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  1. #1
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    Just ordered an Advocate Cycles frame ...

    I just ordered an Advocate Cycles Seldom Seen Frame + fork for $350 (MSRP $1K). This is the drop-bar version. I convinced myself that with that kind of price reduction, it might be fun to build up a 27.5+ drop-bar steel-framed mountain/off-road touring bike.

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    It is at this point that I have to face up to the ugly inconvenient fact that I really have very little idea of what I am doing, so am very open to suggestions.

    I've been doing most of my "mountain biking" in the last few years on a drop-bar "adventure" road bike (also steel framed) with various off-road tires (up to 40mm), and find it more comfortable and enjoyable than my 10 year old Trek Fuel EX7, which has full suspension, primarily I think to compensate for the harsh aluminum frame.

    The geometry of this frame differs from the flat-bar version primarily in that the top tube is shorter. (The effective top tube is still longer than that of my off-road road bike, fwiw.).

    Here is what I need advice on (minimally):

    (a) Bars: The default is to go with drops, similar to what I have on the other bike. I tend to spend 90% of my time on the hoods in an off-road situation. Should I look at other options, like Jones bars, or butterfly trekking bars, etc?

    (b). Shifting: That other bike has Ultegra hydraulics and Di2 shifting, and I have come to appreciate the ergonomic non-suckiness. Those calipers are basically re-labled XT, and I probably would want to keep it at that level. If I get drops, is there a way to mix XT derailleurs with Ultegra "brifters"? (I know you can mix and match the Di2 version, but I'd probably want to keep mechanical shifting.) Is a 1X a better option with some freakishly huge cassette? Again thinking approximately XT or SLX level. I don't know anything about "boost" and its relevance to crank choices, Q-factor, etc.

    (c). Wheels: I want good solid robust wheels. My upper limit would be Chris Kings with aluminum rims (which I have on the other bike) but wouldn't mind keeping the price significantly lower at the expense of getting a solid mass-produced wheel-set. The frame will take 3.0" tires. I would like to run at least 2.8" wide tires to begin with.

    (d) Fork: I would like to have the option, eventually, of swapping the rigid fork for a 27.5+ compatible suspension fork of decent quality.

    This is going to be a leisurely California rainy season project, so there is no huge rush, fwiw.

  2. #2
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    As far as fork goes, looking at that frame it looks like it it a straight head tube. If it is straight (not tapered) it will be hard to find a decent quality suspension fork that will work with it. Not sure who all is still making straight steerer tube suspension forks, but you'll probably also need it to be boost for tire clearance purposes, which will eliminate some of the used straight steerer tube forks that might be available, since boost is relatively new.

    For wheels, WTB scraper rims are sort of the go-to, or Raceface Arc. Both of those are aluminum and available in 35mm, 40mm, and 45mm widths which can all accommodate plus tires. Hope pro 4 hubs are great and cheaper than Chris King hubs.

    I don't know if you can mix Shimano road and MTB group sets. I don't think you can though.

    Most crankets/chainrings you get have boost options now to get the chainline right.

    As for bars, I believe its Salsa that makes some drop bars that are angled quite a bit that are supposedly better for off road riding.
    Patrick

  3. #3
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    Thanks. That is worrying about the fork...

    This photo gives me a bit of hope:

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  4. #4
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    This is what I can recommend based on my 29+ drop-bar steel-framed mountain/off-road touring bike.

    Shimano's mountain and road components have a different pull ratio, so they're not compatible. Wolftooth makes an adapter called the tanpan that will allow you to use brifters with mountain derailleurs. SRAM components are generally compatible across lines. On my drop-bar bike I have a GX derailleur with Apex road shifters. I use BB7 brakes on that bike, but shimano hydraulics are so much better. Still, I live with the BB7s since they work and that's what the bike came with.

    For bars, Woodchipper drop bars work fine for me. Cowchippers might be a better gravel options, but Jones bars would also work if you get the right stem length. With an off-road drop bar, you get more control in the drops. You'll want to set up your drops high enough so the drops are your primary position. Google Guitar Ted or seek him on here, he wrote the bible of "dirt drops."

    Wheels: WTB Asym i35. Cheap, robust, and relatively light weight. Works for me with 3" wheels. I like DT Swiss 350 hubs. You're looking at $600-700 for a bombproof wheel, but not the lightest out there. Scrapers are heavier and more expensive. They're the standard for plus rims, but might be overkill if you're not planning on railing berms at very low pressure.

    Those are my thoughts. Drop bar mountain bike can be a versatile and a lot of fun. You're going to enjoy it,

  5. #5
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    Thanks.

    BTW Di2 road and mtn components can be mixed (as long as say both the front and back derailleur are XT). Not sure I want to spend that much money, but it might be worth it.

  6. #6
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    Looks like a 44mm headtube. Which would run a tapered suspension fork with a zs44/ec44 headset.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonm1211 View Post
    Looks like a 44mm headtube. Which would run a tapered suspension fork with a zs44/ec44 headset.
    For the closely related Advocate Hayduke, it says

    ZS44/28.6 upper and EC44/40 lower. Use EC44 cup with reducer plate for 1 1/8” straight steerers
    Unfortunately, for this frame, they don't list the detailed frame specs. I am hoping you are right and that it is the same story. The blue bike in the photo was a pre-production version, so it is not a guarantee.

  8. #8
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    just for a different drivetrain option... I set up my similar bike with 11 speed Campy Athena shifters which shift 9 speed Shimano cassettes with a Shimano rear derailleur. I'm using TRP Spyres discs and everything works great.

    I like the Ritchey Venturemax bars more than the Salsa bars. The Ritcheys have a shallower drop and a nice slight ergo bump in the drops for your palms.

    mike

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    Not much to add that hasn't already been said, but I'm looking forward to see how this comes together - keep us posted!
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonm1211 View Post
    Looks like a 44mm headtube. Which would run a tapered suspension fork with a zs44/ec44 headset.
    I'm pretty sure all their frames come with a 44mm headtube.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by senor_mikey View Post
    just for a different drivetrain option... I set up my similar bike with 11 speed Campy Athena shifters which shift 9 speed Shimano cassettes with a Shimano rear derailleur. I'm using TRP Spyres discs and everything works great.

    I like the Ritchey Venturemax bars more than the Salsa bars. The Ritcheys have a shallower drop and a nice slight ergo bump in the drops for your palms.

    mike
    Woah! That is a great idea. I like my Athena 11-speed shifters FAR more than I like Shimano's mechanical shifters. (I really hate the lateral motion of the Shimano brake levers -- enough to drive me to Di2.) Also thanks for the Ritchey Venturemax bar suggestion. I have never seen that before.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    I'm pretty sure all their frames come with a 44mm headtube.
    Good.

