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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Are you sure you want a suspension fork on a drop bar bike?
    Well, I also have this, which I ride on fairly tricky trails with 40mm WTB nanos, so I am hoping to eventually have something a bit more different than a second steel-framed drop-bar bike with somewhat fatter tires:


  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    you are incorrect about the sag effect. In a static state with your weight on the bike, the fork will b shorter by 20% of the travel (or whatever % you set it up as). So using the example of a 100mm travel fork, the fork will vary from 20mm longer to 80mm shorter than the static position. So a 100mm travel fork that is 8mm shorter than the rigid fork would be 28mm shorter than the desired length.
    OK, thanks for the explanation. I very much appreciate it.

    I think I was falsely assuming the equilibrium position of the shocks would be fully extended, rather than sagging at 20%.

  3. #103
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    Let me put my question in a different way:

    What if the frame did not come with any fork? How would I go about figuring out the optimal suspension fork length?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Let me put my question in a different way:

    What if the frame did not come with any fork? How would I go about figuring out the optimal suspension fork length?
    The easiest way would be to ask the manufacturer for their recommendations. Otherwise, you make your best guess and see how the bike rides and adjust as needed.

    There are a lot of factors that determine how the bike will ride: head tube angle, fork length, fork offset, and ultimately "trail" which is a measurement that involves all of the above measurements plus wheel size. Finding a fork/frame/wheelset combination that gives you a good trail measurement is what will make the bike handle well. You can try different combinations - preferably by swapping parts from another bike instead of buying the parts - to see how handling is impacted. Generally it's best to stick with parts that are near the manufacturers recommendations.

    Forks that are too long will make the bike wander on the trail; they will not climb well. Forks that are two short will feel sketchy on the downhill. Bikes with too much "trail" will be great on downhills, but not much fun on twisty single track. Bikes with too little trail will be nervous and twitchy.

    Going to a smaller wheel size lowers the bottom bracket, but it also changes the trail measurement - unless you use a fork with less offset to offset the change of wheel size.

    All that said, everyone has their own opinion on what a bike should feel like, so there's not right or wrong answer. And after a few miles on a bike most riders can adjust to just about any setup.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Let me put my question in a different way:

    What if the frame did not come with any fork? How would I go about figuring out the optimal suspension fork length?
    Frames are spec'd with a narrow range of appropriate fork length. This is necessary to keep the BB height and headtube angle within a range that the bike performs in a reasonable/desirable way. Often this is noted in or near the geometry chart. Sometimes this spec is a precise length of rigid fork (like the case with this Advocate) and you can determine an equivalent suspension fork based on that number. Or a bike company may just say "use forks between Xmm and Ymm unsagged length," Or they may say "suitable for 120-130mm forks."

    For this frame, the 495mm spec corresponds to a ~ 120mm 29er/27.5+ fork.

    In the absence of a frame spec -- say you give me a generic frame with no data about it and no branding to reference -- its substantially more complicated. I would install any rigid fork I had around, and knowing its length, I could then measure the BB drop and heatube angle with that fork length. From that, one could back-compute fairly closely to the appropriate fork length to yield a reasonably performing bike, based on common figures for BB drop. Why this is relevant to your build of the Advocate is beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I think I was falsely assuming the equilibrium position of the shocks would be fully extended, rather than sagging at 20%.
    Fork specifications are based on a static un-mounted fork, aka fully extended. But sitting on a bike sags the fork, so when comparing the rigid fork length "desired" by a particular frame design to a corresponding suspension fork, you need to incorporate that sag if the objective is to yield similar riding/steering behavior with both rigid and suspension fork. Hence the need to subtract sag from spec'd fork length when shopping suspension forks.

    Using Fox as an example (Rockshox are often ~5mm longer) the 32mm forks are about 520mm long for 120mm travel. The 34mm forks are more like 532mm at 120mm. So a 32mm 120mm fork sagged at 20% yield a 496mm "effective" fork length, which closely matches the rigid fork on the Advocate. A 110mm 34mm fork would be about 498mm, also closely matching. In practice, a fork that is +/- 10mm off the ideal is still viable, and for some folks its a way to "tweak" a design to their preferences. But substantially beyond that range is not recommended.

    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Right now we all seem to be guessing about how the bike was "designed to be built," with only a few hints on a facebook page and a photo of a pre-release version.
    I don't think any of us, save you, are guessing about the intended purposes of this bike. There is a frustrating lack of info published on certain common parameters that influence component selection (seatpost diameter, etc) and I've made that complaint myself, but those have little/no bearing on the intended "design." There is a complete geometry chart on their website, and that determines, in large part, how the bike was "designed to be built." At least to a knowledgeable reader it does.

  6. #106
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    I am hoping that I will soon get a reply from Advocate to the request for build spec information that I sent in reply to my order confirmation. So far all I got was an automated message acknowledging that they got my email. I think they're playing catch up after the holiday break.

    While it would be preferable to have the answers from Advocate, I am confident that between what I already have learned about the frame and what I can see for myself once it arrives, I can get everything sorted out and do a good build.

    As for the fork, knowing the A-C of 49 mm and the offset of 51 tells us all we need to know as InertiaMan so thoroughly explained.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Why this is relevant to your build of the Advocate is beyond me.
    Using the included fork as the only metric effectively gives an infinite weighting to one data point. I was curious whether there is a standard mechanism to estimate required fork length in the absence of that one data point, both for my own edification, and, more importantly, as a reality check, just in case the supplied fork for some reason isn't optimized (presumably this is a possibility, since two frames with different geometries, each in five sizes, all use the same fork).

    I don't think any of us, save you, are guessing about the intended purposes of this bike. There is a frustrating lack of info published on certain common parameters that influence component selection (seatpost diameter, etc) and I've made that complaint myself, but those have little/no bearing on the intended "design." There is a complete geometry chart on their website, and that determines, in large part, how the bike was "designed to be built." At least to a knowledgeable reader it does.
    As you know, I am aware of the chart. However, one has to infer such things as the intent of a design to allow for example exchanging a rigid fork for a suspension fork. I think this is a reasonably safe assumption -- why else have a suspension-adjusted fork and frame? -- but it is exactly that, an inferred assumption based on measurements provided in the table.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I was curious whether there is a standard mechanism to estimate required fork length in the absence of that one data point, both for my own edification...
    If you know the head tube angle that was intended and have an accurate method of measuring it, you could determine the correct fork length.

    But again ultimately it's the "trail" measurement that matters most and you could likely attain a good feel with different forks.

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  9. #109
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    Here is a tentative list of components I am thinking about (I haven't purchased anything but the frame yet, and unless something is on sale, probably won't even buy any major part until 2018):

    Feel free to rip it apart (and offer better alternatives)

    1. Ritchey Venturemax bars

    2. Headset, etc, to simultaneously accommodate current fork and future suspension fork (ZS44 ,EC44 39.6m crown race on the suspension fork, "conversion" crown race on the rigid fork)

    3. Brakes: TRP - Hylex (true) Hydraulic Drop Bar Disc Brake (not brifters).

    4. Shifters: SLX-level non-integrated mtb 2X11

    5. Drivetrain: SLX 2X11 boost (26/36T crank, 11-40T cassette) and SLX derailleurs, as pictured in linked vendor's facebook page.

