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  1. #1
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    Anyone choosing to ride with tubes in the plus size?

    I'm positive this has been discussed, maybe I'm bad at the search function!

    I just picked up a kona big honzo (standard, not dl). This is my first plus bike. I've read that I need to go tubeless to truly get the benefits of the plus tires? Is this true? Anyone running with tubes at lower pressures and rolling along fine?

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    Hell no

  3. #3
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    Tubeless is a big improvement for any MTB setup, especially with Plus tires. I'm too lazy to look up your bike, but it probably comes with tubeless ready rims and tires, and it's probably already taped as well. Some bikes even come with the tubeless valve stems you need, then you only need some sealant and your ready to go. No good reason not to try it.

  4. #4
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    Yup.

    Pressure in the low teens, chunky New England terrain, no flats in 2 seasons (knock on wood). Figured I'd swap to tubeless when if I started running into any issues, but haven't.
    Snapped 2 chainstays clean through in the same time period too, so it's not like I'm being gentle with them either.
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  5. #5
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    I have 2 tubeless setups. 26x4 and 27.5x3. No issues with either and would run all that way, but my 29x3 was frustrating the hell out of me. Taping went well. Tires seated well. Put in the sealant, and realized the rim seams were leaking and not sealing. Was told to use fingernail polish or epoxy on the inside of the rim seam. Went with nail polish. Tires held pressure over night. Went for a ride, and they held. Next day....full pressure. Day 3, completely flat. Guess I shoulda use epoxy? I was so frustrated, I put tubes in and planned to try again later. Still running the tubes without issues.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiek376 View Post
    I'm positive this has been discussed, maybe I'm bad at the search function!

    I just picked up a kona big honzo (standard, not dl). This is my first plus bike. I've read that I need to go tubeless to truly get the benefits of the plus tires? Is this true? Anyone running with tubes at lower pressures and rolling along fine?

    Hardly anyone, but just in case I have some Kenda 2.4-2.7 tubes coming in (they are taking forever on Amazon for some reason). A surprisingly high number of people (I just found out) get their tubeless setup, + or not, from the LBS and not in their own garage; I did that with them and it was not cheap but it's great so far.

    If you do play it safe and put tubes in, I would really recommend putting in sealant in the tubes, maybe 3-6 ounces. That will help avoid flats. Not sure about + tires without any sealant tubeless or not, but I luckily was able to ride a standard 2.35 inch tire in back for around maybe 400 miles before it went flat w/o sealant. It probably would have lasted 1000+ miles with sealant, so same may apply for + tires if they are tubed. If someone has zero sealant in the tires, tubes or not, and they are not getting flats, they obviously are not riding where I ride; I used to get a flat a week w/o sealant.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    If someone has zero sealant in the tires, tubes or not, and they are not getting flats, they obviously are not riding where I ride; I used to get a flat a week w/o sealant.
    Lots of thorny plants where you ride I assume?
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  8. #8
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    I've set my plus bike up tubeless but my fat bike has tubes in both wheelsets and I've never had an issue. If you're running such low air pressure in a plus bike that you're going to pinch flat it's probably going to be a miserable experience pedaling it around.

  9. #9
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    I currently have the rear wheel tubeless and the front has a tube...

    ^That's actually true. I don't plan to ride it that way but the rear was harder to set up than I expected and I haven't gotten around to the front yet.

    I honestly never noticed a huge difference going tubeless, but I'm pretty sure it's at least not worse than running tubes.

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    I run a 700c in a 2.7 x 29. No problems.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoker View Post
    I have 2 tubeless setups. 26x4 and 27.5x3. No issues with either and would run all that way, but my 29x3 was frustrating the hell out of me. Taping went well. Tires seated well. Put in the sealant, and realized the rim seams were leaking and not sealing. Was told to use fingernail polish or epoxy on the inside of the rim seam. Went with nail polish. Tires held pressure over night. Went for a ride, and they held. Next day....full pressure. Day 3, completely flat. Guess I shoulda use epoxy? I was so frustrated, I put tubes in and planned to try again later. Still running the tubes without issues.
    Your sealant should seal up the rim. Do all 3x methods (basketball, tilt-a-whirl, shake'n'roll) for sealant dispersion and you should be fine. My 29x3 sealed up as easy as my non plus bikes.

  12. #12
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    Toobs suck.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    Hell no
    This, so much this. Started with Knards on gorilla taped Velocity Duallies and now run Bombolonis and Rangers on Easton ARC 40's. I have been able to run low teen tire pressures front and back without much issue with these setups at a rider weight of ~225.

  14. #14
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    I carry one 27+ tube in my pack, since that's what i used to help initially seat my tire. it's heavy as hell. plus i wouldn't exactly be confident running 14-15 psi in a tube.

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    No. We have Goatheads.

  16. #16
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    I use tubes. I've run tubeless, and it generally seems like a lot of mess and hassle for no benefit I can find--we don't have lots of thorns or goatheads on our trails, and I don't feel any ride benefit. Plus, I end up swapping tires around somewhat frequently, and tubes makes this very easy.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    I use tubes. I've run tubeless, and it generally seems like a lot of mess and hassle for no benefit I can find--we don't have lots of thorns or goatheads on our trails, and I don't feel any ride benefit. Plus, I end up swapping tires around somewhat frequently, and tubes makes this very easy.
    My experience also.
    Plus, every time I've run tubeless, I've ended up putting a tube in trailside at some point anyway, so if the solution to tubeless issues is putting a tube in and you need to carry one around anyway, why bother with tubeless at all.

    I'd love to see how many people could tell the difference in blind side-by-side seat of the pants comparison test between tubes and tubeless. Willing to be it would be no more than the 50/50 odds would dictate.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I'd love to see how many people could tell the difference in blind side-by-side seat of the pants comparison test between tubes and tubeless. Willing to be it would be no more than the 50/50 odds would dictate.
    After charging a square-edged ledge I'm pretty sure folks could tell the difference between a pinch-flatted tubed tire vs. a still inflated tubeless tire.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    My experience also.
    Plus, every time I've run tubeless, I've ended up putting a tube in trailside at some point anyway, so if the solution to tubeless issues is putting a tube in and you need to carry one around anyway, why bother with tubeless at all.

    Tubes seem to work great for you in your location so I guess I might not bother with it either if I were in your shoes.


    It's different where I am though, based on personal experience and also observations while working in shops I can say for certain that tubeless is superior for at least 9/10 mountain bikers in the southwest, and I'm sure probably the rest of the western us too.

    I still carry a tube just in case but instead of having to use it once or twice a month it's more like once every 3 years now, and if/when I start carrying a plug kit I might never need it.

    If I were forced to choose between having either disc brakes or tubeless wheels it would be a tough decision.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiek376 View Post
    Anyone running with tubes at lower pressures and rolling along fine?
    I have run tubes in my 29+ bike. I used standard 29 x 2.4" tubes to keep the weight down. I prefer tubeless, but sometimes I've had rims or tires that weren't tubeless friendly or I just wanted to get rolling without getting around to setting them up tubeless.

    We don't have thorns so it worked fine. But, given a bit of time I'd setup my 29+ bike tubeless.
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  21. #21
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    No goatheads or thorns up here in the Northeast, but I just can't understand still wanting to run tubes. Today's tubeless tires and rims are so good that it's really easy to set them up, and they stay that way a long time. Being able to run lower pressures for more traction and a smoother ride, not worrying about pinch flats on those occasions I do bottom out the tire, and instant seal of all those small holes make it the right choice, for me! It's also lighter, depending on what tubes you are running. Once you figure out the right way to set them up, it's really not hard.

    I still carry a tube just in case, but have not needed to use one for over 5 years now. I always carry a normal size tube, not a 'Plus' tube, it will work fine and is much lighter to carry around.