    Apparently it just shipped, so I guess I will find out soon enough.

  13. #13
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    Ritchey Venturemax bars

    Quote Originally Posted by senor_mikey View Post

    I like the Ritchey Venturemax bars more than the Salsa bars. The Ritcheys have a shallower drop and a nice slight ergo bump in the drops for your palms.

    mike
    note to self take a look at the Ritchey Venturemax bars later.
    and maybe use the
    Interloc Racing Design Satin 35 Stem with them

  14. #14
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    That's an amazing price for an Advocate frameset. I guess the Fargo-like drop bar offroad touring bike just hasn't caught on enough to sell out the stock. I wonder if they'll be dropping the model or making significant changes.

    This is very tempting.
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  15. #15
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    Dirt Drops: My top two picks are the On One Midge and the Soma Junebug bars.

    Wheels: Dt Swiss 350 with 54t ratchet (very solid but not flashy), Hope are similar price with some bling but they're loud if that matters. Hadley is a nice Made in the USA hub at a great price, check them out.

    32 DB spokes.

    Whatever rim you like with IW 35-40mm. WTB Scrapers would be my top pick. Asyms are cool but sometimes unnecessary. Arc 40's are good too.
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  16. #16
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    I had a custom set of wheels built for my Krampus with DT350 hubs and WTB asymi35 rims. They have been amazing. Strong, easy tubeless, zero maintenance, reasonable weight, affordable. Highly recommend.

  17. #17
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    Thanks, everyone!

    Picking out a suitable and decent wheel-set is definitely the next priority.

    It terms of what I want to spend (i.e., as little as possible), I currently have three custom aluminum rimmed road wheel-sets (two for one bike, one for the other) ranging in cost from $750 to $1.2K, so I would like to keep it approximately within that window. Two of these have White Industries hubs, and the third has Chris King. (One exception I might be willing to make is if Santa Cruz comes out with a suitable wheel-set, since I can justify this as supporting a local business.)
    Last edited by wgscott; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:22 PM.

  18. #18
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    Nice project frame for the money! I would also be tempted to set it up with an xc 29er or 700c gravel wheelset with the amount of chainstay room there. With today's high volume 29 inch tires this could also be a very comfy wagon wheel bike as well. Just sayin. I would be all over the that Watchman Ti frame for 1k in M or L if available. Real nice quality frames by Advocate! ;-)
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  19. #19
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    --deleted --
    Last edited by wgscott; 3 Weeks Ago at 04:38 PM.

  20. #20
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    I just pulled the trigger on one, only 2 left, couldn't pass up the deal, and I have a lot of the items I need to build it up. Thanks for sharing, I would never have found it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by triathloner View Post
    I just pulled the trigger on one, only 2 left, couldn't pass up the deal, and I have a lot of the items I need to build it up. Thanks for sharing, I would never have found it.
    Congratulations!

    Feel free to post your build to this thread. Mine will be slower. I'm finishing teaching a large biochemistry course, and one of my kids is having some major surgery next month, so I probably won't be moving too quickly on this.

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    yes mine will be slow too, I have some parts, but I bought a new RSD Sergeant this year so the funds aren't there just yet to build it. I've been wanting a upright dropbar plus bike but they are soo expensive, if I take my time and use what I have I'm in at hopefully under 1000 on this one.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Good.

    Apparently it just shipped, so I guess I will find out soon enough.
    I can confirm the 44mm head tube. That's what mine has. A tapered fork works fine with the frame.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by laffeaux View Post
    I can confirm the 44mm head tube. That's what mine has. A tapered fork works fine with the frame.
    That's a tremendous relief. It was something I hadn't even thought about before ordering, but should have. My hope is to eventually get a nice suspension fork, and really use it as a mountain bike rather than "just" a fat-tire road bike.

  25. #25
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    Will drop bar version work ok with sthg like jones loop bar, don't have time to compare the geo charts, but since juniper green is not yet discounted...

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marsukurac View Post
    Will drop bar version work ok with sthg like jones loop bar, don't have time to compare the geo charts, but since juniper green is not yet discounted...
    It will. You might have to play around a bit with stem length/rise though.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  27. #27
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    I'm wondering the same thing. Comparing the geometry charts of the drop bar Seldom Seen with the Salsa Fargo (size L for both), the stack is about 5mm less and the reach about 8.4mm less on the Seldom Seen. That difference is in the wrong direction, but is pretty small. I have seen accounts of people using the Jones bar on a Fargo, so it should work.
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  28. #28
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    People do use Jones bars on Fargos. I've seen them too. But I think its ill-suited to the task. Its definitely not "geometrically" what was intended by either J Jones or Salsa.

    One idiosyncrasy of the Jones bars is there is dramatically more backsweep than most flat/riser bars. It tends to encourage longer stems and/or longer reach to cancel that backsweep. So even on a typical MTB flat bar geo, the Jones bars can feel a bit "backward" compared to normal flat/riser bars.

    Putting Jones bars onto a dirt-drop geometry like the Seldom Seen Drop Bar or the Fargo just further compounds that issue. Think about it: the intended hand position on the Fargo is substantially *forward* of the bar/stem clamp, whereas the actual hand position with a Jones bar is substantially *rearward* of the clamp.

    You can try experimenting with extremely long stems, and I'm sure you can find someone who swears that Jones+Fargo=Heaven, but I think its good general guidance to go find yourself a "normal" MTB frame if you want to use Jones bars, and not force-fit them onto a dirt-drop type of frame.

    my 2 cents . . .

  29. #29
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    What about butterfly/trekking bars mounted "backwards"?

  30. #30
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    What about using some Salsa Cowchippers and riding the bike as it was designed to be ridden?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    What about using some Salsa Cowchippers and riding the bike as it was designed to be ridden?
    That is clearly the route most likely to produce good results. But it can be fun to consider non-traditional ways of doing things.

    Edit - Come to think of it, Woodchippers would be more in line with the design than Cowchippers.
    Last edited by BluesDawg; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    What about using some Salsa Cowchippers and riding the bike as it was designed to be ridden?
    If I get road bike brakes and drops (which is probably what I will do), I prefer the brake hoods to be vertical. I'm not a fan of the cowchip geometry.

