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Just ordered an Advocate Cycles frame ...

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#1 ·
I just ordered an Advocate Cycles Seldom Seen Frame + fork for $350 (MSRP $1K). This is the drop-bar version. I convinced myself that with that kind of price reduction, it might be fun to build up a 27.5+ drop-bar steel-framed mountain/off-road touring bike.

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It is at this point that I have to face up to the ugly inconvenient fact that I really have very little idea of what I am doing, so am very open to suggestions.

I've been doing most of my "mountain biking" in the last few years on a drop-bar "adventure" road bike (also steel framed) with various off-road tires (up to 40mm), and find it more comfortable and enjoyable than my 10 year old Trek Fuel EX7, which has full suspension, primarily I think to compensate for the harsh aluminum frame.

The geometry of this frame differs from the flat-bar version primarily in that the top tube is shorter. (The effective top tube is still longer than that of my off-road road bike, fwiw.).

Here is what I need advice on (minimally):

(a) Bars: The default is to go with drops, similar to what I have on the other bike. I tend to spend 90% of my time on the hoods in an off-road situation. Should I look at other options, like Jones bars, or butterfly trekking bars, etc?

(b). Shifting: That other bike has Ultegra hydraulics and Di2 shifting, and I have come to appreciate the ergonomic non-suckiness. Those calipers are basically re-labled XT, and I probably would want to keep it at that level. If I get drops, is there a way to mix XT derailleurs with Ultegra "brifters"? (I know you can mix and match the Di2 version, but I'd probably want to keep mechanical shifting.) Is a 1X a better option with some freakishly huge cassette? Again thinking approximately XT or SLX level. I don't know anything about "boost" and its relevance to crank choices, Q-factor, etc.

(c). Wheels: I want good solid robust wheels. My upper limit would be Chris Kings with aluminum rims (which I have on the other bike) but wouldn't mind keeping the price significantly lower at the expense of getting a solid mass-produced wheel-set. The frame will take 3.0" tires. I would like to run at least 2.8" wide tires to begin with.

(d) Fork: I would like to have the option, eventually, of swapping the rigid fork for a 27.5+ compatible suspension fork of decent quality.

This is going to be a leisurely California rainy season project, so there is no huge rush, fwiw.
 
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#7 ·
For the closely related Advocate Hayduke, it says

ZS44/28.6 upper and EC44/40 lower. Use EC44 cup with reducer plate for 1 1/8" straight steerers
Unfortunately, for this frame, they don't list the detailed frame specs. I am hoping you are right and that it is the same story. The blue bike in the photo was a pre-production version, so it is not a guarantee.
 
#4 ·
This is what I can recommend based on my 29+ drop-bar steel-framed mountain/off-road touring bike.

Shimano's mountain and road components have a different pull ratio, so they're not compatible. Wolftooth makes an adapter called the tanpan that will allow you to use brifters with mountain derailleurs. SRAM components are generally compatible across lines. On my drop-bar bike I have a GX derailleur with Apex road shifters. I use BB7 brakes on that bike, but shimano hydraulics are so much better. Still, I live with the BB7s since they work and that's what the bike came with.

For bars, Woodchipper drop bars work fine for me. Cowchippers might be a better gravel options, but Jones bars would also work if you get the right stem length. With an off-road drop bar, you get more control in the drops. You'll want to set up your drops high enough so the drops are your primary position. Google Guitar Ted or seek him on here, he wrote the bible of "dirt drops."

Wheels: WTB Asym i35. Cheap, robust, and relatively light weight. Works for me with 3" wheels. I like DT Swiss 350 hubs. You're looking at $600-700 for a bombproof wheel, but not the lightest out there. Scrapers are heavier and more expensive. They're the standard for plus rims, but might be overkill if you're not planning on railing berms at very low pressure.

Those are my thoughts. Drop bar mountain bike can be a versatile and a lot of fun. You're going to enjoy it,
 
#8 ·
just for a different drivetrain option... I set up my similar bike with 11 speed Campy Athena shifters which shift 9 speed Shimano cassettes with a Shimano rear derailleur. I'm using TRP Spyres discs and everything works great.