    6. Wheels: 27.5+ with 2.8 or 3.0 tires. (still need to determine, but probably aluminum rims, decent hubs, quality build, lots of spokes - 32 or 36?)

    7. Post and saddle: conventional post and saddle that came with my 2007 Fuel EX7, or possibly one of them Brooks B17s with springs


    Notes:

    1. @senor_mikey Thanks for the suggestion

    2. @*OneSpeed* @InertiaMan Thanks for the advice.

    3. Hydraulic 105-level or Ultegra "brifters" are almost as expensive as Di2, whereas the TRP non-brifters are a bit over $200, and I dodge the problem of getting road shifters to work with the mountain bike derailleurs. I checked these out at Sea Otter and they seemed quite comfortable and well-made.

    4. This might take some getting used to, but I hate the side-to-side motion of Shimano integrated mechanical shifters.

    5. I think I want two chainrings, but I can live without an 11 speed cassette if there are better options.

    6. Ideally I would like to keep this under $600, at least for now. (My most expensive road wheelsets are around $1100).

    7. I'm convinced I should postpone purchase of a suspension fork until I learn a bit more about the bike and its requirements.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Using the included fork as the only metric effectively gives an infinite weighting to one data point. I was curious whether there is a standard mechanism to estimate required fork length in the absence of that one data point, both for my own edification, and, more importantly, as a reality check, just in case the supplied fork for some reason isn't optimized (presumably this is a possibility, since two frames with different geometries, each in five sizes, all use the same fork).
    This isn't a science experiment. The fork is not a variable in an equation. But if you insist on the analogy, it is a CONSTANT in an equation chosen by Advocate.

    It isn't some random "included fork" that a retailer tossed in the box. It is a fork DESIGNED by Advocate to complement the SS frame. They were designed together. Its the same fork for every size because EVERY size has the identical head angle and intended fork length. The parameters that change with size (TT length, ST length/angle, etc) have no direct bearing on the fork selection.

    Put another way: the frame is designed around a specific fork length. The included fork was made that length.

    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    As you know, I am aware of the chart. However, one has to infer such things as the intent of a design to allow for example exchanging a rigid fork for a suspension fork. I think this is a reasonably safe assumption -- why else have a suspension-adjusted fork and frame? -- but it is exactly that, an inferred assumption based on measurements provided in the table.
    I would not characterize this as an inference. It is simply so common and normal that it doesn't even need to be stated or second guessed. At least by anyone who has ever built a bike.

    What do you imagine Advocate telling you, exactly? "you can't use suspension forks"? "you must use a 100mm suspension fork"??

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Here is a tentative list of components I am thinking about (I haven't purchased anything but the frame yet, and unless something is on sale, probably won't even buy any major part until 2018):

    Feel free to rip it apart (and offer better alternatives)

    4. Shifters: SLX-level non-integrated mtb 2X11
    How are you going to mount SLX shifters on the Venturemax bars?

  12. #112
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    Velcro

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    1. Ritchey Venturemax bars

    2. Headset, etc, to simultaneously accommodate current fork and future suspension fork (ZS44 ,EC44 39.6m crown race on the suspension fork, "conversion" crown race on the rigid fork)

    3. Brakes: TRP - Hylex (true) Hydraulic Drop Bar Disc Brake (not brifters).

    4. Shifters: SLX-level non-integrated mtb 2X11

    5. Drivetrain: SLX 2X11 boost (26/36T crank, 11-40T cassette) and SLX derailleurs, as pictured in linked vendor's facebook page. Race Face Aeffect 24/36 crankset.

    6. Wheels: 27.5+ with 2.8 or 3.0 tires. (still need to determine, but probably aluminum rims, decent hubs, quality build, lots of spokes - 32 or 36?)

    7. Post and saddle: conventional post and saddle that came with my 2007 Fuel EX7, or possibly one of them Brooks B17s with springs
    I've been putting a list together myself and it is uncanny how similar it is to yours.

    1. Same. Ritchey VentureMax 44mm - not sure if I'll go WCS or Comp.
    2. Same spec. Cane Creek 40 most likely
    3. Same. TRP Hylex with TRP 25 rotors. 160 rear, either 160 or 180 front.
    4. Microshift 10 speed bar end shifters. Shimano MTB compatible version. (trigger shifters clamp size is too small for road bars)
    5. Shimano XT 10 speed front and rear derailleur. I have these already. Not sure if I can rig a way to use the front derailleur which is a top swing, not the side swing model shown in the Facebook photos.
    6. I have set of boost spaced 29" wheels that came with my Niner Jet 9 that I'll use initially. The rims are too narrow and too heavy. I may disassemble them and string the hubs to better 650B rims wide enough for 3" tires.
    7. Some cheap seat post and a Brooks B-17 saddle. Probably a dropper post later on.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    Feel free to rip it apart (and offer better alternatives)
    Gladly!

    1. Ritchey Venturemax bars

    2. Headset, etc, to simultaneously accommodate current fork and future suspension fork (ZS44 ,EC44 39.6m crown race on the suspension fork, "conversion" crown race on the rigid fork)

    3. Brakes: TRP - Hylex (true) Hydraulic Drop Bar Disc Brake (not brifters).

    4. Shifters: SLX-level non-integrated mtb 2X11

    5. Drivetrain: SLX 2X11 boost (26/36T crank, 11-40T cassette) and SLX derailleurs, as pictured in linked vendor's facebook page.

    6. Wheels: 27.5+ with 2.8 or 3.0 tires. (still need to determine, but probably aluminum rims, decent hubs, quality build, lots of spokes - 32 or 36?)

    7. Post and saddle: conventional post and saddle that came with my 2007 Fuel EX7, or possibly one of them Brooks B17s with springs [/INDENT]
    Let me start by saying there's obviously more than one way to skin a cat, and clearly a lot of personal preference involved. Here's my thoughts.

    1. If I was building another dirt drop MTB the only two handlebars I would consider are the Soma Junebug and the On One Midge.

    2. Cane Creek 40 all day

    3. I have two sets of the TRP mechanical disc brakes, both on SS's so no shifters involved. I read the hydro's are pretty good, but Shimano is still the benchmark.

    4. In a world of excellent 1x drivetrains, why do you want 2x11? I'd go 1x11 XT 11-46 or 2x10 XT 11-36. I'm a huge fan of 1x, with an 11-46 cassette and the right chainring for your terrain (probably 32-34t) it will be all the range you need. If your going 2x keep the costs down and use 10 speed. with 2x11 and a 40t cassette there's so much overlap and a massive range. Just way overkill for me.