    It arrived today. It is supposed to be a Christmas present, but since we are a family of fundamentalist atheists, I took it out of the box for a quick inspection and measurement. The fork that comes with it is non-tapered, with a 30mm steering tube. The head tube has an inside diameter of 44mm. It didn't come with a headset (it didn't say it would).

  33. #33
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    Was the frame bag included?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    If I get road bike brakes and drops (which is probably what I will do), I prefer the brake hoods to be vertical. I'm not a fan of the cowchip geometry.

    It arrived today. It is supposed to be a Christmas present, but since we are a family of fundamentalist atheists, I took it out of the box for a quick inspection and measurement. The fork that comes with it is non-tapered, with a 30mm steering tube. The head tube has an inside diameter of 44mm. It didn't come with a headset (it didn't say it would).
    Why ride on the hoods if you can use the drops more effectively?

    I ride a Fargo with woodchipper (the weird looking one). Mounted so I can comfortably ride in the drops. When riding on pavement or light gravel I just hold on to the "bend" above the hoods.

    I think one needs to look at them like a really funky flat bar, otherwise your brakes will be very hard to reach from the drops.

    What I like most about them is being able to get really low on the edges of it. Feels like I can ride through anything.

  35. #35
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    If you can make it work riding on dirt in the hoods with a non-flared bar, go for it. But generally, the rougher the terrain gets, the more that being in the drops is going to offer better control. And the more you're riding in the drops, the more you'll probably appreciate a wider, flared bar for increased stability and wrist clearance.

    It might seem weird transitioning from a more 'roadie' approach to drop bars, where you are generally spending your time in the hoods, but when you're bombing down some singletrack and negotiating obstacles, etc. the benefits of a dirt-specific drop bar will start to make sense. And the general rule of thumb is that you want to position the bar high enough that when your hands are in the drops, they are about at the height that they would be on a flat mtn bar. Riding dirt on a purpose-built dirt drop bike can be a blast.

    And if you decide to go down that path, I would also recommend checking out the Some Junebug bar, and my current favorite, the Ritchey VentureMax.

    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    If I get road bike brakes and drops (which is probably what I will do), I prefer the brake hoods to be vertical. I'm not a fan of the cowchip geometry.

    It arrived today. It is supposed to be a Christmas present, but since we are a family of fundamentalist atheists, I took it out of the box for a quick inspection and measurement. The fork that comes with it is non-tapered, with a 30mm steering tube. The head tube has an inside diameter of 44mm. It didn't come with a headset (it didn't say it would).
    I love it when the delivery truck brings a new bike or bike parts!

    What is your initial impression of the quality of the frame, the weight, the welds, the paint etc? Did it come with any spec sheets with more info than the little bit on the website? Does it say what travel fork is recommended? I would guess 120mm.

    I'm back and forth on whether to take advantage of this deal. I've been thinking of getting a steel hardtail MTB to set up with B+ wheels and tires to use for bikepacking. I've mostly been thinking about a flat bar bike or a Jones loop bar, but I have always been fond of the Salsa Fargo and the concept of a drop bar MTB.

    I have a lightly used 10 speed Shimano XT group (derailleurs, shifters and cassette) that I want to use. That is one reason I've toyed with the idea of a Jones bar, but if I get this frame I'll go with dirt drops and get some Microshift bar end shifters that are compatible.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Was the frame bag included?
    Yes. It bolts on to some of the braze-ons. My impression was basic but well-made. (Also I think it was made in the USA if that matters. The frame/fork is from Taiwan.)

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    I love it when the delivery truck brings a new bike or bike parts!

    What is your initial impression of the quality of the frame, the weight, the welds, the paint etc?
    The frame quality looks good and solid. It is packed well and I haven't undone the packaging yet (for diplomatic reasons). For that reason, I also haven't weighed it, but my qualitative impression is that it is surprisingly light. The paint job looks good, but nothing special. I would not have chosen this color, but I can live with it. The welds look a bit cheap and ugly to me, but I am spoiled by a beautifully-made custom TIG-welded steel frame on my main ride. My initial impression: the frame is solid but unexceptional, based on what is admittedly a cursory examination. I did not see any obvious flaws.

    Did it come with any spec sheets with more info than the little bit on the website? Does it say what travel fork is recommended? I would guess 120mm.
    Nope. Just a frame, a fork, and a bag (and packing material). No information at all. Presumably the "recommended" fork is the one they have included.

    I'm back and forth on whether to take advantage of this deal. I've been thinking of getting a steel hardtail MTB to set up with B+ wheels and tires to use for bikepacking. I've mostly been thinking about a flat bar bike or a Jones loop bar, but I have always been fond of the Salsa Fargo and the concept of a drop bar MTB.
    If, like me, you view the drop bar as an asset rather than a liability, I would say go for it.

    I have a lightly used 10 speed Shimano XT group (derailleurs, shifters and cassette) that I want to use. That is one reason I've toyed with the idea of a Jones bar, but if I get this frame I'll go with dirt drops and get some Microshift bar end shifters that are compatible.
    My priority is to use Shimano hydraulic disc brakes, so I am trying to figure out how best to do this with road levers. The nuclear option is Di2, since the road lever/shifters will work with the mountain derailleur(s), but that wolftooth adapter thing would make much more financial sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    If you can make it work riding on dirt in the hoods with a non-flared bar, go for it. But generally, the rougher the terrain gets, the more that being in the drops is going to offer better control. And the more you're riding in the drops, the more you'll probably appreciate a wider, flared bar for increased stability and wrist clearance.

    It might seem weird transitioning from a more 'roadie' approach to drop bars, where you are generally spending your time in the hoods, but when you're bombing down some singletrack and negotiating obstacles, etc. the benefits of a dirt-specific drop bar will start to make sense. And the general rule of thumb is that you want to position the bar high enough that when your hands are in the drops, they are about at the height that they would be on a flat mtn bar. Riding dirt on a purpose-built dirt drop bike can be a blast.

    And if you decide to go down that path, I would also recommend checking out the Some Junebug bar, and my current favorite, the Ritchey VentureMax.
    I did not know any of that. Thanks for the detailed explanation and the suggestions for bars.

    What is the difference between the WCS and Comp Venturemax (apart from price)?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    If you can make it work riding on dirt in the hoods with a non-flared bar, go for it. But generally, the rougher the terrain gets, the more that being in the drops is going to offer better control. And the more you're riding in the drops, the more you'll probably appreciate a wider, flared bar for increased stability and wrist clearance.