    I vividly remember the first time I pulled a used-up tubeless tire off the rim and found all of the Stan's globs that had sealed up holes in the tire without me even knowing about them, that sealed the deal for me!

  22. #22
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    I run tubes on both my fat bike and plus bike, I've had the fat bike three and a half years running at 2 psi front and 4 back while I've had the plus bike for a couple of years running 6 psi front and 8 at the back. Neither bike has had any punctures or pressure issues so I've not bothered changing to tubeless, I'll consider it if that changes. I'm a very light rider so can possibly get away with more than heavier riders.

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillaroida View Post
    After charging a square-edged ledge I'm pretty sure folks could tell the difference between a pinch-flatted tubed tire vs. a still inflated tubeless tire.
    Hasn't been an issue with plus tires at all (knock on wood).
    I'd pinch flat regular 'skinny' tires once in a great while, not much more often than I'd burp tubeless when I used them, but the running 3" tires with decent sidewalls has seemed to alleviate the issue completely. Like I said, 2 years on the same tubes, no flats, and hitting hard enough to break chainstays twice.

    Probably get a flat tonite now...
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  24. #24
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    Purely out of laziness, I've had tubes in my 29+ Stache for over a year (since purchase). 14 psi or less at 150 lb rider weight. Never had a flat. Always say I'll convert when I flat, but it never happens. New Jersey roots and rocks.

  25. #25
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    Tubes in plus tires for about 1100mi here in colorado. 190lbs geared up. Run 13f/15r. 27.5x3.0 rocket ron and WTB Bridger. A couple races. From XC to rough stuff. Plenty of goatheads here. One flat to rear tire in all that time. Everytime i go for a big group ride, someone burps their TL setup and we wait while they fumble around with trying to set it back up and ultimately end up tubing it.

    I understamd the logic and believe the benefits are real to some folk, but i guess i just dont have the same problems people who used to have tubes experienced to move them to tubeless.

  26. #26
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    I started out on my brand new plus bike and at only a half mile from the trail head down a two track I ended the ride. The bike was a lumbering pig no matter what pressure I set, I tried 18, then 17 then 16 psi then 14,13, It felt like a fat bike. so I headed straight back to the house and yanked the tubes out.

    Some data for you:
    The tubes for my 27.5x2.8's were schwalbe light weight tubes,, LoL Okay.
    try 202 grams for one and 200 even for the other...

    Two ounces of sealant went In each tire at 60 grams per the 2 ounces,
    So I dropped 140 grams in each wheel and at the MOST critical place on the bike. That's rotational mass as far away from the axle as possible.
    This is what we have to constantly RE-accelerate when riding.

    I made mental notes on that one mile ride, half out then back, of how the tires responded to the trail when tubed.

    I went back out and my new Unfamiliar bike was transformed Into this surprisingly light responsive hard tail. I was very surprised at how badly the tubes affected the bike.
    Even dusting the tubes with baby powder would have not helped, the rolling mass was awful. My Rekon tires where only 800 grams each , that and my boost wheels gave me a very stiff responsive wheel setup.

    Oh the baby powder remark,, there Is a bunch of resistance between the tire casing and the tube, Plus tires, especially the 27.5 has very tall sidewalls so when you hit a bump the tube rubs hard against the tire stopping it from deflecting as the tire Is designed to do. Smooth goes out the window and In
    It's place you get a grabby jerky bouncy feel, It just plain sucked.

    Like many I wont even carry a plus tube, I carry a regular 27.5x 2.35 tube and thats over kill..

    OP, Loose the tubes.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osco View Post
    Oh the baby powder remark,, there Is a bunch of resistance between the tire casing and the tube, Plus tires, especially the 27.5 has very tall sidewalls so when you hit a bump the tube rubs hard against the tire stopping it from deflecting as the tire Is designed to do.
    Thank you for the chuckle.

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  28. #28
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by pOrk View Post
    Everytime i go for a big group ride, someone burps their TL setup and we wait while they fumble around with trying to set it back up and ultimately end up tubing it.
    They burp because they think super low psi's are the answer or they don't check tire pressure at the trail head right before they go out, seen this countless times.
    So many still use the thumb pressure test LoL I kid you not.

    I get a little air now and then and bounce down a few rock gardens, I
    have plowed down into some nasty g-outs with my fork mashed to the limit and I have forgotten to unlock the fork. I'm riding 27.5x2.8 tubeless for three seasons now, never burped, not once.

    185 In full ride gear,
    on a hard tail,
    14-15 rear psi, 13-14 front psi,
    depending on the trail and the weather...
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    My experience also.
    Plus, every time I've run tubeless, I've ended up putting a tube in trailside at some point anyway, so if the solution to tubeless issues is putting a tube in and you need to carry one around anyway, why bother with tubeless at all.

    I'd love to see how many people could tell the difference in blind side-by-side seat of the pants comparison test between tubes and tubeless. Willing to be it would be no more than the 50/50 odds would dictate.
    Amazing. Tubeless is one of the best improvements in the last 15 years. I can run lower pressures for a noticeably softer/smoother ride, more traction, more control, less weight for longer rides... What are the down sides?

    If you know how to set them up, it doesn't take much time and you don't spill anything, so it's not messy at all.

    I don't understand how there could be no perceived difference. Big big difference.

    Especially on hardtail or rigid.

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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pOrk View Post
    Everytime i go for a big group ride, someone burps their TL setup and we wait while they fumble around with trying to set it back up and ultimately end up tubing it.

    Weird, I've got over 3,000 miles on my tubeless wheels and never a burp, I think maybe some people are still doing ghetto setups.

    Waiting around and helping patch or replace tube(s) used to be standard fare on group rides back in the day and it was an odd ride for sure if no one flatted. Most people I knew carried 2 spares and a patch kit. I still do some waiting around on group rides but pretty much never to fix a flat, unless some newb was still using tubes for some silly reason
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    I don't understand how there could be no perceived difference. Big big difference.
    I didn't really get the perceived difference thing either, nor was I able to lower pressures more than 1 or 2 psi on 2.3 tires. Maybe I'm just not very sensitive, or maybe I need to put tubes back in after my long hiatus and see if I notice any changes.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I didn't really get the perceived difference thing either, nor was I able to lower pressures more than 1 or 2 psi on 2.3 tires. Maybe I'm just not very sensitive, or maybe I need to put tubes back in after my long hiatus and see if I notice any changes.
    I'm pretty A.R. when it comes to my machines. That could be my problem. Very OCD. I've taken my bike apart over the years completely down to the pivot bearings, suspension internals...just to narrow down an odd "tick" noise that doesn't belong.

    So yeah, I can see that.

  33. #33
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    Riding and wrenching on all sorts of MTBs since 1991 and I personally can't feel an iota of difference between tubes and tubeless (or talc/no talc ). Regularly make thumb pressure adjustments with no ill results.

    I'm whatever the opposite of A.R./OCD is and also don't tend towards confirmation bias.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    I'm pretty A.R. when it comes to my machines. That could be my problem. Very OCD. I've taken my bike apart over the years completely down to the pivot bearings, suspension internals...just to narrow down an odd "tick" noise that doesn't belong.

    So yeah, I can see that.
    It's not that I'm not picky, I can't stand any sort of creak or excess drivetrain noises. I really appreciate a silent bike and try to do the necessary maintenance to keep it that way.

    I just never noticed the dramatic difference that many people seem to tout when they switched over to tubeless. I do think it's one of the best upgrades I've ever done on a mtb but just for the lack of flats and hassle and not for a better ride or less psi.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Weird, I've got over 3,000 miles on my tubeless wheels and never a burp, I think maybe some people are still doing ghetto setups.