    5. See #4

    6. Hope or DT350 hubs with WTB Scrapper rims, 32 spokes (these rims are beefy, no need for 36). Solid wheelset.

    7. I had a Brooks Flyer on my first fatbike, it was pretty comfortable on the flats but when I had to do a steep climb and slide forward on the nose of the saddle it was very narrow and hard as a rock. It was also potentially dangerous if you ever slipped and landed on the nose of the saddle for the same reasons. Ultimately I decided it was not ideal for offroad applications and sold it after one season. It looked cool but weighed a ton and ultimately I'm happier on a normal saddle.
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    Another mounting option:

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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    This isn't a science experiment.
    I'm a scientist, not a bike mechanic.

    The fork is not a variable in an equation. But if you insist on the analogy, it is a CONSTANT in an equation chosen by Advocate.
    Sounds more like an adjustable parameter.

    ... it doesn't even need to be stated or second guessed. At least by anyone who has ever built a bike.
    I've never built up a mountain bike. I've built up one road bike, but kept the original fork, so I never gave it a whole lot of consideration to be honest.

    What do you imagine Advocate telling you, exactly? "you can't use suspension forks"? "you must use a 100mm suspension fork"??
    Not sure what this is about.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    1. Ritchey Venturemax bars

    2. Headset, etc, to simultaneously accommodate current fork and future suspension fork (ZS44 ,EC44 39.6m crown race on the suspension fork, "conversion" crown race on the rigid fork)

    3. Brakes: TRP - Hylex (true) Hydraulic Drop Bar Disc Brake (not brifters).

    4. Shifters: SLX-level non-integrated mtb 2X11

    5. Drivetrain: SLX 2X11 boost (26/36T crank, 11-40T cassette) and SLX derailleurs, as pictured in linked vendor's facebook page.

    6. Wheels: 27.5+ with 2.8 or 3.0 tires. (still need to determine, but probably aluminum rims, decent hubs, quality build, lots of spokes - 32 or 36?)

    7. Post and saddle: conventional post and saddle that came with my 2007 Fuel EX7, or possibly one of them Brooks B17s with springs

    [/SIZE]
    1) Bars are very personal/subjective. Try to ride some dirt drop bars at shops or riding friends and get firsthand experience. Read the tutorials on Guitar Ted about dirt drop / gravel bars. Then make a best guess and commit.

    2) Cane Creek 40 is a no brainer. Affordable at retail but also often available at half that via eBay or OEM buyouts at web retailers.

    3) I've never used the Hylex brakes byt they get reasonably good reviews. If you hate the Shimano brifter design, seems logical to go this route.

    4) Welcome to the crux of building a dirt drop rig. MTB shifters can't (without significant DIY) be mounted to drop bars. I suggest you look at Gevenalle products, which integrate the Hylex brakes and levers with a shifter. Some folks like using bar end shifters, though that will either force you to a Tanpan on the rear der and friction front, or retro'ing with 9 speed.

    5) This depends on where you intend to ride. If you expect any bikepacking at all, then I'd stay 2X. There are just two many terrain variables . . 16% uphills, 10 mile slight downhills on pavement w/ tailwinds, etc. I rode 36/22 x 11/36 in Baja and would make the same choice again. I rode 40/30/22 x 11/36 on the GDMBR and would make the same choice again. 1X is fashionable but I don't find it as functional for bikepacking.
    11 speed has gotten so cheap via UK vendors that its a modest difference to 10sp. I like 10 speed on my bikepacking rigs because the chains are less tedious in case of backcountry repair. But the 11sp Di2 24/34 x 11/40 on my trail bike is sure sweet.

    6) DT 350 is an affordable and extremely reliable, widely available choice. Forget about 36H rims; they aren't necessary with the strength of today's components, and by and large aren't even available (for 27.5x3 types of wheels). 36H made sense on road touring bikes in the past, but the more critical issues now are rim width and tubeless compatibility. A DT XM 551, Easton/Raceface Arc 40, or WTB Scraper 40 would all be fine choices to support a 2.8 or 3.0 tire.

    7) stay away from single bolt seat posts. Anything with a two bolt head will do. Seat = personal preference. FWIW, I saw two Brooks saddle rails break in Baja. I'd stick with more typical choices. Ergon SMC3 is popular with some endurance bikepackers.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    3) I've never used the Hylex brakes byt they get reasonably good reviews. If you hate the Shimano brifter design, seems logical to go this route.

    4) Welcome to the crux of building a dirt drop rig. MTB shifters can't (without significant DIY) be mounted to drop bars.

    .... But the 11sp Di2 24/34 x 11/40 on my trail bike is sure sweet.
    I have Ultegra hydraulics/Di2 on the bike pictured above (road, with 30/46 x 11/34(or36 SRAM -- it works!)) and have heard you can use road shifters with XT Di2 derailleurs (back and front) with no problems. I am extremely tempted to do this. The mechanical version of the Ultegra and 105 hydraulic integrated shifters isn't significantly cheaper, so the Di2 tax works out to about $600 for the derailleurs and junction box, battery and cables. If I could figure out how to put the battery in the seat-post and run the wires, I might do it. This would possess the additional merit of having two bikes whose brakes/shifters operate the same way.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    4) Welcome to the crux of building a dirt drop rig. MTB shifters can't (without significant DIY) be mounted to drop bars. I suggest you look at Gevenalle products, which integrate the Hylex brakes and levers with a shifter. Some folks like using bar end shifters, though that will either force you to a Tanpan on the rear der and friction front, or retro'ing with 9 speed.
    Not entirely true. I'm currently building a new MX bike and using Microshift 11 Spd Shimano MTN bar end shifters with a 1x11 XT RD. 11-42 cassette.

    https://www.amazon.com/Microshift-Me...t+11+speed+mtb

    Your LBS can get them through QBP
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  20. #120
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    Leather saddles are good on the concret. Not good in the mountains.

    How about this for a rule,

    If you need a dropper post, forget the leather saddle.

  21. #121
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    My rule is ride what you like. Saddle choice is as personal as it gets. I've been riding Brooks leather saddles for 20 years and I currently have B-17s on my road bike and my gravel bike and a Flyer on my upright bar piddling around town bike. Only my full suspension MTB with a dropper post runs a regular saddle. They work for me. I have a Brooks butt. I already have a well broken in B-17 that I will put on this bike. I don't expect to be doing a lot of technical riding on this bike, but if that changes, I can change my mind.
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    4) Welcome to the crux of building a dirt drop rig. MTB shifters can't (without significant DIY) be mounted to drop bars. I suggest you look at Gevenalle products, which integrate the Hylex brakes and levers with a shifter. Some folks like using bar end shifters, though that will either force you to a Tanpan on the rear der and friction front, or retro'ing with 9 speed.
    I thought about the Gevenalle setup, but I decided they don't make sense on a bike where you'll be in the drops most of the time since they are mainly designed for shifting while on the hoods.
    As noted before, Microshift makes bar end shifters that work with Shimano MTB derailleurs. In fact, they are what Gevenalle uses.
    https://www.gevenalle.com/product/shift-levers/
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  23. #123
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    I'm in complete agreement on the 2x drive train - on a bikepacking bike a 1x makes little sense. If anything, go with a triple. Bikepacking bikes are using on long steep fully loaded climbs, and also on long high-speed paved roads. Get as large a range as you could possibly can!