    It might seem weird transitioning from a more 'roadie' approach to drop bars, where you are generally spending your time in the hoods, but when you're bombing down some singletrack and negotiating obstacles, etc. the benefits of a dirt-specific drop bar will start to make sense. And the general rule of thumb is that you want to position the bar high enough that when your hands are in the drops, they are about at the height that they would be on a flat mtn bar. Riding dirt on a purpose-built dirt drop bike can be a blast.

    And if you decide to go down that path, I would also recommend checking out the Some Junebug bar, and my current favorite, the Ritchey VentureMax.

    A side pic would be nice. My experience was original WTB off road drop bars, various traditional road bars, and I got a gen for Fargo the whole family loves WAY more than we expected to. That includes the Woodchipper bars where I did compare with some Vaya test rides. That pic makes me wonder if the reach for tips of the brake levers is too far away from the lower drops.

    In the 1970s I always liked the Schwinn bars that had the flare but not so much of it.

    The Seldom Seen frame seems so Fargo-like that reading the Bikepacking and Salsa sub-forums might be insightful.

    On setup and plus wheels (or not).... With three plus capable bikes and lots of trials I still roll with 29, fatties, and have most interest in 29+. Trying others' bikes and shop test rides left me feeling 29x3 is most between the true fatties and big 29 tires we have. The big 29s we have on different bikes are so good that I stopped thinking my next purchase would be plus wheels.

    That Seldom Seen should be pretty sweet when set up if it's like any of the Fargo generations I've tried or our gen 4 (2016 X9). Have fun building it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    What is the difference between the WCS and Comp Venturemax (apart from price)?
    I think there's a bit of a weight difference. Other than that, I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by bitflogger View Post
    That pic makes me wonder if the reach for tips of the brake levers is too far away from the lower drops.
    They're not too far to be reachable - I think it's just the perspective. I had a Woodchipper for a while, and never felt like I could find an ideal location such that the hoods and the drops were equally comfortable and usable. The VentureMax (like the Cowchippers and Junebug) has a tighter radius that makes setting up the bar for multiple hand positions a lot easier.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    OK, for all you weight-weenies:



    (maybe subtract 0.2 lbs for the packaging).






    Also, another bit of good news: The bottom-bracket shell is threaded.
    Last edited by wgscott; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:23 PM.

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    I think I have successfully convinced most of those who have read the above (and helpfully responded) that I really am out of my depth. So please keep this in mind when replying to the following question:

    The head tube is 44mm inside diameter. The fork that comes with it has a non-tapered steering tube. Ideally, I would like to be able to use that fork, and a suspension fork (which I assume would be tapered), interchangeably. Does this mean I would have to keep swapping between incompatible head-cups and sets, or is there some adapter or something that would allow me to swap forks back and forth without having to do anything drastic (involving tools I currently do not own)?

    eg:

    For the current fork, I think I would need something like this:

    Just ordered an Advocate Cycles frame ...-fb0048.jpg

    For a tapered suspension fork, I think I would need something like this:

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    Last edited by wgscott; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:18 PM.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitflogger View Post
    A side pic would be nice. My experience was original WTB off road drop bars, various traditional road bars, and I got a gen for Fargo the whole family loves WAY more than we expected to. That includes the Woodchipper bars where I did compare with some Vaya test rides. That pic makes me wonder if the reach for tips of the brake lIn the 1970s I always liked the Schwinn bars that had the flare but not so much of it.

    evers is too far away from the lower drops.

    .
    I've got the Venturemax bars on my dropbar B+ bike and agree with Smithhammer that they are great bars. I've tried many dirt drops including the infamous Ragley Luxy. I switched from Cowchippers to the Venturemax and had to get a 1cm shorter stem.
    The Venturemax bars are by far my favorite of this style bar. Width at the hoods is fine for riding on the hoods like a road bars but with enough flare to ride the techy stuff in the drops. I'm sold on the design.

    mike

  45. #45
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    I hope you're all proud of yourselves, I just placed my order.

    Thanks for the photos and the feedback, wgscott. I'm with you on the color. I don't love it, but I don't hate it. I do love the headbadge and the Advocate business model where part of the profits go to bicycling advocacy charities. I also like the connection between owner, Tim Krueger, and Salsa, especially with a bike so similar to the Fargo. Now to start finding all the various parts I'll need to make this frame into a bike.
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I think I have successfully convinced most of those who have read the above (and helpfully responded) that I really am out of my depth. So please keep this in mind when replying to the following question:

    The head tube is 44mm inside diameter. The fork that comes with it has a non-tapered steering tube. Ideally, I would like to be able to use that fork, and a suspension fork (which I assume would be tapered), interchangeably. Does this mean I would have to keep swapping between incompatible head-cups and sets, or is there some adapter or something that would allow me to swap forks back and forth without having to do anything drastic (involving tools I currently do not own)?
    NOTE: Disregard this reply. It was based on my limited awareness of better solutions being available.
    You will need to change the lower cups and bearings whenever you swap forks. That does require a couple of tools to remove one and install the other. Since I work part time at a bike shop, I can just go in and use the tools myself, but it is not an expensive thing to pay your LBS to do for you.
    Last edited by BluesDawg; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:38 PM.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    My priority is to use Shimano hydraulic disc brakes, so I am trying to figure out how best to do this with road levers. The nuclear option is Di2, since the road lever/shifters will work with the mountain derailleur(s), but that wolftooth adapter thing would make much more financial sense.
    Depending on your overall gearing needs, you may be able to use road shifters and derailleurs. I know for sure that the latest mechanical Ultegra midcage RD will work with a 11-36 cassette. I built a Lynskey GR250 gravel bike with that setup for a customer recently and it works beautifully. Wolftooth makes the Roadlink to facilitate that setup on bikes with dropouts that need more room, but it works perfectly on his bike with only a minor adjustment to the B tension screw. The only question then is how the front shifter/derailleur/crankset would interact.

    My plan on my Seldom Seen is to run a 11-36 cassette with 24-36 or 38 chainrings.
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  48. #48
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    I have a 46/30 crank on my (off)-roadbike. One wheelset has the 36T SRAM cassette and the other the new Ultegra 34. Both work with Di2. But I'm gunna need a lower gear. I really do use the 30-36 combo with WTB nano tires. With 2.8" or 3.0" mountain bike tires, I think I might need pedal-assist.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I have a 46/30 crank on my (off)-roadbike. One wheelset has the 36T SRAM cassette and the other the new Ultegra 34. Both work with Di2. But I'm gunna need a lower gear. I really do use the 30-36 combo with WTB nano tires. With 2.8" or 3.0" mountain bike tires, I think I might need pedal-assist.
    I'm pretty sure you'll need a MTB crank to get a good chainline on this bike, so you'll have a smaller small ring in front.
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    The Hayduke info page includes the following:

    Headset: ZS44/28.6 upper and EC44/40 lower. Use EC44 cup with reducer plate for 1 1/8” straight steerers
    What's a reducer plate, and would this allow me to swap forks?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    I'm pretty sure you'll need a MTB crank to get a good chainline on this bike, so you'll have a smaller small ring in front.
    Also, chain-stay clearance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    I hope you're all proud of yourselves, I just placed my order.
    Congratulations!