    Waiting around and helping patch or replace tube(s) used to be standard fare on group rides back in the day and it was an odd ride for sure if no one flatted. Most people I knew carried 2 spares and a patch kit. I still do some waiting around on group rides but pretty much never to fix a flat, unless some newb was still using tubes for some silly reason
    Oh definitely most of the time user error on those cases. I just find it funny when I tell someone im running tubes they are surprised and during that same ride we are stopping because someone isnt maintaining their sealant. A lot of those guys are grtting it done at the LBS and not really keeping up on it.

    Id never claim tubes are better than tubeless, but id also say that tubes are just fine. As smeone already said, they are OCD, and I think in general many people on forums tend to be more enthusiastic about ‘gear’ and ‘gear’ decisions, describing the huge differences in feel because 200 grams somewhere.

  36. #36
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    I don't get the whole burping thing either. Maybe in the early days of tubeless it was a thing, but with modern tire/rim interfaces it should never happen. In my 8+ years of running tubeless on multiple bikes I have never burped a tire. I'm running rigid with pressures below 10 psi on 27x3.25 tires and weigh in close to 200 these days, so I'm certainly pushing the low end of the PSI scale.

    User error...

    Any yeah, people who have their bike shop do the conversion are doing a dis-service to themselves. When you set it up yourself, you know exactly what's going on in your setup and how to properly deal with issues on the trail in the unlikely event something goes wrong.

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    Where I live, everyone rides tubeless, and the number of people riding 5k Yetis completely maintained by the shop, that dont know how to change a tube is quite large. Its not a surprise that when we go out on these rides that many have issues.

    This is not a knock on those peoples choices to spend money on bikes, but mountain biking in CO has been and continues to be huge, so its inevitable that there will be so muvh user error. Im not exaggerating on the number of people i encounter with tubeless issues.

    I guess the point is to people new to tubeless is that learn how to do it and do it right and dont be surprised when you have issues while you learn the nuances of your rims and tires (not all created equal). And dont be surprised if there is no earth shattering change to your riding experience.

  38. #38
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    I held out for a long time (30 years...lol). After going tubeless a couple of years ago it's better for me. I do my own mntc and figured it out with a bit of trial and error. I'm 6'4" / 220lbs, run 27.5 X 2.5 tires at 20-22 psi and have NEVER had any burps or flats. I don't even bother carrying a tube anymore. Had thousands of awesome rides with tubes but flats were not unusual (New England singletrack). Over the years I did rim strips, slime tubes, etc which were effective to reduce flats.

    But the biggest tubeless benefits for me are from running lower pressures which reduces vibration and improves traction and feel significantly. Running tubes at 30-35 psi just does not compare.

    I can see how tubeless could be a pain if you counted on a bike shop for every little issue.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    Amazing. Tubeless is one of the best improvements in the last 15 years. I can run lower pressures for a noticeably softer/smoother ride, more traction, more control, less weight for longer rides...
    Agreed, the difference in feel and traction, because I can run 10 psi lower pressures, is quite pronounced.

  40. #40
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    I ran tubes for a long time on my 26" hardtail. Switched to tubeless with that and felt much more confident running lower pressures. For the first couple of rides on my Fuse, I had tubes in it. I could tell the difference on fire road climbs recorded by my Strava and just feeling the extra rotational weight.

    It also made me more comfortable dropping a few psi, which really improved traction on technical descents. I see no reason not to. It's an easy conversion and people make more of a fuss of it than is necessary. A lot of times you don't even need a compressor.

  41. #41
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    Nothing I own has tubes or ever will again. Pinch flat a tube, done, get s thorn, done. Stopping to change a tube.

    Tubeless (which should only be done with sealant included) means shaving 1lb per wheel on a b+ bike (that's what the or tubes weighed, slightly over a pound each).

    Means I hit a bad thorn in hisses for a couple seconds, worst case I need to add a little air to finish a ride. But yet to have that happen. Home brew sealant for the win. Brief loud hiss, plugged up a hole from a big ass thorn as I kept going. Finished the ride no problem just had to watch hard edges so I didn't tag the rim hard.

    Still haven't touched that tire besides to add a little air in a month since the thorn.

    If my sealant can't fix it then I don't for see a tube lasting very long either. When I was running tubes pinch flats meant stopping. Get a sidewall tear doesn't take long before tube goes anyway so no point.

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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    My experience also.
    Plus, every time I've run tubeless, I've ended up putting a tube in trailside at some point anyway, so if the solution to tubeless issues is putting a tube in and you need to carry one around anyway, why bother with tubeless at all.

    I'd love to see how many people could tell the difference in blind side-by-side seat of the pants comparison test between tubes and tubeless. Willing to be it would be no more than the 50/50 odds would dictate.
    My fatty tubes weighed 1 pound each. Plus tubes or say a 26x 2.5 have to be hefty as well. Better rolling resistance, no flats and no pinch flats for me in 3 years. And in lower psi there is no downside for me, gong tubeless. I think I left my rolling resistance gauge in my other car though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    My fatty tubes weighed 1 pound each. Plus tubes or say a 26x 2.5 have to be hefty as well. Better rolling resistance, no flats and no pinch flats for me in 3 years. And in lower psi there is no downside for me, gong tubeless. I think I left my rolling resistance gauge in my other car though.
    Don't worry - your imagination will take care of things.

    If I ran any lower pressure, my tires would flop all over the place; I can't say I see any need or benefit to to rolling around on 10psi.
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    Thanks everyone for the replies on this. Interesting to see so many people on both sides. I may give it a go. I don't ride in areas that flats on generally a problem, but it seems like the weight savings and the fact that it is tubeless compatible already may make it a good move.

    Does anyone happen to have experience with the Big Honzo. It's how to tell just how tubeless ready it is from their site. It lists it as tubeless compatible. I'm not sure if that means it's already taped/has the right valves/etc. It's on order and should be here next week, so just wondering if I'll need to order just sealent or the whole package. Also, anyone know the width of rim tape I'd need if it's not already taped?

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    I went tubeless 6-7 years ago. I haven't had a flat in 6-7 years. 😀

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    I have a 27.5+ and run tubes.

    I just bought a Norco Fluid 2 HT+ a couple of months ago, starting to ride after DECADES off the bike on any regular basis. I used to do all of my own maintenance on my old 80s Bianchi Campione d' Italia, down to cleaning each individual ball bearing, but this time around, the shop said "We'll handle the tires" and they replaced the tubes with new tubes and orange sealant. I'm running them 12 in front, 15 in back. No problems at all. It was weird to turn over something as "simple" as tires to the shop, but that's how it went. The bike has WTB Ranger 2.8s on Alex 35MD rims, both listed as "tubeless ready" BUT some have said there are some complications with one, the other, or both, and the shop said they're not 100% tubeless compatible.

    We have goat heads where i ride. Being new to mtb, i am a somewhat tame rider right now.

    I may try tubeless at some point, but for now, i'm saving financial investments for the other bike(s), and my fly fishing, and backpacking pursuits. i do have a dropper post, does that count for anything anymore??? lol

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  47. #47
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    I ran tubes for decades. Sometimes I'd get a flat, maybe two, it happens. Tubeless is pretty fantastic, as long as you don't burp tire too bad... but you do have to remember to refresh the sealant...

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    Got a flat on my first ride with 27.5+ and said no to tubes after that. But I think depending what terrain you're riding you can get away with tubes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    but you do have to remember to refresh the sealant...
    Welcome to 2018, where you don't have to worry about refreshing your sealant.

    Anyone choosing to ride with tubes in the plus size?-export-1-1-3.jpg

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    Don't know how much I trust that. I am curious about it though. But something has to solidify in the hole to hold the chunk in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Don't know how much I trust that. I am curious about it though. But something has to solidify in the hole to hold the chunk in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xiek376 View Post
    I'm positive this has been discussed, maybe I'm bad at the search function!

