29er rider here. Plus really caught my attention when I thought about bashing my way through rocks in PA. Bigger tires would be awesome. They were... for that.
Beyond the rock bashing, though, hauling that extra tire weight made the bike feel less lively. Yes, it felt stable. ...too stable.
Beyond my usual 29x2.3-2.5 I tried 26x4.0, 26x4.8, 29x3, and 27.5x3. They all have good points, but the "normal" 29er wins for most of my riding. If I decide I need more tire, I'll just go fat. Hauling the weight of plus, without the float of fat is just too big of a compromise.
Thank you bike industry for options.
Come on! The whole point of MTBR is to fight about stuff like this.
Everyone who has replied so far has lost my respect. Nobody has yet called the OP a troll, asked if he adjusted tire pressure down to 1/10 of a PSI, or said his/her trails are too tame/lame for plus tires. And that's just the low hanging fruit!
Come on! The whole point of MTBR is to fight about stuff like this.
Everyone who has replied so far has lost my respect. Nobody has yet called the OP a troll, asked if he adjusted tire pressure down to 1/10 of a PSI, or said his/her trails are too tame/lame for plus tires. And that's just the low hanging fruit!
Hey can't everyone start turning over a new leaf? Oh wait it's MTBR lol. And talk about us, your the one who worships 29+ yet is only harassing us for being nice??? WTF is that about, your slacking!
All seriousness though, it is nice that this thread hasn't turned into an argument yet. The joys of riding season coming back around, people are happy just to be riding again [emoji14]
I love riding with control. Putting the bike where you want, when you want and how you want. And for sure, control and speed are related. That said, it's not hard to see that many put the emphasis on speed first. And while speed has it's own reward, it's just one of many sensations that create our experience. If you over emphasize it, becoming all yang and no yin - well, you have a good chance of missing a lot; boosting off that root, hitting that jump, a quick fun manual or even a small break to take in a view. You are in a dance with the terrain, getting feedback and sometimes leading and sometimes being led but always trying to keep the flow and be dynamic - it's fun so what's the rush? I think it's great that more people have recognized there's more to riding than just measuring against the stop watch. Just as making love is about the journey and the dance, not besting your previous PR - I think we could all benefit from putting more of that intention and mindset into our riding.
This is a post I can totally respect. While I definitely enjoy the plus tires (and just put the 29" wheels back on for a comparison,) I can see why they wouldn't be for everyone.
Ride what makes you smile.
If the world of MTB riding would have started out with 2.8-3.0 tires years ago (what it should have been in the first place in my opinion) and then all of sudden someone in the bike industry came out with bikes that only supported 2.0 - 2.25 tires I think a different conversation would be taking place. The complaints would be...harsher ride, less traction, not as stable, doesn't roll over rocks/roots as well etc.
If the world of MTB riding would have started out with 2.8-3.0 tires years ago (what it should have been in the first place in my opinion) and then all of sudden someone in the bike industry came out with bikes that only supported 2.0 - 2.25 tires I think a different conversation would be taking place...
Just picked up a Big Honzo and find it to be a really fun bike for western Colorado as long as the ride is under two hours. For longer rides or riding with a fast group my Turner Czar is still the one I grab. Both super fun but in the end a hard tail is still " hard" on my body.
Great timing on your post, thanks! I'm looking around for my next bike and the BH is on my very short list. In fact if I stay with a HT, that's almost certainly the one. But considering I'm a single-bike guy in my 50s I'm also beginning to reconsider a FS Plus.
So I went to Moab and took both my bikes. My Titanium 29er rigid hardtail with thudbuster, carbon fork, a 3 inch chupa up front and a 2.35 maxxis in back. This was to be my White Rim in a day bike.
I also took my Trek Stache with dropper, Manitou pro fork and a Maxxis DHF up front and vee tire out back.
Klondike trails, Navajo Rocks, Dead horse state park and white rim. Plus a ride up near Duck Creek on the way home.
I put in over 200 miles for the week.
Every day I rode the Stache except for the White Rim ride.
The other people in my group had a mix of 26er full suspension and 29er full suspension bikes.
Half the riders were better than me and half were not. The Stache was the killer bike for this trip even though it isn't full suspension. Much more secure and better traction than the other rigs. I couldn't see myself trading in my stache for any other wheel size even if it involved full suspension which is nice for the bumpy and lumpy moab terrain.
I thought my rigid 29er would be the bomb for the white rim trail in a day ride but after I finished I was pretty beat up. If I had to do it all over again It would be nice to take the Stache with a light wheel set and a pair of Chupacabra tires. I would even add a thudbuster to it since a dropper is not needed on the white rim.
For my Duck Creek ride, I was faced with stream crossings, gooey mud and stretches of snow, plus some pavement to finish. I can't think of another wheel size that would have taken all thses conditions in so well as my Stache setup. It rolled well, dealt with the mud and went through the snow with aplomb.