    Everything else is up to what you like, what's comfortable, and what's durable.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by laffeaux View Post
    I'm in complete agreement on the 2x drive train - on a bikepacking bike a 1x makes little sense. If anything, go with a triple.
    I love the triple on my "skinny" bikepacking bike, but for these Plus bikes, Triple + Boost = empty set. Unless you want to revert a square spindle crank or do some machining on an M627 crank arm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Not entirely true. I'm currently building a new MX bike and using Microshift 11 Spd Shimano MTN bar end shifters with a 1x11 XT RD. 11-42 cassette.

    https://www.amazon.com/Microshift-Me...t+11+speed+mtb

    Your LBS can get them through QBP
    I wouldn't consider those MTB shifters. They are "road" (aka drop bar) shifters that are compatible with MTB derailleurs. My point was that MTB shifters (lie,the SLX ones selected by the poster) have a clamp diameter that won't fit the drop bars he selected.

    Hence my point about this being the crux. All solutions are a compromise to some extent. Common options
    1) Move to SRAM (more cross compatibility between road and MTB ) instead of Shimano, but that's hard for some of us to stomach, And I think you're still screwed on the front der
    2) use third-party bar end shifters, as you've pointed out. Can't shift from the hoods, and shift levers protrude significantly on highly flared bars
    3) use Di2. Functionally perfect, you could even put sprint shift buttons in the drops, but expensive, and problematic for remote/long distance bikepacking (must carry charger, malfunctions are total and repair/replace is a long way off)
    4) use a variation on the bar ends, like the Genevalle or other intermediate mounts that have shown up over the years
    5) use a Tanpan and go 1X (or use a JTEK #7 for the front der). Can be finicky, cable wear may be a concern on prolonged tours.
    6) go 9 speed. Then you only have the front der to worry about. But you lose the clutch rear derailleur, and hydraulic brake options.

    Probably some I'm forgetting. But no great out-of-the-box options.

    I've been waiting 10 years for Shimano to do some sort of touring/gravel group to give us a truly refined setup for STI levers and MTB drivetrain. I'd think with the rise of gravel and related domains in cycling, that they would have done it by now. All "we" are really asking is a single non-series (say "GR700" ) set of STI levers/shifters. Dreamers can dream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    I've been waiting 10 years for Shimano to do some sort of touring/gravel group to give us a truly refined setup for STI levers and MTB drivetrain. I'd think with the rise of gravel and related domains in cycling, that they would have done it by now. All "we" are really asking is a single non-series (say "GR700" ) set of STI levers/shifters. Dreamers can dream.
    I hear ya, but don't hang by your thumbs. I would have thought by now they would have fatbike cranks, nope. How about a direct mount crank? nope.

    I was shocked earlier this year when I discovered they make a wide range 10 speed cassette! It's a Deore level 11-42, but it's cheap and shifts so much better than the Sunrace POS cassette I had been using. And I'm confident the Shimano cassette won't break like my last two Sunrace cassettes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    What about butterfly/trekking bars mounted "backwards"?
    With this configuration, you can mount standard mountain brakes and shifters, and have similar hand and body positions as more conventional drop-bars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I was shocked earlier this year when I discovered they make a wide range 10 speed cassette! It's a Deore level 11-42, but it's cheap and shifts so much better than the Sunrace POS cassette I had been using. And I'm confident the Shimano cassette won't break like my last two Sunrace cassettes.
    Yep, the release of that cassette early last summer was a real boon for 10sp 1X conversions on the cheap. I bought three of them from a German web retailer for $24 each and helped several friends get their aging bikes a new lease on life.

  29. #129
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    SRAM road and MTB shifters are compatible for 10 speed, but not 11 speed. Everything was Exact Actuation but with 11 speed, the MTB stuff changed to X-Actuation and they are not intercompatible. In theory, you can use 11 speed shifters with 10 speed MTB rear derailleurs, but I have not actually seen it done.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    a clamp diameter that won't fit the drop bars he selected.

    1) Move to SRAM , but that's hard for some of us to stomach,

    shift levers protrude significantly on highly flared bars

    6) go 9 speed. Then you only have the front der to worry about. But you lose the clutch rear derailleur, and hydraulic brake options.

    .
    Dont buy a piece of sram.

    My bar end shifters are not completely tight. To prevent my bar ends from breaking when they hit the ground,they are just lose enough to twist, and let the bar get bent instead of the shifter breaking. Would you rather ride home with a bent bar or a broken shifter that does not work?

    https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...6&category=689 My 9 speed long cage derailleur works with 9, 10, and 11 speed cogs. It has a clutch. I dont recall if it is 771 or 772. Friction bar ends, Shimano, work with 9, and 10, My friction sun tour power thumb shifters work with 11 speed and 42 tooth, and the 9 speed derailleur. With 11 speeds you have about a half a mm of adjustment to spare.
    Power Ratchet Thumbshifters — Interloc Racing Design / IRD IRD makes thumb shifters for drop bars.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    What about butterfly/trekking bars mounted "backwards"?
    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    With this configuration, you can mount standard mountain brakes and shifters, and have similar hand and body positions as more conventional drop-bars.
    Here's a photo of a Genetic Zygote trekking bar:
    Just ordered an Advocate Cycles frame ...-geneticzygote.jpg

    If you mount those backwards, your hand position at the shift/brake lever location will be 6+ inches forward of your stem clamp, at a 17deg "reverse" sweep (ie, outer edge of wrist is further forward than inside edge, the exact opposite of what you want for comfort) and your hands will be very close together (similar to riding about a 400-440mm riser bar, in this age of 720-800mm bars). I can't imagine a more unstable, uncomfortable hand position.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...6&category=689 My 9 speed long cage derailleur works with 9, 10, and 11 speed cogs. It has a clutch. I dont recall if it is 771 or 772.
    You're mistaken about the clutch. None of the 9sp Shimano derailleurs had a clutch.

    With some tedium and expense, one can retrofit a clutch lower pulley arm assembly from a 10sp derailleur onto a 9sp derailleur body. Or you can use a 10sp Shimano clutch der with 9sp SRAM shifters (and any 9sp cog). But there are no off-the-shelf Shimano 9sp clutch derailleurs.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Yep, the release of that cassette early last summer was a real boon for 10sp 1X conversions on the cheap. I bought three of them from a German web retailer for $24 each and helped several friends get their aging bikes a new lease on life.
    Got a link to the 11 42, Shimano 10 speed casette?