    I just picked up a kona big honzo (standard, not dl). This is my first plus bike. I've read that I need to go tubeless to truly get the benefits of the plus tires? Is this true? Anyone running with tubes at lower pressures and rolling along fine?
    My plus tubes weighted 495 grams EACH. 4 ounces of sealant in each tire and I think I dropped close to 2 pounds taking those rotational weight boat anchors out!

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yup.

    Pressure in the low teens, chunky New England terrain, no flats in 2 seasons (knock on wood). Figured I'd swap to tubeless when if I started running into any issues, but haven't.
    Snapped 2 chainstays clean through in the same time period too, so it's not like I'm being gentle with them either.
    Same here.
    Buddy keeps telling me to go T L and will even do it for me. Just haven't got around to it and the plus set up from factory with tubes has been trouble free. I figure the same. I'll get to it when I have that bugger of a problem with flats. Meantime, every time we ride, he is staring at his rims wondering what and why they drip/leak.
    One of these days I'll ask him how often he airs them up or checks them since I squeeze my tires a few times a month and might adjust psi a bit depending on ride venue. Never had to air them up or pay attention to them and I won't miss that.

    Pine One w/ 27.5 x 3.0 NobbyNics are likely around 17 front and 20 rear and I'm 170#. Got a nice low psi rated gauge but in reality, I once or twice got a number read for tires but I've since just used the tire squeeze method. Numbers can be a good reference but to me, mean little when the bike rides and responds as I like.

    If I'm pushing 2# more rotating mass, I probably need the exercise. Plus bikes float.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillaroida View Post
    After charging a square-edged ledge I'm pretty sure folks could tell the difference between a pinch-flatted tubed tire vs. a still inflated tubeless tire.
    I guess I understand pressures for tubless run lower or can but if I get the ride, traction and performance I like with tubes and not running pressure so low I get or have to worry of pinch flats, what am I missing?

    If I go the tubless set up then carry a tube around on the bike as some do, where is my weight savings ? The tube weights less if it's packed elsewhere ?

    ** I'm all for the happy set up and ride experience, especially so for the trouble-free aspect so to those trouble-free with-out tubes; Enjoy and celebrate knowing your environment and ride situations may be best suited for a TL set up.

    I'm truly not anxious to have an assault/s by way of psi bleed-out on numerous occasions. Should that happen, it's the only sign I need to try the TL plan. By then, I'll better know my bike, how it rides and responds and hopefully, be able to discern meaningful impressions.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post

    If I go the tubless set up then carry a tube around on the bike as some do, where is my weight savings ?

    You don't carry a spare tube now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    My plus tubes weighted 495 grams EACH. 4 ounces of sealant in each tire and I think I dropped close to 2 pounds taking those rotational weight boat anchors out!
    Actually it's around 1.6-1.7#

    4oz of sealant is around 115g.

    495x2= 990
    - 230g of sealant= 760g / 453.6= 1.68#

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    You don't carry a spare tube now?
    I don't carry a tube anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    I guess I understand pressures for tubless[/sic] run lower or can but if I get the ride, traction and performance I like with tubes and not running pressure so low I get or have to worry of pinch flats, what am I missing?
    Better traction and performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    If I go the tubless[/sic] set up then carry a tube around on the bike as some do, where is my weight savings ? The tube weights less if it's packed elsewhere ?
    3 tubes (two in your tires + one in your pack) - 1 tube (strapped to your frame or in your pack) = 2 tubes worth of gross weight savings.

    2 tubes worth of gross weight savings - weight of sealant - difference in tire weight = net weight savings

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    I can't believe you guys are still haven this debate, if you're running plus or fat tubes, no matter how you spin it, you're behind the times… The pros outweigh the cons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    I don't carry a tube anymore.
    Tubeless?
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Tubeless?
    Yeah. No flats in 6-7 years. I've got no reason for a backup. I don't ride 30 miles out into nowhere though. I used to carry one just in case, but I'm that confident. Heck... Lately I don't even carry tools or an inflator. Just water.

    I'm dialed.

    Never thought I'd be that careless, but I just don't need it.

    If I rode Moab or Womble or some long remote unfamiliar place, I'd probably rethink my decision but my trails are close enough to civilization that I don't require a backup plan anymore given the reliability of my gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmbrown View Post
    I can't believe you guys are still haven this debate, if you're running plus or fat tubes, no matter how you spin it, you're behind the times… The pros outweigh the cons.
    Cuz we all know the most important thing is to keep up with buying the latest stuff, even if we don't find any benefit to it. Don't want the parking lot bike-appraisers to giving us the stink-eye.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Cuz we all know the most important thing is to keep up with buying the latest stuff, even if we don't find any benefit to it. Don't want the parking lot bike-appraisers to giving us the stink-eye.
    That sounds like a pretty intense trailhead scene.

    How do the bike-appraisers determine that you’re running tubes? Do they carry portable x-ray machines?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fillaroida View Post
    That sounds like a pretty intense trailhead scene.

    How do the bike-appraisers determine that you’re running tubes? Do they carry portable x-ray machines?
    The parking lot appraisal usually doesn't get past the non-dropper post.
    Then it seems they head home to make more misjudgements on the internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Cuz we all know the most important thing is to keep up with buying the latest stuff, even if we don't find any benefit to it. Don't want the parking lot bike-appraisers to giving us the stink-eye.
    LOL

    Going tubeless is not that reason for going lower pressure. I used Latex tubes on my 29"x2.3 and went with ~11-14psi...
    After six month of carefree tubeless on my Plus bike i'm quite happy - aside of the first setup (six hands, compressor) and second setup after repairing a spoke (special rim tape, compressor). My rides are usually on the remote site so i carry a 29" Butyl tube. Calculates are here. Reading
    No flats in 6-7 years.
    give me hope never use the spare tube.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    You don't carry a spare tube now?
    No. And I'm not even kilo conscious. My bike is 30.5 or 31#. I would do so on a long journey or multi day trip but in 25 years of living and riding here those little scabs or kit has covered me oh..... I'm gonna say 5 or six times. I did a trailside boot fix on a tire once that worked good enough for me to forget replacing the tire for over a year. I didn't have a spare tire with me.
    I mentioned the tube since many say they carry and some might forget they subtracted it from their weight or consider high among the tiers of advantages.

    I wasn't kidding about having no issues with flats or causing me grief and not kidding that if or when I get zapped with that curse, I'll def consider going TL if nothing else, just ignore hype and real experiences by others since it's the only way I can see how it works for me here. Just waiting for a reason.
    * If TL is the answer to my problem, let me go get a problem first... right ? That's the sort of projection that seems out of place aside from post count and being snowed in at the cabin.

    I did see mention of a doing a sort of hula dance and wiggling hips as part of the 'process' with the sealant.
    If my wife spotted that, she'd demand I get those dancing lessons! Maybe that's reason enough ?

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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillaroida View Post
    Better traction and performance.



    3 tubes (two in your tires + one in your pack) - 1 tube (strapped to your frame or in your pack) = 2 tubes worth of gross weight savings.

    2 tubes worth of gross weight savings - weight of sealant - difference in tire weight = net weight savings
    Thank you for salient feedback.
    I guess my real world math is my patch kit (or scabs) plus my two tubes in the tires.
    versus a bike with tubless set up / sealant in tires and one tube on the frame.

    Performance and traction isn't something I'm willing to gamble on now but it would be an easy test on two bike set ups for sure, putting data in place of touchy-feely impressions or potential placebo.
    For now, I'm okay being a cheater since inertia / velocity is the byproduct of rotational mass. Once those massive-weighty wheels are rolling I can't stop them !
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    I don't get the whole burping thing either. Maybe in the early days of tubeless it was a thing, but with modern tire/rim interfaces it should never happen. In my 8+ years of running tubeless on multiple bikes I have never burped a tire. I'm running rigid with pressures below 10 psi on 27x3.25 tires and weigh in close to 200 these days, so I'm certainly pushing the low end of the PSI scale.