I like the Ritchey Venturemax bars more than the Salsa bars. The Ritcheys have a shallower drop and a nice slight ergo bump in the drops for your palms.

mike
 
#13 ·
Ritchey Venturemax bars

I like the Ritchey Venturemax bars more than the Salsa bars. The Ritcheys have a shallower drop and a nice slight ergo bump in the drops for your palms.

mike
note to self take a look at the Ritchey Venturemax bars later.
and maybe use the
Interloc Racing Design Satin 35 Stem with them
 
#14 ·
That's an amazing price for an Advocate frameset. I guess the Fargo-like drop bar offroad touring bike just hasn't caught on enough to sell out the stock. I wonder if they'll be dropping the model or making significant changes.

This is very tempting.
 
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#18 ·
Nice project frame for the money! I would also be tempted to set it up with an xc 29er or 700c gravel wheelset with the amount of chainstay room there. With today's high volume 29 inch tires this could also be a very comfy wagon wheel bike as well. Just sayin. I would be all over the that Watchman Ti frame for 1k in M or L if available. Real nice quality frames by Advocate! ;-)
 
#243 ·
Looking good. Did your frame not come with two packs of short and long plastic cable guides?

I finally got my final (for now) components installed and took my bike out for a six mile, a fairly easy mix of singletrack and doubletrack trails. This thing is a blast to ride offroad! Aside from bags and bottle cages and such, I'm pretty much done making changes until I convert the wheels to 27.5 plus.

IMG_20180205_175105101 by Benny Watson, on Flickr

IMG_20180205_175129456 by Benny Watson, on Flickr

IMG_20180205_175241836 by Benny Watson, on Flickr
 
#2 ·
As far as fork goes, looking at that frame it looks like it it a straight head tube. If it is straight (not tapered) it will be hard to find a decent quality suspension fork that will work with it. Not sure who all is still making straight steerer tube suspension forks, but you'll probably also need it to be boost for tire clearance purposes, which will eliminate some of the used straight steerer tube forks that might be available, since boost is relatively new.

For wheels, WTB scraper rims are sort of the go-to, or Raceface Arc. Both of those are aluminum and available in 35mm, 40mm, and 45mm widths which can all accommodate plus tires. Hope pro 4 hubs are great and cheaper than Chris King hubs.

I don't know if you can mix Shimano road and MTB group sets. I don't think you can though.

Most crankets/chainrings you get have boost options now to get the chainline right.

As for bars, I believe its Salsa that makes some drop bars that are angled quite a bit that are supposedly better for off road riding.
 
#15 ·
Dirt Drops: My top two picks are the On One Midge and the Soma Junebug bars.

Wheels: Dt Swiss 350 with 54t ratchet (very solid but not flashy), Hope are similar price with some bling but they're loud if that matters. Hadley is a nice Made in the USA hub at a great price, check them out.

32 DB spokes.

Whatever rim you like with IW 35-40mm. WTB Scrapers would be my top pick. Asyms are cool but sometimes unnecessary. Arc 40's are good too.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Thanks, everyone!

Picking out a suitable and decent wheel-set is definitely the next priority.

It terms of what I want to spend (i.e., as little as possible), I currently have three custom aluminum rimmed road wheel-sets (two for one bike, one for the other) ranging in cost from $750 to $1.2K, so I would like to keep it approximately within that window. Two of these have White Industries hubs, and the third has Chris King. (One exception I might be willing to make is if Santa Cruz comes out with a suitable wheel-set, since I can justify this as supporting a local business.)
 
#21 ·
Congratulations!

Feel free to post your build to this thread. Mine will be slower. I'm finishing teaching a large biochemistry course, and one of my kids is having some major surgery next month, so I probably won't be moving too quickly on this.
 
#27 ·
I'm wondering the same thing. Comparing the geometry charts of the drop bar Seldom Seen with the Salsa Fargo (size L for both), the stack is about 5mm less and the reach about 8.4mm less on the Seldom Seen. That difference is in the wrong direction, but is pretty small. I have seen accounts of people using the Jones bar on a Fargo, so it should work.
 
#28 ·
People do use Jones bars on Fargos. I've seen them too. But I think its ill-suited to the task. Its definitely not "geometrically" what was intended by either J Jones or Salsa.

One idiosyncrasy of the Jones bars is there is dramatically more backsweep than most flat/riser bars. It tends to encourage longer stems and/or longer reach to cancel that backsweep. So even on a typical MTB flat bar geo, the Jones bars can feel a bit "backward" compared to normal flat/riser bars.