  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    You're mistaken about the clutch. None of the 9sp Shimano derailleurs had a clutch.
    Oh. My m800 likes to jerk froward and lose tension on the chain. My m772 shadow keeps tension,and does not jerk forward. If there is no clutch, why the better tension?

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Got a link to the 11 42, Shimano 10 speed casette?
    I haven't seen them much domestically in the US for some odd reason, but they are readily available in Germany (and cheap! $22.50). But since all the German outfits charge flat rate shipping ~ $25-ish, you really need to aggregate several things into an order. Schwalbe and Continental tires are generally very cheap in Germany.

    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...ssette-p43864/

    EDIT: the price is about $30 not $22.50 (22.50 price was for 12-28)

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Oh. My m800 likes to jerk froward and lose tension on the chain. My m772 shadow keeps tension,and does not jerk forward. If there is no clutch, why the better tension?
    Stronger spring most likely. But very different from a clutch. On the clutch models there is a physical lever that you flip (disengage to remove wheel) which dramatically increases chain tension.

    If you haven't actually ridden a clutch der bike, its hard to understand/appreciate. But its one of those things you didn't know you need, until you use it, and then you can't live without it. Critical for 1X setups, but also (nearly) eliminates dropped chains on 2X and significantly quiets the drivetrain noise.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Here's a photo of a Genetic Zygote trekking bar:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	GeneticZygote.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	25.7 KB 
ID:	1169869

    If you mount those backwards, your hand position at the shift/brake lever location will be 6+ inches forward of your stem clamp, at a 17deg "reverse" sweep (ie, outer edge of wrist is further forward than inside edge, the exact opposite of what you want for comfort) and your hands will be very close together (similar to riding about a 400-440mm riser bar, in this age of 720-800mm bars). I can't imagine a more unstable, uncomfortable hand position.
    Mine are shaped a bit differently, so that the region proximal to where the stem clamps resembles a mtn bike flat bar. I was suggesting one could mount them there.

    (I'm not planning on doing this, so you don't have to talk me out of it.)

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    But its one of those things you didn't know you need, until you use it, and then you can't live without it. Critical for 1X setups, but also (nearly) eliminates dropped chains on 2X and significantly quiets the drivetrain noise.
    Or one of those things that you think is cool until you switch back to a bike that doesn't have it and really how much easier the old stuff shifts.

    I have clutch on a couple of bikes, and for shorter rides it's fine. I did a big ride that cover ~60 with 10,000 feet of vertical. By the end of the day I was regularly riding in the wrong gear because it hurt my thumbs too much to shift the bike. Admittedly, this is less a clutch issue and more of an issue with the springs being way too strong on newer derailleurs. I much prefer the "light action" shifting of the old m953 deraillers to the more modern "require a ton of effort" derailleurs.

    I still ride bikes regularly with 3x9, 2x10, and 2x11. The difference isn't that great between any of them. The 3x9 still has the biggest range, and I use all of the gears (including the 46-11 big combo).
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by laffeaux View Post
    I have clutch on a couple of bikes, and for shorter rides it's fine. I did a big ride that cover ~60 with 10,000 feet of vertical. By the end of the day I was regularly riding in the wrong gear because it hurt my thumbs too much to shift the bike. Admittedly, this is less a clutch issue and more of an issue with the springs being way too strong on newer derailleurs. I much prefer the "light action" shifting of the old m953 deraillers to the more modern "require a ton of effort" derailleurs.
    If it was bothering you, and you're convinced the clutch is the culprit, why wouldn't you just flip the clutch lever to off?

  40. #140
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    Looks like only Small and X-Small are remaining on sale.
    ptarmigan hardcore

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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    If it was bothering you, and you're convinced the clutch is the culprit, why wouldn't you just flip the clutch lever to off?
    It's the spring tension on the clutch derailleurs. In both the on and off positions, the spring tension is the same - way too strong.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Got a link to the 11 42, Shimano 10 speed casette?
    QBP has them in stock. Shimano CS-HG50 10-Speed Cassette.

    Ask your LBS to get them for you. No, they can't match the overseas price because Shimano hates bike shops.
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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Co-opski View Post
    Looks like only Small and X-Small are remaining on sale.
    Glad I jumped when I did. There were 3 Large left when I ordered mine Sunday night.
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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Stronger spring most likely. But very different from a clutch. On the clutch models there is a physical lever that you flip (disengage to remove wheel) which dramatically increases chain tension.

    If you haven't actually ridden a clutch der bike, its hard to understand/appreciate. But its one of those things you didn't know you need, until you use it, and then you can't live without it. Critical for 1X setups, but also (nearly) eliminates dropped chains on 2X and significantly quiets the drivetrain noise.
    Guess I learned something today. I went from 7 to 9, and now starting in on some 11. missed out on 8 and 10.
    m800 is a little pale compared to m772. I guess a stronger spring is a good thing.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    QBP has them in stock. Shimano CS-HG50 10-Speed Cassette.

    Ask your LBS to get them for you. No, they can't match the overseas price because Shimano hates bike shops.
    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...ssette-p43864/
    Got any other overseas parts stores to look at
    And I do have a couple of other things I need to order.

    Tubus racks, dt swiss hubs, and rohloff hubs are less money on the German kink.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Got a link to the 11 42, Shimano 10 speed casette?
    I got one on my fatbike now. LBS got it from QBP.
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  47. #147
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    Shimano - 11 Speed road with MTB deraiileurs

    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    SRAM road and MTB shifters are compatible for 10 speed, but not 11 speed. Everything was Exact Actuation but with 11 speed, the MTB stuff changed to X-Actuation and they are not intercompatible. In theory, you can use 11 speed shifters with 10 speed MTB rear derailleurs, but I have not actually seen it done.

    It most certainly will work. I run a WTC Tanpan to change the cable pull with the rear derailleur but works like butter. No issues. For those looking for a 10 speed cassette that is 11-40/42/44/46/50, look at what Sun Race has to offer. I've had great success in 10 speed and 11 speed configurations.
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  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTSHANK View Post
    It most certainly will work. I run a WTC Tanpan to change the cable pull with the rear derailleur but works like butter. No issues. For those looking for a 10 speed cassette that is 11-40/42/44/46/50, look at what Sun Race has to offer. I've had great success in 10 speed and 11 speed configurations.
    Please clarify. What components are you saying will work?
    I know that the Tanpan will make Shimano road shifters work with Shimano MTB rear derailleurs, but I have not heard of anyone doing that with SRAM 11 speed.
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  49. #149
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    I got a reply from Tim Kreuger, owner of Advocate Cycles today about the specs for building up the frame.

    "Sorry for that, you are right, we need to get that info up!

    Headtube 44mm straight use ZS44/EC44/30 for a headset
    Seatpost 31.6mm
    BB 73mm English Thread
    Front axle 15x110
    Rear axle 12x148
    FD Shimano Front pull, 34.9 LOW clamp.
    Seat collar 34.9
    Fork 28.6mm straight, 30.0mm crown race
    Thanks,
    Tim"

    and then for a follow up about using a suspension fork and a different front derailleur:

    "Yes, for sure on the sus fork. It can take a 120mm travel, 29/27+ fork with 51mm offset.