    User error...

    Any yeah, people who have their bike shop do the conversion are doing a dis-service to themselves. When you set it up yourself, you know exactly what's going on in your setup and how to properly deal with issues on the trail in the unlikely event something goes wrong.
    You nailed that one
    Yeah I think the burp riders are those on old style rims that have a very poor bead/rim mating.
    And those on too wide and too narrow of a rim for a given tire or visa versa.

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    Bike digs in and shoots forward with all this energy,
    No burp and no problems :P
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    To each their experiences out there.

    WTB +tubes weighing in at a claimed 635g is plain ridiculous in and of itself! Any +tube that has a claimed weight in excess of a Surly lite fatbike tube is an easy **** that!

    Using Q-Tubes SL 26x2.7 has been doable with no issue. These are very low in weight and keep the tires supple.
    Running tubeless is the same other than the inconvenience during tire swaps with the scum cleanup that hasta be done. Can't say I have had issues with flats other than a cactus thorn that went in the tread zone and through the sidewall of the tire causing an issue. A basic thorn or goathead got my fatty when the scum was dried and the tire did a 3 hour adventure, going from 6 psi down to 3 psi at the end of the adventure.

    165# rider with a trialsy, light riding style has made riding low pressure a non issue. Rarely do my tires exceed 12 psi. Rocky Mountains are great +bike habitat.

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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    I guess my real world math is my patch kit (or scabs) plus my two tubes in the tires.
    versus a bike with tubless set up / sealant in tires and one tube on the frame.
    You ride with a patch kit but no spare tube?

    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    Performance and traction isn't something I'm willing to gamble on
    Gamble?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I didn't really get the perceived difference thing either, nor was I able to lower pressures more than 1 or 2 psi on 2.3 tires. Maybe I'm just not very sensitive, or maybe I need to put tubes back in after my long hiatus and see if I notice any changes.

    I agree. I'm skeptical that an average rider could tell the difference. I think it's largely placebo effect.

    I don't care for super low pressures either. I usually ride around 25-30 psi in my 2.35s. Less than that feels vague and squirmy.

    Tubeless are great for flat prevention though.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I agree. I'm skeptical that an average rider could tell the difference. I think it's largely placebo effect.

    I don't care for super low pressures either. I usually ride around 25-30 psi in my 2.35s. Less than that feels vague and squirmy.

    Tubeless are great for flat prevention though.
    What I saw was not simply mentally perceived.

    The weight matter was noticeable upon the switch on my 29er. Not a huge difference but it was noticeable the first ride. Was of no real concern.

    Lack of flats obviously. That was why I went tubeless

    On my plus bike the differences we're much more massive. Removing almost a lb per wheel was HUGE being it was the tubes, so most noticeable location. But when I recently lost just over 100g just in my rear hub plus a little in spokes/nipples I noticed absolutely NOTHING.

    The other aspects of tubeless that many claim regarding pressures and such, most have multiple bikes and full suspension so it's a joke, 99% placebo. A more plush feeling is a given but when your on full squish if you didn't know if there was tubes versus tubeless chances are most would never have a clue. The top percentage (pros and guys that have been riding since most of us were in diapers) are the only ones that would actually realize anything that mattered. Even the weight loss for decent tubes vs tubeless would be hard to feel unless ridden back to back because almost no one is the same physically from day to day. So their performance can very more than what a decent skinny tube would have any effect on.

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  73. #73
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    still run my Knards with tubes on my v1 Krampus...in 3 years of all kids of terrain...no flats. I run around 17psi. We have hawthorn spikes in a lot of the area where I ride as well...they can drive through a shoe sole at the right angle....have luckily had no issues...

    not against running tubeless...just haven't seen the need to do it yet
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I agree. I'm skeptical that an average rider could tell the difference. I think it's largely placebo effect.

    I don't care for super low pressures either. I usually ride around 25-30 psi in my 2.35s. Less than that feels vague and squirmy.

    Tubeless are great for flat prevention though.
    2.35 is a minus tire!

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    What I saw was not simply mentally perceived.

    The weight matter was noticeable upon the switch on my 29er. Not a huge difference but it was noticeable the first ride. Was of no real concern.

    Lack of flats obviously. That was why I went tubeless

    On my plus bike the differences we're much more massive. Removing almost a lb per wheel was HUGE being it was the tubes, so most noticeable location. But when I recently lost just over 100g just in my rear hub plus a little in spokes/nipples I noticed absolutely NOTHING.

    The other aspects of tubeless that many claim regarding pressures and such, most have multiple bikes and full suspension so it's a joke, 99% placebo. A more plush feeling is a given but when your on full squish if you didn't know if there was tubes versus tubeless chances are most would never have a clue. The top percentage (pros and guys that have been riding since most of us were in diapers) are the only ones that would actually realize anything that mattered. Even the weight loss for decent tubes vs tubeless would be hard to feel unless ridden back to back because almost no one is the same physically from day to day. So their performance can very more than what a decent skinny tube would have any effect on.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    With my choice of a light weight non DH tires cause they just don't matter what you do to em lest ya weigh 3-500 #'s.
    SL tubes in my +tires have been excellent for ride feel and a non detectable difference between running em tubeless vs. tubed. With a WTB 27.5 being a 635g tube, I'd say there would be a weight savings that would be noticeable.

    The primary issue I have is tire swaps are expected to be a 5 minute ordeal, as opposed to the absurd career of swapping tubeless tires due to the scum that has to be cleaned up. Another is the buildup of Stan's or other scum product that stiffens the tire and makes for a DH tire and thorn proof tube combo in terms of feel. I cannot deal with dead tires that suck hind tit for getting trialsy. So, in the end, that once a few years patch a tube is just the cost of doing business.
    3 RSD's that are daily drivers and 2 flats in the time that I've been owned by em ain't too shabby. Consistent tire feel is higher on the list.
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillaroida View Post
    You ride with a patch kit but no spare tube?



    Gamble?
    You do know I'd be patching an allegedly leaking tube on the bike and not a perfectly good spare right ?


    Well, as they say in the investment biz-
    "Past performance does not guarantee future results" but I don't find it hanging my a-- out on the line with my typical rides, miles from the trail head or the "past performance". Twenty5 years I've been here riding versus the times I have a catastrophic failure. That worst event was a tire side wall tear / boot fix on the trail that worked out very well. Nope, didn't have a spare tire either.

    I take a tube at times, just depends on the ride plans, distance , variables etc... and, I'm not a weight worrier.
    I just don't know the specifics enough to follow the grams argument, aka real world math when the basis of the poster is all about weight.

    Those I know and ride with kit up for what worked/s for them, how and where they ride and past experience. I don't know them to argue it, justify it or explain it unless help or input is requested. It may be mind bottling to some that I rarely get a flat or even have to add air though I understand there's some serious heartburn for others who have/had problems almost every ride or multiple times through the year.
    Still, I'll leave it to Mr Goodwrench for telling everyone what's best for them.

    If the math is 2 tubes and patch scabs on bike one and one tube as a spare with the requisite sealant in the tires, what is that number going to be ?
    Seventy-eight, 100, 180 grams diff ? * Maybe cite the example tube source, weight and sealant info just to make it fun ?

    Tune in next week when we chisel the paint off a sample bike to illustrate the Madness of bike mfg's telling us we need colors when they are secretly doing this to add weight.
    Last edited by bachman1961; 1 Week Ago at 01:47 PM.

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    =bachman1961;13661134what am I missing?