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Also, chain-stay clearance.
    Yes. The point is that you will not be running a 30 tooth front ring, you'll have someting in the low to mid 20s, so your gearing with a 36 in the rear will be lower than what you have on your (off) road bike.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    The Hayduke info page includes the following:



    What's a reducer plate, and would this allow me to swap forks?
    I'm not as familiar with King, but with Cane Creek you can swap forks without changing the lower headset cup. All you need is a different crown race, it's called a conversion crown race (1.5<1 1/8).

    All you should have to do is use the external cup lower for a 44mm head tube (aka: EC44) and install two different crown races on the two different forks. One will be for a normal tapered steer tube and the other will be the "reducer plate".

    Your local shop should be able to track down the correct part numbers. You may even be able to locate it on the King website?

    Edit: Just took a second look at the pics you posted of the headsets. The first one is a ZS (zero stack) and the second is a EC. Either one should be compatible with the two different crown races, you just need the correct lower for a 44mm head tube.

    (if any of this is wrong, please someone correct me)
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  55. #55
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    Thanks for the info! (I only picked Chris King as an example.)

  56. #56
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    True. All the differences can be accounted for at the crown race on the fork, so once each fork is set up, no special tools would be needed to go from one to the other.
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    True. All the differences can be accounted for at the crown race on the fork, so once each fork is set up, no special tools would be needed to go from one to the other.
    That would be most excellent.

    Now I have to consider how many thousands of dollars to drop on a suspension fork for my $350 frame.

    My 14 year old knows more about this than I do. (He thinks I should get a 34 or 32 Fox factory float.)

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    Yes. The point is that you will not be running a 30 tooth front ring, you'll have someting in the low to mid 20s, so your gearing with a 36 in the rear will be lower than what you have on your (off) road bike.
    I was thinking of the crank-arm, and the heal of my shoe. On my road bike, with a 135mm rear (disc) hub, I think there is about 3mm of clearance with respect to my Ultegra crank-arm. My right heal also occasionally clips it (enough to where I have a hole in the exterior of the shoe). This brings up another area of my ignorance: the need (or lack) for "boost" cranks.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Edit: Just took a second look at the pics you posted of the headsets. The first one is a ZS (zero stack) and the second is a EC. Either one should be compatible with the two different crown races, you just need the correct lower for a 44mm head tube.

    (if any of this is wrong, please someone correct me)
    Mostly right, some wrong.

    If you want to fit a tapered steerer to a straight 44mm head tube, you must use an EC44 lower cup. A ZS style cup is fine on the top assembly, for either a straight or tapered fork steerer. But on the lower headset assembly, a ZS44 cup will limit you to a 30mm crown race (and therefore limit you to a straight steerer only). An EC44 cup on the lower assembly will permit either a straight steerer (with the conversion crown race you mention) or a tapered steerer (with a standard 39.6mm crown race).

    Both styles of crown races are readily available from Cane Creek.

    So, in summary:
    - use a ZS44 headset on top
    - use a EC44 headset on bottom
    - use a 39.6m crown race on the suspension fork
    - use a "conversion" crown race on the rigid fork

    With this approach you can change forks with ease.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    You will need to change the lower cups and bearings whenever you swap forks. That does require a couple of tools to remove one and install the other. Since I work part time at a bike shop, I can just go in and use the tools myself, but it is not an expensive thing to pay your LBS to do for you.
    It concerns me that you work at a bike shop, and yet you don't know that you can install an EC44 style lower cup in a 44mm headtube and subsequently change forks without changing cups or bearings?

    I'm a John Hiatt fan, or I'd be less forgiving of this oversight

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I was thinking of the crank-arm, and the heal of my shoe. On my road bike, with a 135mm rear (disc) hub, I think there is about 3mm of clearance with respect to my Ultegra crank-arm. My right heal also occasionally clips it (enough to where I have a hole in the exterior of the shoe). This brings up another area of my ignorance: the need (or lack) for "boost" cranks.
    A MTB crank will have a higher Q factor than a road crank. Q factor is the distance between the planes of the outside edges of the crank arms at the pedal attachment points. Since the MTB will have wider chainstays, the wider crank arms are needed to clear them.

    Then there is the chainline to get correct. A normal road hub with a 130mm OLD will put the middle of the cassette in line with the middle point between the chainrings of a road crank. A normal MTB crank will have its chainings centered to line up with the center of a 135mm or 142mm OLD hub. A Boost rear hub with 148mm spacing will center its cassette 3mm further outboard, so Boost cranks position the chainrings 3mm further outboard. Some argue that standard MTB cranks were already positioned too far out from the center, so purely from a chainline alignment perspective, it would be better not to use a Boost crank. But another benefit of the wider chainline is clearance for wide tires. So it may or may not be better to run a Boost crank.
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    I also find myself getting quite confused about suspension forks. Is this one, for example, which is boost,

    https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=80896

    compatible with 27.5-PLUS tire sizes? It says "boost" but nowhere can I find explicit mention of the tire size. (The corresponding 2018 version of the fork, which is not discounted, does appear to have a specific designatino for 27.5+). This looks like a good price (Jensen has it at a better price that these guys will match), but I sure don't want to get the wrong thing!

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    It concerns me that you work at a bike shop, and yet you don't know that you can install an EC44 style lower cup in a 44mm headtube and subsequently change forks without changing cups or bearings?

    I'm a John Hiatt fan, or I'd be less forgiving of this oversight
    I'm an old retired fart who works part time at the bike shop to help support my bike habit. It's late. I'm sitting at home, not working on bikes at the shop. I'm working off of memory, not doing the kind of due diligence and research I would do at the shop before committing to a plan of action. It may or may not surprise you to know how infrequently it occurs in a small town bike shop for anyone to run two forks with differently configured steerers in a 44mm headtube, or for that matter how few bikes with 44mm headtubes have even come through the shop.