Putting Jones bars onto a dirt-drop geometry like the Seldom Seen Drop Bar or the Fargo just further compounds that issue. Think about it: the intended hand position on the Fargo is substantially *forward* of the bar/stem clamp, whereas the actual hand position with a Jones bar is substantially *rearward* of the clamp.

You can try experimenting with extremely long stems, and I'm sure you can find someone who swears that Jones+Fargo=Heaven, but I think its good general guidance to go find yourself a "normal" MTB frame if you want to use Jones bars, and not force-fit them onto a dirt-drop type of frame.

my 2 cents . . .
 
#31 · (Edited)
That is clearly the route most likely to produce good results. But it can be fun to consider non-traditional ways of doing things.

Edit - Come to think of it, Woodchippers would be more in line with the design than Cowchippers.
 
#35 ·
If you can make it work riding on dirt in the hoods with a non-flared bar, go for it. But generally, the rougher the terrain gets, the more that being in the drops is going to offer better control. And the more you're riding in the drops, the more you'll probably appreciate a wider, flared bar for increased stability and wrist clearance.

It might seem weird transitioning from a more 'roadie' approach to drop bars, where you are generally spending your time in the hoods, but when you're bombing down some singletrack and negotiating obstacles, etc. the benefits of a dirt-specific drop bar will start to make sense. And the general rule of thumb is that you want to position the bar high enough that when your hands are in the drops, they are about at the height that they would be on a flat mtn bar. Riding dirt on a purpose-built dirt drop bike can be a blast.

And if you decide to go down that path, I would also recommend checking out the Some Junebug bar, and my current favorite, the Ritchey VentureMax.

 
#39 ·
If you can make it work riding on dirt in the hoods with a non-flared bar, go for it. But generally, the rougher the terrain gets, the more that being in the drops is going to offer better control. And the more you're riding in the drops, the more you'll probably appreciate a wider, flared bar for increased stability and wrist clearance.

It might seem weird transitioning from a more 'roadie' approach to drop bars, where you are generally spending your time in the hoods, but when you're bombing down some singletrack and negotiating obstacles, etc. the benefits of a dirt-specific drop bar will start to make sense. And the general rule of thumb is that you want to position the bar high enough that when your hands are in the drops, they are about at the height that they would be on a flat mtn bar. Riding dirt on a purpose-built dirt drop bike can be a blast.

And if you decide to go down that path, I would also recommend checking out the Some Junebug bar, and my current favorite, the Ritchey VentureMax.
I did not know any of that. Thanks for the detailed explanation and the suggestions for bars.

What is the difference between the WCS and Comp Venturemax (apart from price)?
 
#43 · (Edited)
I think I have successfully convinced most of those who have read the above (and helpfully responded) that I really am out of my depth. So please keep this in mind when replying to the following question:

The head tube is 44mm inside diameter. The fork that comes with it has a non-tapered steering tube. Ideally, I would like to be able to use that fork, and a suspension fork (which I assume would be tapered), interchangeably. Does this mean I would have to keep swapping between incompatible head-cups and sets, or is there some adapter or something that would allow me to swap forks back and forth without having to do anything drastic (involving tools I currently do not own)?

eg:

For the current fork, I think I would need something like this:

Product Text Font Black Photography


For a tapered suspension fork, I think I would need something like this:

Product Text Font Logo Circle
 
#46 · (Edited)
I think I have successfully convinced most of those who have read the above (and helpfully responded) that I really am out of my depth. So please keep this in mind when replying to the following question:

The head tube is 44mm inside diameter. The fork that comes with it has a non-tapered steering tube. Ideally, I would like to be able to use that fork, and a suspension fork (which I assume would be tapered), interchangeably. Does this mean I would have to keep swapping between incompatible head-cups and sets, or is there some adapter or something that would allow me to swap forks back and forth without having to do anything drastic (involving tools I currently do not own)?
NOTE: Disregard this reply. It was based on my limited awareness of better solutions being available.
You will need to change the lower cups and bearings whenever you swap forks. That does require a couple of tools to remove one and install the other. Since I work part time at a bike shop, I can just go in and use the tools myself, but it is not an expensive thing to pay your LBS to do for you.
 
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