    ******If I go the tubless set up then carry a tube around on the bike as some do, where is my weight savings ? The tube weights less if it's packed elsewhere ?*****
    ******Enjoy and celebrate knowing your environment and ride situations may be best suited for a TL set up.********
    *******I'm truly not anxious to have an assault/s by way of psi bleed-out on numerous occasions. Should that happen, it's the only sign I need to try the TL plan. By then, I'll better know my bike, how it rides and responds and hopefully, be able to discern meaningful impressions.*********
    1st go back and read post #26, then cast all that good BS aside,

    A few things most TL riders are aware of and can feel right away that makes a TL set up the only sensible thing to do.
    A much lighter wheel system that accelerates faster with less watts, Thats you. You will have more energy to go farther, faster and most know faster Is easier.
    (Momentum/Speed Is your best friend out In the Single Tracks btw)
    This lighter set up makes steering the bike feel lighter also, just like a kid playing with a gyroscope. The more the mass the harder It Is to change direction.

    Next thing Is your tires can deform faster for a smoother roll over small on bumps that slow you down.

    The science In this statement is so simple:

    Tubed at what 25 psi,,ok 22 PSI, a harder tire, you hit a small bump, (Rock,Root Etc), Your Harder AND heavier tire bounces back and up with more force for three reasons.

    #1 Is mass, more of It, LOTS when It's UN-sprung mass.

    #2 The higher pressure due to the tube.
    When that tire bounces back, compressing the fork with more mass It's just like tapping the brakes, you loose some forward momentum.

    #3 The tire side wall In conjunction with the tube add up to a stiffer tire and that tire bouncing up and back with more force means you travel a few Inches farther while that tire hunts for traction, getting Itself back on the ground........ Very Bad !

    Now TL at what,, 15, 18, ok 19 PSI the tire deforms so much faster on that small bump and since It moved up and back less your treads get back on the ground sooner, faster. More traction can only be had when the tire Is on the ground.......

    Your fork did not have to compress as much so you loose less forward momentum.

    If all this happens at the worst possible time, say at max lean angle,, you will have more treads in the trail, more traction, :P

    As bikeny (post#36) said, older style rims say 4 or 5 years back may not have the modern design at the bead and may burp at lower pressures.
    IF your on wheels that old and they are not really good ones you have maintained your missing out big time...

    Why would a rider NOT want to go tubeless ?
    I cannot Imagine any reason except his bike Is really Garage wall art and only gets ridden with the kids around the subdivision..:P
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    You do know I'd be patching an allegedly leaking tube on the bike and not a perfectly good spare right ?


    Well, as they say in the investment biz-
    "Past performance does not guarantee future results" but I don't find it hanging my a-- out on the line with my typical rides, miles from the trail head or the "past performance". Twenty5 years I've been here riding versus the times I have a catastrophic failure. That worst event was a tire side wall tear / boot fix on the trail that worked out very well. Nope, didn't have a spare tire either.

    I take a tube at times, just depends on the ride plans, distance , variables etc... and, I'm not a weight worrier.
    I just don't know the specifics enough to follow the grams argument, aka real world math when the basis of the poster is all about weight.

    Those I know and ride with kit up for what worked/s for them, how and where they ride and past experience. I don't know them to argue it, justify it or explain it unless help or input is requested. It may mind bottling to some that I rarely get a flat or even have to add air though I understand there's some serious heartburn for others who have/had problems almost every ride or multiple times through the year.
    Still, I'll leave it to Mr Goodwrench for telling everyone what's best for them.

    If the math is 2 tubes and patch scabs on bike one and one tube as a spare with the requisite sealant in the tires, what is that number going to be ?
    Seventy-eight, 100, 180 grams diff ? * Maybe cite the example tube source, weight and sealant info just to make it fun ?

    Tune in next week when we chisel the paint off a sample bike to illustrate the Madness of bike mfg's telling us we need colors when they are secretly doing this to add weight.
    This is some funny shit. I always wondered about carrying all that extra weight around in paint when you know damn well that it is just going to chip off anyways and look like hell!

    I also wonder why huge tires don't present the same rotational weight problems that tubes do even though they weigh several times more?? After listening to all these weight weenie arguments I am tempted to go back to 26 inch paper thin tires, narrow rims and low spoke counts!

    I laugh at the hip crowd that have the latest and greatest bikes with carbon this and carbon that yet carry around 10 pound backpacks, an extra 20 pounds around their gut, ride perhaps 20 miles a week and yet are totally tuned into how much difference there is to shaving a couple hundred grams off their wheels.

    I guess if you pontificate on a forum enough and look like the smartest person in the room then you will be magically faster for it.

    That said I run tubeless and like it and don't see going back to tubes. Not so much for weight reasons or rolling resistance but because it has worked so well for me in regards to not getting flats. I also don't carry a spare tube or extra sealant and usually leave my plug kit at home even when I am out there bikepacking miles from any services. It may be stupid but I can think of a lot of other things that are more likely to leave me stranded out there before a flat will. Some of you folks seem so paranoid that I am surprised that you dare throw a leg over a bicycle at all!

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osco View Post
    1Why would a rider NOT want to go tubeless ?
    I cannot Imagine any reason except his bike Is really Garage wall art and only gets ridden with the kids around the subdivision..:P
    Another gear weenie convinced they've been ablt to shop their way to dominance.
    What a riot.

    Post up some results/pics/video of your hardcore awesomeness why dontcha?We cul-de-sac cruisers have so much to learn from you about what it really means to be a mountain biker. Never mind the past 30 years of actually riding; it's obviously all about the shopping.

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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osco View Post
    #2 The higher pressure due to the tube.

    If that's true then you're right, tubeless has a definite advantage due to it's ability to be run lower. It never worked for me though because if I lower it a few psi I just get rim strikes, so now instead of getting a pinch flat and a rim dent I just get a rim dent Anyway I run my tires at the same psi as I did with the same tires tubed which is reasonably low for my riding conditions and tire size. (2.3" @ low to mid 20 psi)

    The suppleness thing? Pretty subjective I guess, I can't feel a difference. I could be talking out my @ss because I haven't used plus tires and maybe it's a different story with them.

    Tubeless is far superior for me though due to (mostly) eliminating flats and their associated hassles and time consumption. Lighter is a nice bonus too.
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  80. #80
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    Tubes are just not really an option for me due to geographic factors.
    I guess if i lived in a place with no thorns, I'd feel less strongly about tubes vs tubeless.

    I've had to put a tube in when I cut a sidewall, I *thought* I could tell a difference in performance, but will admit it could have been confirmation bias, or the fact I overinflated to 19-20 psi to avoid a pinch flat vs the 14 I normally would.

    Sealant maintenance isn't that hard honestly, I just 'shake' the wheel every so often. if something sloshes, it's fine. if not, I pull the valve core and squirt in another 2-3 ounces. Tires die a quick death around here, so they're worn or torn before too much of the solid part of sealant gets too built up. I don't worry about it.

    I like the peace of mind knowing that coming around a corner to find a situation like the below pic isn't likely to end my ride.
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  81. #81
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    Tubeless and droppers, topics sure to get everyone worked up.

    Just a little food for thought regarding tubeless and the supposed placebo feel and traction benefits on standard 29'er FS bikes.

    Some of you ride tubes at crazy low pressures that I would be sure to pinch flat within 100 yards of the trail head. Trust me, I have tried. With tubes and at my size, I need to run 35 - 40 psi in the rear tire to not pinch flat on my RIP 9 in technical terrain. At that pressure, the tires noticeably bounce and slide a lot more, regardless of the suspension settings. With tubeless, I can run pressures in the 22 - 25 psi range, the tires grip, and the suspension doesn't struggle to control them.

    Same goes for my rigid, plus bike, to a lesser extent. Would have to run above 15 psi to not pinch flat and it is a pinball in technical stuff at that pressure. Below that with tubeless and it just grips and rips.

    Oh, and for you cranky luddites out there, I refuse to use a dropper, so I am not all about chasing whatever the industry tells me I need to buy.