    As a Hiatt fan, you should be more forgiving of the goofy shit people say and do, not less.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I also find myself getting quite confused about suspension forks. Is this one, for example, which is boost,

    https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=80896

    compatible with 27.5-PLUS tire sizes? It says "boost" but nowhere can I find explicit mention of the tire size. (The corresponding 2018 version of the fork, which is not discounted, does appear to have a specific designatino for 27.5+). This looks like a good price (Jensen has it at a better price that these guys will match), but I sure don't want to get the wrong thing!
    You don't want that fork. It is for "typical" 27.5 tires, not for 29er wheels or 27.5+ tires.

    Assuming you want to run the 29x2.4-ish and 27.5x3 wheels that Advocate intended for this frame, you have two viable options for fork "type" (and several brand/model options within type):
    1) a 29er Boost fork (15x110 axles) fork. Although intended for 29er wheels, it will clear most/all 27.5x3 tires with sufficient clearance for mud/etc.
    2) a 27.5+/29 fork, sometimes called "110 Wide" by Fox. Although sharing the same axle type (15x110) it has a wider crown and the fork stanchions/lowers are spaced wider apart. Some of these can clear 29x3, 27.5x3.8 and 26x4 tires. Fox 34 models were the most common, but there are some SID, Reba, Yari, and Pike models now offered in this form (though sometimes OEM only).

    Any non-Boost fork (ie, 15x100 axle) will provide insufficient clearance for large 27.5x3 tires.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    You don't want that fork. ...
    Any non-Boost fork (ie, 15x100 axle) will provide insufficient clearance for large 27.5x3 tires.
    Again, thank you for your help. You just saved me from a huge head-ache. I did know that a boost fork was a necessary condition, but I falsely assumed it was a sufficient condition.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Again, thank you for your help. You just saved me from a huge head-ache. I did know that a boost fork was a necessary condition, but I falsely assumed it was a sufficient condition.
    Another thing you'll need to take into account is the axle to crown length of the fork you buy. The included rigid fork has an A-C of 495mm. The suspension fork will need to be pretty close to that (after accounting for sag of about 20% of the fork travel). That's probably going to limit you to around 100-120mm travel. Too long or too short and it will affect the steering angles and may stress the frame. I would contact Advocate Cycles for advice before buying anything.
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  67. #67
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    Fox 34 seems to be one option:

    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Name:  1085613d1470167270t-advocate-cycles-seldom-seen-20160801_212816.jpg
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  68. #68
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    I am surprised that Advocate does not include more build spec information on their website and in the documentation that comes with the frameset. I'm going to contact them tomorrow and see if I can get more information from them before I start buying any parts for my build.

    re: FOX 34, looks like the 110 @ 20% sag or 120 @ 25% sag should be in the ballpark.
    FORK- 2017-2018 34mm User Specification Drawings | Bike Help Center | FOX
    Last edited by BluesDawg; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:06 PM.
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  69. #69
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    I have a Seldom Seen that is very similar to the blue one pictured. The Fox fork is a 120mm fork. The axle to crown is just over 530mm, but also factor in that you'll need to run an external bearing lower cup which will also add about a cm of height compared to the rigid fork (if run with internal cups).

    At speed I think the 120mm fork works fine. On steeper, tight, twisty singletrack downhills I think that my setup suffers from too much wheel flop. I need to try the fork with more sag to see if that helps (unfortunately the weather has not been overly cooperative with this lately) . I'm sure that tire choice plays into this as well, as I noticed the "flop" a lot more after switching to a new less aggressive front tire.

    I've been looking around at various other fork options, and it seems like every manufacturer builds using the exact same dimensions, which is pretty frustrating. There is a little difference in fork offset, but virtually zero difference in axle-to-crown at a given amount of travel. I wish manufacturers offered a bit more choice instead of all following the exact same thing that everyone else offers - i.e. why not offer a sightly different a-to-c or offer a 110mm fork instead of 100 or 120.

    And as InertiaMan says, you'll need to have a boost spaced suspension fork to run the wider 3" tire options. Also make sure that your rigid fork is boost spaced (110mm) so that you can swap forks - it probably is, but it does not hurt to confirm. The boost spacing will determine what hubs you can run. A fork's clearance determines how wide and tall the maximum tire that will fit - boost helps with this my opening up the legs by an additional 1 cm.

    And I agree, Advocate does not show a lot of info on their web site.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    I am surprised that Advocate does not include more build spec information on their website and in the documentation that comes with the frameset. I'm going to contact them tomorrow and see if I can get more information from them before I start buying any parts for my build.
    Yes, I find this inexcusable. Selling framesets and not even posting extremely basic things like seatpost diameter?
    Good luck contacting them. Over the two week preceding Thanksgiving week, I made 10+ phone calls, left 2 voicemails, and sent emails in hopes of getting basic specs on the frame. Never succeeded.

    I can make educated guesses on some of these, but it basic information that is readily available for most frames (Salsa or Surly are examples):
    Seatpost diameter (31.6 I think??)
    Front der clamp size and cable routing (guessing 34.9 and top pull?)
    BB standard (73mm threaded I think?)
    Fork axle standard (15x110 I think, but could be 15x100 like current Fargos?)
    Headtube standard (44mm confirmed above)
    Chainring clearance? (typically Salsa or Surly will give 1X and 2X examples and Boost or non-Boost fit)
    29er tire clearance? (interestingly, their website never even mentions 29 wheels are compatible, though one would assume they are)
    Brake rotor size/clearance?
    Rear brake and derailleur routing? (in their photos, there are notably NO braze-ons on the front triangle. There are braze-ons on the rear stays, but no apparent support for routing across the top tube or downtube to get there??)

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Seatpost diameter (31.6 I think??)
    Yes, 31.6mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Rear brake and derailleur routing? (in their photos, there are notably NO braze-ons on the front triangle. There are braze-ons on the rear stays, but no apparent support for routing across the top tube or downtube to get there??)
    Cable routing for the brake and FD are along the top of the down tube. From the factory, I think the routing is cheesy. There are "bow tie" shaped plastic guides that keep the cable in place, but they are not a great fit and look pretty cheap. I replaced my with cable guides from Paragon (they cost about $30 for a set) and work WAY better. Hopefully Tim switches to these in the future (hint, hint).