I used to think like Bigjunk1. I would only add upgrades to my x-country hard tail to make it lighter and took pleasure in beating my friends up hills (or anywhere I could) ...I guess I still do that. LOL. For this reason my first FS bike was a x-country 29er. Mountain biking to me WAS cross country! (somewhat single minded I know.) Downhill, Enduro, and any other type of biking didn't exist to me.
But then I started taking that x-country FS bike on trails that were just not suited for a cross-country type of bike. Big drops, jumps, large rock gardens at speed, etc... That's when I realized a light weight and skinny tires are NOT FAST everywhere and I was not as fast as my friends on trail bikes and enduro bikes (save the climbs). So I upgraded to a Stumpjumper 6fattie and am beating PR's on technical climbs and all downhills. I'm sure it's not as fast on some non-technical trails but I don't ride those trails often.
3.0 plus tires and 150mm travel has been a huge "upgrade" for me! I may pick up a set of 29er wheels down the road still but I won't be going back.
Must have had some heavy ass rims and tires . My b+ 3.0 (true) are only a couple hundred grams heavier than my 29er tires. Wheel weight is about the same. My fat bike on 4.7s..... Theres a big jump [emoji14]
Plus isn't for everyone that's for sure, like you said, great to have options. Plus bikes definitely aren't for weight weenies. I like 'em wider myself. I don't care about being ultra fast and light though. I like traction and stability myself, I don't whip my stuff around or get "rowdy". Comfort and being able to go faster without tires breaking loose with my fat ass on them.
I agree on the 29er plus (thought only rode one with about 2.8 tires). Just lacking in so many areas to me. Feels like my fat bike but more flexy, still turned like a bus and accelerated like crap.
So it's b+ 3.0 and fat 4.7 for me. B+ is treated like my 29er it replaced. Not ridden in muddy,snowy nasty conditions. That's what the fatty is for.
I dunno about 8 speed, but 11-46 10 speed would have been nice, would have saved me a 1x11 conversion on a brand new bike because I couldn't go any lower on chain rings.
Well, with all these options, I suppose it's nice to feel somewhat settled on what you prefer. You make some great points about each and it makes me realize how much is involved as variables. Riding style and terrain, variations in what and where we ride, how many other bikes or tire set up's are at our disposal and what we were riding before that we loved or barely endured. I just made a new choice myself in this new world of bikes, last bike purchase in 2003.
I still have a rigid twenty six year old steel bike and a 16 year old al. hardtail both as 26". Hoping I'll like the cush of 27.5 + on a new steel hardtail and the improvements in a modern front sus versus an entry level fork from the late 1990's.
Me at 56 years old, I think this bike will accomplish everything expected. In the short time of ownership thus far, I'm having more fun and feeling like it fits me better and offers comfort and confidence.
Much of what I learn and read of bikes here helped me zero in on what I figured was the ideal for me. I narrowed a list to the Nail Trail 6, Dragon sport , Dragonslayer sport or Pine Mtn one, latter 3 in the 27.5+ . Local selection and a sale price pushed me to ride the Pine mtn and it felt right.
Horses for courses along with personal preference I suppose. My singlespeed is a 29+ bike and I love it for the sandy, tight singletrack around my town, and feel a full fat bike would be overkill for my purposes. When I am riding out of town, I reach for my regular FS 29'er, though. Feels better in rocky, technical stuff.
29er rider here. Plus really caught my attention when I thought about bashing my way through rocks in PA. Bigger tires would be awesome. They were... for that.
Beyond the rock bashing, though, hauling that extra tire weight made the bike feel less lively. Yes, it felt stable. ...too stable.
Beyond my usual 29x2.3-2.5 I tried 26x4.0, 26x4.8, 29x3, and 27.5x3. They all have good points, but the "normal" 29er wins for most of my riding. If I decide I need more tire, I'll just go fat. Hauling the weight of plus, without the float of fat is just too big of a compromise.
Thank you bike industry for options.
There's nothing wrong with that. It's not the best tire for every rider or every condition, but neither is anything else. Ride what makes you happy.
I can't decide on the best tire size so just to be safe I'll keep one of each around. (not counting 650b, no use for that wheel size regardless of tire)
I grew up a weight weenie. Now I am old and slow. Bought a plus bike to ride in Central PA, Rothrock area. The bike is 10lbs heavier than any bike I've ever owned, yet I'm riding **** I couldn't ride in the early 90's when I was young and dumb. The traction is amazing and for an unskilled old and slow rider, I can tackle some pretty technical terrain. Since I bought my plus bike, I wake up everyday hoping I'll have time to ride, and when I do, I go looking for technical, rocky single track. I've lost 25 lbs and I'm having a ball. Plus makes me happy, but if 29er makes u happy, that's awesome.