  82. #82
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    Tubeless technology just makes sense. In my opinion it appears to br a superior solution, but I run tubes anyway. I ran tubes this werkend at a 12 hour race in the desert for 85mi of singletrack. I passed at least 10 riders throughout the day dealing with flats and a good number of them dealing with sealant as I rolled by. Just anecdotal bullshit, but tubes work for me... especially in my garage.

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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARandomBiker View Post
    Tubes are just not really an option for me due to geographic factors.
    I guess if i lived in a place with no thorns, I'd feel less strongly about tubes vs tubeless.

    I've had to put a tube in when I cut a sidewall, I *thought* I could tell a difference in performance, but will admit it could have been confirmation bias, or the fact I overinflated to 19-20 psi to avoid a pinch flat vs the 14 I normally would.

    Sealant maintenance isn't that hard honestly, I just 'shake' the wheel every so often. if something sloshes, it's fine. if not, I pull the valve core and squirt in another 2-3 ounces. Tires die a quick death around here, so they're worn or torn before too much of the solid part of sealant gets too built up. I don't worry about it.

    I like the peace of mind knowing that coming around a corner to find a situation like the below pic isn't likely to end my ride.

    In one year I changed four flats, three were not mine, the fourth was but I stuck to tubes for the simplicity because I watched a guy out on the trail get Into a right nasty mess when he sliced a side wall and was tubeless.
    A really messy deal. Fresh sealant, new tire and It looked like he had way too much sealant. The tire stuck to Itself and his hands and the rag and,,, I have no Idea why...
    He got a tube In there and a few business cards kept the tube from popping out the sidewall slice.

    Then I upgraded my wheel set and they had the newer,,I dunno what Its called,,Hookless bead ? or sum such name, So I went tubeless and dropped
    my psi on my 27.5x2.35's from 24ish down to 21ish.
    Loved the lighter feel and never had a single burp or rim strike.

    I could feel the weight loss, I could really feel the major jump In bike handling.
    I always got about a season on my tires and never check the sealant.
    I always rode two or three times a week and when I started loosing three or so psi after three or so days I'd feed the tires another bottle and go ride.

    I always seemed to go about four to five months, add a 2 oz bottle then the tires were toast three or four months later.
    Bike lived inside the house In the Air conditioning....
    I rode Central florida.

    Like you said, "the peace of mind" Is worth everything,

    I will be trying that new Sealant shown In this thread,
    "Life of the tire",, It's about time :P
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  84. #84
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    I run tubes, with tire pressures low enough to get the occasional rim strike (high teens @ 230lbs). I haven't had problems with pinch flats. Got a puncture flat a year ago that probably would have self-sealed if tubeless.

    If I start having issues with pinch flats or puncture flats I'll go tubeless. I think a lot of people setup tubeless because they think it's superior, but it's just another option that may or may not be called for.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by squeakymcgillicuddy View Post
    I run tubes, with tire pressures low enough to get the occasional rim strike (high teens @ 230lbs). I haven't had problems with pinch flats. Got a puncture flat a year ago that probably would have self-sealed if tubeless.

    If I start having issues with pinch flats or puncture flats I'll go tubeless. I think a lot of people setup tubeless because they think it's superior, but it's just another option that may or may not be called for.
    "I think a lot of people setup tubeless because they think it's superior,"
    Have you ever run tubeless ?
    It Is Far superior,
    for all kinds of conditions,
    I'm pretty sure all entry level bikes sold at bike shops all come with tubeless capable rims..
    It's not just a buzz word to help sell bikes, I will admit tubes are simple and easy to fix.
    Tubeless takes a little extra effort to set up but with so many doing it I really think anyone who has the rims for it should try it.
    How could anyone not try something this cheap and talked about by so many.
    Especially In a Plus bike.
    Even My gravel bike came with tubeless rims.

    Are there any automobiles out there these days with tubes ?
    Or motorcycles,
    My riding lawn mower had tubes.
    Really, It did, I swear:P

    I've yet to meet a rider who tried tubeless and went back to tubes but I'm sure there's a few out there..
    “I seek only the Flow”, "27.5+ Hard Tails Rock"
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  86. #86
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    Well I must have jinxed myself because after several trouble free years I got my first flat today (totally my fault) And as I was pumping up my spare tube, which thankfully was still intact, I was lamenting about this thread and dreading the extra rolling resistance and lack of suppleness I was going endure the rest of the ride. And then I collected 2 kom's on the way home.

    Fug it, I'm going back to tubes!
    I brake for stinkbugs

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    And then I collected 2 kom's on the way home.
    Getting deep in here.

    I'm assuming this is a Strava term? Now we've got silly spandex roadie talk in the mountain bike forum?

    Oh how I love what Strava has done for mountain biking.😎😲

    It's actually KOMS. King of Meat Swingers.

    The pissing contest has officially begun.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    The pissing contest has officially begun.


    No, that started on post #2.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osco View Post
    Have you ever run tubeless ? It Is Far superior, for all kinds of conditions
    I have. I agree that it can be the way to go for a lot of people in a lot of situations...but others are just making things more complicated for no good reason. Setup is usually pretty simple, but sometimes it's messy and more of a struggle than a tube would ever be. You have to keep your tires pressured and add sealant occasionally. Changing tires can be messy. If you break a spoke off at the nipple you have to re-tape and reset. All minor and manageable issues, but I try not to complicate things without reason. I'm running my pressure as low as I care to go...any less and I'll be beating up my rim. I don't have issues with pinches or punctures. What would I be gaining by going tubeless?

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by squeakymcgillicuddy View Post
    If you break a spoke off at the nipple you have to re-tape and reset.
    Retaping is an issue regardless of whether you run tubeless or not. Plus people have been running adhesive cloth rim tape for ages, and that requires you to reapply the tape carefully if you replace a spoke.

    If you hang your tire up with the sealant settled in the bottom and be careful with your rim tape, you can reuse it and minimize the fuss involved, so I wouldn't say this is a compelling argument against tubeless.

  91. #91
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    Wink It's been fun !

    When asking or commenting on the newer trends or reading the various features others have endeavored to add, upgrade or update to for any reason- safety, performance or other advantages, I've almost always closed with;
    "Glad you found it works well for you and makes the rides better, safer , faster , more comfortable, less flat tires or ..... ? "
    I truly mean that in just the same way I have my set up for the way I ride, where I live and how things work for me.

    Now, I'm realizing that closing thought as sincere and positive as it really is, sets off an Alert with some. "Oh , you don't have a dropper ? What are you NUTS ??" or the tube thing.

    It's not enough to complement these concepts or try making friendly speak when soon follows an All or Nothing concept of what's smart , what's best and most of all they suddenly know YOU so well! Where you live, how you ride, what's important to you, how much wrenching you like to do, how often you need to repair, tune or futz with your bike... How else would intelligent beings profess to be such experts on what is smart, best or worth our time doing ? They must secretly know us!

    I don't believe I've ever stated it's silly to go dropper, or tubless or anything else, I've just not done so for myself and at times, I see others commenting or 'fessing up' then comes a rash of Oprahesque Drama about some rationale, justification or reasoning that calls out all those non participants. Honestly, Sit Com tv was never done this well.
    And for gosh sakes, don't even try to diffuse or disengage from the eccentrics. Soon, anything you say or posted might be cut and pasted with words from other context placed strategically to win some points by misrepresenting what you said. I can't believe it's all as simple as a rage burning by those that have and those have-nots.
    I don't have pinch flats, I don't have tire pressure issues, punctures or finicky things that take up my time nor lose riding opportunities. I'm happy with the feel of my tires, performance, traction etc.... Where is the reasoning beyond that ? Weight ? Okay, so for the .kg cost of taking along an extra water bottle of difference or what could be a few hundred grams? Yeah, I'm good with that.
    At the same time, I understand going T L can be an easy, not too involved fix for many that have legit issue with flats. It works for ya and makes a lot of sense !!