    Downtube guide:
    Just ordered an Advocate Cycles frame ...-20171126_150447.jpg

    Top tube guide:
    Just ordered an Advocate Cycles frame ...-20171126_150632.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Chainring clearance? (typically Salsa or Surly will give 1X and 2X examples and Boost or non-Boost fit)
    Clearance is pretty good for chain ringsHere's a pic of mine with Shimnao XT boost with 24/34 rings.
    Just ordered an Advocate Cycles frame ...-20171126_150553.jpg

    And heres's pic showing the overall cable routing.
    Just ordered an Advocate Cycles frame ...-20171126_151233.jpg

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Seatpost diameter (31.6 I think??)
    Confirmed.

    BB standard (73mm threaded I think?)
    Confirmed as threaded.

    Fork axle standard (15x110 I think, but could be 15x100 like current Fargos?)
    I just measured it at 110 mm front, 148 mm rear.

    Headtube standard (44mm confirmed above)
    44mm non-tapered, non-threaded.

    Rear brake and derailleur routing? (in their photos, there are notably NO braze-ons on the front triangle. There are braze-ons on the rear stays, but no apparent support for routing across the top tube or downtube to get there??)
    Unfortunately, I think you are right. The ones on the left stay were the only ones I could find, consistent with what one might want for a hydraulic brake hose. Notably, I did not find any trace of any down-tube cable guide or even a bolt-hole. Likewise, nothing on the BB shell.

    Those things you see on the top-tube are there to attach the internal frame bag.

    I wonder if wireless Di2 works with steel frames?

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    Thanks for the feedback, laffeaux. Looks like the BB is BSA threaded?

    I did find a bit more info on Advocate's Facebook page.
    https://www.facebook.com/pg/advocate...27227810646904

    "The Seldom Seen is suspension-corrected for a 120mm travel fork, and the front wheel is a Boost 110x15mm through-axle, so you can easily mount a suspension fork in minutes"
    "The Wolftooth Tanpan is what makes this all work - mating Shimano 105 11 speed levers to the SLX 11 speed drivetrain"
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  74. #74
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    Good find on the Facebook post. That's the only photo I've seen online showing a built-up SS drop bar.

    What I want to know is how they are accomplishing the front shifting. The photo clearly shows a MTB side-swing front der and a Shimano 105 road shifter. There's no Tanpan model for that discrepancy in cable pull ratio.

  75. #75
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    @wgscott, did they include a front derailleur mount with the frame?

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    @wgscott, did they include a front derailleur mount with the frame?
    No.

    The only frame I ever broke was a steel one (1987 Bianchi Superlegarra) at the front derailleur braze-on, so I am less than heartbroken.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    No.

    The only frame I ever broke was a steel one (1987 Bianchi Superlegarra) at the front derailleur braze-on, so I am less than heartbroken.
    I'm not talking about a braze-on, I'm talking about a clamp. In theory a boost offset 34.9 high direct mount clamp.

  78. #78
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    No.

    The only clamp (or any part) that this frame came with is a cheap-looking seat-post clamp. Except for the frame bag, everything you see in the original photo in the first post on this thread came in the box, and nothing else.

  79. #79
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    Anyone else notice the barely discernible difference in reach/stack between the S and M size frames?

    The M actually has a shorter reach than the small. Admittedly, the M does have a taller stack, but only by 21mm.

    If one corrects for the stack difference (normalizing to a common stack height of 647mm by adding 20mm of spacers on the size S fork steerer) then the size M is only about 2.5mm longer in reach than a size S.

    Seems like a silly way to do a size spread. Makes me wonder if the 370.5mm reach for S is a typo.

  80. #80
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    I did see that, but assumed it was a typo.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Anyone else notice the barely discernible difference in reach/stack between the S and M size frames?
    The numbers are probably correct. The biggest difference is that the medium has a slacker seat tube angle. If you're between sizes and have long femurs, go with the medium.

    The seat post angle negates a portion of the 2cm difference in top tube length between the small and large.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by laffeaux View Post
    The numbers are probably correct. The biggest difference is that the medium has a slacker seat tube angle. If you're between sizes and have long femurs, go with the medium.

    The seat post angle negates a portion of the 2cm difference in top tube length between the small and large.
    a) the 0.5deg difference in seat tube angle is pretty trivial. It results in approx. 5mm of horizontal distance at the seat rails.
    b) the eff tt difference isn't 2cm, its 1.5cm
    c) I was talking about the small and medium, not the small and large

    Ultimately, a S with the saddle 5mm further back in the seatpost and a 20mm spacer on the fork will fit virtually identically to the medium. Same stack, same reach, same effective saddle setback.

    Given that example, although they will "ride" identically, the primary differences I see iare relatively cosmetic: more exposed seatpost on the S, less spacers on M, slightly larger framebag on M, better standover on S.

    Mostly I just don't understand a bike designer choosing a 25mm increase in reach from XS to S, and then only a 2.5mm increase in S to M, and then 25mm again from M to L.
    (all those numbers are based on normalizing the stack to the next larger size, to isolate the reach difference).

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    a) the 0.5deg difference in seat tube angle is pretty trivial. It results in approx. 5mm of horizontal distance at the seat rails.
    b) the eff tt difference isn't 2cm, its 1.5cm
    c) I was talking about the small and medium, not the small and large
    The 2cm difference is in the flat bar model. It is only 15mm on the drop version, sorry about that.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  84. #84
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    P.S. As a slightly taller rider, I pay close attention to the seat tube angle, as it dictates what options I can use on a bike build. Running a non-setback seatpost on a bike with a 73 degree STA is not going to happen. On my bike with the shallower STA, I still run a seat back post, and slide the saddle almost as far back as I can. On the 73 degree frame, I'd have no option but to jam the saddle all the way back. So to me a half degree is still something to pay attention to.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  85. #85
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    I'm kind of plagued with short legs (29" inseam at 5'9"). How crazy would it be to put 26+ wheels on this?

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Mostly right, some wrong.

    If you want to fit a tapered steerer to a straight 44mm head tube, you must use an EC44 lower cup. A ZS style cup is fine on the top assembly, for either a straight or tapered fork steerer. But on the lower headset assembly, a ZS44 cup will limit you to a 30mm crown race (and therefore limit you to a straight steerer only). An EC44 cup on the lower assembly will permit either a straight steerer (with the conversion crown race you mention) or a tapered steerer (with a standard 39.6mm crown race).

    Both styles of crown races are readily available from Cane Creek.

    So, in summary:
    - use a ZS44 headset on top
    - use a EC44 headset on bottom
    - use a 39.6m crown race on the suspension fork
    - use a "conversion" crown race on the rigid fork

    With this approach you can change forks with ease.
    ^ I knew that too. Somehow it didn't sound right when I typed it.