    There is cable routing for a top entry FD, although they dont work as nicely."
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  50. #150
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    Thanks for posting that follow-up.

    What did they say about Di2?

  51. #151
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    Thanks for posting his response. I emailed him for the specs of their full build on the dropbar seldom seen and haven't heard anything. I'm going to build mine rigid 27.5 3.0 tire. I would really like to know what stem a medium comes with if you buy the whole bike. It could get expensive guessing stem sizes purchasing them one at a time until I find one that works for me.

    Side note, I'm going to use TRP mechanical disk brakes and use brifters on it. But I have a pair of Ultegra 2 x 9's that I'd like to make use of. 9 speed is enough if I'm going to do a double front. I also have a sram clutched 10 speed derailleur I'd like to make use of. Anyone know if these would interface together? Also finding a rear cassette I only see sun race and some other off brand stuff in a 11/40. Would I regret this decision if I have to use a crappy cassette? Making use of them would speed up my build as I don't have the bike budget to go crazy, and its really only going to be used as a second bang around bike and maybe a overnighter or two bikepacking rig. thanks.

  52. #152
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    I've been on a stock Seldom Seen Drop bar for a month now. Here's what I like, Ergon saddle is really nice, fun bike on the gravel/flowy trails. It's stiff, and tough. Frame has plenty mounts for water.

    On tight switchbacks and steep technical sections it's cumbersome at best. I get a tiny bit of toe overlap. (Large frame, 6'2" rider) Didn't care for the Chunk Light tire on the rear. Went with a Maxxis Treadlite 2.2. It's much smaller than the 2.35 Chunk Light which didn't leave much clearance, and rolls much faster. Haven't been able to dial in the shifting, but I haven't spent much time on it either. It really needs either hydraulic brakes or hybrids. Not a fan of the BB7 especially when riding trails.

    For going out and just riding, it's a blast! Load up and wander around till your heart's content.

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by triathloner View Post
    Thanks for posting his response. I emailed him for the specs of their full build on the dropbar seldom seen and haven't heard anything. I'm going to build mine rigid 27.5 3.0 tire. I would really like to know what stem a medium comes with if you buy the whole bike. It could get expensive guessing stem sizes purchasing them one at a time until I find one that works for me.

    Side note, I'm going to use TRP mechanical disk brakes and use brifters on it. But I have a pair of Ultegra 2 x 9's that I'd like to make use of. 9 speed is enough if I'm going to do a double front. I also have a sram clutched 10 speed derailleur I'd like to make use of. Anyone know if these would interface together? Also finding a rear cassette I only see sun race and some other off brand stuff in a 11/40. Would I regret this decision if I have to use a crappy cassette? Making use of them would speed up my build as I don't have the bike budget to go crazy, and its really only going to be used as a second bang around bike and maybe a overnighter or two bikepacking rig. thanks.
    You may want to send another email, but knowing what length stem comes on the standard bill won't necessarily tell you what stem you would need for your bike to fit you. Many bike shops have a stem sizing device that can be set up at different lengths and angles to help you find the best fit for you.

    Shimano 9 speed shifters are not going to work right with a SRAM 10 speed derailleur, but it looks like a J-Tek Shiftmate 6 might make it work.

    Sunrace makes the only 9 speed 11-40 cassette that I am aware of. My experiences with Sunrace cassettes has been good.

    Good luck with your build!
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  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    My experiences with Sunrace cassettes has been good.

    Good luck with your build!
    My experience with Sunrace cassettes has been quite the opposite. The shifting was always quite poor with an XT derailleur, and the last two broke.
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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde250 View Post
    Didn't care for the Chunk Light tire on the rear. Went with a Maxxis Treadlite 2.2. It's much smaller than the 2.35 Chunk Light which didn't leave much clearance, and rolls much faster. .
    Apparently your bike is configured for 29er wheels. Can you further comment on the tire clearance in the rear? Probably too late for a photo of the 2.35 Chunk in the chainstay/BB area?

    Can you tell us some additional details of your build? Specifically:
    1) cranks (boost?) and chainring size and corresponding clearance at chainstay
    2) what shifter/derailleur setup? 2X w/ front der?

    Thanks!

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    Shimano 9 speed shifters are not going to work right with a SRAM 10 speed derailleur, but it looks like a J-Tek Shiftmate 6 might make it work.
    You're correct about the 9sp Shimano shifter being incompatible with a 10sp SRAM rear. Incidentally, the opposite case (Shimano 10sp der and SRAM 9sp shifter) actually *does* work due to a coincidental similarity in their cable pull ratio.

    As for the JTEK, you're wrong (sorry, striving for accuracy, not d&*#-iness!). A #6 will only adapt the Ultegra 9sp shifters to a SRAM 9sp MTB der, not 10sp. Or a 10sp Ultegra to 10sp SRAM. But perhaps even better, the #6 Shiftmate *will* adapt Shimano 9sp road brifter to Shimano 10sp MTB der. The Shimano 10sp MTB ders are arguably better than the SRAMs (though this is admittedly subjective).

    EDIT: oops, made my own mistake above. With a 9sp cassette, the 9sp Ultegra + #6 Shiftmate *will* shift a 10sp SRAM 1:1 rear der. Too many permutations!

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    FD Shimano Front pull, 34.9 LOW clamp.
    There is cable routing for a top entry FD, although they dont work as nicely."
    Nice of Tim to finally answer someone's email.

    Unfortunately this creates more questions than it answers w.r.t. front shifting.

    To the best of my knowledge, Shimano does not make a low-clamp 34.9 side swing (= front pull) front derailleur which is SPACED FOR BOOST CRANK CHAINLINE. So is Tim implying we should be using non-Boost cranks? Or is he suggesting we use a non-boost FD with a boost crank and just accept the impact on shifting? If the former (non-Boost cranks) what is the chainring clearance we're working with?

    Why must it be low-clamp? Is there interference with a bottle cage braze-on? This matters because one way to address my boost/non-boost point above is to use a direct mount adapter (QBP # FS1328 like this) which positions a conventional non-Boost FD appropriately for a boost chainline. I use one on my Timberjack w/ a side-swing FD and Boost 2X cranks and shifting is flawless. But it seems Tim is saying we can't use such an adapter?

    Lastly, his front der comments completely ignore the obvious follow-up question: how do you shift that FD from a drop bar? We've highlight some options on this thread, but did Tim/Advocate even consider this? Is their Facebook photo with a 105 brifter and an SLX side-swing FD ultimately "bogus" in this regard (ie, that bike won't actually shift as shown)?

    Any perceived snarkiness is directed to Tim not Bluesdawg, fwiw. @Bluesdawg is just the proverbial messenger!