    When that tubeless day or dropper happens for me, I might just chime in with some great things to say about the changes and even quantify it some from my own perspective. If the case be, I'll do my best to cite specific example's or sources that back up any claims I include. What I won't do is tell you what's best for you, re-juggle/post your words or make sweeping general statements that are not linked to some meaningful source or related fact.

    This is where I thank the many, many good sports here who participate in good spirit and allow us all to enjoy these forums and mountain biking in our own way, yet take the time to share information and insights regarding tires, tubes, no-tubes, droppers, variations of frame geo, handlebars, suspensions, bike frame materials etc.....
    Now let's shake it up out there! Find someone who has a different setup and go ride with them. My buddies and I are wheeling a rigid fat steel, an alum 29" h/t and steel 27.5 plus h/t. Somehow, we all get along.

    In the spirit of Sit Com TV and the little bit of fun I've had reading along this and other excitable topics, here's this;

    Next week, my start-up business takes off.
    F. U. That's right folks, Feeling Unloved or Façade Unlimited (not sure yet). We will provide a kit for those of us willing to be posers. We hadn't set out to hurt the feelings of our technologically advanced and superior brothers and sisters, but that wasn't enough. We must look the part.

    KITONE SLB 'sidewall lying b1tch' -
    Little lettering you stick on your sidewalls that speaks plain; TUBELESS TIRES. This isn't to confuse you because your tires really don't have to be tubeless, you just need others to think so.

    KITTWO TAD 'the almost dropper'-
    Hardware that make's your bike look dropper and even adds some weight to look legit. Yep, that little extra collar on the post, cable/routing fasteners and even a lever to finish the deal.
    *Warning/disclaimer- If you really do hurt yourself in the 'special stuff' department while riding a bike that pretends to be dropper ready, I will laugh.

    ~ b
    In the Middle Ages, the biggest mistake was not putting on your armor because you were 'just going down to the corner.'

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    When asking or commenting on the newer trends
    Folks have been running tubeless/droppers for well over a decade.

    “Newer trends”?

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    When asking or commenting on the newer trends or reading the various features others have endeavored to add, upgrade or update to for any reason- safety, performance or other advantages, I've almost always closed with;
    "Glad you found it works well for you and makes the rides better, safer , faster , more comfortable, less flat tires or ..... ? "
    I truly mean that in just the same way I have my set up for the way I ride, where I live and how things work for me.

    Now, I'm realizing that closing thought as sincere and positive as it really is, sets off an Alert with some. "Oh , you don't have a dropper ? What are you NUTS ??" or the tube thing.

    It's not enough to complement these concepts or try making friendly speak when soon follows an All or Nothing concept of what's smart , what's best and most of all they suddenly know YOU so well! Where you live, how you ride, what's important to you, how much wrenching you like to do, how often you need to repair, tune or futz with your bike... How else would intelligent beings profess to be such experts on what is smart, best or worth our time doing ? They must secretly know us!

    I don't believe I've ever stated it's silly to go dropper, or tubless or anything else, I've just not done so for myself and at times, I see others commenting or 'fessing up' then comes a rash of Oprahesque Drama about some rationale, justification or reasoning that calls out all those non participants. Honestly, Sit Com tv was never done this well.
    And for gosh sakes, don't even try to diffuse or disengage from the eccentrics. Soon, anything you say or posted might be cut and pasted with words from other context placed strategically to win some points by misrepresenting what you said. I can't believe it's all as simple as a rage burning by those that have and those have-nots.
    I don't have pinch flats, I don't have tire pressure issues, punctures or finicky things that take up my time nor lose riding opportunities. I'm happy with the feel of my tires, performance, traction etc.... Where is the reasoning beyond that ? Weight ? Okay, so for the .kg cost of taking along an extra water bottle of difference or what could be a few hundred grams? Yeah, I'm good with that.
    At the same time, I understand going T L can be an easy, not too involved fix for many that have legit issue with flats. It works for ya and makes a lot of sense !!

    When that tubeless day or dropper happens for me, I might just chime in with some great things to say about the changes and even quantify it some from my own perspective. If the case be, I'll do my best to cite specific example's or sources that back up any claims I include. What I won't do is tell you what's best for you, re-juggle/post your words or make sweeping general statements that are not linked to some meaningful source or related fact.

    This is where I thank the many, many good sports here who participate in good spirit and allow us all to enjoy these forums and mountain biking in our own way, yet take the time to share information and insights regarding tires, tubes, no-tubes, droppers, variations of frame geo, handlebars, suspensions, bike frame materials etc.....
    Now let's shake it up out there! Find someone who has a different setup and go ride with them. My buddies and I are wheeling a rigid fat steel, an alum 29" h/t and steel 27.5 plus h/t. Somehow, we all get along.

    In the spirit of Sit Com TV and the little bit of fun I've had reading along this and other excitable topics, here's this;

    Next week, my start-up business takes off.
    F. U. That's right folks, Feeling Unloved or Façade Unlimited (not sure yet). We will provide a kit for those of us willing to be posers. We hadn't set out to hurt the feelings of our technologically advanced and superior brothers and sisters, but that wasn't enough. We must look the part.

    KITONE SLB 'sidewall lying b1tch' -
    Little lettering you stick on your sidewalls that speaks plain; TUBELESS TIRES. This isn't to confuse you because your tires really don't have to be tubeless, you just need others to think so.

    KITTWO TAD 'the almost dropper'-
    Hardware that make's your bike look dropper and even adds some weight to look legit. Yep, that little extra collar on the post, cable/routing fasteners and even a lever to finish the deal.
    *Warning/disclaimer- If you really do hurt yourself in the 'special stuff' department while riding a bike that pretends to be dropper ready, I will laugh.

    ~ b
    LOL, I ain't reading all that....

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by croatiansensation View Post
    LOL, I ain't reading all that....
    I said the same thing.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillaroida View Post
    Folks have been running tubeless/droppers for well over a decade.

    “Newer trends”?
    Perfect example of what he was talking about.

    You must be one of them.
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honda Guy View Post
    Retaping is an issue regardless of whether you run tubeless or not. Plus people have been running adhesive cloth rim tape for ages, and that requires you to reapply the tape carefully if you replace a spoke.

    If you hang your tire up with the sealant settled in the bottom and be careful with your rim tape, you can reuse it and minimize the fuss involved, so I wouldn't say this is a compelling argument against tubeless.
    I'm not arguing against tubeless. Just pointing out that it's a little messier and a little more complicated, and doesn't always provide a benefit. Given the choice, I'd rather replace spoke nipples on a tubed wheel. No big deal, but if you can run tubes without pinches or punctures I can't see a reason not to.

    I've never tried re-using tubeless tape...is it usually still sticky enough? Would you say that works most of the time?

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Perfect example of what he was talking about.

    You must be one of them.
    How is asking a question a perfect example of what he was talking about?

    His basic premise is flawed and colors pretty much all of his assumptions about the answers that he has been given.

  98. #98
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    97 posts about tubes vs tubeless.

    Seriously, you guys don't have anything better to talk about?

    How about helmets, we should talk about helmets, like should I wear one, if I do, is okay to only wear one when going downhill? I just get so hot climbing...

  99. #99
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    4,415
    Wait, not helment, lets talk about gloves, like are gloves important? Do tires choices determine glove use, long vs short fingers? How often shoudlI change my gloves? Can I wear women's gloves if they fit or will it make my penis shrink?

  100. #100
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,415
    Wait, wait , lets talk about gloves, like are gloves important? Do tires choices determine glove use, long vs short fingers? How often shoudlI change my gloves? Can I wear women's gloves if they fit or will it make my penis shrink?

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