    Thanks for clearing that up.
    Last edited by *OneSpeed*; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:00 PM.
    Rigid SS 29er
    Fat Lefty
    SS MonsterCross
    SS cyclocross
    all steel

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I'm kind of plagued with short legs (29" inseam at 5'9"). How crazy would it be to put 26+ wheels on this?
    Probably not a good idea. The geo already has a pretty low BB at 70mm drop.

    What size did you get? A physiological "feature" like yours would be a good reason to go S rather than M since you'd have the same reach but better standover.

  88. #88
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    I got the medium. (I'm still suspicious it was a typo.) I tried to adhere to numbers that matched a custom frame I have that fits well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    You will need to change the lower cups and bearings whenever you swap forks. That does require a couple of tools to remove one and install the other. Since I work part time at a bike shop, I can just go in and use the tools myself, but it is not an expensive thing to pay your LBS to do for you.
    If you use an external cup lower, you’ll just need different crown races on the straight and tapered steer tubes. Easy peasy and no need to change headsets.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulsepro View Post
    If you use an external cup lower, you’ll just need different crown races on the straight and tapered steer tubes. Easy peasy and no need to change headsets.
    Yes. Correct. This has been discussed above.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I'm kind of plagued with short legs (29" inseam at 5'9"). How crazy would it be to put 26+ wheels on this?
    Is that your real cycling inseam, (floor to pubic bone), or is that the inseam length for your pants? There is normally about 2" difference between the two.

    Regardless, with the pretty steep slope of the top tube, maybe it won't be a problem. If you are planning to run B+ wheels, they will run slightly smaller in diameter than 29". Going with 2.8" tires instead of 3.0" will also lower the bike slightly.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  92. #92
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    Would 26+ 3.0" wide tires fit a FOX 32 FLOAT SC FACTORY 27.5 boost fork?

    There is one at Jensen on sale for $330. Fox 32 Float SC Factory 27.5 2017 | Jenson USA

  93. #93
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    You don't want a 27.5 fork, you want a 27.5+ or 29" fork. Even if the tire would fit, the axle to crown length is too short. Even if it fit and you could live with the steeper steering angle, you'd be stuck with that tire size and unable to switch to a 27.5+ or 29 wheel.

    Are you determined to run a suspension fork from the get go? I'm going to start off with the rigid fork and may or may not add suspension later.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  94. #94
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    No, I just saw it on sale for 63% off and I am a cheapskate. I just thought if it fit with the smaller 26+ tire and wheel (I am assuming the outside diameter of a 26+ tire is less than or equal to a standard 27.5), it might be preferable to spending $850 on a fork for a $350 frame...

    I originally was going to get a Jamis Dragonslayer 26+ bike, but I could find no one to relieve me of my money.

  95. #95
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    You have to consider more than just will the tire fit in the fork. You also need to consider what happens when you combine a smaller diameter wheel and tire with a shorter fork. That's going to lower the front of the bike and alter the steering angle - not in a good way.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  96. #96
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BluesDawg again.

    Sorry if I am being thick.

    The fork is 8mm shorter than the rigid one provided with the bike (and that difference would presumably shrink when the headset and crown race are included. Since both the front and rear wheel diameters would change by the same amount, there shouldn't be additional angular difference due to the smaller tire diameter contribution.

    I see what you wrote above about 20% sag, but wouldn't you want to compare the fork lengths with the suspension fork fully extended and locked out? Again, I apologize for knowing almost nothing about this.

    Shouldn't we be worried about adding a suspension fork that is longer than the rigid one? Also, the same rigid fork is provided for all the frames, XS through XL.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I originally was going to get a Jamis Dragonslayer 26+ bike, but I could find no one to relieve me of my money.
    I had the same problem.
    If you put 26+ on a 27.5+ bicycle your pedals get closer to the ground. Pedal strikes rock, cyclists takes a tumble. You measure the fork in the position it will be in while you ride. Sit on the bike, you and your gear and water, etc. The suspension fork compresses a little with the weight. That is the measurment you want to match the solid forks a to c. The suspension fork will be a little longer than your ridged fork. If you buy the wrong wheels or tires or fork or style of bars, you will buy again in the correct size.

    I had my bike for 2 years before I got a suspension fork. Are you sure you want a suspension fork on a drop bar bike? 3 inch tires run tubeless really smooth out the bumps on old roads. Drop bars are not the safest opton in the places where you really need suspension.
    Build the bike the way it was designed to be built. Second guessing the basic elements of the design is an expensive mistake

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Build the bike the way it was designed to be built. Second guessing the basic elements of the design is an expensive mistake

    Right now we all seem to be guessing about how the bike was "designed to be built," with only a few hints on a facebook page and a photo of a pre-release version.

    There are no instructions that come in the box, and the only other hint is how the flat-bar version is built up with a rigid fork, and how the (flatbar) Hayduke is built up with suspension.

    Also, the rigid fork is suspension-adjusted, which would imply the frame was designed with having a suspension option in mind.
    Last edited by wgscott; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:20 PM.

  99. #99
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    "Seldom Seen™ – purpose built for bikepacking and off road touring, the Seldom Seen can take either 29er or 27+ wheelsets, and is built around the Boost chainline. Complete with rack and fender mounts, lots of bottle cage mounts, and sold with its own framebag, it will be ready to take on that S24O, or that trip around the globe. Geometries will come in 4 sizes for flat bars and 4 sizes for drop bars, "

    I see what you mean. And every guess is $400 or something.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BluesDawg again.

    Sorry if I am being thick.

    The fork is 8mm shorter than the rigid one provided with the bike (and that difference would presumably shrink when the headset and crown race are included. Since both the front and rear wheel diameters would change by the same amount, there shouldn't be additional angular difference due to the smaller tire diameter contribution.

    I see what you wrote above about 20% sag, but wouldn't you want to compare the fork lengths with the suspension fork fully extended and locked out? Again, I apologize for knowing almost nothing about this.

    Shouldn't we be worried about adding a suspension fork that is longer than the rigid one? Also, the same rigid fork is provided for all the frames, XS through XL.
    You are right about the smaller rear wheel cancelling the effect of the smaller front. My bad. But you are incorrect about the sag effect. In a static state with your weight on the bike, the fork will b shorter by 20% of the travel (or whatever % you set it up as). So using the example of a 100mm travel fork, the fork will vary from 20mm longer to 80mm shorter than the static position. So a 100mm travel fork that is 8mm shorter than the rigid fork would be 28mm shorter than the desired length.

    Yes, too long a fork would also be a problem, which is why you wouldn't want a 150mm travel fork.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

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