  58. #158
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    FWIW, the 2017 and 2018 builds for Salsa Fargo use the SRAM GX front and rear derailleurs with the integrated Apex shifters and mechanical brakes.

    So for anyone who wants "native" compatibility between integrated drop bar brifters and clutch MTB rear derailleurs and MTB cranks and MTB front derailleurs, that would seem the path least fraught with complications.

    The one "gotcha" with that approach is you can't get the FD in a Boost chainline, *if* a high direct mount clamp adapter won't fit, as Tim's quoted answers above imply.

  59. #159
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    I showed my wife the frame today.

    Her reply was that it is a "hideous" color and that I should have paid the $1K for the green frame.


  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I showed my wife the frame today.

    Her reply was that it is a "hideous" color and that I should have paid the $1K for the green frame.

    Well $150 will get it powder coated in any color she wants.

  61. #161
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    I said the same thing. I am half-tempted, but it seems wrong somehow.

  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    FWIW, the 2017 and 2018 builds for Salsa Fargo use the SRAM GX front and rear derailleurs with the integrated Apex shifters and mechanical brakes.

    So for anyone who wants "native" compatibility between integrated drop bar brifters and clutch MTB rear derailleurs and MTB cranks and MTB front derailleurs, that would seem the path least fraught with complications.

    The one "gotcha" with that approach is you can't get the FD in a Boost chainline, *if* a high direct mount clamp adapter won't fit, as Tim's quoted answers above imply.
    That's probably a great setup. My 2016 Fargo is X9 with Apex. I like the SRAM brifters more than Shimano.

    I believe Problem Solvers might solve any mount problems. That's another QBP company and what mounts the front derailleur on recent Fargo factory builds.

    FYI. The Problem Solvers front derailleur mount I have requires washers for the bottle cages I have.


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  63. #163
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    What exactly is a Boost front derailleur? I can't recall working on a front derailleur that couldn't accommodate a 3mm shift outwards of the chainrings by adjusting the limit screws. Is there something I'm not considering?
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  64. #164
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    I think he means the clamp.

    can't get the FD in a Boost chainline
    I'm reading this as

    "can't position the FD within a Boost chainline"

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I think he means the clamp.



    I'm reading this as

    "can't position the FD within a Boost chainline"
    No. I think he's saying you can't get a FD that meets the stated spec that is also designated as made for Boost spacing. That probably would mostly involve a change to the clamp or other mounting method. But I'm wondering why it would be necessary since most derailleurs could easily handle a chainline 3mm wider.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  66. #166
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    You're all right. Most FD's, especially the side-swing models, should be able to handle a chainline 3mm further outboard than spec. I haven't A:B compared two setups to judge the impact on shifting performance in this specific case. In past experience with 45mm chainline road derailleurs fit to 47.5mm or 50mm chainline MTB cranks on my touring bikes there was definitely a tangible negative consequence, although those FD's had a vertical element to their articulation, whereas the recent MTB side swing models seem purely horizontal in their movement. Still, its worth noting that the Problem Solvers high direct adapter clamps come in both 26mm (FS1323) and 29mm (FS1328) offset for non-boost and boost,respectively, so there's at least one example of someone that thinks the 3mm matters.

    My primary point/complaint is that Tim's answers are still somewhat incomplete. He made a point to emphasize low clamp, but didn't say why. Maybe this means a native high clamp won't fit. But maybe a direct mount with clamp adapter will (clamp is in different location than native high clamp model). The flat bar Seldom Seen photos on their website see to show a high clamp model . . . what is different about the drop bar that would preclude their use?

    And, of course, in recommending a side swing FD (which is a Shimano-only MTB product) for a drop bar bike, it raises the obvious question of how one intends to shift that FD. No comment from Advocate on that.

    Basically I'm frustrated that such fundamental information needs to become a pulling-teeth situation.

  67. #167
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    This, and the color, might be why they are unloading the frames for $350 instead of selling built-up drop-bar bikes.

  68. #168
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    Maybe you should simply ask him. I realize that there have been some unanswered emails, but he did reply to mine last week. I get the impression that the office staff at Advocate consists of not much more than Tim and his wife. Maybe they had been away from the office for a while. I don't know. But if I have questions about the frame I bought, I will ask them.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  69. #169
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    Does a 3 ring derailleur move out a little more than a 2 ring derailleur?

    1 x 11 sounds better all the time, no?

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    If you can make it work riding on dirt in the hoods with a non-flared bar, go for it. But generally, the rougher the terrain gets, the more that being in the drops is going to offer better control. And the more you're riding in the drops, the more you'll probably appreciate a wider, flared bar for increased stability and wrist clearance.

    It might seem weird transitioning from a more 'roadie' approach to drop bars, where you are generally spending your time in the hoods, but when you're bombing down some singletrack and negotiating obstacles, etc. the benefits of a dirt-specific drop bar will start to make sense. And the general rule of thumb is that you want to position the bar high enough that when your hands are in the drops, they are about at the height that they would be on a flat mtn bar. Riding dirt on a purpose-built dirt drop bike can be a blast.

    And if you decide to go down that path, I would also recommend checking out the Some Junebug bar, and my current favorite, the Ritchey VentureMax.

    Great advice! I'm wondering if you've had any experience using Di2 on these flared bars. Seems like there might be some issues getting your fingers in the right position.
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  71. #171
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    My frame came on Saturday. I actually don't mind the color, accessorize it properly and it should look decent. I'm excited to get it build up. My frame didn't come with the frame bag. I sent an email and I'm hoping they get back to me on it. I am building this bike to use for bikepacking and getting the frame bag was what pushed me over the edge to buy it, so I hope I hear back and get one shipped to me. I asked for specs last week and didn't hear from them yet. Fingers crossed.

  72. #172
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    Mine just arrived. No frame bag with mine, either.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    Great advice! I'm wondering if you've had any experience using Di2 on these flared bars. Seems like there might be some issues getting your fingers in the right position.
    You can always add Di2 sprinter buttons anywhere you want on the drops if you want to optimize shifting locations for use while in the drops.

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    You can always add Di2 sprinter buttons anywhere you want on the drops if you want to optimize shifting locations for use while in the drops.
    Thanks and yes, I have these on my roadie. I have to get more creative about the placement because putting them toward the center where they are actuated by the thumb is just unnatural and a bit awkward. Just me I guess.
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  75. #175
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    Frustrating! I want the bag, or I want to return the frame, the bag clinched it. Going on another day with no response from them. If anyone has a phone number for them I want it.

  76. #176
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    I was surprised to see that one came with wgscott's frame. Still a great price on the frame, but yeah, I was hoping it would come with the bag. I just sent an email to Tim asking about that and the crank/derailleur issues that InertiaMan raised. We'll see what happens.

  77. #177
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    InertiaMan,

    M7000 SLX drivetrain. Rear has a Jtek adaptor. 11-42 cassette with a standard 2x10 mt crank. I am assuming its a boost crank, but I'll check for sure when I get home

    105 shifters.
    https://www.facebook.com/advocatecyc...type=3&theater

    Not my pictures, but the best I could find.