Similar for me, from 80's mtn rider to roadie to buying a 29er hardtail at age 49, and then picking up a Fuel EX8 27.5 + just over a month ago. I'm old and slow, but damn if this thing doesn't make me fast through the south eastern PA rocks and whatnot. Traction and stability....if you have "too much" then just speed up until things get gnarly, and check Strava for the PR's!!!
You can still weight-weenie a plus(ish) build. I've pushed a large Scalpel 29er just under 23 lbs with a 3.0 in the front and 2.6 in the back. The difference in tire weight from the previous 2.35 setup was under 150g. The bigger tire in front doesn't seem to affect agility, just smooths out the rocks and roots.
Let's throw ebikes into this thread too! Fleas have you had a look at Sram's EX1 drivetrain? It's 8 speed 11-48 in the flavor of steel. According to their page it's not XD Driver compatible. It sounds pretty interesting to me.
Even though you don't prefer plus tires, it is nice to hear the reasons why because I still want try the 2.8 Minions on my Honzo. And there is always the 29x2.6 Minion which was eluded to on pinkbike as, "will eventually be out," with the 27.5 version leading the way.
I can agree with what Fleas is saying about being "too stable." I've been riding my Jones Plus (29+) for the last year, and it does some things amazingly well--especially climbing, where it has a huge sweet spot of traction, and descending, where it feels like skiing as I arc through the corners. But... most of my regular trails are basically flat and twisty (Central Ohio), and there I'm starting to feel there's just too much inertia in the wheels when turning. The Plus may be up for sale this spring. I have to ammortize it over a few more rides yet.
I've been experimenting with 27.5+ on a Niner SIR9, which has a lot of the comfort and traction, but it feels just a bit darty. I think there's a reason I can't bring myself to sell my Karate Monkey. It's just right. Plus, "Karate Monkey" is a great name for a bike.
The "stable" or "heavy" feeling I felt from the plus bikes was def. the wheels. They are lighter than the fatbike, but quite a bit more than the 29er.
My 29er has reasonably light wheels at ~1750g, with not super light tires. The bike itself is what we in the business refer to as a "durable build" at 26-27#.
The 27.5+ was 30-ish#.
The fatty with 29+ was 33-ish#
The fatty with fats is nearly 36#.
While my first bike, a steel 26er, weighed ~32#, and was very manageable/flickable/"poppable", that weight was somewhat more centrally located in the frame, and less in the wheels and tires.
My 2nd bike was down near 23# and was quite the handful. I felt like some added weight would have helped that bike a little.
So, I guess my point is just to leave some reference points. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. We all know that what works here might not work there.
Am I selling my 29+ wheelset? Nope. If I go rock crawling I still want them.
I will soon, I'm in limbo on riding and wrenchwork because I broke my collarbone (on a different bike) two weeks ago. The Scalpel (last-gen in my case) is a really cool platform. The Lefty and stays leave a lot of room for big tires. Adding them takes it from hardcore XC to really fast trail bike with a higher BB and slacker HA. The frame, fork, and shock are only 3.5kg (in carbon guise), so it's easy to build up under 25 lbs even with a dropper. It doesn't have the travel for really crazy stuff, but for the flowing/rooty Southeast trails I ride, I think it's pretty wicked.
It wasn't what I hoped it would be either but for different reasons. I didn't find it slow-3" Rocket Rons installed tubeless were plenty fast and lively, while offering great traction tho not much added compliance. I haven't given up on the plus idea, but I will look for a bike that suits me AND takes bigger tires, rather than a style of bike I've tried several times (hardtail) and hope 3" tires would somehow make it work for me. A short travel full sussser with 2.6"-3" tires would be the ticket! The Mojo 3 comes to mind as well as the Pivot 429 trail. But funds will be hard to come by. In the meantime I hope to put some of the tweener mid plus semi fat 2.6" or so tires on my current bike (5010) to get a little taste.
As stated by OneSpeed, ride what makes you happy. For me that's 29+ with a decent wheelset. Going tubeless and changing wheels shaved 2.3lbs off my wheel/tire combo. There is only 300gr difference between my plus wheel/tire combo, and FS 29er combo. Unless I'm somewhere I need a FS, I prefer the plus bike over everything else I own. BUT, I'm firmly in the intermediate rider category, so the traction and confidence it gives me might not mean as much for a more advanced rider.
Mid to long travel FS 27.5 bike, squeeze 800g 2.6" tyres in there on ~30mm rims and love life
Oh and it's cheap - heaps of existing frames and forks out there that can do it that gets you lots of travel, sensible BB height, and a variety of geometry options.
My 140/160mm travel bike manages it at ~13.5kg (29.7lbs) with 2.6" tyres and no carbon in sight on a moderate budget. Like many things, it turns out that somewhere in the middle ends up being a sweet spot for a lot of people.
The tyre manufacturers are getting on board, however I don't expect the bike manufacturers to be happy as you don't need to buy a new bike to get it.
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