is the BB height on the krampus? and will it be a pedal striker with 2.4 tires on the bike instead of the knards?
    That would be missing the whole point of the bike.

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    ^ Agreed.

    ...and until Surly finalise things and post the geometry nobody knows what it is, and pedal strike also depends on where and how you ride and what sort of pedals you have, etc. Some people don't have problems with low BBs, and others do with high BBs. So, basically a pointless question.

  80. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Speed View Post
    That's a beautiful thing!

    I guess I need to ride one at some point. Where I live in Germany it's enough to ride the bike I ride.

    Here's a photo of the "real" Krampus although not nearly as interesting. This happens around the region of Germany where I live so I get to see them every year.


    If you don't already know what a Krampus is, here's the info.
    Krampus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Sometimes Krampus appears with a sack or a washtub strapped to his back; this is to cart off evil children for drowning, eating, or transport to Hell."

    This is the best line.

    HOW AM I GOING TO BE ABLE TO WAIT UNTIL THIS DAMN BIKE IS AVAILABLE??? I WANT ONE NOWWWWWW.

  81. #381
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    I vote for the Surly Krampus as the most interesting new bike of the year. I vote for Christmas Krampus as the creepiest Christmas holiday tradition of all time!
    Quote Originally Posted by Skrufryder View Post
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  82. #382
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    Great bike, I think I will get one. I want to use it for off-road XC wilderness touring (as well as other things) but I notice that the fork has no attachment points. That's a bit of a bummer, maybe this is just the prototype and the final version will have more?

  83. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    ^ Agreed.

    ...and until Surly finalise things and post the geometry nobody knows what it is, and pedal strike also depends on where and how you ride and what sort of pedals you have, etc. Some people don't have problems with low BBs, and others do with high BBs. So, basically a pointless question.
    The geometry is posted on the surly website now

    I'm a little disappointed about the BBDrop: its only 60 mm - thats 8 mm less than the Karate Monkey which has 68 mm. I do not understand why the Krampuses BBDrop is so low

  84. #384
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    For those of you thinking of ordering without a test ride, does the long ETT have you thinking about which size to get? I'm 6'0 and the medium is prolly where I'd go.

  85. #385
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    Seeing as they are putting on a shorter stem on complete bikes, it seems they designed a longer ETT and shorter stem? Would this sway me from sticking with a meduim I normally ride, nope! A small would put way to much seat post sticking out for me.

    "60/70/80/90mm length"
    S/M/L/XL stem length?

  86. #386
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    A little confused on what headset they suggest using. So I should be buying an EC44 lower cup and then a 40 series zero stack upper cup? Would it matter if I used a tall stack or a low stack? I guess what I'm confused on is that everything I'm finding about the EC44 is that it is for a 1.5" crown race and the 40 series upper is for 1-1/8"....and I guess I have completely missed the fact that the fork is tapered (or has a 1-1/8" steerer and a 1.5" crown).

  87. #387
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    Correct, ZS upper, EC lower, both 44mm. Tall or Low stack is your choice, depends on your stem height needs.

    Per their website, its a straight 1 1/8" steerer so you need the proper lower crown plate.

    So a King Inset 7 with 1 1/8" crown plate would work great.

    Would have to piece together a Cane creek solution it looks like.

    Not sure about FSA EC44 options...

    With this strait steerer, a EC44/EC44 angleset will allow you to play with your HA a bit too.

  88. #388
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    Okay, so I'd need a 1-1/8" crown race that works with a 1.5" bearing and I'd be set (headset, lol)?

  89. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch rides a SS View Post
    Okay, so I'd need a 1-1/8" crown race that works with a 1.5" bearing and I'd be set (headset, lol)?
    But not just any race, you need one made for your headset. They are not universal or weren't last I checked.

  90. #390
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    Yes, I'm talking all Cane Creek stuff (I've used a few of their 40 series 1-1/8" headsets and love them).

  91. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    Great bike, I think I will get one. I want to use it for off-road XC wilderness touring (as well as other things) but I notice that the fork has no attachment points. That's a bit of a bummer, maybe this is just the prototype and the final version will have more?
    I think you are out of luck on fork brazes. All the brazes (and build kit) are now listed on their general website. Krampus | Bikes | Surly Bikes

  92. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerBergschreck View Post
    I'm a little disappointed about the BBDrop: its only 60 mm - thats 8 mm less than the Karate Monkey which has 68 mm. I do not understand why the Krampuses BBDrop is so low
    I am going to go out on a limb and say it's because the wheels are at least 8mm taller than a typical 29er.

    Also, there are positive characteristics of a low BB including stability and improved cornering. It's pretty difficult to just say "low is bad" or "high is good" it all depends on the bike and how you want it to ride.

    My bikes tend to have low-ish BBs and I run long cranks to boot. You get used to it.