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde250 View Post
    InertiaMan,

    M7000 SLX drivetrain. Rear has a Jtek adaptor. 11-42 cassette with a standard 2x10 mt crank. I am assuming its a boost crank, but I'll check for sure when I get home

    105 shifters.
    https://www.facebook.com/advocatecyc...type=3&theater

    Not my pictures, but the best I could find.
    So your left 105 brifter is shifting a stock SLX 2X side-swing front derailleur with no issues?

    EDIT: the easy way to determine if it is Boost crank is to look at the inboard side of the driveside crank arm. There is p/n printing adjacent to the pedal hole. It will say FC-M7000-B if it is boost (-B not there if not boost).

  79. #179
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    I just tried a quick fitup of a Shimano XT Down Swing 2x10 front derailleur on the Large Seldom Seen frame. No go. The clamp needs to be right where the lower bottle cage mounting bolt on the seat tube is. So at this point, the only part of my used XT 2x10 group that I could use on this bike would be the rear derailleur. That's too many compromises for too little gain, so the drivetrain choice is wide open again. I'll take my time deciding as the frame is now going back in the box until after Christmas.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  80. #180
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    The SLX front-entry front derailleur blends the cable nicely out from under the Cedaero frame bag
    I'm unable to figure out what the hell that is.

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I'm unable to figure out what the hell that is.
    FD-M7020-11-L
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  82. #182
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    I like the color just fine. I think it's going to build up into a fine looking bicycle. It will look even better when it's covered in dust and splattered with mud.

    box by Benny Watson, on Flickr

    undertree by Benny Watson, on Flickr
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  83. #183
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    The color looks like its military issue for Iraq and Afghanistan. Get a desert digital camo frame bag and you're good to go for stealth desert missions!

  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    I just tried a quick fitup of a Shimano XT Down Swing 2x10 front derailleur on the Large Seldom Seen frame. No go. The clamp needs to be right where the lower bottle cage mounting bolt on the seat tube is.
    I did a similar experiment w/ a direct-mount clamp adapter, and it overlaps the lowest bottle cage braze-on by about 1/4".

    Seems like a poor design choice . . . . I can't imagine what problem is solved, or what benefit is provided, by not placing the braze-ons slightly higher. But the choice clearly does create a problem: no high clamp FD and no direct-mount adapter clamps (which are VERY useful to create proper boost spacing, fit Di2 front ders, allow extremely easy FD removal/install during travel packing, etc). So we gave up all those benefits for ????

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    Thanks!

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    So we gave up all those benefits for ????
    Likely more/better clearance for the frame bag.

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    I did a similar experiment w/ a direct-mount clamp adapter, and it overlaps the lowest bottle cage braze-on by about 1/4".

    Seems like a poor design choice . . . . I can't imagine what problem is solved, or what benefit is provided, by not placing the braze-ons slightly higher. But the choice clearly does create a problem: no high clamp FD and no direct-mount adapter clamps (which are VERY useful to create proper boost spacing, fit Di2 front ders, allow extremely easy FD removal/install during travel packing, etc). So we gave up all those benefits for ????
    So you have a frameset yourself? I never knew that.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  88. #188
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    It's a boost slx crankset. 105 shifter works with the slx 11speed fd. The cable is routed on the downtube and pull's from the front of the bike.
    Last edited by Clyde250; 1 Week Ago at 08:58 PM. Reason: Spelling error

  89. #189
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    My requirements for bicycle frame color begin and end with "don't be orange".
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  90. #190
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    This is pale orange.

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde250 View Post
    105 shifter works with the slx 11speed fd.
    Can you expound a bit on "works"?

    Does it make the shift in one stroke? Or do you need to cumulatively do all three (low trim, main shift, high trim) on the 105 lever to get sufficient movement to make the shift? And once shifted, do you have full range of the chain on the cassette without chain rub on the FD cage?

    I have an M7000 shifter and an ST-RS685 shifter here, and I measured the cable pull on them. The 7000 pulls about 10mm in one stroke. The RS658 (same exact shifting cable-pull ratio at 5800 11sp) pulls only about 5mm on the main shift movement and 7mm cumulatively across the extremes of low trim to main shift to high trim.

    Hence my curiosity how your 5800 lever could be shifting well w/ the SLX FD? If its pulling ~30-50% less cable than intended for the FD?

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    This is pale orange.
    Well, it's not gator/tiger/volunteer orange, and that's what matters to this Dawg.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

  93. #193
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    Coming up on a week with no response from advocates/krueger outdoors about lack of frame bag. I see a lot of haydukes and the watchtower's on the trails, I'm curious how others have found their service. Or lack of service. What if someone has a warranty issue?

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by triathloner View Post
    Coming up on a week with no response from advocates/krueger outdoors about lack of frame bag. I see a lot of haydukes and the watchtower's on the trails, I'm curious how others have found their service. Or lack of service. What if someone has a warranty issue?
    I like the bike. Tim/Advocate are definitely slow to respond and need to learn a lot more about customer service.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  95. #195
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    [QU"A Gevenalle GX 11-speed thumb shifter has been paired to a Shimano XT mountain bike rear derailleur and a wide range 11-42t SRAM cassette. This is one of my favourite ways to hook up mountain bike derailleurs to road handlebars because its just so clean and simple"

    https://www.cyclingabout.com/fern-ch...epacking-bags/

    Is this usefull?

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Is this usefull?
    A known option. Already referenced in post 117 and 125 above.

  97. #197
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    Yeah, I think we had those a few dozen posts previous. There is also the hydraulic version I have an eye on:

    https://www.gevenalle.com/product/hydraulic/

    I think however if I am going to pay $500 for this, it will be Ultegra Di2.

  98. #198
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    If anyone is interested in a Fox 34 Performance 27.5+/29 boost fork for their Seldom Seen, shoot me a pm. Mine is in perfect shape, but the steerer is 187mm, so would only fit the M, S or XS models of SS.

  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by triathloner View Post
    I'm curious how others have found their service. Or lack of service. What if someone has a warranty issue?
    Tim called me back, once, about 5 weeks ago after I had called 10 or 15 times in one day. Since then, no response to any inquiry, regardless of communication medium.

    Same thing w/ another friend who bought multiple frames. No shipping notification, nothing shipped for 2+ weeks (and this was weeks *before* the Thanksgiving break). Then one day frames just show up.

    Doesn't bode well for any warranty support in the future, or *any* support really. Or for the sustainability of his business.

  100. #200
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    I had plenty of notification of the shipping status of my frame, but other than one reply to a question a couple of weeks ago to my second request for info followed by a prompt reply to a followup question, I have not had any feedback from Advocate. I am not at all impressed by their customer support at this point. I hope there is some good reason for what I hope turns out to be a temporary lapse in response. But at this point I am concerned.
    There's only two things in life (but I forget what they are). - John Hiatt

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