  93. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch rides a SS View Post
    A little confused on what headset they suggest using. So I should be buying an EC44 lower cup and then a 40 series zero stack upper cup? Would it matter if I used a tall stack or a low stack? I guess what I'm confused on is that everything I'm finding about the EC44 is that it is for a 1.5" crown race and the 40 series upper is for 1-1/8"....and I guess I have completely missed the fact that the fork is tapered (or has a 1-1/8" steerer and a 1.5" crown).
    My Chromag 29er has a 44mm head tube, and I run the EC44 bottom and ZS44 top. However, that is for a 1.5" tapered fork.

    For a 1 1/8 fork I believe you would just use the complete zero stack (ZS) headset. Which is awesome for me as I'm always trying to get my stack height lower.

  94. #394
    @adelorenzo
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    OK, I just noticed that for some reason Surly recommends an EC44 bottom headset, you guys probably already caught that:

    Headset/Steertube 44mm ID. Recommend EC44 lower cups. Zero Stack on top is o.k.

    If I understand that right, with Cane Creek you would use the EC44 Conversion bottom assembly that reduces the diameter to fit a 1 1/8 fork. I still might try using a Zero Stack though unless someone can tell me why I wouldn't want to do that.

  95. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthony.delorenzo View Post
    Originally Posted by DerBergschreck

    I'm a little disappointed about the BBDrop: its only 60 mm - thats 8 mm less than the Karate Monkey which has 68 mm. I do not understand why the Krampuses BBDrop is so low


    I am going to go out on a limb and say it's because the wheels are at least 8mm taller than a typical 29er.

    Also, there are positive characteristics of a low BB including stability and improved cornering. It's pretty difficult to just say "low is bad" or "high is good" it all depends on the bike and how you want it to ride.

    My bikes tend to have low-ish BBs and I run long cranks to boot. You get used to it.
    Lower BB drop figure = Higher BB height. The combination of the large wheel size and low BB drop both add to the ride height, they dont conteract eachother (as a high BB drop number would do).

    I have a homebuilt 26"fatbike that only has about 20mmm of BB drop, so very high BB and riding position. The bike took some time to get used to riding, felt very wierd at first. Once I adjusted to it though, I found the high BB clearance to be usefull for pedaling through deep ruts in mud and snow and for generally eliminating pedal strike when riding over very rough terrain like volleyball size rocks, logs, tundra tussucks.

    Anthony- to put a forum user name with a face, that was me that was riding right with you at the end of lap one of past weekend arcticross, I got in a couple of warmdown laps in the open class after riding masters race.

  96. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    ^ Agreed.

    ...and until Surly finalise things and post the geometry nobody knows what it is, and pedal strike also depends on where and how you ride and what sort of pedals you have, etc. Some people don't have problems with low BBs, and others do with high BBs. So, basically a pointless question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding View Post
    That would be missing the whole point of the bike.

    some people need to have a more versatile bike. i already have too many bikes. but i did sell the pugsly due to the wide BB hurting my knees on long rides.
    if i can put 700c road wheels use it as a commuter and regular 2.4 rims/tires for single speed, then i could down size 2-3 bikes.

    not a pointless question if putting regular 29er rims/tires is below 50mm drop.

  97. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascarlarkinyar View Post
    not a pointless question if putting regular 29er rims/tires is below 50mm drop.
    Huh? The BBDrop is indpendent from what tires you use. Its always the same.

    With 26" MTBs the bb drop was about 40-50 mm. Good 29ers have 60-68 - so I expected that Krampus as a 29+ would have about 70-80 mm BBDrop to improve further the "sitting *in* the bike" feeling. But unfortunately it doesn't.

  98. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayJay View Post
    I have a homebuilt 26"fatbike that only has about 20mmm of BB drop, so very high BB and riding position. The bike took some time to get used to riding, felt very wierd at first. Once I adjusted to it though, I found the high BB clearance to be usefull for pedaling through deep ruts in mud and snow and for generally eliminating pedal strike when riding over very rough terrain like volleyball size rocks, logs, tundra tussucks.
    Yes. I find the benefits of a high BB outweigh the drawbacks by a considerable amount.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  99. #399
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    From Surly:

    This would be a good place to mention that the rigid fork is 120mm suspension corrected.
    ascarlarkinyar,
    If you use the factory rigid fork, I think you should be able to run regular 29er wheels and have good ground clearance.

  100. #400
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    120mm suspension corrected with how much sag?
    The Karate Monkey fork is 15mm shorter and was supposed to be 80mm corrected.
    And the 3.0" tire takes up about 15mm of extra fork space.
    In my book, the krampus is only 120mm corrected if you stick in a 26" front wheel. Maybe not even a 3.0" tires.

    47mm fork offset, as is the world standard now. You've seen it on the rigid On-One and Redline Flight 29" models before. Krampus is soooo 2005 :-)
    I honestly feel Surly could and should have done this for 2005/6 not 2013. The were awere of the concept, also of longer offset forks, we'd discussed that all.
    It's still a great bike in 2013, but not better in any way then it would have been in 2006. OK, they will have learned a bit on tire design, but even an Endomorph in 29x3.0 will be a fine tire, compared to other offerings, right? I suppose pre-ordering a bunch will be less scary for them now that they've prepped the public to buy whatever cool concept they throw into the market :-)

    I want one, but I wanted it more 8 years ago.

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